Red Dot, 9mm, MBC 125 gr SmallBall load advice


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1KPerDay
October 21, 2011, 02:09 PM
I've searched several sources. The older alliant info I found has a 125 grain lrn load with 4.5 grains red dot and an OAL of 1.15.

I was thinking of starting at 4.0 gr red dot and work up to 4.5, keeping the OAL around 1.1ish and not exceeding 1.15 (assuming that chambers in my pistols reliably. Anyone see any potential issues with that?

thanks :cool:

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bds
October 21, 2011, 02:22 PM
1KPerDay, SmallBall has more rounded nose profile to increase the length of bearing surface and will require shorter than typical OAL of more pointed nose bullets. If your barrel has longer leade, OAL out to 1.125" will work, but if your barrel has shorter leade, then you may need to use shorter than 1.100" OAL. Do a barrel drop test and feed/chamber test from the magazine to confirm.

Although my pistols/barrels will feed out to 1.125" OAL, I typically load to 1.100" OAL to work in most other pistols/barrels.

I did range test with MBC 125 gr RN (SmallBall) and Promo using Red Dot load data on this thread (Alliant's website states to use Promo with Red Dot load data by weight) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6480163#post6480163

125 gr RN (Missouri Bullet - SmallBall) and Glock 27 with Lone Wolf barrel:

3.8/4.0 gr Promo with 1.09"/1.10" OAL:

9mm Promo loads were all accurate. Recoil was firm/snappy with spent cases landing behind me and to the right.

7-10 yard groups averaged 1"-2"
15 yard groups averaged 2"-3"

4.2 gr Promo at 1.08"/1.10" OAL:

5 yard groups averaged 1" with one 3/4" group
7 yard groups averaged 1.5"

kingmt
October 21, 2011, 02:24 PM
Nope. You may want to start at 4 &work down first tho. I would anyways.

bds
October 21, 2011, 02:36 PM
Nope. You may want to start at 4 &work down first tho.
Why?

2004 Alliant load data (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=2004%20alliant%20load%20data&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fglarp.atk.com%2F2004%2F2004Catalogs%2F2004AlliantPowderSM.pdf&ei=d62hTue-As7XiAKphIxN&usg=AFQjCNHnWLp5LTU0YIrdLKjtAjtiKft_jg&cad=rja) shows 4.5 gr of Red Dot as max for 125 gr lead bullet.

10% reduction would be 4.1 gr as start charge. I did the work up from 3.8 gr using Promo as I was using shorter OAL of 1.080"/1.100".

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151296&stc=1&d=1319218527

1KPerDay
October 21, 2011, 02:43 PM
Thank you very much, as always. :cool:

kingmt
October 21, 2011, 09:49 PM
Why?

Because it burns so clean & works so good that I bet he may like something around 3.5gr or even less.

Has nothing to do with max load or I wouldn't have said he wouldn't have a problem with his plan. Since I said work down it couldn't envolve saftey ether.

1KPerDay
October 22, 2011, 02:17 AM
Maybe I'll start at 3.6 or 3.7 and go up from there. :)

kingmt
October 22, 2011, 07:35 AM
I don't know how strong the recoil spring is in yours is why I said work down but I bet 3.6 would still be fine.

1KPerDay
October 24, 2011, 02:52 PM
Well after charging a few at 4.0 grains I don't think I'll be going up from there... 4 grains barely leaves room for the bullet, and I'd wager the bottom of the 125 grain LRNs I"m loading is touching the powder.

I think I'll back up and start at 3.5 or 3.6 as you suggest. I double-checked and weighed each charge to make sure but 4.0 looks to be quite a bit in these cases... I imagine 4.5 might actually be a compressed charge and I'm not going to try it. :uhoh:

The OAL on the first few I had set at 1.10... I may try some at 1.15 but as BDS says they are kinda short pills.

If I eventually get some Promo when I run out of Red Dot I may try higher than 4.0 grains (as Promo has the same burn characteristics per charge weight as Red Dot but is not as bulky, so the charge volume will be less, at least that's what I understand) but in the meantime no way.

BTW it seems my initial research and the forum's help in determining that Red Dot is one of the bulkier powders by weight and would help prevent double charges was correct... it would be impossible to miss a double charge of red dot in 9mm; it would overflow the case.

bds
October 25, 2011, 04:08 AM
1KPerDay, good point as Promo and Red Dot may not fill the case as same (Alliant just says to use the Red Dot load data by weight for Promo). Keep in mind that Promo/Red Dot are bulky flake powders that "fluff" quite a bit and will settle.

Well, I did some measuring of Promo and MBC 125 gr RN (SmallBall (http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=51&category=5&secondary=8&keywords=)) and it looks good. Due to shorter/rounder profile of the bullet that increases the bearing surface length meant to better stabilize the bullet in barrel/flight, using the shorter OAL of 1.100" here are the break down:

OAL - 1.100"
Length of resized case - 0.750"
Bullet length - 0.565"

That means 0.565" - (1.100"-0.750") = 0.215" of bullet base gets seated inside the case neck. The picture below of 4.0 gr of Promo inside the case shows the powder is 0.260" below top (and 4.4 gr is 0.220" below top). So, 4.0-4.4 gr of Promo should be fine with 1.100" OAL using MBC 125 gr RN (SmallBall) to not compress the powder. If 3.8-4.0 gr charges work for your pistol, it produced accurate shot groups for me.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151536&stc=1&d=1319526474

evan price
October 25, 2011, 04:24 AM
4.0 of Promo and 125-LRN works great for me @ 1.125" oal.

bds
October 25, 2011, 04:24 AM
I'd wager the bottom of the 115 grain LRNs I"m loading is touching the powder.
The OP said 125 gr but if you are using even shorter 115 gr bullet, I won't worry about the bullet touching/compressing the powder.

BTW it seems my initial research and the forum's help in determining that Red Dot is one of the bulkier powders by weight and would help prevent double charges was correct... it would be impossible to miss a double charge of red dot in 9mm; it would overflow the case.
Definitely! Even the double charge of lighter 3.8 gr would overflow the case. :D

evan price
October 25, 2011, 04:30 AM
double tapped, sry.

1KPerDay
October 25, 2011, 01:02 PM
Sorry, you're correct... I"m using 125 grain MBC smallball. My fingers default to 115 when talking about 9mm. :D

Thanks for all the info.

1KPerDay
October 25, 2011, 01:05 PM
I could also use your input on this issue.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7678825#post7678825

bds
October 25, 2011, 03:19 PM
When we resize spent cases, inside diameter of the case will be smaller than the diameter of the bullets.

During seating of the bullets, this will cause slight "bulging" of brass at the base of the bullet, which is normal and indicates good neck tension with the seated bullet.

In reference to taper crimp and chambering, I usually find measurement at the bulge same or smaller than the taper crimp I use (.020" + diameter of the bullet), so if I have any failure to fully chamber issues, I will look at the taper crimp/OAL as chambers are usually flared towards the ramp end.

1KPerDay
October 25, 2011, 03:25 PM
When you say you look at taper crimp, do you mean you increase the crimp? Do you think mine will be a problem as is?

bds
October 25, 2011, 03:36 PM
I am kinda OCD for accuracy and will take whatever advantage can apply to my loads. With taper crimp, I want the most amount of taper crimp that will chamber freely to seal the case neck with the chamber when the powder ignites.

If .020" over the diameter of the bullet will chamber well, that's the maximum taper crimp I will apply. If this amount of taper crimp won't fully chamber the finished round, I will apply more taper crimp until it does (of course, this is taking into consideration that OAL of round is not hitting the rifling).

1KPerDay
October 25, 2011, 06:05 PM
Cool. Thanks again.

1KPerDay
November 23, 2011, 02:53 AM
Follow up for those interested:

9mm Parabellum Mixed brass/CCI SPP/Missouri Bullet Company 125 grain “Small Ball” LRN. Sized .358-.359. Loaded in Lee Classic Turret, Lee deluxe dies. Brass/primers all look good. COAL 1.10”. No malfunctions. Smoky indoors but no leading to speak of.
All groups fired from 30 feet, seated from an improvised rest.

SIG P226 (barrel slugged .357)
3.6. gr. Red Dot. Light recoil. Groups (subtracting bullet diameter) averaged 2.465 (4 groups)
3.8 grains Red Dot. Nice recoil. 1.61” avg. (4 groups)
4.0 grains Red Dot. Stronger recoil. 2.14” avg. (3 groups)

Beretta 92FS (barrel slugged .357)
3.6. gr. Red Dot. Light recoil. Groups (subtracting bullet diameter) averaged 2.85” (4 groups)
3.8 gr. Red Dot. Nice recoil. 2.24” avg. (4 groups)
4.0 gr. Red Dot. Firm recoil. 2.84 avg. (3 groups)

popper
November 24, 2011, 02:29 PM
Check your chamber for taper when using the MBC smallball, some are more tapered than others. That will possible change the OAL and amount of crimp, for proper HS.

1KPerDay
December 15, 2011, 01:28 AM
How does one check the chamber for taper?

bds
December 15, 2011, 01:57 AM
9mm ... Missouri Bullet Company 125 grain “Small Ball” LRN. Sized .358-.359 ... barrel slugged .357
I think you may have gotten some wrong sized bullets. I grabbed several random "SmallBall" bullets out of two different boxes and they were all sized .356" using both of my calipers. But if your barrels' groove diameters are .357" then I would say you got the right sized bullets! :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154798&stc=1&d=1323928577

1KPerDay
December 15, 2011, 02:09 AM
Yep, they work out of my pistols. I contacted MBC and they say they think they may have sized a batch at .358" for a particular request and maybe got them mixed up. They were going to send me a prepaid return shipment label and ship me some .356 ones but after I slugged my bores at .357" I told MBC I'd like to keep the .358 ones and I'd be happy to pay for any replacements that had already been sent.

I never heard back after that and never got shipped the replacements, which is fine by me as these look like they're going to work fine, at least in my pistols. :)

bds
December 15, 2011, 02:19 AM
Your case should serve as an example to many to slug their barrels first BEFORE ordering lead bullets as shooting typical sized lead bullets in oversized barrels will cause leading and decreased accuracy ... even keyholing. ;)

Glad things worked out for you.

My PT145's barrel is oversized at .456"+ and I was getting leading with erratic shot groups even at 7 yards. Not sure if you can get .457"-.458" sized bullets, but I wanted to have one sized bullets for all my 45 pistols. Fortunately for me, softer MBC 12 BHN (Bullseye #1 (http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=56&category=5&secondary=13&keywords=)) bullet bases deformed enough (even for the light 4.0 gr Promo plinking load for 200 gr SWC) to seal with the oversized barrel and accuracy returned.

popper
December 15, 2011, 12:28 PM
Flare an empty case a little at a time and do the drop test in the bl. When it goes into full battery, you found it. XD is tapered, Glock doesn't appear to be. I don't know about others. bds has good info. Also, rotate the case when seating to try to keep the CB straight.

ohrings
February 7, 2012, 05:20 PM
The Lyman book (new 49th edition) does show red Dot to start at 3.o grains with a maximum of 3.9 grains. The Pressure listed at the 3.9 grains is 32,000 while the 3 grain is 25,100. I think I will start at about 3.4 grains and work up from there up to 3.9. I'll take them to the range and see how they work. I will take a look at the primers as I go along to check for pressure.

Thank you guys!!

I appreciate it

Stumper
February 7, 2012, 06:26 PM
In the 9mmx19 seating depth/available combustion space easily makes more difference than a 10% charge weight change or a move up or down in bullet weight. Lyman's 49 shows a deep seated 120 gr RN for their charges and pressures. 4.1 gr Red Dot under 124 gr Berry's TCFP seated to 1.070 OAL is not excessive and chambers in barrels with no leade. The same charge under a double radius 125 lead RN seated for 1.152 OAl is a light load that functions most pistols but drops brass at your feet.
ALWAYS check the seating depth of your proposed load in the 9. If you are encroaching into the powder space LESS then you have lots of room in your work up. If you are taking up more space than the tested loads you need to be very cautious. Light compression of fluffy powders like Red Dot is not really a concern provided the load is appropriate.

jim000711
March 3, 2012, 09:05 AM
Missouri Bullet, 125 grain SWC.(Brinell 18, .356) Maybe one in four or one in five keyhole. I have tried varying COL. Also played with crimp.

Does anyone have a powder and COL for these 125 SWC that they like? Also I see the comment "slug the barrel." Can someone explain how that is done?

bds
March 3, 2012, 01:59 PM
The Lyman book (new 49th edition) does show red Dot to start at 3.o grains with a maximum of 3.9 grains. The Pressure listed at the 3.9 grains is 32,000 while the 3 grain is 25,100. I think I will start at about 3.4 grains and work up from there up to 3.9. I'll take them to the range and see how they work. I will take a look at the primers as I go along to check for pressure.
Good thinking ... better to use lower load data for powder work up when more than one source is available and many on THR will recommend using multiple load data.

Lyman #49:
120 gr LRN, CCI SP, 4" barrel, 1.065" OAL - Start 3.0 (919 fps) 25,100 CUP - Max 3.9 gr (1140 fps) 32,000 CUP

2004 Alliant load data (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=2004%20alliant%20load%20data&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fglarp.atk.com%2F2004%2F2004Catalogs%2F2004AlliantPowderSM.pdf&ei=wlxST6OzL-aaiQLknNS0Bg&usg=AFQjCNHnWLp5LTU0YIrdLKjtAjtiKft_jg&cad=rja):
125 gr Lead (bullet nose not specified), Winchester SP, 4" barrel, 1.150" OAL - Start (Not listed) - Max 4.5 gr (1145 fps) 32,000 PSI

When I initially conducted my Promo load development using Red Dot load data, I referenced both sources as well using 18 BHN Missouri 125 gr LRN (SmallBall), Winchester SP primer, 1.080"-1.125" OAL and Glock 17/22/27 (factory and Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels).

Since I was using components/dimensions closer to the 2004 Alliant load data, I went 10% below the published max for 1.125" OAL loads (~4.2 gr) and .3 gr below that for the shorter 1.080"-1.100" OAL loads (~3.8 gr). I use "around" ~3.8/~4.2 because the large flake Promo powder charges vary by .2 gr+ in my Pro Auto Disk.

At the shorter 1.080"-1.100" OAL, I have found ~3.8 - ~4.0 gr of Promo to be very accurate and reliable in my Glock 22/27 with LW conversion barrels. The loads allow for tight double-taps at 10 yards off hand for me.

Keep in mind that Promo is a large flake powder (larger flakes than Unique) and will meter with variance in most powder measures (.2 gr+ for me in Pro Auto Disk) - so I suggest using lower load data sources for powder work up. Your 3.4 gr charge could actually be more like 3.6-3.8 gr and I could not stress the importance of check weights (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/212586/lyman-shooters-weight-check-set) more. ;)

Despite the powder charge variations like Unique, I am growing more fond of Promo as it produces my #2 favorite 45ACP load for now (200 gr SWC with 4.0 gr of Promo) that is very accurate with mild recoil.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152505&stc=1&d=1320990449
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151344&stc=1&d=1319305687

Missouri Bullet, 125 grain SWC.(Brinell 18, .356) Maybe one in four or one in five keyhole. I have tried varying COL. Also played with crimp.

Also I see the comment "slug the barrel." Can someone explain how that is done?

Jim, keyholing of lead bullets has been discussed in several threads and was attributed to oversized barrels (larger than .355" groove diameter) for use with .356" sized lead bullets, especially with insufficient powder charges that failed to deform the bullet base enough to provide proper bullet-to-barrel seal (obturation). Without the proper bullet-to-barrel fit (typically bullet diameter sized .001" larger than the groove diameter of the barrel), the bullet base will fail to grip the rifling to rotate and may skip down the barrel. Without enough bullet rotation in flight to stabilize the bullet, the bullet will start to tumble and keyhole on target.

You can read on how to slug your barrel here - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=639467

Here's a video of how to slug a barrel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR_WiL8Dkgw

Depending on how much your barrel is oversized (.356" - .357"+), you may either need to increase the powder charge or use a larger diameter sized bullet or both. If you need larger sized bullets (.357"/.358") contact Missouri Bullet (http://www.missouribullet.com/faq.php#special_orders).
Can I request special sizing or can I change the type of alloy I want used?
Yes. There is a minimum order of 1,000 bullets and a $10.00 set up fee for special orders. These bullets require a special set up and will be made as time permits.



Does anyone have a powder and COL for these 125 SWC that they like?
If you look at the comparison pictures, 125 gr SWC provides very substantial bullet base that gets seated deeper in the case neck. I found 1.045" OAL to work well for pistols/barrels I have used but because the bullet seats deeper in the case, when I conducted my powder work up, I used .2-.3 gr below published start/max charges.

Current load data from Hodgdon - http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
125 gr Lead CN W231/HP-38 Diameter .356" OAL 1.125" Start 3.9 gr (1009 fps) 25,700 CUP - Max 4.4 gr (1086 fps) 31,200 CUP
For MBC 125 gr SWC bullet, I referenced 125 gr load data for lead Cone Nose and conducted my work up from 3.6 gr to 4.1 gr of W231/HP-38 using 1.045" OAL. Even at start charge, accuracy was good and mid-high range loads produced little to almost no lube smoke out of .355" groove diameter Lone Wolf barrels, which indicated to me that I had very good bullet-to-barrel seal for minimal high pressure gas leakage around the bullet.

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