Sig tac ops or Springfield loaded?


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Girodin
October 21, 2011, 10:03 PM
I'm looking at a Sig tac ops with 4 mags for $750, with a TLR-1 and safari land drop leg holster for an extra $150. There is also a Springfield 1911 a1 loaded that I am looking at. It comes with two 7 round magazines,1-8round chip macormick magazine,and 1-10 round wilson magazine,also a galco leather holster. The Spiringfield is $575 Both appear to be excellent condition.

Thoughts on which of these two, if either I should get?

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Carter
October 21, 2011, 10:13 PM
Thats a very good price on the sig with all the accessories. Do you have a chance to shoot them both to see which one you like better?

And is this for carry, HD, range, or....?

Girodin
October 21, 2011, 10:40 PM
I might carry it. I have other guns that fill that role. I see it being used for carry, HD, range use, pistol courses, etc.

Mr.454
October 22, 2011, 01:40 AM
I have a Sig tac ops it is my unwavering work horse. Four mags plus fiber optic/ night sights is a great deal.

ugaarguy
October 22, 2011, 03:49 AM
The Sig is too blocky in the slide, and it ruins the in holster feel a 1911 should have with proper rounded slide. Sig also uses the unnecessary Colt Series 80 type firing pin safety, which even Colt can't right all the time. I'd rather get the SA loaded.

rogerjames
October 22, 2011, 01:56 PM
Springfield's custom shop, customer service, and lifetime warranty are all top notch.

Never dealt with Sig customer service but if you plan on owning it a long time, that's something to consider.

Here's a link to thread I recently posted regarding my experience with SA. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=621029

Skylerbone
October 22, 2011, 06:20 PM
For those who "hate" the needless Series 80 system, and I was one of you not so long ago, a link: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92823#Post92823. That article and the well known smith that pointed it out to me forever changed my thinking in regards to those parts. They are easy enough to tune if need be and they are ever so similar to those found in nearly every modern handgun be it Glock 17 or Beretta 92.

Keep in mind that SA warrants their firearms to the original owner so while repairs may be made without question, it is not their obligation to do so.

As far as which to buy, I'd choose neither. You can get a brand new Sig 1911 with rail for $20 more than the Tac Ops and they all use the same parts (save grips and finishes). The Springfield seems rather cheap which sends up the red flag (or maybe local prices are high where I live). You could be in to a Range Officer for under $800, brand new and know that it hasn't been modified.

If you're not intimately familiar with the platform or the particular firearm in question then buying used can be more costly than buying new.

ugaarguy
October 22, 2011, 11:44 PM
For those who "hate" the needless Series 80 system, and I was one of you not so long ago, a link: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...2823#Post92823. That article and the well known smith that pointed it out to me forever changed my thinking in regards to those parts. They are easy enough to tune if need be and they are ever so similar to those found in nearly every modern handgun be it Glock 17 or Beretta 92.
The pistol was tied to a section of 550 cord, looped over a pulley, and dropped onto common floor materials. The magazine was loaded with 8 dummy rounds to bring the pistol up to proper weight.
That test was setup to make sure the muzzle impacted. It took a drop of 6 feet onto concrete to get a .45 ACP size Ti firing to discharge 1 of 6 times. That's eye level or above for most folks. I'll have to dig up the old Army trials which demonstrated that somewhere in the 3 to 4 foot free fall drop range the extra mass at the rear of the weapon brings it around, and causes the side or rear of the pistol to impact.

The lesson from that test is not that you need a firing pin safety in a 1911. The lesson is that if you're carrying in an elevated environment (horseback riding, working from ladders, etc) you should be using a retention holster. That goes for any gun. If you want extra insurance buy a .45 or 9mm Ti firing pin, and extra heavy FP spring, and install them in your 1911.

Also, notice Hilton Yam's comment in reply:
The 1911 seems to get by with the lightened firing pins - they pass the CA DOJ and FBI Professional Model contract tests - but I think we generally dislike the FP safeties as 1911 purists. The existing styles of Ti firing pins are about as light as we can go without ending up with light strikes. In a .45, the .45 size Ti pin is very well proven in the Springfield Professional, and Springfield also uses a 9/.38 size Ti pin in all their production guns without any issues.

Skylerbone
October 23, 2011, 02:59 AM
My point was simply to demonstrate that it is possible for the pistol to discharge with standard configuration. In a holster has nothing to do with use, that was a free fall test, absent the potential of the user breaking his fall with the muzzle for instance. I don't hear the call by Glock, M&P and other owners to strip out the striker blocks due to reliability concerns. I have never dropped a firearm in my 30+ years of hunting and shooting but it is the unexpected we prepare for.

I now consider my previous concerns unfounded and illogical. If the timing is correct it will function properly. If it is not, it will be evident rather quickly and can be serviced.

Were it my money to spend in that price range I'd buy a Colt. I'd have no major qualms with the models the OP mentioned or the new Ruger.

ColtPythonElite
October 23, 2011, 03:09 AM
I have a Springer Loaded and have nothing bad to say about it. It feeds any bullet style/weight I stick in it and shoots nice, tight groups.

azgun
October 23, 2011, 03:15 AM
Tac opa by far

ugaarguy
October 23, 2011, 03:33 AM
My point was simply to demonstrate that it is possible for the pistol to discharge with standard configuration. In a holster has nothing to do with use, that was a free fall test, absent the potential of the user breaking his fall with the muzzle for instance.
It was a free fall test that forced the pistol to land on the muzzle by the setup. If you're breaking a fall with a pistol muzzle things are already going south, and there's some training that needs to be addressed.
I don't hear the call by Glock, M&P and other owners to strip out the striker blocks due to reliability concerns.
The difference is that those guns were designed with striker blocks from the ground up. These weren't later add ons.
If the timing is correct it will function properly. If it is not, it will be evident rather quickly and can be serviced.
I used to think that until I had a 1911 FP block only after several hundred rounds. When the FP block breaks the pistol is useless. Swarz safeties (not in the pistols mentioned in the OP) are even tougher to time.

Skylerbone
October 23, 2011, 04:16 AM
What you train for is not always what happens. I drive the speed limit, obey traffic laws, I don't drive distracted and I always watch for other drivers. None of that kept me from being T-Boned by a Suburban at full speed while the driver was chatting on his phone and blew a red light. Thank goodness for seat belts because none of the cars other safeties made a bit of difference as the front of my Jeep was sheared off.

If your pistol chewed through a firing pin block to the point of breakage then it is you who might want to consider better training in inspecting your weapon. Ditto if you don't plan on a stoppage by carrying a back up, which in your case will be limited in choice due your distrust of firing pin blocks.

In regards to government testing the Series 80 safety came about due to military trials that required such a system. Not new, not rocket science, not a ground up venture, merely a copy of what all other bidders were doing.

If you have your preferences so be it but your portrayal of the parts in question in my estimation is neither typical nor logical. Would you distrust and rid yourself of a non-FPB equipped pistol if its firing pin, slide stop or firing pin stop failed? Those parts too will render the pistol temporarily inoperable. As one poster in another thread here wrote, paraphrasing, would you sell a firearm with thousands of proven rounds when it experiences its first failure?

ugaarguy
October 23, 2011, 04:48 AM
If your pistol chewed through a firing pin block to the point of breakage then it is you who might want to consider better training in inspecting your weapon.
It was fully inspected after every range trip. The failure was sudden and catastrophic. Thankfully I caught it during such a post range cleaning & inspection. You assume to know everything about my gun cleaning & maintenance routine. You don't know a d@mn thing about how I clean & inspect my weapons, so leave that out of the conversation.
Ditto if you don't plan on a stoppage by carrying a back up,
Again, you're assuming I don't. Whether or not I do, what it is or isn't, and where I do or don't carry it is for me to know.
which in your case will be limited in choice due your distrust of firing pin blocks.I don't distrust firing pin blocks. I only distrust them on 1911s based on experience. Obviously you could give a crap a what I think. You seem to be a fan of 10-8 though, so you should read what Hilton Yam says about FP blocks in 1911s. Maybe you'll trust his word -

http://www.10-8performance.com/pages/Choosing-a-1911-for-Duty-Use.html
...I would choose a 1911 without one. It is possible to have a drop safe 1911 without the firing pin safety, and given the potential reliability problems with a poorly executed system, the perceived risk of drop safety is outweighed by the real risk of a failure to fire.(emphasis mine)

By the way, I do own one Series 80 Colt, because there are no Series 70 Delta Elites. It's not a carry gun though, so I made an exemption. I still may take the 80 series parts out. I might even have a local smith fill the safety actuator frame cutouts with weld to correctly finish the job.

Skylerbone
October 23, 2011, 12:54 PM
If you wish to presume things about me it's only fair to allow me the same discourtesy. I didn't post here to argue with your opinion yet you've attempted to pick apart everything I write based on one bad personal experience. If discourse is not allowable by your rules just say so, it may keep the 1911 haters with numerous bad experiences from posting as well.

To answer some of your points: 1 in 6 firings from 6' is the same odds as Russian Roulette which I don't play and which, as you point out, is eye level for most shooters. That is also the approximate level a shooter like me at 6' 3" raises the pistol to in order to align it with my eyes. Hilton Yam fan? Not particularly, it was Chuck Rogers of Rogers Precision that posted that link for me when I made comments similar to your own. I thank him for enlightening me, though at the time I had no intention of being schooled on the matter.

A personal story I might share is the following account from Thursday of this past week. It was muzzleloader season for whitetail in Iowa and I was out hunting as usual. After calling 5 deer, some within 30 yards, I settled in on the largest doe, aimed, squeezed and click. I pulled back the plunger on my Knight rifle, rechecked both safeties and click. 5 clicks and I quickly dislodged the 209 primer carrier and replaced it with another. Click. Reset the bolt a seventh time, found my now available shot on a button buck and boom, dropped him in his tracks. My father's first words were "Time for a Thompson Center." Remember, it was the primers that had failed, not the rifle. My response, cheaper to replace the faulty batch of primers. The moral, every critical part must function properly for things to work and when it doesn't, correct the offender. Giving up early is both expensive and impulsive. Let's please leave things to the OP to consider, we've enough point/counter point already.

ET
October 23, 2011, 02:43 PM
I've got a Springfield Range Officer (a "loaded" Springer). I bought it new for $750. I could have bought a used Mil Spec that had upgrades that made it basically a "loaded" gun for $625, but it was done by a gunsmith in a city far far away. I have a problem with a gun that has had work done on it by someone I know nothing about...but that's just me.

Big Nugget
October 23, 2011, 04:57 PM
I've shot both, but I own a Sig 1911 Nitron rail. I use it as a range gun as I have others for HD. I'm not a CCW holder yet, but just from holstering a gov sized 1911 at the range I believe that I, personally, would choose something else for that roll. I know that people do it and with the correct cary rig I might as well, but until then...

One thing I can say for certain is that I will NEVER get rid of my Sig! Runs like a top and is accurate as hell.

ugaarguy
October 23, 2011, 07:30 PM
Hilton Yam fan? Not particularly, it was Chuck Rogers of Rogers Precision that posted that link for me when I made comments similar to your own. I thank him for enlightening me, though at the time I had no intention of being schooled on the matter.
Skyler, no doubt that test was eye opening. It lead me to order a Ti firing pin for my pre Series II Kimber. Wolff has begun including an extra power FP spring with most of their recoil springs, so that's already on hand. I just did some drop testing of my own, and I'll start a new thread once I get the data entered on the computer.

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