Semi-Auto .410 Pistol Grip Only * PGO * -- Does Anyone Make One??


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Mike1234567
October 24, 2011, 11:29 AM
Does anyone make a semi-auto PGO .410 smooth bore firearm?

Since these are classified as "other" rather than shotguns then, the way I understand it, the barrels may be legally cut shorter than 18 inches provided the overall length is at least 26 inches and this does not require a tax stamp.

IMHO, a .410 PGO shorty sure seems like a great HD firearm.

BTW, I'm aware of Mossberg's PGO pump actions. I might go that route but I prefer a good semi-auto.

ETA: I can't spend more than $1000. I want a .410 bore due to lesser recoil compared to 12ga or 20ga. I'll be adding a light/laser combo for sight acquisition because I'm sure I'll be watching the threat instead of my sights. If the laser fails I'm sure I'll be point-shooting.

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Fred Fuller
October 24, 2011, 11:42 AM
The majority of semiauto shotgun designs out there require a bolt return spring assembly that is nested in the stock behind the receiver. To the best of my possibly scanty knowledge, no one in the USA has ever manufactured a semiauto PGO AOW shotgun in .410, which is what it would take to get a Federally legal gun with a barrel shorter than 18". And even that might not be legal in all states/local jurisdictions. BTW, the AOW still requires a tax stamp, but it's only $5. See the NFA Forum here at THR for more...

So as far as I know, the only option you have for what you want is to build a SBS (short barrel shotgun) with the appropriate paperwork ($200 tax stamp, where available).

a .410 PGO shorty sure seems like a great HD firearm.

Not to me, but I'm beginning to wonder if I really know anything at all about shotguns any more, or any other firearm for that matter. Or whether I've been transported to some kind of alternate dimension or something. Wait... is that Rod Serling's voice I hear?

Mike1234567
October 24, 2011, 12:01 PM
LOL, Lee!! So, as far as you know, my only option is a Mossberg pump action? There are no domestically made PGO shot shell semi-auto firearms? BTW, I could opt for 20ga but the .410 bore would be much easier to handle as a PGO.

ETA: And don't touch your television set. Oh, wait, that's "The Outer Limits".

Fred Fuller
October 24, 2011, 01:22 PM
There was a company (Sage International) that did a PGO conversion of the Remington 1100 some years back, it was called a Sidewinder IIRC. But it would have to be a SBS to be shorter than 18" of barrel. And as far as I know they never did any in .410.

High Standard used their own Supermatic design to build the Model 10A and 10B series of bullpup semiautos because it was about the only semiauto design at the time that did not have a bolt return spring. The Al Crouch-developed prototype for the design (1957) was based on the Remington Model 58, primarily because that design lacked a bolt return spring and was widely available (though limited to only three shots). About the only other semiauto action choice at the time that did not have a bolt return spring was the Sears/JC Higgins Model 60, which looks suspiciously like a High Standard Supermatic.

Mike1234567
October 24, 2011, 01:47 PM
Okay... So I'm limited to a pump action for a PGO shot shell firearm. I was afraid of that. I think a semi-auto 18" is better for HD than a 15.5" pump. Maybe six one... or a half dozen the other.

DPris
October 24, 2011, 02:07 PM
A very poor choice for a home def...for ANY purpose, really, beyond just making noise.
Denis

Mike1234567
October 24, 2011, 02:19 PM
A semi-auto .410 shot shell firearm is a "poor choice" for home defense??? Please elaborate.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 24, 2011, 02:25 PM
Are your hallways that small that you would need a gun that small? Your better off with a proper handgun if thats the case. Take it from the experts such as Lee.

Youngster
October 24, 2011, 02:47 PM
I've seen "Krink" style .410 Saigas from custom outfits, a PGO might be doable, however I don't see what you're gaining with that configuration.

Rail Driver
October 24, 2011, 03:16 PM
You know, if you want a short barrel just spend the $200 on a stamp and make what you want when it's approved... it's not as difficult as it seems, and you avoid the hassle of having to call your lawyer to come explain the law to some unaware LEO that just arrested you for what he believes to be a weapons violation and you can put a stock on it if you want rather than having to keep it PGO forever.

788Ham
October 24, 2011, 03:43 PM
Sorry guys, I'm not trying to be dense here, but the way these PGO, AOW's are thrown out on here, I'm in need of a little edumacation on these!

PGO?
AOW?
Thanks,

The Sarge
October 24, 2011, 03:46 PM
Saiga .410

Fred Fuller
October 24, 2011, 04:40 PM
PGO - pistol grip only, a shotgun that meets minimum federal barrel length and overall length standards

http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/moss_46399.jpg

Image from http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/moss_46399.jpg


AOW - any other weapon, a legal term for (in this case) a shotgun that was manufactured by the original manufacturer with a short barrel and pistol grip and never fitted with a shoulder stock

http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg

Image from http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

oneounceload
October 24, 2011, 05:20 PM
Mossberg sells their PGO guns - they can be converted to AOW since they never had a shoulder stock on them; otherwise they would be a SBS - short barrel shotgun

The difference is in the price of the stamp.

ugaarguy
October 25, 2011, 05:29 AM
If my understanding of the NFA is correct, some clarification is needed. The tax stamp for a Form 1 (that's the form used to get approval to make the NFA item, even if that making is simply converting a Title I firearm into an NFA regulated Title II firearm) is $200, regardless of which type of NFA firearm one wishes to make. The tax stamp for a Form 4, transfer of an NFA regulated item, is $200 for SBR/SBS/Sound Suppressor/transferable machinegun, but only $5 for an AOW.

In other words, if you're legally doing it yourself the tax to make an AOW or an SBS is the same. The transfer tax on one already made by an SOT manufacturer is what's different.

Mike1234567
October 25, 2011, 06:53 AM
Since I prefer a semi-auto and removable magazines then maybe I'll just pay for the $200 stamp and build a PGO .410 shorty Saiga. It just sticks in my craw to pay that darned tax... and the 4-6 month wait time is no joy either. I already have a Saiga .410, BTW.

ForumSurfer
October 25, 2011, 09:36 AM
Before you think about it too much, you may want to read what some people who have tried the pgo configuration in competition or people that have taken extensive shotgun training courses have to say about it. You're really not gaining anything except the ability to store it in a small place. Anything a pgo can do, a stocked shotgun does better....except for storage in small places.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=621481

Mike1234567
October 25, 2011, 11:07 AM
ForumSurfer... Thanks for the links. I'll read them thoroughly. I'm sure there will be a couple of things debated such as recoil recovery and aiming. I don't think recoil will be a problem with a .410 bore and I'll be using a light/laser combo.

Off to do some reading...

pikid89
October 25, 2011, 11:14 AM
you'd be surprised what kind of recoil the .410 can generate, especially in lightweight guns

Id bet $$$ that even, I an untrained shotgunner (other than clays and stuff), could shoot a course faster with my 12 gauge duck gun, than a PGO .410

with as many posts as you have, I would have thought that you've been around long enough to know that PGO's don't get no love around here, and for good reason

Carl N. Brown
October 25, 2011, 11:32 AM
(PGO) ....the way I understand it, the barrels may be legally cut shorter than 18 inches provided the overall length is at least 26 inches

There is an ATF tech letter to that effect. I would not bet on ATF not changing its mind in the future, though.

Shotguns pistol grip only (PGO) from the factory were not designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder, therefore they are not a "long gun" under the GCA or on the 4473: they are "other" weapon just like a raw AR receiver that could be built as a rifle or a pistol.

If you take a PGO and install a buttstock it becomes re-designed to be fired from the shoulder and magically is transformed to a conventional "long gun" and can wear either a pistol grip or a buttstock as long as barrel is over 18" and overall is over 26". For that versatility I would opt to keep a PGO barrel length 18" or over.

As to the opening post, the local gun shops run from sporting good stores to self-defense to class 3 either "cop shops" or NFA collectors. I have not seen a PGO .410 semi-auto, although I have not been looking that hard. The PGOs I have seen in .410 are all pump action.

RustHunter87
October 25, 2011, 11:34 AM
This should be about what your after. (http://www.alliancearmament.com/acceleratorpistol.aspx)
might have to settle for a 12 Ga though

Andrew Wyatt
October 25, 2011, 12:24 PM
I'd spend the money on paying someone to teach you how to run a gun that's actually worthwhile.

Mike1234567
October 25, 2011, 12:29 PM
I guess I should have added that I don't want a 12ga and prefer smaller than 20ga due to recoil issues with a pistol grip. I should also have stated a maximum $$$ amount I'm willing to pay. Let's set it at $1000 or less.

Youngster
October 25, 2011, 12:44 PM
A 12 gauge PGO isn't that hard to shoot, even with buck and slugs at eye level, even one handed is doable if you know what you're doing.

The thing is, along with its inherent disadvantages a PGO doesn't gain much over a short barrelled shotgun as far as handiness and maneuverability are concerned.

My 12.5" 870 with short Hogue stock is only 31", short enough that I can readily open doors and otherwise use my other hand while keeping the gun at the ready, going through doorways and approaching corners is no problem either.

desidog
October 25, 2011, 12:59 PM
I have Saiga 410 - and if someone came in the house uninvited, i'd much rather have a pistol. A 357mag with a 4" barrel is shorter, lighter, quicker, cheaper(after ATF paperwork/conversion/etc) , and delivers more of a punch than a 410 slug from a 19" barrel. It also fits in your nightstand drawer.

410's are fun, but trusting your safety to one when there's many other more optimal options out there is lunacy, IMHO.

Mike1234567
October 25, 2011, 01:01 PM
^^^ I wouldn't be so sure. Five #00 balls per shot fired at 1200-1400 fps ain't nuthin' to sneeze at. :)

pikid89
October 25, 2011, 11:44 PM
Mike, this thread is turning into a thread that you commented in, so i would assume you read it, if not, here is a link
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=606746

I will leave you with something I wrote in that thread that maybe will help to sway you


Quote:
and for all those that dogpile onto the whole "It won't work,isn't as good as ect, ect" have you ever tried it?
Yes i have owned a few .410's and I know from experience that it is a pitifully underpowered option for anything bigger than a large rabbit.
Yes it does kill stuff, yes i did kill a doe with a .410 slug from 75 yards when i was 12, but looking back, i never ever should have taken that shot given the ballistic capabilities (or incapabilities) of the .410 even in its most powerful of loads.

So if i would never ever again use it on a deer, why would i ever ever consider it as a primary weapon against a human, an organism with one of the most powerful wills to live of any living creature???

ugaarguy
October 26, 2011, 02:05 AM
I wouldn't be so sure. Five #00 balls per shot fired at 1200-1400 fps ain't nuthin' to sneeze at.
A .22 LR is nothing to sneeze at either. I wouldn't use a .22 LR for self defense either. A .410 shotgun with 18" bbl. can't even get a slug moving fast enough to penetrate to the FBI minimum 12" in 10% ballistic gel. Every handgun caliber from 9mmx19 on up, even out of a 5" or less handgun bbl, is a better choice for HD/SD than a .410 shotgun.

If you want a PGO Saiga .410 with a short bbl as a fun gun go for it. I think it would be a great time to shoot such a firearm. If you choose to use it for SD/HD that's your business, but at least you've been presented with facts on why there are better choices.

jojo200517
October 26, 2011, 02:39 AM
I'm not sure there is a .410 semi auto pistol grip shotgun out there that came from the factory pistol grip only to allow you to make it into an AOW instead of a SBS.

Its kinda a moot point, you would be manufacturing an AOW or a SBS either way it will cost ya $200 from the get go, AOW is $5 to TRANSFER $200 to make.

All that being said and considering spring thingy in the buttstock of many semi auto shotguns preventing pistol grip only configs your kinda stuck with either get a double barrel, pump, or some kinda gas piston system like a .410 saiga.

Of getting what you want in mind the .410 saiga seems to fit pretty well, do a standard conversion, leave off the stock, possibly cut off turnion piece that sticks out to attach stock and plug rear of receiver up. Once ya get SBS stamp approved and back you will probably want a good smith to chop it and make any adjustments that may be needed to the gas system to keep it reliable. I could see it coming in around the 1k price range or less with the stamp and smith work.

Mike1234567
October 26, 2011, 11:01 AM
I'm taking to heart the posts from folks who wrote that a .410 bore isn't adequate for SD. I'll research that more before going forward with this plan. If the .410 appears to be inadequate or marginal then I may step up to a 20ga but nothing beefier because I don't feel confident that I can properly control a PGO 12ga. If I do this it'll probably be based on a Saiga donor. However, to keep costs down, I might go with a Mossberg pump instead.

ETA: I did a little more research regarding ballistics of .410 bore buckshot and I remain convinced that it's more than adequate for HD. The gel tests I've seen show an average penetration of 15 to 25 inches depending on the #00 load and an average of 18 inches for #000. The #00 shells ranged from 2.5" to 3" with 8 or 9 pellets and the 3 inch #000 was 5 pellets. The #00 tests were through thick clothing. I just don't see how this is in any way "anemic".

Andrew Wyatt
October 26, 2011, 12:53 PM
I don't think you really see the flaw with your plan. the flaw with your plan is not the caliber. it's the fact that you are seriously considering a PGO.

Fred Fuller
October 26, 2011, 01:09 PM
Our old family gunsmith used to say that "any project is feasible if properly funded." He also used to say that you could get a Corvette station wagon built, if you really wanted one.

It is of no consequence to me what anyone wants, or has decided is the absolute bee's knees for whatever purpose. It's still a somewhat free country. If you want it, go for it. Just be sure and stay legal, so that you don't add felony issues to everything else.

If this whole thing really is a shotgun focused hardware experiment - and I'm willing to accept that as the case (the only other explanation I can see is that it's an effort at trollery, and I'm not willing to make that accusation at this point - even though gun board moderators with a few years of experience tend to be a little cynical sometimes :D), then as I see it, a rational person who really was interested in serious experimentation and not just gun gimmicks would be doing several things here, in sequence.

Number one, said rational person would be shooting a standard riot type shotgun of the chosen make/model/gauge extensively, establishing for themselves a personal baseline of performance and 'usability' for said shotgun in its conventional garb in a variety of situations. Conventional garb being defined as at least an 18" barrel and a full conventional pattern shoulder stock. This would involve shooting basic defensive shotgun drills/courses of fire with a competition timer and someone else present to run the timer and record the results. What kinds of drills? Well, keep it simple - clearing a plate rack at seven yards, for example. Or engaging multiple paper targets at whatever range/arrangement. Something like that.

The next step would be attempting the same drills or courses of fire with the same exact shotgun, only this time equipped with a PGO stock rather than the conventional shoulder stock. At least there would be a baseline of performance for both the shotgun and the shooter with which to compare results achieved with the PGO version.

At that point an educated guess could be made as to whether the AOW/SBS approach to defensive shotguns would really be useful for that person or not. The practical difference in OAL (overall length) of the gun is going to be just a few inches of barrel - 4" or 6" or so.

And using what I like to think of as a rational mind, if indeed I do have one of those, I have to ask - is it worth it? Is it worth the extra $ and the extra legal hassle just to shorten OAL on a shotgun by just a few inches?

My own answer over the many years I have considered this question has always been "no, it's just not worth it."

But YMMV.

pikid89
October 26, 2011, 03:40 PM
you seem to be accepting of using 20ga but not with a PGO, so why not get a 20 gauge with a collapsable stock...those are a dime a dozen for the saga

as others have said time and time again, PGO's are for door breachers and people who don't fully understand fighting with a shotgun

Mike1234567
October 26, 2011, 04:41 PM
Lee,

I understand that you don't know me. I also understand that you have a responsibility to kick out trolls. Please believe me when I tell you that I'm not a troll... at least not intentionally.

Regarding Corvette station wagons; There have been several. Google is your friend... and that's not a troll remark. :)

Regarding "drills"; I'm not physically capable of this. What I need is an easy-to-carry and shoot HD firearm. I think a PGO .410 bore with a light/laser combo is just the ticket. If I'm wrong and I actually have a violent home invasion then I may pay for my miscalculation with my life. I will practice at the range to ensure I can actually handle it as I should.

I "am" taking in what you and others are telling me but, being a huge PITA pragmatist, I must prove it to myself. It's not arrogance but, rather, insecurity regarding my own and everyone else's knowledge. Call it a scientific mindset without the intelligence to back up my theories. :D

Andrew Wyatt
October 26, 2011, 05:04 PM
If you're not physically capable of running the standard shotgun drills, you're not physically capable of running a shotgun.

Mike1234567
October 26, 2011, 09:53 PM
I can handle a shotgun just fine. I just can't run the drills. There are many types of disabilities. :)

pikid89
October 26, 2011, 10:27 PM
I'm pretty sure whatever you physical limitations, you would be better served with a stocked shotgun, regardless of the gauge,

the pgo format is not ergonomic nor easy to run quickly...not sure how many other ways it can be said...

Dave McCracken
October 27, 2011, 03:30 PM
Elsewhere I'm in a discussion on the merits of a stocked 410 pump as a HD tool for folks of limited physical strength and with divers disabilities.

IMO, this would be a better choice for many people than most handguns and certainly a PGO shotgun.

One possibility, an 1100 in 410 would handle like an M1 carbine and be more potent at close range.

ForumSurfer
October 27, 2011, 03:35 PM
I'm pretty sure whatever you physical limitations, you would be better served with a stocked shotgun, regardless of the gauge,

the pgo format is not ergonomic nor easy to run quickly...not sure how many other ways it can be said...

I'll agree. Even from a seated position in a tiny blind, I'll take a stocked shotgun. They just handle better.

ugaarguy
October 27, 2011, 10:49 PM
Mike, if you're going to SBS a Saiga anyway Ace rifle stocks is making a receiver block that replaces the stock on an unmodified Saiga with a pistol grip. Its intended use is to mount an ACE stock, but it would make conversion to PGO a drop in process mechanically. You could always add a fixed or collapsible folding stock as well if the PGO configuration proves less usable than you hope. http://riflestocks.com/store/product34.html

Mike1234567
October 28, 2011, 07:41 AM
^^^ Thanks for the link to the ACE grip. I'll definitely keep it in mind.

Cryogaijin
October 30, 2011, 09:16 AM
Just skimmed the thread, but noone suggested the Taurus Judge?

That said, my initial thought was the Saiga.

PT92
October 30, 2011, 04:02 PM
Does anyone make a semi-auto PGO .410 smooth bore firearm?

Since these are classified as "other" rather than shotguns then, the way I understand it, the barrels may be legally cut shorter than 18 inches provided the overall length is at least 26 inches and this does not require a tax stamp.

IMHO, a .410 PGO shorty sure seems like a great HD firearm.

BTW, I'm aware of Mossberg's PGO pump actions. I might go that route but I prefer a good semi-auto.

ETA: I can't spend more than $1000. I want a .410 bore due to lesser recoil compared to 12ga or 20ga. I'll be adding a light/laser combo for sight acquisition because I'm sure I'll be watching the threat instead of my sights. If the laser fails I'm sure I'll be point-shooting.
Have you considered a Taurus Judge or S&W equivalent? .410 in a handgun.

-Cheers

Just noticed that Cryogaijin previously had mentioned this.

Mike1234567
October 30, 2011, 04:51 PM
Have you considered a Taurus Judge or S&W equivalent? .410 in a handgun.

-Cheers

Just noticed that Cryogaijin previously had mentioned this.
If the Judge (or Governor) could be bought with a smooth bore and 10+ inch barrel then, yes, I'd seriously consider one. But the stoopid BATFE forces use of a rifled barrel.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 30, 2011, 06:36 PM
What I need is an easy-to-carry and shoot HD firearm.

First part isn't a problem unless you walk around your house/property with that thing in your arms all the time you are awake. Second part isn't entirely possible with a PGO shotgun.

ugaarguy
October 31, 2011, 01:29 AM
Mike1-7, have you looked at gun weight yet?

The Izmash website lists the factory Saiga .410 330mm bbl (approx 13") at 3.2 kg, or just a shade over 7lbs. - http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga-410.shtml The Beretta CX4 with 16.6" bbl weighs in at 5.75 lbs - http://www.berettausa.com/products/cx4-storm/ The Kel Tec Sub-2000 is downright anorexic at 4lbs even - http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/.

I'm not saying don't do your PGO / SBS Saiga build. I'm just trying to help with weight info since you want something easy to carry. Also based on the pictures of the 410-K on the Izmash website 13" looks to be about as short as you can go on a Saiga bbl before you run into the gas system & have to start doing really serious modifications.

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