308 vs 30-30


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Austin97
October 21, 2011, 02:44 PM
Want to know which is better for brush country.

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Robert
October 21, 2011, 02:46 PM
Howdah Pistol

valnar
October 21, 2011, 02:53 PM
What is a mile away from the brush on any sides?

mljdeckard
October 21, 2011, 02:59 PM
I consider the 30-30 an open sights cartridge. If I were in brush country, and I knew I wasn't going to use the rifle for anything else, I would use a 30-30. My perception is also that pretty much all 30-30s are saddle guns, which you might lash to your saddle horn, and they might take more abuse than a rifle you just carry. I was mocked by my old cowboy friends for buying precision bolt rifles, because I would never use them to pack and hunt cowboy style.

My alternative method to have it both ways is a carbine with peep-through mounts. I have seen some guys rent their clothing over such a blasphemous idea, but my dad's old Remington 760 in .257 Roberts, with peep-through mounts and a vanilla scope gives me a gun for brush or open country. Just sayin'.

heeler
October 21, 2011, 03:06 PM
The .308 is one of my very favorite deer cartridges.
I currently hunt on two different ranches.
One is a wooded area in which the shots are almost never over 100 yards and truthfully less than that more times than not.
There I carry my trusty Marlin 336 in 30-30 and it has been death on hogs and deer everytime.
When I go to the brush country of south Texas I usually have my .308 Remington Mohawk carbine or one of my .243's because there are plenty of places that you can shoot a very long way if your inclined to and the 30-30 is out of it's element there more times than not.

mgmorden
October 21, 2011, 03:07 PM
Either is fine. I own two .30-30's and a .308 and have hunted with all 3 rifles.

The concept of a "brush" gun where you're talking about literally shooting through brush is mostly a myth. A hit on a limb or the like will deflect any bullet. Brush or not, you still need a clear shot. Now, in the brush your visibility range will be limited, and in that regard both will perform fine at those ranges.

.30-30 will recoil a little less. .308 is more versatile if you reload.

And despite what people say, if you want to mount a scope .30-30's work fine with them :) (they work fine with irons too if you're inclined to use them). My Marlin 336 has always worn them, and has never spent any time inside of a saddle (heck I've never even set foot on a horse in my life - just have no interest :)). You don't have to be retro for the .30-30 to still be a good hunting choice.

jmr40
October 21, 2011, 03:30 PM
While either will do the job at close range the 308 will do a lot more without giving up anything to the 30-30. Basically the 308 will do anything the 30-30 will do, but the reverse is not true.

jhnrckr
October 21, 2011, 03:44 PM
i have heard time and time again that the 30-30 is the best round for busting through brush. My interpretation of brush busting is the 30-30 wont be as easily deflected by grass, bushes, twigs etc as compared to some other round. I am not sure if there is any science to that but I keep hearing it over and over.

MrSpiffy
October 21, 2011, 04:02 PM
jhnrckr, the 30-30 lever guns tend to be better in brush because they're typically a shorter firearm. They're nice and compact for wandering through brush and trees. Bolt-action guns tend to be a little longer for better accuracy (There are exceptions on both sides.) But, I highly doubt that being a good brush gun has anything to do with the bullet going through brush any better than any other cartridge.

Tadracket
October 21, 2011, 04:06 PM
You say "Brush Gun" I assume you mean close quarters. 30/30 all the way. Best brush gun ever made. Now if you want to make that game larger than deer size and still be brush, go with a 45/70.
Those are a hoot and a holler to shoot.

Cosmoline
October 21, 2011, 04:17 PM
Remember there's a difference between the firearm and the cartridge. That gets confusing in this case when 99% of the time people associate the .30 WCF with light leverguns and the .308 with heavier bolt actions. But there are bolt action .30-30's and lever action .308's.

If we're talking cartridges, the .30-30 is a notch less powerful than the .308 and has fewer options in bullet weight for factory loads. But it will recoil a bit less and have a bit less blast and flash. The .30-30 is also restricted to FP or RN for most factory loads, which limits its long range effectiveness. But the leverevolutions have helped in this respect.

303tom
October 21, 2011, 07:33 PM
Remember there's a difference between the firearm and the cartridge. That gets confusing in this case when 99% of the time people associate the .30 WCF with light leverguns and the .308 with heavier bolt actions. But there are bolt action .30-30's and lever action .308's.

If we're talking cartridges, the .30-30 is a notch less powerful than the .308 and has fewer options in bullet weight for factory loads. But it will recoil a bit less and have a bit less blast and flash. The .30-30 is also restricted to FP or RN for most factory loads, which limits its long range effectiveness. But the plastic tip designs have helped in this respect.
That works for me, heck they are both 7.62x51`s, just one is a R.

CONNEX 3300
October 21, 2011, 07:43 PM
I have both and use both in the brush. I personally prefer the .308 but the 30-30 is fine. Depends on which guns you get them in, what animals you hunt, and how far you mean by brush. I have a marlin 336 with open sights that I used on hogs with great success, it was a good gun. But then I "upgraded" to a converted saiga .308 that works even better.
If you have a long heavy single shot 30-30 with a scope vs. a short lever action or semi auto .308, the .308 is better. But a lever 3030 is better than a long scoped bolt .308

Mostly depends on what the gun is. Not so much the caliber

DM~
October 21, 2011, 07:49 PM
While either will do the job at close range the 308 will do a lot more without giving up anything to the 30-30. Basically the 308 will do anything the 30-30 will do, but the reverse is not true.

I agree 100% and will add,

There's NO SUCH THING as the 30-30 shooting better through brush than any other similar cartridge. ALL bullets can and ARE deflected, even by a single twig.

So, buy a 30-30 because you like the gun it's chambered in, not because the 30-30 is better at "anything" over a 308 Win...

DM

kozak6
October 21, 2011, 08:42 PM
What's the longest range you think you might take a shot at?

The .30-30 is good out to about 150 yards.

rcmodel
October 21, 2011, 08:52 PM
the 30-30 wont be as easily deflected by grass, bushes, twigs etc as compared to some other round. I am not sure if there is any science to that but I keep hearing it over and over. Used to be an old wives tail.
Now it's an Internet rumor.

In any case, it isn't true at all.

rc

rule303
October 21, 2011, 08:55 PM
At must "brush" ranges, the caliber isn't going to make a big difference. A deer shot with a 30/30 will be just as dead as one shot with a .308. Use whichever rifle suits you best. I have more than a few deer rifles, but if I am going to hunt walkabout style in dense woods, I will carry my open sighted Winchester 94. Nothing is as nice to carry as a light, short lever gun. They also point very instinctively, more like a shotgun than a rifle.

d2wing
October 21, 2011, 09:25 PM
Between a BLR .308 and a 94 30-30. I take the 30-30 even though the .308 is the better cartridge, because the .308 kicks much harder and is not needed at the range a 30-30 is good. However if there is even a chance of a 200 yard or longer shot, the .308 is much better especially in a light bolt action. In other words it depends.

Cosmoline
October 21, 2011, 09:29 PM
Maybe split the difference with a Savage 99 in .300 Savage.

BMF500
October 21, 2011, 09:33 PM
The .308 is more versitile and if you must have a lever gun, you can find them in .308 too.

montanaoffroader
October 21, 2011, 09:46 PM
If you are only going to have the one rifle, I would go with the .308 just because it is more versatile. More ammo options, more power downrange. The .30-30 is a fine cartridge, it just doesn't have quite as much oomph as the .308.

If you own more than one rifle, then one of them should be a .30-30. I have shot most of my deer at less than 100 yards, and mostly with a Marlin .30-30. I like the rifle because it is reasonably light and handles very well.

Best of luck with your choice. :)

Frozen North
October 21, 2011, 09:47 PM
A lever is a good brush gun because they are quick shooting and fast handling. In real brush and swamp country, it is common to come very near to stepping on a deer before they jump and run. You may get a second, or even third shot off if you can feed the rounds to the gun and get back on target fast enough. Iron sights and red dots are a must.

That being said, my next brush gun will be a Saiga .308 with a 16'' barrel. That's even quicker and more handy than a lever. :D

The only gun I know of that will really mow brush and still be somewhat accurate is a 12 gauge shooting heavy slugs. Several guys I hunt with use a pump shotgun on the drives.

Purgatory
October 21, 2011, 09:50 PM
That works for me, heck they are both 7.62x51`s, just one is a R.


Can anyone give the cartridge measurement of the .30-30, please?

.30-06 = 7.62x63

.308 = 7.62x51

.30-30 = 7.62x ?

Just sparked my curiosity is all.

Here is a pic of the .223, .30-30 and .308 side by side.

http://www.buckhuntersblog.com/winchester-30-30-americas-deer-cartridge

Robert
October 21, 2011, 09:55 PM
Can anyone give the cartridge measurement of the .30-30, please?
It is pretty much 7.62x51R. Yes, that is correct, 7.62x51R

788Ham
October 22, 2011, 01:09 AM
Hey Cosmoline, you beat me to it pard. That is what I was going to suggest also, that `99 might be a couple inches longer, but the smackdown is better in the .300 cartridge than the 30-30!

Eric F
October 22, 2011, 02:17 AM
Come on folks! This isnt a question on caliber. Either one would work fine, its a question of the gun. Brush guns need to be short, light would be nice but not exactly necessary.

303tom
October 22, 2011, 10:09 AM
Come on folks! This isnt a question on caliber. Either one would work fine, its a question of the gun. Brush guns need to be short, light would be nice but not exactly necessary.
You can get any of them in a carbine !

jmr40
October 22, 2011, 10:40 AM
Yea, there are far more short lightweight bolt actions than there are levers. In fact I cannot think of a single short, lightweight levergun currently being offered. Most have 20"+ barrels and weigh more unscoped than any of my bolt guns with a scope and mounts on them.

Most folks have an image in their heads of lever actons as lightweight fast shooting guns. In reality they are one of the heavier guns made and almost the slowest in rapid, aimed fire.

Mike1234567
October 22, 2011, 10:40 AM
Some interesting reading at the link below. Read the page from the bottom up because that's the order in which the poll results follow.

Report On a Poll For Which Is the Best White Tail Cartridge (http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/20514/Shooting+Gear)

Fiv3r
October 22, 2011, 10:51 AM
Another vote for "it's the gun not the caliber". I do not question that that .308 hits harder and has more bullet options.

However, I am a lefty and poor. My go-to brush gun/truck gun/camping gun is a Marlin 336 in 30-30. The reason being that 30-30 levers are easier and cheaper than .308 levers, and I don't like mucking with a right handed bolt if I don't have to. Bolts are slow and cumbersome for me to shoot unless I am at a bench rest.

For my purposes and ranges, a 30-30 works just fine. I can afford the gun, I can afford the ammo, and I can operate the firearm quickly and effectively.

hardluk1
October 22, 2011, 11:24 AM
I used i old rem 788 in .308 in the swamps of florida when young. Still use it when range is short today, I have a 2 to 7 power scope on it and that does aid in picking a line thru brush many times. I have killed deer at 20 feet and at 150 yards down a creek bottom that might not have been done with open sites. You can get today a 16" and 18" barrels on bolt rifles but even a 20" can still be a short rifle. A marlin 336 with a 20" barrel is 39" long. If you want a short rifle get a H&R in a big bore. and I have never short rifle more than one time at game.

Wished i had bought a remington 18" barreled 308 pump years ago. It has every thing you could want on a close range rifle. Fast action, compact, free float barrel and more options in cartridges to pick from.

1goodshot
October 22, 2011, 11:44 AM
What about a 308 marlin?

Purgatory
October 22, 2011, 11:52 AM
I've heard it defined before, but have forgotten and can't find anything on it at the moment.

Without straying too far from the OP, what does the 'R' mean in the 7.62x51R?

Amazing to me that the metric measurement is the same when the casing looks so different, besides the length.

I know the 7.62 is the .30 cal projectile, but what is the 51R?

Is it just a slightly different powder measurement?

Robert
October 22, 2011, 11:53 AM
51 is the length expressed in mm. R stands for rimmed. If you look at any R or rimmed case you will clearly see the difference.

The length is basicly the same but the shoulders are vastly different as is the neck and taper. And the rimmed base makes it look vastly different as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_NATO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

sKunkT
October 22, 2011, 11:58 AM
Most often, I use a bolt action youth model .243 with a 1.5- 4x scope for deer hunting. It's light and easy to maneuver. Shooting into brush isn't reliable with any caliber, but shooting in between brush is feasible. I also have a 30-06 which works great, but it don't kill them any deader.

Of the two you mention, either is fine. I shot a deer in the thick woods last year with my muzzleloader with a 28" barrel. It seems you don't need a short barreled quick repeater to get the job done.

Dylon Fisher
December 30, 2011, 11:07 PM
I don't know why everybody thinks .30-30s are just lever. I got a bolt .30-30. I plan on gettin a 308 soon.

BrocLuno
December 31, 2011, 12:00 AM
I own both calibers in easy handling lever guns. The 308 is in an old Savage 99 with a 3x9 scope and the 30-30 is in a Marlin with a fixed 4 power scope. They are both fine. The 308 will reach out there a bit better. The Marlin is a tad (very small tad) easier to hand carry as the receiver is a bit thinner so it's easier to one hand.

If I could only have one, it would be the Savage 99. But, since I can have more than one, I do :) I like shooting either. I've never found there to be a problem with ammo selection or availability. The Marlin is easier to clean.

I'd get which ever is more comfortable to shoulder and shoot. The deer will die either way as long as you hit the vitals. Probably more deer killed with 30-30 than any other single caliber in the last 120 years or so. I'd say it's a proven platform :)

helotaxi
December 31, 2011, 12:15 AM
It is pretty much 7.62x51R. Yes, that is correct, 7.62x51RActually that would be the .307 Winchester. It is literally a rimmed .308 Win (made to fit in a lever gun).

Lateck
December 31, 2011, 12:28 AM
For what the OP wants I would say a .30-30 lever carbine for a short fast handling gun. I have a Mossberg 464 carbine that's nice and short. Marlin makes a few too.

Another good rifle in the .308 would be the Ruger GSR scout rifle. A nice quick rifle with a lot of possibilities.


Lateck,

303tom
December 31, 2011, 12:58 AM
I have both & they both have there place............

Eb1
December 31, 2011, 05:52 AM
.307 Winchester. Find one of those.

madcratebuilder
December 31, 2011, 06:16 AM
A "brush gun" is not about shooting "through" brush but about a short, easy to maneuver rifle that's easy to carry through brush and heavy forested areas.

Most game encounters when hunting heavy brush are less than 50yds, a 30-30 lever gun is my choice.

helotaxi
December 31, 2011, 07:29 AM
.307 Winchester. Find one of those.The problem with the .307 Win is that the rifles it was chambered in were short of action. The .308 Marlin was developed specifically to get similar performance with a better bullet from a normal .30-30 sized action. There is a pretty significant difference between the FTX bullets meant for the .30-30 and the .308MX. The .307Win can use the .30-30 version, but not the .308MX version, and still function through the magazine. Not a huge deal for a true brush gun, but for someone wanting a more flexible rifle with longer legs, it's something to consider. That said, my .308MX Marlin is a basket case. I couldn't recommend one at this point.

Eb1
December 31, 2011, 07:53 AM
I wouldn't use a FTX in a .307 anyway.

helotaxi
December 31, 2011, 07:55 AM
^^^Why not?

Eb1
December 31, 2011, 08:13 AM
Because as you said. The .307 can use the 30-30 version and not the .308 MX version. Being that the .307 is equal to a .308 I think it would open to soon.
I said in another post that we have loaded Speer 170 grain FN meant for 30-30s using IMR4064 in .30-06 for a poor mans Ballistic Tip, and also for youths in the family we'd load them down to around 2450 fps. Nevertheless I think there are better bullets than the FTX design. i.e. Not a fan of Hornady bullets in .30 caliber.

03Shadowbob
December 31, 2011, 08:23 AM
Cosmoline,
Kinda what I did but I went with a 35Remington. In the brush, a lever action is very quick on target and handles great. A semi-auto carbine could be better than a lever gun though.

Eb1
December 31, 2011, 08:24 AM
My father use to use a M1 Carbine as a deer stalking companion.

303tom
December 31, 2011, 10:18 AM
Because as you said. The .307 can use the 30-30 version and not the .308 MX version. Being that the .307 is equal to a .308 I think it would open to soon.
I said in another post that we have loaded Speer 170 grain FN meant for 30-30s using IMR4064 in .30-06 for a poor mans Ballistic Tip, and also for youths in the family we'd load them down to around 2450 fps. Nevertheless I think there are better bullets than the FTX design. i.e. Not a fan of Hornady bullets in .30 caliber.
Really the .307 Winchester, the .307 is basically a rimmed version of the .308 Winchester cartridge with thicker case walls. The .30-30 all together different, but they three of them can use the same bullet.....

Eb1
December 31, 2011, 11:57 AM
The FTX for the .308 MX is longer if I recall. This leaves to little case to hold powder in the 30-30. I believe that Hornady even mentions not for 30-30. Yes, they are .308 in caliber. So you're right there, but it isn't recommended.

helotaxi
December 31, 2011, 12:26 PM
The FTX for the .308 MX is longer if I recall. This leaves to little case to hold powder in the 30-30. I believe that Hornady even mentions not for 30-30. Yes, they are .308 in caliber. So you're right there, but it isn't recommended.Actually the two bullets are exactly the same length. The difference is the radius of the ogive. The .30-30 version has a smaller radius ogive and a more blunt profile because the case is too long to allow a better ogive profile to function through the action. The correct FTX bullet for the application doesn't intrude on the powder space any more than a normal round-nose or flat point bullet. Hornady doesn't recommend the FTX (MX) for the .30-30 because it will not function through the action. The M94AE has the same problem with that bullet in a .307.

As far as opening too fast, the .307, as mentioned above, has a thicker case and is limited to a slightly lower pressure than the .308 because of the action that it was designed for. As such it isn't capable of .308 velocity and the .308MX is slightly faster with the same bullet. It operates well within the design velocity of the FTX bullet.

joed
December 31, 2011, 12:56 PM
I think the only reason lever guns are referred to as "brush guns" is because most of them are short. I would carry my lever gun in places where a bolt rifle would get hung up on brush and small trees. The .30-30 cartridge has nothing to do with firing thru brush.

jmr40
December 31, 2011, 02:39 PM
I think the only reason lever guns are referred to as "brush guns" is because most of them are short. I would carry my lever gun in places where a bolt rifle would get hung up on brush and small trees.

There are far more options for short light bolt rifles in 308 than leverguns in 30-30. Finding levers with barrels shorter than 20" is uncommon. There are lots more options for 16"-20" barreled bolt rifles.

For some reason folks think leverguns are lightweight. Most bolt guns with full length 22"-24" barrels are actually much lighter than 20" barreled 30-30's. My 300 WSM with 24" barrel is exactly the same weight as my 20" Marlin 30-30. My 308's are as much as 2.5 lbs lighter.

Eb1
December 31, 2011, 05:47 PM
Eithway.

Not a fan of .308 bullets from Hornady in my rifles.

JSNAPS
December 31, 2011, 05:49 PM
2 different beasts.

BluegrassDan
January 2, 2012, 08:03 PM
I own both and I'd get a .308 bolt first because it is more versitile. Then, get a .30-30 lever for those rainy days crawling on you hands and knees through laurel thickets for a maximum 40 yard shot.

George1951
January 21, 2012, 04:10 AM
I like the 30-30 round, and would like to obtain a break-action single shot 30-30 at some point that I can load spritzer cartridges for. Just to play around with.

JHenry
January 21, 2012, 04:14 AM
50 BMG, because theres no brush... branch... tree it cant handle ;)

janobles14
January 21, 2012, 05:07 AM
im just wondering who has actually had a bolt gun fail them in some jungle situation. dont get me wrong...i took 3 this year with my cheap 30aw but it made them no less dead than the a-bolt .30-06 which is my go to. damn...how long does a weapon have to be to fail as a brush gun? for me it was the opposite and no branches got in the way. deflected is deflected.

303tom
January 21, 2012, 11:24 AM
I like the 30-30 round, and would like to obtain a break-action single shot 30-30 at some point that I can load spritzer cartridges for. Just to play around with.
Here is a pair of mine, .45-70 & .30-30......

Stevie-Ray
January 21, 2012, 04:51 PM
A "brush gun" is not about shooting "through" brush but about a short, easy to maneuver rifle that's easy to carry through brush and heavy forested areas.

Since when? A brush gun is not all about being short, but also about being able to blast through leaves and small twigs without too much deflection. That's why the .35 Remington was always deemed a fine "brush gun."

MCgunner
January 21, 2012, 05:29 PM
Since when? A brush gun is not all about being short, but also about being able to blast through leaves and small twigs without too much deflection. That's why the .35 Remington was always deemed a fine "brush gun".

Not even a 12 gauge slug retains stability after hitting so much as a twig. I've seen this theory of "shooting through brush" tested in many articles and all call it BS. Best find a path through the obstacles that does not involve hitting anything until bullet hits flesh. For that, i want ACCURACY and good optics, not a .30-30 and iron sights. I'll take my .308 M7 stainless Remington every time, just as light and handy, 3/4 MOA accurate, and hits with more punch to boot. This gun is as at home in the brush as it is in a box blind or a mountain ridge in mule deer and elk country.

Stevie-Ray
January 21, 2012, 06:27 PM
Oh OK. So I suppose the old guys that we used to read are full of it and none of their swill should be taken with as much as a dose of salts? This didn't take much searching:http://www.chuckhawks.com/woods_rifles.htm

Excerpt:
This article is about rifles for hunting medium game (like deer and black bear) in wooded or brushy country, where ranges run from a few yards to a maximum of 200 yards. The average shot in this sort of country will be less than 100 yards, so high velocity and long range killing power are less important than short range stopping power and the ability of the bullet to sneak (or blast) through leaves and twigs on its way to the target.

Yeah, brush gun was never about going through brush.:rolleyes:

MCgunner
January 21, 2012, 06:29 PM
You go right ahead trying to shoot through pine trees. Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

I shoot both, but no longer have a .30-30 rifle. I shoot .30-30 with a 150 nosler in my Contender, 12" hunter barrel. 2050 fps MV out of that gun, 2800 fps for the .308 out of a 20" barrel. In rifles, the .308 bests the .30-30's best handloads by 400 fps in my experience. That's significant enough that in this comparison I'll default to .308 for ANY terrain, personally. I like .30-30 rifles, the lever guns, but I'd as soon be shootin' my 7.62x39 SKS as far as ballistics.

Stevie-Ray
January 21, 2012, 06:31 PM
You go right ahead trying to shoot through pine trees. Good luck with that.
So now it has to be pine trees for you to right, eh?:rolleyes:

MCgunner
January 21, 2012, 06:35 PM
You ain't gonna get through grass any better with your .30-30 or .35 Remington than I am with my .308, either.

Mike1234567
January 21, 2012, 06:47 PM
I once hit a cat hair in Texas with a .308 Win and it deflected the bullet to New York. Then I hit a dog hair in Texas and it deflected to Washington DC. Good shooting in both cases, me-thinks!! :D

03Shadowbob
January 21, 2012, 06:59 PM
I killed a pig this year with my 35 lever that moved behind some brush at the last minute. Lots of leaves and one twig broke and the bullet hit where I aimed. It does happen but it is not as common as being deflected. I don't recommend shooting through brush.

guyfromohio
January 21, 2012, 07:04 PM
30-30 is moar cooler.

MCgunner
January 21, 2012, 07:05 PM
I killed a pig this year with my 35 lever that moved behind some brush at the last minute. Lots of leaves and one twig broke and the bullet hit where I aimed. It does happen but it is not as common as being deflected. I don't recommend shooting through brush.

Nor do I. :D However, if you'd wounded that pig, no biggy, not like if you'd wounded a deer IMHO. Any wounded hog will die sooner or later and the only good hog is a dead hog to a lot of land owners around here. :D

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