308 velocity dilemma


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CaneCorso85
October 22, 2011, 06:12 PM
Hey guys,

I'm having a bit of trouble getting my 308 ammunition to register anywhere near the load data velocity using the prescribed loads. Here's what i'm using:

Lake City brass
168 SMK
IMR-4895
Win LR Primers
Fired from an M1A Socom
Data from the Sierra and Lee manuals

The data in the lee manual calls for a starting load of 41gr of H4895 (they don't list data for IMR) working up to 43.5gr, which should produce 2703 fps.

The Sierra manual calls for 42.1gr of IMR4895 to only get to 2600fps (does not list data beyond that speed)

Here's what I loaded, and the speeds it chrono'd at:

(yes, I started lower previously and the speeds were in the 2300's)

43gr
#1 - 2415fps
#2 - 2487fps

44gr
#1 - 2525fps
#2 - 2539fps
(note I'm now exceeding data from both books and still not even close to the listed velocities. No signs of overpressure on the casings)

45gr
#1 - 2534fps
#2 - 2530fps
#3 - 2544fps

46gr
#1 - 2614fps

My target velocity is 2660

Question is, despite being pretty high above the max loads for each manual, I'm still not at the prescribed velocities; should I go to 27gr to try to hit 2660? I can take some pictures of the brass for each load if that would help, however, I had a couple of experienced reloaders take a look at them and they didn't see any signs of overpressure. I don't imagine Sierra and Lee got that data using a gas operated rifle like the M1A. It's probably safe to assume a lot of that pressure is lost operating the action, which would tell me I'm probably safe to keep going. I'm just curious what the experts at THR have to say about it.

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Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 22, 2011, 06:19 PM
The more relevant question would be "at which load are you pulling the tightest groups?"

Raw power is not everything. As a rifleman, you are going to learn to make each shot count, right?

If a well-placed shot is made and the bullet is going 200 fps slower than a lousy-shot into the gut, the well-placed shot will be the one with the meat on the table EVERY TIME -- whereas the lousy gut-shot will be the one where the animal suffers, only to be found by some pack of coyotes. Besides, dead is dead, the animal shot is not going to know that the bullet happened to be traveling 200 fps slower than some other loads DESIGNED FOR OTHER GUNS!

I have one load that is borderline maximum (some slight signs of overpressure), and the ONLY REASON I stuck with that particular load was because -- out of about 21 loads I tested, that load pulled, by far the most accurate and tightest group! The gun is a bolt action with 22" barrel! Had the less-powerful load been more accurate, that is what I would have gone with. I don't want to prematurely wear out my chamber and barrel. As it is, with that particular rifle, I shoot only when I know I am going to hit something. I know where it shoots, I know it is accurate, there is no need at all to shoot up bottles, rocks, cans, and go plinking with it. Unlike your gun, mine is not a gas-operated gun!

When you begin pushing pressures in a gas-operated rifle, the timing ends up being 'off' which will rapidly wear parts and may eventually result in a 'kaboom-situation' which we, as reloaders, strive to never have happen!

rcmodel
October 22, 2011, 06:34 PM
getting my 308 ammunition to register anywhere near the load data velocity using the prescribed loads.
M1A Socom huh.
Thats the one with the 16" barrel right?

That right there is your problem!

You will never reach load book velocity safely with a chopped off barrel like that.
So, don't even try it.

rc

Grumulkin
October 22, 2011, 06:37 PM
Yes, M!A SOCUM? Do you have any idea of what high pressure signs are in a semiauto?

You better quit chasing velocity before you wreck your gun.

rcmodel
October 22, 2011, 06:46 PM
It's probably safe to assume a lot of that pressure is lost operating the action,You can safely assume NO pressure is lost in the action.

The bullet is long gone before any gas goes to the gas piston and starts the action operation.

You need to Cease & Desist Immediately, if not sooner.
By your own admission, you are already 5.0 grains over max, likely using Bolt-Action data.
Referancing H-4895 instead of the IMR-4895 you are using!!
And you are considering going higher yet in a gas gun!!

Mercy, mercy, mercy!!

rc

Casefull
October 22, 2011, 11:23 PM
Short barrel, get some faster powder...I seriously doubt you are going to blow up the rifle.

Ridgerunner665
October 22, 2011, 11:32 PM
Short barrel, get some faster powder...I seriously doubt you are going to blow up the rifle.

WRONG...on both counts!

Faster powder won't help...I know because I've been down that road. And he will most certainly wreck that gun if he hasn't already.

CaneCorso85,
You need to be using "service rifle data" in that rifle...and with IMR 4895 the max load with 168 grain bullets is 41.4 grains...going higher MAY NOT explode the rifle, but it WILL damage it if it hasn't already. Get some Varget powder, it will likely get you all the velocity that you're gonna get..which will be around 2,300-2,400 fps.

Thats what short barrels do...they cost velocity.

Please...be safe!

2,660 fps...thats hard to achieve even with a 20 inch barrel on a bolt gun. (For the record...that Sierra manual you have used a 26" barreled Savage as the test rifle)

Also, you could use lighter bullets...150 grains.

Ridgerunner665
October 22, 2011, 11:37 PM
IMR 4895 and H 4895 are not the same powder...IMR is a faster burning powder, and its a temperature sensitive powder. That means it burns a lot hotter in warmer ambient temperatures.

H 4895 is very temp stable, as is Varget...ambient temperature does not affect it.

You are playing fire...make no mistake...STOP, research what the folks here have said and you will see.

wanderinwalker
October 23, 2011, 12:14 AM
Isn't this the second time in the last few week's we've had somebody trying to get full-length velocity from a carbine barrel? :uhoh:

To the OP, STOP! CEASE AND DESIST! You're well into no-man's land already. You have a 16" barreled semi-auto and you're trying to get the speeds the .308 generates from a 22" barrel. Ain't going to happen. Your SOCOM is going to run about 200-fps under any book load you find. Be happy with about 2400-fps with a 165/168. You could get a bit more speed with a 150, but I'd doubt you will see much more than 2550 or so even then.

gamestalker
October 23, 2011, 02:37 AM
If it were me I would switch to a slower buning powder, you'll get the velocity and acuracy is generally excellent with them. Check out loads with RL17 or better yet RL19 and velocity will certainly improve.

Grumulkin
October 23, 2011, 10:20 AM
If it were me I would switch to a slower buning powder, you'll get the velocity and acuracy is generally excellent with them. Check out loads with RL17 or better yet RL19 and velocity will certainly improve.
Just curious. Have you ever loaded for an M1 or an M1A? Do you know what slower powders can do to the OP rod?

amlevin
October 23, 2011, 11:40 AM
I used to "chase velocity", using just about every powder and load for my .308that was ever recommended.

Then one day, by accident, I found that the most accurate load was one of the slower loads published. It isn't what the "book" or "chronograph" says, it's what shows up on your target at the desired range that matters.

If you haven't achieved desired results by the time you reach "MAX LOAD", it's time to stop and reevaluate.

gamestalker
October 23, 2011, 12:57 PM
Grumulkin, I haven't loaded for one of those bugger's in 25 or so years, so I don't really recall what they like to eat. I was just trying to help what sounded like a plea for velocity.

CaneCorso85
October 23, 2011, 01:50 PM
For those suggesting Varget and slower powders; Every piece of material I have read about reloading for the M1A/M14 platform states that Varget (or powders of equivalent speeds) are too slow for the gas system.

For everyone else; Message received. The good news is that the rounds in the data I posted are the only excessive loads ever put through the rifle. The only reasons I loaded those, was because I got the ominus dominus from an experienced reloader and m14 armorer. He has, however, never owned a 16" barrel for one and that may be the disconnect.

I'm focused on velocity because I'm trying to load for long ranges (600 w/168 and 1000 w/175). I'm starting to accept that the SOCOM is limited by quite a few factors, but it's what I have to start with so I'm trying to get as much out of it as I can. I have no doubt I can load something accurate at 200 yards, but that wasn't the goal. I guess I should have stated that in the original post.

Thanks for the advice guys.

You-Two
October 23, 2011, 02:11 PM
CaneCorso85,

I would recommend reading Zediker's article on loading for M14s located here (http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf). While a bit conservative, he highlights the unique aspects of reloading for an M14 type rifle. You can't get as creative with this beast as you can with a bolt gun. Seems like the "standard" loads for highpower are around 40.0-41.5gr using a 4895 type powder...with 40.5gr being "the" load. Winchester commercial cases are also preferred for the long-range events since they generally have more case capacity. I would stay away from any mil cases as they have less capacity...which means higher pressures with the same load.

Good luck with your pursuit!

Ridgerunner665
October 23, 2011, 02:32 PM
There are some folks that say Varget (or Reloder 15) is too slow for an M1 type rifle...but there are also a lot of folks who say that its fine...its one of those things that some folks like to debate...

All I can offer is this...I have shot a few thousand rounds using Varget and Reloder 15 in an M1a, and my rifle is still going strong, no problems whatsoever...very accurate too.

By the way...if you can get a 168 grain bullet (or even a 150-155) up to 2,300-2,400 fps it will perform just fine at 600 yards. It will have a bit more drop but it will be just as accurate as ever. And forget about 175 grain bullets if that rifle has a 1 in 12" twist...you'll never get them fast enough to remain stabilized.

oldpapps
October 23, 2011, 04:16 PM
CaneCorso85, I believe that you have proven how strong the M1A action really is.
My Lee manual doesn't list what barrel length was used in their testing, I don't have Serra book handy, so that's a no help. However my old Speer book shows there tests in a 22 inch barrel. I think it would be a safe guess that most if not all manuals test with barreled actions that are on the long side of what is carried in the field.

To the point:
I would not hope to expect to equal the listed velocities with a shorter barrel.
Using H4895 data but using IMR4895 powder is not safe! They are two different powders.
If your only goal is to shoot a faster bullet, get a 220 Swift or something like that.
To equal or exceed book velocities, get a 28 inch barrel for a Thompson take down action and then slowly work up with the correct components.

Oh, could you provide some photos of the brass that you fired with these loads? I would like to see the primers and head expansion.

Remember, no one wants you to be hurt. So only error on the side of safety.

OSOK

zeke
October 23, 2011, 08:04 PM
2400 fps is about tops in what to expect using a 168 gn bullet in 16 in barrel 308. 2600 fps with 150/147 grainer.

JohnKSa
October 23, 2011, 08:17 PM
Question is, despite being pretty high above the max loads for each manual, I'm still not at the prescribed velocities; should I go to 27gr to try to hit 2660?"max" is short for "maximum".

Maximum means:

1.
a. The greatest possible quantity or degree.
b. The greatest quantity or degree reached or recorded; the upper limit of variation.
c. The time or period during which the highest point or degree is attained.
2. An upper limit permitted by law or other authority.
3. Astronomy
a. The moment when a variable star is most brilliant.
b. The magnitude of the star at such a moment.
4. Mathematics
a. The greatest value assumed by a function over a given interval.
b. The largest number in a set.
adj.
1. Having or being the greatest quantity or the highest degree that has been or can be attained: maximum temperature.
2. Of, relating to, or making up a maximum: a maximum number in a series.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/maximum

Notice that every definition and meaning of maximum implies that nothing exceeds the maximum.It's probably safe to assume a lot of that pressure is lost operating the action, which would tell me I'm probably safe to keep going.Both of those are incorrect assumptions and also unsafe.I got the ominus dominus from an experienced reloader and m14 armorer.Buy another reloading manual or 2 or 3 and use them to verify any data provided by "experienced reloaders". I'm just curious what the experts at THR have to say about it.Reloading not a productive or safe activity for people who don't follow rules.

You can be thankful that you didn't blow up your rifle and harm yourself or others.

USSR
October 23, 2011, 10:08 PM
CanCorso85,

You trying to blow your rifle up? The loads you listed using more than 43 grains of IMR4895 with Lake City brass are dangerous high pressure loads. I guarantee the load data you are using does not use Lake City brass. You cannot take .308 load data using commercial brass, and transfer it to 7.62x51 brass without reducing the charge weight. Adding more powder to reach a certain velocity without taking the pressure generated into account is an accident waiting to happen.

Don

MEHavey
October 23, 2011, 10:41 PM
You are already getting exactly what your 16" barrel will produce.
Like a dead horse, it isn't going to do any more. PERIOD.

2,400-2,425fps is your limit w/ any reasonable 168SMK/powder/pressure combo,
and that's only with the likes of 39.5-40.0 grains of IMR3031.

griff383
October 23, 2011, 11:11 PM
Lately I have been playing around with Alliants new 2000 MR powder and a 16" LR308. From what I have gathered it has a similar burn rate to RL-15 which SHOULD make it safe to use in your rifle but please do your own research to confirm. They have two max charges for 165gr bullets so I chose the smaller of the two, and that being 50gr. I went down 10% and worked up to the max, I started seeing signs of pressure (at 50gr) but nothing that would make ME think it was any where near unsafe. I would even venture a guess that I could go 1 or 2 grains over max and still be safe.

At max charge I was in the low 2700's with decent ES numbers, I chose 49.5 grains as the load for my gun since it gave the best accuracy and that gives a hair under 2700 from my rifle.

Im using LC brass, CCI #34 primers, and Hornady 165gr BTSP bullets.

CaneCorso85
October 23, 2011, 11:14 PM
As stated in my first response, message received. For those of you who provided useful feedback; Thanks. For those who copied and pasted from websters dictionary, not so much.

Obviously, in coming here I'm seeking advice and bouncing ideas off people who have more experience than me, in order to maximize my results and help keep me in check safety wise. I've been in the Marine Corps for almost eight years by now, and in that time I've acquired some pretty thick skin, but I can guarantee there are people out there trying to learn about reloading and for fear of receiving some snarky condescending response, won't even ask the question that may save their guns, or more.

Like I said, I took some bad advice from someone whom I perceived to be a very experienced reloader. That person made it seem as if most reloading manuals are written by rooms full of lawyers, who make all of the manufacturers reduce there data by some large margin before the load actually starts approaching dangerous. Additionally, after every shot from the above data, I had people who'd been reloading for 20 plus years inspect the brass and check for signs of overpressure. There were none.

NCsmitty
October 24, 2011, 12:11 AM
Thank you for your service CaneCorso85.

Realize that you were admonished for your approach of loading to velocity, instead of to listed book maximum. No one here would like your rifle wrecked due to a lack of understanding of accepted loading practices.
I'm sure that a lesson has been learned, and you don't need to be offended by comments made because we are all here because of our love of firearms and our freedoms.
If I'm not mistaken, the M1A produced by Springfield Armory has the capability and clearance to fire 308 Winchester factory ammunition at SAAMI spec, and that can register up to 62,000 PSI.
Just be careful and try to adhere to maximum loads listed in the manuals, and at www.hodgdon.com.

Have a good day!


NCsmitty

JohnKSa
October 24, 2011, 12:49 AM
For those who copied and pasted from websters dictionary, not so much.You don't know how lucky you are. Realistically, if you had blown the rifle at the range, you probably wouldn't have been in as much danger as those next to you on the line. Besides the liability involved in injuring a bystander, living with that kind of thing would not be easy or fun.

You have taken up a hobby that creates controlled explosions inside metallic casings. If you think that sounds a lot like making grenades, it is--except for ONE tiny detail. That detail is that you stay under max loads and that SINGLE fact means you're creating ammunition instead of grenades.

I softened my original response before hitting the submit button. Initially I stated that you should not be involved in reloading because reloading is about following rules and you apparently think that you are above that as long as you can find someone to go along with you. After re-reading your second post on the thread I decided that might be too harsh so I changed my post. But now you're still defending what you did, trying to make excuses for it, trying to prove why it wasn't really that bad, and that's making me think that my first response was on target.

YOU are the one who is responsible for making and firing overpressure loads even though the loading data you had access to clearly indicated that the loads were dangerous. NOT the "experienced reloader" who told you that reloading manuals were overly cautious. NOT the "experienced reloaders" who inspected the brass and told you the loads were safe.

Had you blown up your rifle, YOU would have had to pay to replace it, not your buddies who gave you horrible advice.

Had you injured yourself, YOU would have borne the consequences, no one else.

Had you injured someone else in the process, YOU would have been responsible and YOU would have had to live with the knowledge that your decision to disregard the clear warnings in the loading data caused someone else to suffer.

This isn't a game, and I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt, but your feelings don't really matter into the big picture. It's not about feelings or ego, it's about following the rules so you don't make grenades instead of ammunition.
Obviously, in coming here I'm seeking advice and bouncing ideas off people who have more experience than me, in order to maximize my results and help keep me in check safety wise. I've been in the Marine Corps for almost eight years by now, and in that time I've acquired some pretty thick skin, but I can guarantee there are people out there trying to learn about reloading and for fear of receiving some snarky condescending response, won't even ask the question that may save their guns, or more.You're still not getting it. You already had all the information you needed to load safe ammunition and you decided to disregard it. Even if you had come here and gotten some folks to cheerlead your actions instead of point out the danger, that wouldn't change anything.

So you take your pick. If you want people to tell you what you want to hear, go back to your buddies who know more than the reloading manuals. If you want the truth, you'll have to accept the fact that you screwed up bigtime and that the only thing that prevented a catastrophe was pure luck. There's no nice way to say that.

murf
October 24, 2011, 01:24 AM
well said, john.

murf

R.W.Dale
October 24, 2011, 01:37 AM
Fundamentally your problem with low velocity isn't a load data or relading problem. Its a lack of barrel length problem.

Your ill advised attempt to make up for this (pun intended) shortcoming with over Max loads can and WILL lead to problems much more serious than a little extra bullet drop.

Ponder this. If all you need is some extra power to overcome the velocity loss from a short bbl then why in the world would anyone carry a gun with a longer than 16" tube?


BTW I see mid 2800 fps with 175g bullets using imr 4064. BUT my rifle has a 30" barrel

posted via tapatalk using android.

CaneCorso85
October 24, 2011, 02:03 AM
I'm not going to sit here and get into a pissing contest with you. I'm definitely not trying to defend the loads. I've admitted several times within this thread that it was a bad idea.

By referencing the person who gave me the advice, I'm explaining how I reached my original conclusion. That is hardly passing the buck. I don't need you or anyone else here to explain the principals of responsibility to me.

For what its worth, whenever I test new ammunition there isn't a person within 50 meters of me. The REAL frag grenade you referenced only has a kill radius of 5 meters. I'm not playing soccer in a minefield while infants and small cute puppies spectate. I understand the inherent danger that comes with reloading ammunition. As previously stated, there were no signs of overpressure. Moving on.

R.W.Dale
October 24, 2011, 02:15 AM
OK very well we can move on to technical matters.


With a lot of modern rifles with very smooth chambers and rigid actions you may never see any of the traditional "pressure signs" unill chamber pressures are several thousand psi over maximum saami spec.

This is one point I strongly disagree with the manuals. They put this fourth as though primer flatness is some sort of Gospel when in actuality it may have just as much or more to do with the rifle and chamber as it does pressure

posted via tapatalk using android.

murf
October 24, 2011, 02:27 AM
i think the op has just proved your point, rwdale. shooting a load that is 4 grains over max with no signs of overpressure is still 4 grains over max. overpressure signs don't work.

murf

Kernel
October 24, 2011, 11:19 AM
After doing some quick calculations (modified Powley method), your 46 grain load had a chamber pressure of at least 82,000 psi (and it could be much higher). The same set of equations predict a muzzle velocity of 2,680 fps with a 16ď barrel, pretty close to the 2,614 you recorded at some distance from the muzzle.

SAAMI max for the .308 Win is 62k. If the 82k number is right, then you were 32% over SAAMI max. Proof testing on centerfire rifle cartridges are typically done at 25% over max. You probably havenít damaged your rifle, but you have ďsuperĒ proofed it.

The reason the brass looked normal was because you were using GI brass. Itís thick, overly strong, and notorious for not showing pressure signs until it cracks (just like some real GIs). A good reason to switch to Winchester, or other commercial brass, at least for load development.

Stick with 4895, itís a great powder for the M1A (IĎve had one for over 15 years). Varget would be my second. Iíve experimented with a dozen powders, and those two are the cream of the crop. In a bolt gun the ideal powder is slower, like: 4350, R17, or N150. But, gas guns, like the M1A, NEED a faster powder. Keep that in mind when looking at published loads.

Seedtick
October 24, 2011, 03:09 PM
..., but I can guarantee there are people out there trying to learn about reloading and for fear of receiving some snarky condescending response, won't even ask the question....

I know this to be a fact. It's a shame.

Seedtick

:)

1911Tuner
October 24, 2011, 03:18 PM
During my time shooting High Power, my standard match load was the Hornady 168-grain match and 42.7 grains IMR 4895. Chronographed velocity was in the 2595-2620 fps neighborhood, and it was a nice, accurate load that didn't beat up the rifle and the brass lived long.

With shorter barrels, you can expect to lose about 25-30 fps per inch on average, and some rifles may lose more...or less...depending on several factors. The standard MIA/M14 barrel length is 22 inches. Do the math, and you'll see that your velocities are just about in line with what you can expect.

Something about the Garand/M14 gas system is that they were designed to operate within certain bullet mass and powder pressure time/curve parameters. Go too far beyond those parameters, and you can expect to break op-rods while-u-wait.

Wanna go ahead and ask me how I know about that?

BullfrogKen
October 24, 2011, 03:58 PM
I'm focused on velocity because I'm trying to load for long ranges (600 w/168 and 1000 w/175). I'm starting to accept that the SOCOM is limited by quite a few factors, but it's what I have to start with so I'm trying to get as much out of it as I can. I have no doubt I can load something accurate at 200 yards, but that wasn't the goal. I guess I should have stated that in the original post.

Beyond what's already been posted about safe laods, which really needs no further commentary . . .

A SOCOM isn't the best platform to try shooting that far with. The short barrel and poor scope mounting choices work against you. Unless all you want to do is shoot at extra big steel plates, that is.

JohnKSa
October 25, 2011, 01:38 AM
..., but I can guarantee there are people out there trying to learn about reloading and for fear of receiving some snarky condescending response, won't even ask the question....

I know this to be a fact. It's a shame.Pure BS.

If people are reloading unsafely it's because they're careless, because they haven't really tried to get the information required to reload safely or because they've disregarded the reloading information they already have. It's NOT because they're so afraid of getting their feelings hurt that they won't ask questions.

The fact is that people don't have to ask questions to get all the information they will ever need to learn how to reload safely. There are any number of reloading manuals out there, lots of official loading data posted online, many DVDs and videos, and tons of information both in printed form and on the internet. A person who has the ability to acquire the equipment required to reload can also easily get the information required to reload safely without ever having to ask anyone anything.

MEHavey
October 25, 2011, 01:55 AM
..., but I can guarantee there are people out there trying to learn about reloading and for
fear of receiving some snarky condescending response, won't even ask the question....

I know this to be a fact. It's a shame.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pure BS.

If people are reloading unsafely it's because they're careless, because they haven't really tried...

I agree w/ the former far more than the latter.

That latter drives away those who would have listened, have at least asked,
and have gotten kicked in the teeth for their trouble.

And THAT they will remember above all else.






If anyone is interested, read the related Schofield's Definition of Discipline some time.

amlevin
October 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
Additionally, after every shot from the above data, I had people who'd been reloading for 20 plus years inspect the brass and check for signs of overpressure. There were none.

Did they also inspect your rifle to see if the operating rod or gas piston were taking an excessive beating? Ditto the bolt/receiver?


PS: I've heard that a Marine's skin is not all that's thick.

MEHavey
October 25, 2011, 12:23 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QZGqzMEGNjs/Soq6ZRvQa8I/AAAAAAAAAFA/vcBExeLlK-Y/s320/Charlie+Brown+Scream.jpg
"Message Received" guys

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7675944&postcount=23

Jim Watson
October 25, 2011, 01:52 PM
...I perceived to be a very experienced reloader. That person made it seem as if most reloading manuals are written by rooms full of lawyers, who make all of the manufacturers reduce there data by some large margin before the load actually starts approaching dangerous.

I went through that.
"Everybody said" that Sierra data was very conservative, especially for the then-new 90 grain .224" meant for fast twist .223s. So I did not see anything wrong with exceeding it in accordance with Internet Expertise. I did not see any "pressure signs" on my brass at Sierra + 10% and accuracy was excellent. Until the barrel got hot and fouled during a long match and bullets started disappearing on the way to the target. I had one 1000 yard target that was nothing but 10s, Xs and misses. Overloaded bullets, spun fast, deforming out of the barrel. I got some very strange holes in close range targets while studying the problem. So I now load Sierra bullets with Sierra data and JLK and Berger bullets somewhat heavier as thoroughly tested with no trouble.

barnetmill
October 25, 2011, 02:25 PM
I suggest as a reference that you fire some commercial and also arsenal loaded 7.62x51 just to see what these loads produce in your gun. While I doubt that the cast receiver of the M1A is a strong as the forged GI M14, the action should be as strong as a bolt gun. The main thing is greater pressure from hotter loads causing the gas system to batter the innards of the gun. I know that the garand is sensitive to such things, but I do not know what the case is with the M14 system.

JohnKSa
October 26, 2011, 12:19 AM
I agree w/ the former far more than the latter.

That latter drives away those who would have listened, have at least asked,
and have gotten kicked in the teeth for their trouble.

And THAT they will remember above all else.The OP's first post clearly indicated that he had safe reloading data before asking his questions here. So it's neither relevant nor accurate to claim or imply that frank responses will have an impact on his ABILITY to reload safely.

On the other hand, frank responses could have a significant impact, not only on on the OP, but also on others who read this thread. It's actually quite important to impress upon people the importance of relying on safe loading data as opposed to the advice of "experienced reloaders" who have no problems reassuring them that loads that exceed SAAMI by 20Kpsi are safe.

And THAT is what they SHOULD remember above all else.

Are you honestly saying that you believe that people can't get the information that they need to reload safely without asking someone (and risking getting their feelings hurt)?

MEHavey
October 26, 2011, 01:06 AM
I honestly believe in Schofield's Definition.
Did you read it?

Bio-Chem
October 26, 2011, 01:42 AM
It's so nice to find a forum finally where guys are giving correct advice/correction without being *******s about it. you guys know your stuff around here and i really like that.

1911Tuner
October 26, 2011, 06:42 AM
I guess the prevailing message is to stick with recommended data and ignore the velocity, and accept whatever it is with known safe loads. Added velocity serves mainly to flatten trajectory which means that you'll need to compensate for it with sight adjustment when firing at greater ranges like shooters with full-length rifles do. The only drawback is that you can't rely on rule-of-thumb "Clicks up or down" in the transition. You'll need to develop your own range card specific to the rifle and the velocities that you're getting with it.

JohnKSa
October 26, 2011, 06:33 PM
I honestly believe in Schofield's Definition.I'm well aware of the varying theories of discipline.

First of all, Schofields Definition is great for helping someone along when they've made a mistake because they didn't know any better.

When someone knows the right thing to do, does the wrong thing anyway and then tries to make excuses for it, that's another story. At some point it's time to respond frankly without trying to sugarcoat things. If for no other reason than for the benefit of others who may be aware of the situation and can learn from it.

Second, Schofield's Definition is specifically oriented toward "discipline", that is, the correction by someone in authority of someone under their authority. That's not the situation here. I'm not going to put something in his file that will hurt his career, nor am I responsible for his development as a person or officer or enlisted man.

What's important here is twofold.

1. That the OP understands the seriousness of his error so that he is never tempted to repeat it under any circumstances, even if another "experienced reloader" who he trusts tells him it's ok and other "experienced reloaders" tell him that there are no danger signs.
2. That others understand the seriousness of the OPs error so that they are never tempted to duplicate it under any circumstances.

There's a time to be sweet and nice and to try to make your underlings love you more, and there's a time to sharply tell someone to stop what they're doing and back away before their screwup hurts themselves or others. I'm sorry that the OP's feelings got hurt, but I'm glad he stopped before he hurt himself or others. And more to the point, our job, as responsible gun owners and members of the gun community is to see that others don't follow his bad example.

Besides, your premise (that we need to be nice so we don't scare people away who need to ask questions to reload safely) is predicated on the assumption that people won't know how to reload properly if they're afraid to ask questions. That is OBVIOUSLY not the case. Not in this situation since the OP clearly stated he knew he was loading over max. It's not the situation in ANY case because anyone who can get reloading equipment can also easily get reloading data. The idea that people need to post questions on internet forums (or elsewhere or ask people in person) before they can reload safely is a flawed premise.

What people need is not sweet talk so they won't be afraid to ask questions in the future, what they need is a proper perspective on what kind of dangerous conditions they can create by not following the basic rules of safe reloading.

Ideally, it would be absolutely ideal for the OP to be highly upset and alarmed by the responses he receives here. So much so that he would immediately go and chew out the people who encouraged him to do what he did and reassured him that he wasn't doing anything unsafe. They need the lesson FAR worse than he does.

MEHavey
October 26, 2011, 07:18 PM
For those not familiar w/ Schofield, I offer the following excerpt:

.....not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far
more likely to destroy then to make an army. It is possible to impart instructions and give
commands in such a manner and in such a tone of voice to inspire in the soldier no feeling,
but an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail
to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or the other of dealing
with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who
feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them regard for
himself while one who feels, and hence manifests disrespect towards others, especially his
inferiors, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself.

Replace the word 'discipline' with "leadership" (which is Schofield's actual point), and you quickly slide into the essence of teaching -- and teaching is one of the primary functions of a forum like this one. We have people here who are beyond competent and are truly doctors (i.e., teachers) of the philosophy (i.e., theory) of both internal and external ballistics. And so too we have neophytes -- who range from the truly scary to the merely unpracticed.

The OP was of the unpracticed variety, but knew enough to know something wasn't adding up to what he had been advised by others supposedly smarter and more practiced than he, and that he was beyond normal limits w/o getting what had been informed were expected results....

So he asked the question: What's going on here?

Leadership on our part is embodied in how we answer the question in a constructive manner -- a manner that inspires "... an intense desire to comply..." -- and leave the message that we have people who respect his ability/willingness to learn, in addition to as his need to hit the books as well.

His first response was literally "message received."

And that was enough for me to continue imparting what I know from many years -- and many mistakes -- so that another man can pick up and continue this avocation for many more years.

USSR
October 26, 2011, 07:24 PM
Geeez, are we done with the touchy-feely stuff now?:rolleyes:

Don

MEHavey
October 26, 2011, 07:30 PM
Roger
[BSEG]

(And now... back to my spinach quiche.)
:D

CaneCorso85
October 26, 2011, 11:42 PM
Live at work for a couple days and I’m still being scolded :rolleyes:

John, I can appreciate your frankness, however, my feelings were hardly hurt. If I had a dollar for every person lacking tact I interacted with on the internet, I could pay cash for a house in the Beverly Hills.

What was irritating about your post, to me, was that I had already been reprimanded by the entire rest of the internet by the time you posted and stated that I understood the mistake. That should have been your cue to offer technical advice or nothing at all. It was obvious from the rest of the responses I had received up until that point that what I was doing was very unsafe and that I should cease to continue.

I get it. I really do. I’m sure you’re very knowledgeable about reloading and ballistics and I am pretty new to the hobby. As the expression goes, I know just enough to get myself in trouble. That’s why I’m here, but at the end of the day I’m still a grown ass man and I’m not going to be talked down to like a child by a faceless username with a superiority complex. I’m sure you’ve always been a shining beacon of reason and have never made a mistake in your reloading journey. The rest of us humans sometimes use the internet to learn from the mistakes we DO inevitably make.

JohnKSa
October 28, 2011, 12:46 AM
As the expression goes, I know just enough to get myself in trouble.That's incorrect. You knew EVERYTHING you needed to know to reload safely. It was NOT your lack of knowledge that got you into trouble, it was the fact that you chose to disregard what you knew to be true.Iím not going to be talked down to like a child...I'm not talking down to you, I'm levelling with you as an adult, from one who is responsible for his own actions to another.

What you're actually complaining about is that you're NOT being treated like a child. Being treated like a child would be: "There, there, it's not that bad, it wasn't your fault, those people misled you and besides no one got hurt so it's all ok."The rest of us humans sometimes use the internet to learn from the mistakes we DO inevitably make.Sure, the internet is a great resource. I'm glad you finally used it to confirm that what you already knew to be true (overloads are dangerous) was actually true.

Most of all, I hope that everyone who reads this understands how dangerous your actions were and how lucky you were to have avoided damaging your gun and injuring yourself and/or others. ...stated that I understood the mistake.That's really the crux of the matter. You still don't understand what could have happened. For one thing, your 50 meter safety radius is laughable. The energy in a standard pressure .308 cartridge is capable of propelling a small piece of metal for well over a mile. The idea that a person 50 meters away is safe from injury resulting from flying debris from the explosion of a seriously overloaded firearm is ridiculous.

You still don't want to acknowledge how dangerous what you were doing was, nor how lucky you were to have avoided injuring yourself or others, and you're still trying to come up with reasons to explain to us why what you did wasn't really that bad. (e.g. because someone told you it was ok to overload, because someone else told you the loads were safe, because you kept everyone away while you tested your potential bombs, etc.)Iím still a grown ass man...Being grown is one thing. Being adult is another and involves the concept of personal responsibility and that doesn't include trying to make light of serious screwups, trying to lay the blame on others or trying to deflect attention from the screwup by complaining about other issues.

Nothing you can say at this point is going to justify what you did. At this point you can keep trying to deflect things away from the actual point of this thread by complaining that "the entire internet" is being mean to you and that what you did wasn't really that bad, or you can simply admit you screwed up by making a bad decision, state sincerely that you intend to learn from your mistake, and then move on.

MEHavey
October 28, 2011, 07:23 AM
Being grown is one thing. Being adult is another....
Couldn't have said it better myself. :banghead:

1911Tuner
October 28, 2011, 07:57 PM
*sigh*

Let me reference a quote from a wise, old reloader. (paraphrased)

"The pressures required to accelerate a 168-grain bullet to 2600 fps in 16 inches of rifled barrel are way yonder more than what is necessary to blow your eyes through the back of your head."

Another one:

"If you want to live long and prosper...listen to those who know."

The data developed in the manuals was developed by some very smart people using some very expensive equipment that measures not only peak pressure...which is now known to be only part of the equation...but also the pressure curves...area under the curves...and average pressures. If they've established a maximum charge weight...it might not be a bad idea to pay attention. 200 fps is neither here nor there in a target rifle. Eyes and fingers are hard to come by.

Cheers

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