How dangerous is a chambered Kahr to a gun with safety? CCW.


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Orion8472
October 26, 2011, 01:12 AM
For carry purposes, how safe is it to carry a kahr with one in the chamber compared to one that has a safety? Right now, I have a Springfield Armory and am in the process of selling it for something a bit thinner, lighter, and withOUT a safety, so I was going to get a Kahr CW9.

With all that said, the EMP is a fantastic gun. Never has given me a problem. However, wanting something a bit lighter and thinner is my focus. . . . NOT on "the quality of one gun over the other". I also know that the triggers on these two guns are completely different. The trigger of the EMP is typical nice 1911. I also like the feel and pull of the fat kahr trigger. Again, this is strictly about having a better suited [for me] carry gun.

My brother thinks it is a bad idea to get the kahr because it has no safety on it, . . . and could promote an accidental discharge far more easily than a gun with a safety. What is your feelings on this matter? For me, I think of it as, . . . the gun is as safe as you are with it. It won't discharge on its own.

So, . . . . discuss. Thanks! :)

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788Ham
October 26, 2011, 01:59 AM
Other than a revolver, I wouldn't have a pistol on the place without a safety!

No, the pistol won't discharge on its own, and you made the statement, "The gun is as safe as you are with it". How many times have you been in a SHTF situation? You'd best stay with a firearm and a safety! JMHO

REAPER4206969
October 26, 2011, 02:02 AM
Stop getting firearms advice from your brother.

ugaarguy
October 26, 2011, 02:19 AM
the gun is as safe as you are with it. It won't discharge on its own.
Your answer is correct. Tell your brother to keep his booger hook off the bang switch until he's ready to fire, and keep his gun a sturdy holster that covers the trigger. If he does that he won't have an AD. Failure to do that, and failure to follow the rest of the four rules, could very well lead to an ND - but not an AD.

167
October 26, 2011, 02:20 AM
Stop getting firearms advice from your brother.


+1

And a correction, it is not absent a safety, it is absent an external safety.

easyg
October 26, 2011, 04:16 AM
1) Keep your pistol in its holster till you are ready to shoot.

2) Keep your finger off the trigger till you have the target in your sights and are prepared to shoot.


Follow these two rules and you will never have a problem with the Kahr (or any other handgun for that matter).

Inebriated
October 26, 2011, 04:22 AM
Booger hook off the bang switch.

Every firearm should be carried in a proper holster... With a good holster, that trigger will never be pulled. And if you exercise basic gun-handling, you'll never touch the trigger.

I don't like safeties on defensive handguns, and feel 100% safe carrying a gun with out a physical safety.

Steve C
October 26, 2011, 04:56 AM
All modern guns you buy will have a safety, often several, but there are passive safeties and active safeties and some guns will have both. Lack of an active safety does not mean the gun has "no safety".

Of the 2 IMO the passive safeties are inherently more "safe" in that they can't be forgotten, inadvertently disengaged, or fumbled.

Finger off the trigger until ready to fire is the safety procedure one needs to make a habit of.

R.W.Dale
October 26, 2011, 04:58 AM
I utterly reject the notion that you can "be a little more careless" with a pistol with an external safety

posted via tapatalk using android.

engineer88
October 26, 2011, 05:18 AM
As others have wisely stated above my holster is my manual safety. It keeps the trigger from being depressed. If my gun is out of the holster, it is being put away, cleaned or fired only. Those scenarios involve me unloading my guns in different ways, but the end result is safe handling. In fact all of my carry guns sit in a holster in my safe if they remain loaded.

Dr_2_B
October 26, 2011, 08:08 AM
Your quality holster that covers the trigger is safety #1. Your careful handling (avoiding placing your finger on the trigger until ready to fire) is safety #2. I believe your well meaning brother isn't the best source of advice on this matter. The reason many of us feel that external manual safeties on defense pistols are unwise is that there are documented cases of people in life-threatening sit'ns failing to deactivate the safety in the heat of the moment and squeezing the trigger to no affect. The particular case that comes to mind is a jewelry store owner with a Walther PPK.

Hangingrock
October 26, 2011, 08:26 AM
How dangerous only as dangerous as you make it to be. Correct handling procedures and proper holster should prove not to be problematic.

Orion8472
October 26, 2011, 09:11 AM
Please no hatin' on the bro. :scrutiny: Thanks! :)

Most of what has been said here has been my thinking. The most important is what Dr_2_B illuded to. The "what if" of a manual safety and fumbling it during a highly stressful situation.

While at the gun store they all were saying that I should keep the EMP because "it is a far better gun". Where that may or may not be true, it is also less concealable. Why I find something like the CW9 as being a better CARRY gun [over the EMP]are:

Thinner profile
No external safety adding to width
No beavertail safety to potentially snag on clothes
No hammer to potentially snag on clothes
Lighter weight
Bore sits lower in my hand

EMP benefits:
Potentially more accurate
Magazine drops free
Night sites
1911 trigger

Screendmon
October 26, 2011, 09:16 AM
I carry my Kahr CM9 with one in the pipe always.

gb6491
October 26, 2011, 09:31 AM
EMP benefits:
Potentially more accurate
Magazine drops free
Night sites
1911 trigger
Not to knock the EMP, but I doubt it's potentially more accurate than the CW9 (at least mechanically). You may be able to shoot it more accurately because of the 1991 style trigger, but I think you will be surprised by how accurately you can shoot a CW9.
The mags drop free on my CW9 and there are night sights available for the "C" series Kahrs (I see your point though with the EMP already having them).
Regards,
Greg

ForumSurfer
October 26, 2011, 09:37 AM
the gun is as safe as you are with it. It won't discharge on its own. I agree with this. Make sure your holster covers the trigger guard and use some common sense. Don't use a flimsy holster that can crumple up and get caught inside the trigger guard while re-holstering. Many of us carry pistols like glocks, m&p's, kahrs or others that completely lack external safeties. Use good equipment, follow the 4 rules, familiarize yourself with it thoroughly before you start carrying it and you'll be good to go.

I also like the feel and pull of the fat kahr trigger. So do I. I feel that the cw9 and the cm9 are terrific for the price you pay, especially the cw9.

KAS1981
October 26, 2011, 09:51 AM
Long double action trigger & a firing pin block.

I'd say it's just fine.

sturmgewehr
October 26, 2011, 09:56 AM
The gun is 100% safe. The gun itself is inherently safe, meaning it won't fire itself and isn't going to fire if dropped.

The question you need to ask yourself is "how safe am I"?

Get a proper holster, practice to keep your finger off the trigger. Practice your presentation regularly in a safe manner.

I've carry a Kahr in my front pocket safely as do countless others.

Johannes_Paulsen
October 26, 2011, 10:03 AM
I have had a Kahr MK9 for over four years. It has,thus far, completely failed to go off when I wasn't pulling the trigger. Train regularly, drilling yourself to keep the finger off the trigger until sights on target & decision has been made to shoot, always use a holster (even/especially for pocket carry) and it will server you well.

That said, I recently purchased a Springfield EMP, with the intent of seeing if it might be a good EDC piece. Not because of the external safeties, but because the trigger on the Kahr is smooth but verrrryyyy long.... I recently took a combat handgun course with it, and decided that I might be willing to sacrifice the ability to pocket carry for that sweet 1911 trigger. (Which will require me to train/drill the extra step to turn the safety on/off when holstering/unholstering. Funny how it always comes back to training, no?)

Bottom line: these are both good pistols that will be just as safe (or 'unsafe') as their owner. It ultimately depends on what you're looking for and how much you want to spend.

EMC45
October 26, 2011, 10:04 AM
Every gun you pick up has a safety. It's between your ears!

Sulaco
October 26, 2011, 10:07 AM
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE.

YOU EITHER MEANT TO PULL THE TRIGGER OR YOU DIDN'T.

IF YOU DIDN'T, THE CORRECT TERM IS NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE.

THAT'S GUN GOSPEL FRIEND!

As for having a gun with a "safety", all of my guns, knives, hammers, bricks, anything I'd ever consider using as a weapon, have a safety. It's called my brain.

RinkRat
October 26, 2011, 10:09 AM
^^^ The *best* safety is the one between your ears ... use it wisely grasshopper !!

Check your firearm, check it again, and then once more.

Like a wise contractor measures three-times and cuts-once!!

Don't need no *unintended discharge* nether ...

MikePaiN
October 26, 2011, 10:11 AM
Over the years I've carried many Kahrs including my current CM9. I always carry "one in the chamber" and in 1oc appendix position.......Yep, all these years of that and what do you know..? My femoral artery and the boys are all still in tact ;)

lead slinger
October 26, 2011, 10:12 AM
I own the cw its a good light gun. I carry with one round loaded and I feel fine plus it also allows me to carry one more extra round. If you do go with the kahr look at khostler

Creature
October 26, 2011, 10:16 AM
As long as your Kahr is carried in a quality holster that fully covers the trigger, youre good to go.

Scimmia
October 26, 2011, 10:36 AM
Other than a revolver, I wouldn't have a pistol on the place without a safety!

I think this statement sums it up well. People seem to be OK with DA revolvers not having an external safety, but have a problem with a DAO pistol not having one? This is probably where your brother is coming from. IMO, the Kahr is just as safe as a DA revolver, and maybe even more safe than a Glock, which thousands upon thousands of people carry.

True, the Kahr has a lighter trigger than most DA revolvers, but the Glocks are quite a bit lighter than a Kahr and have a much shorter pull length.

ATLDave
October 26, 2011, 11:13 AM
The question is how many discreet decisions/actions do you want to have to take before the gun goes bang? Some people want to only have to take two - draw and pull the trigger. Some people want a third step in between those two; those people either carry unchambered or use guns with an external safety. There are valid reasons to have either preference. (And some people use a long and heavy trigger pull as a way to make the two-step process more deliberate.)

Are you increasing the chances of an ND/AD by not having a third step? I think you are. Are you also increasing the chances that the gun will not go bang quite as quickly as you want? Equally, yes. Pick your poison.

MCgunner
October 26, 2011, 11:23 AM
I don't like short, light triggers for pocket carry in a soft pocket holster. I don't know about Kahr. The ONE Kahr I've tried was short and light and no safety, the K9, but that's not a pocket gun, anyway. I'd carry it as with a Glock, in a STIFF belt holster that completely covers the trigger.

Personally, I carry mostly a Kel Tec P11 in a number 4 Blackhawk pocket holster which also fits my snubby I often carry. It has no safety, but it has a proper DA trigger. And, please, if you don't like the P11s trigger, don't tell me I can't hit anything with it. I'd be glad to prove it to you if you lived near my range. I'm quite accurate with it. All it takes is practice, as with any revolver DA. If you aren't willing to do the practice and training, you probably don't need to be carrying a gun. I consider a gun as a knife or fists, requires training and practice or you're more apt to get yourself killed with it than not.

I don't care for single action guns with safeties because I carry revolvers a lot. I like revolvers. I wanna keep my practice and carry with the same sort of trigger, long DA pull, draw and fire, no safeties. I think keeping the practice to one type of trigger is important because when the SHTF, you're going to be running on your muscle memory and training. You ain't got time to think which gun you have and whether it has a safety. JMHO, though.

JustSomeDude
October 26, 2011, 11:37 AM
The safety issue has been sufficiently dealt with here, I think. In the end, you have to make your own decision, but there are a couple of points I want to mention:

1.) The magazines can be made to drop free (http://kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7325)

2.) Try before you buy if possible. The trigger is VERY different from the 1911 you are used to, and some people can't get past it. Better to figure that out with range time fees rather than purchasing the gun and deciding you can't live with the trigger.

Skribs
October 26, 2011, 11:53 AM
In a DAO/striker-fired system, you don't need a manual safety. I have 4 handguns, a pair of Springfield XDm, a Ruger LCP, and a Ruger SP101. NONE of these have a manual safety. All but the newer XDm (so 3 of my handguns) I keep loaded 99% of the time (except when cleaning) with 1 in the chambered (well, 5 chambered in the SP101) and none of them have fired unless I pull the trigger.

I'd go with a Ruger LCP or LC9 over the Kahr, personally (half the price and Rugers are nice guns), but if you get the Kahr and keep one in the pipe, you'll be just fine.

The Lone Haranguer
October 26, 2011, 01:44 PM
I've got to say, this is the first I've heard of this about a Kahr. :scrutiny:

It is as safe as you are. You have to pull the trigger with about 7 lbs. of pressure, through nearly a three-quarter-inch arc. Don't pull the trigger when you aren't supposed to, and it will be fine.

Ben86
October 26, 2011, 02:22 PM
my brother thinks it is a bad idea to get the kahr because it has no safety on it, . . . and could promote an accidental discharge far more easily than a gun with a safety. What is your feelings on this matter? For me, I think of it as, . . . the gun is as safe as you are with it. It won't discharge on its own.

Does your brother also think this about DA revolvers?

The Kahr is a DAO pistol with a long weighty (but very nice and smooth) trigger pull. As long as you practice proper trigger discipline and carry it in a holster that protects the trigger you should be fine. I have a Kahr pm9 and carry it this way.

Skribs
October 26, 2011, 04:49 PM
The way I see it, it just goes to show that an uneducated snaggle-tooth hillbilly can learn the safety rules. I think you're overthinking (pun intended) the saying. Smart people can use stupid words, too.

What's worse than a dumb person using dumb words? A dumb person using smart words and making a total jerk of themselves.

DeepSouth
October 26, 2011, 05:23 PM
I have a KAHR, carry it everyday in my pocket. It has never gone off without the trigger being pulled, that's pretty safe. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard and it want go off.

27hand
October 26, 2011, 05:47 PM
I will not carry a gun with an external safety.
There is no need if you train well and often.

My daily carry guns happen to be Glock and Kahr

27

AJChenMPH
October 26, 2011, 07:16 PM
For what it's worth, I currently have a S&W 6906 on my hip with the safety off. I've never had a problem with my PM9, nor my Glock 26.

Sgt_R
October 26, 2011, 07:24 PM
I have a Kahr P380 in a Desantis Superfly in my left front pocket. It is loaded and there is a round chambered. I carry it this way everywhere I can legally carry.

I dislike manual safeties on handguns, and none of my handguns have one. I always carry with a round in the chamber. If I thought it was unsafe to carry the Kahr that way, I wouldn't own one.

R

1911Tuner
October 26, 2011, 07:34 PM
Let's not fight, gents. It's just the internet. I get a little bent when I hear "Shotty" and Remmy" myself...but it ain't worth spikin' my blood pressure over.

No loaded gun can ever be 100% safe. It's statistically impossible.

Pulling the trigger makes the gun fire. If you don't want it to fire...don't pull the trigger.

Be careful when reholstering that the trigger doesn't become entangled in an article of clothing, and be absolutely sure that your finger isn't in the trigger guard. That's why the US Cavalry asked Browning for a manual safety. Quick draw is sometimes necessary. Quick reholstering...not so much...unless you're charging into battle on top of a bucking, terrified horse.

Bottom line: Stay focused on what you're doing and be careful.

Is gun. Gun not safe. (Did I mention being careful?)

Orion8472
October 26, 2011, 08:16 PM
Well, thanks for the input. My point of view is, . . . with proper handling, any gun will be safe. I have a holster for my current carry [the EMP]. I put the EMP in the holster [after making sure it was unloaded] to see if the relatively soft leather magazine could actuate the trigger by pressing on the outside of the holster. After the test, I'm certain that this magazine would be a good choice for a CW9. So, I believe that I would still like to sell the EMP in order fo fund the lighter/thinner CW9. I prefer having a "one less step" type of carry gun and the CW9 is my first choice, due to the way it feels, quality of the trigger, and how low it sits in my hand. ALSO, due to the materials used in the CW9, there is far less probability of scratching/wear marks! Very important!!! :D

Seriously though, thanks for the input guys. If you have more to say, please do.

harmon rabb
October 26, 2011, 09:54 PM
The only thing I can add to this is that MOST people will shoot an EMP *much* better than a Kahr due to the 1911 trigger and ergos. I carry a Kahr CM9 to work, and an EMP outside of work. My choice of which I'd rather have with me if something bad went down isn't even a contest -- the EMP all day long, and twice on sunday. I'm very good with my EMP; you really don't want to try to mug me if I have it on me. The Kahr.... eh. If you're close to me, I'll hit you, but under stress and at a distance, I worry about making the shot with it.

Orion8472
October 26, 2011, 10:05 PM
I understand the trigger, but what do you mean "ergos"?

Where it is true that the EMP has a trigger that would prove a better candidate for accurate shooting, in a stress situation, few will have the time or the mental ability to make the accurate shot. As for ergos, I find the Kahr to be much more comfortable to hold.

1911Tuner
October 26, 2011, 10:17 PM
Some of you will no doubt notice that your posts have vanished or have been edited for content.

In the law enforcement profession, that there's known as...a clue. :)

Control
October 26, 2011, 10:40 PM
Be careful when reholstering that the trigger doesn't become entangled in an article of clothing

I'll second that.

There are periods of time when I wear a gun every day. I get up in the morning and on the gun goes. It comes off when I get home. One particular morning, the coffee was a little weak (not to spec for you tactical types).

On this morning, the 1911 came out of the small safe in the kitchen, a round was chambered, and the safety was put on. I swiped my shirt aside and put her in the holster like Iíve done a million times before.

The gun was riding a little sloppy in the holster so I just reached over to push the gun back down. I was thinking about bills, the crappy weather, and my stale toast I guess. .. half-awake because my kids were sick in the night.

The gun was still not holstered so I finally decided to look to see what the hell was happening. It was at that point that I realized my mistakeÖ not looking at the gun through the entire act of holstering it. I swear my heart skipped a beat. The corner of my shirt had somehow worked its way into the trigger guard. Without the manual 1911 safety, the corner of the shirt crammed into the holster would have pulled the trigger. BangÖ

On that day, despite how awesome I thought I was and how diligent I promised myself to be, I messed up. Iím not selling anything to anybody here. But for me, a manual safety is a very good thingÖ for that off day where the coffee isnít 100% spec.

MCgunner
October 26, 2011, 11:42 PM
There's nothing wrong with redundant safeties IMHO. I don't own one, but appreciate the XDs and their grip safety. When reholstering, don't grab the gun around the grip safety, added security against entanglement in clothing. And, a grip safety is nothing you have to THINK about when you need to be doin' and not thinkin'.

The Lone Haranguer
October 26, 2011, 11:53 PM
Kahr does make some manual safety models. In pictures, at least, they look rather awkward to operate. They seem to have gone a bit too far, IMO, in the direction of blending them into the gun's contours.

I don't take issue with having or using safeties, per se, just the notion that one must have them to be "safe." If you do choose a firearm that has one, choose the mode you wish to carry it in and stick with it. A gunfight is not the time to remember which mode you left it in. :uhoh:

JDGray
October 27, 2011, 10:20 PM
I've had alot of carry guns, and my CW9 is by far the best one I've had! I have sold all the rest, or use for range guns....Its been beat into you brain by now about the manual safety, or lack there of, so we won't go there, but here is a list of guns I have gotten rid of and why....
1. P345, to dang big
2. G23, dont like 40s
3. P239, to dang top heavy
4. CZ P01, to fat in the nose
5. P11, nasty trigger
6. P32, too small, shot 8" low at 25'
7. LCP, again, too small
8. Kimber UCII, too heavy, manual safety
The CW9 is darn near perfect!! And carried IWB, in an "Adams Holsters" holster, you truly forget you have it on:)
http://adamsholsters.com/store/
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/003-1.jpg

Orion8472
October 27, 2011, 11:34 PM
Thanks for your input JD. And nice shooting there.

Sgt_R
October 27, 2011, 11:39 PM
Speaking of shooting, here's that P380 I was taking about earlier. My wife's PM9 shoots about the same.

R

orionengnr
October 27, 2011, 11:46 PM
I started shooting before Gaston Glock was a twinkle in his momma's eye.
Back then there were 1911s (and a few other semi-auto pistols) and revolvers.

Most/all LE carried revolvers. Revolvers have no external safety, and modern semi-auto pistols are similar in function if not in design. Not coincidentally, most/all modern LE carry a Glock or similar pistol. A modern trigger-action pistol is as safe as a revolver...if you are.

If you are a disciplined operator, you will have no problem with a Kahr, Glock, XD, etc. If you are a danged fool, you stand a good chance of having a problem no matter what you carry.

Remember...software first, then hardware.

trex1310
October 28, 2011, 12:38 AM
Thousands of cops, federal agents, citizens, etc. walk around carrying Glocks that don't have a safety without a problem. Why can't you?

RNB65
October 28, 2011, 12:50 AM
I carry a Kahr P9. It's always in a holster -- either a FIST kydex pocket holster or a Milt Sparks IWB leather holster. No concerns.

Ben86
October 28, 2011, 01:10 AM
I understand the trigger, but what do you mean "ergos"?


The ergos (ergonomics) when speaking of guns refers to how well it fits your hand. This varies from person to person, as hands are shaped differently after all. The Kahr CW9 (and kahrs in general) have great ergos. I find the grip to fill my palm just enough and the angle to be just right.

Orion8472
October 28, 2011, 08:55 AM
Ben, that is what I was finding with the CW9. It fits and feels perfectly in my hand. . . and also rides low in bore axis. . . . definitely lower than the EMP. Ergonomically, I love the CW9.

Again, this has nothing to do with which gun may be "better". We are talking about the difference between a ~$1,100 metal gun to a ~$400 gun. It could be an "apple to oranges" thing. I'm more interested in which one would be a better carry gun for me.

It seems that I have already made up my own mind, and will just do it. Let someone else enjoy the EMP and pick up a CW9 after the EMP is sold.

ET
October 28, 2011, 11:00 AM
There isn't anything I can add to this discussion, but that has never stopped me before, so why start now? :uhoh: I carry a Glock 27 in a leather Blackhawk IWB holster in the Apex position. I also carry a Taurus TCP in a Nylon Blackhawk holster in my front pocket. Both guns have one in the pipe and both are pretty much aimed at the most treasured appendage on my body. I was a little leary at first, but after a week or two I never gave it another thought. BUT there is an extra incentive to be safe when the guns are aimed where they could do instant sex change surgery. (Bang, you're an it :what: ) A gun is only as safe as you are. If you want to learn how to be safe with your gun, just aim it at your crotch all day. I guarantee you that you will find a way to keep your finger off that trigger.:o

Jonah71
October 28, 2011, 11:09 AM
Booger hook off the bang switch.

Every firearm should be carried in a proper holster... With a good holster, that trigger will never be pulled. And if you exercise basic gun-handling, you'll never touch the trigger.

I don't like safeties on defensive handguns, and feel 100% safe carrying a gun with out a physical safety.
100% correct imo.

WRGADog
October 28, 2011, 04:20 PM
The gun always has a live round chambered. The key to gun safety is the operator. Always carry in a holster that covers the trigger and keep your fingor off the trigger until ready to fire. An external safety will not protect from careless handling of a firearm.

Orion8472
October 29, 2011, 10:22 AM
I guess my brother's point was that even a professional can have a lapse, and end up with a negligent discharge. There is a video of a "professional" showing guns to a room of young students saying that he "was the only one in this room with the experience to handle this gun. . . . . . . Now" *BANG*

But, I believe that the operator of any gun is the best safety. Be smart and there should never be a problem.

BamAlmighty
October 29, 2011, 01:01 PM
http://www.bigempty.comule.com/imgs/safety.jpg

ATLDave
October 29, 2011, 01:14 PM
Bam, good answer for those who are Delta Force-level operators or their equivalent in skill and in assumption of risk. Perhaps not a sufficient answer for the layperson and those surrounded by them.

ATLDave
October 29, 2011, 01:17 PM
But, I believe that the operator of any gun is the best safety. Be smart and there should never be a problem.

Same is true with cars. But there are many accidents every day. We don't say "my driving skills are my seat belt" and rip those out of cars, do we?

Just playing devils' advocate a bit here. :evil: But just as I buckle up every time I get behind the wheel, despite my intention to (and record of) driving safely, I only buy guns with either external safeties or with long, delibate trigger pulls (wheelguns). Others can make their own choices.

IMTHDUKE
October 29, 2011, 01:20 PM
I carry this one and it has a safety....

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/SDC12849.jpg

I carry this on and it has a safety...

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/BlackRose_best.jpg

Carry this one with a safety.....

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/62520996517966.jpg

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/safety.jpg

BamAlmighty
October 29, 2011, 06:26 PM
Bam, good answer for those who are Delta Force-level operators or their equivalent in skill and in assumption of risk. Perhaps not a sufficient answer for the layperson and those surrounded by them.

You don't have to be special forces to have COMMON SENSE.

I have carried the last 10 years round chambered, safety off without a single un intentional discharge and special training had nothing to do with it.

Orion8472
October 29, 2011, 06:33 PM
I like the seatbelt thing, but though I wear mine all the time, it is more about the other driver. The gun thing is all about me and my ability to keep smart for my own safety. Finger off the trigger and taking special care when holstering.

ATLDave
October 29, 2011, 06:38 PM
You don't have to be special forces to have COMMON SENSE.

And you don't have to be some sort of imbecile to have ever done something less-than-brilliant, or to have had a moment of fumble-fingered imperfection. You've never done something that, looking back, was a violation of "COMMON SENSE"?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a no-safety gun is necessarily a bad choice. Just recognize that you're working without a net, and doing so by choice. I'll take the net, personally.

ATLDave
October 29, 2011, 06:40 PM
I like the seatbelt thing, but though I wear mine all the time, it is more about the other driver. The gun thing is all about me and my ability to keep smart for my own safety. Finger off the trigger and taking special care when holstering.

The only instance where a seatbelt came into play for me was a result of another driver. But I still wear mine on deserted road where I'm the only car around. Anyone can have a momentary lapse. Keep the car between the ditches. But wear a seat belt in case you don't. Keep your finger (and any other object that could pull it) off the trigger. But consider a safety, or at least a long heavy pull, in case you don't?

Scimmia
October 30, 2011, 12:35 PM
But consider a safety, or at least a long heavy pull, in case you don't?

I've gotta ask, have you ever shot a Kahr? It IS a long, relatively heavy pull.

ATLDave
October 30, 2011, 12:43 PM
Scimmia, I have never shot a Kahr. I haven't really been trying to argue against Kahr's, just playing devil's advocate in favor of the OP's brother, and responding to the glib "my finger is my safety" stuff. My point is that it's easy to say "don't make a mistake and there won't be a problem," but mistakes are made every day.

For my guns, I either want the mistake to be very difficult to make (long, heavy pull as in a revolver) or multiple mistakes to be made (safety switched off, trigger pulled). I don't think having those preferences makes me a sissy, nor do I think they are an implicit admission of incompetence.

Orion8472
October 30, 2011, 01:51 PM
I have no problem with those who would like that extra added safety. Each person to his own feelings. I'm probably still going to get a kahr, chamber a round, and conceal it under my shirt.

It may be intersting to do a survey of those who carry a gun with no mechanical safety to see who had had issues with negligent/accidental discharges.

ATLDave
October 30, 2011, 03:07 PM
That's cool, Orion. Everybody has to make their own decisions as to the risks. I was just trying to point out that the brother in the OP was hardly being crazy or speaking without basis. Forgoing an external safety does remove one barrier to an ND. Is it the only barrier? Nope. But you're removing one.

As for the poll, I doubt that many/any of the people who had a no-safety ND are posting here today. They might be in jail, they might have sworn off guns, they might have lost their rights to own guns, they might have sold them all to pay a judgment in a lawsuit... No harm in asking, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in this case.

saltydog452
October 30, 2011, 03:58 PM
and admitedly ignorant, I don't have any reservations about IWB access for most platforms.

I just can't warm up to a 'safe action' system where the 'safety' in in the face of the trigger. The G 36 is fun to mess around with, but its kinda doubtful that I'll ever get all warm and fuzzy with IWB/pocket carry with it.

We all have preconceived notions about stuff. I guess thats one of mine.

salty

The Lone Haranguer
October 30, 2011, 04:10 PM
It is difficult for me to see how one could pull the trigger of a Kahr any way other than purposely. :scrutiny:

Ledgehammer
October 30, 2011, 05:24 PM
Most of the nd's I've read about on here happened because the operator forgot the gun was loaded. I don't see too many cases of the trigger catching on something and being pulled all the way. It does happen without a good holster. in the one incident where some guy posted on here about his glock nd. He had a complete crap holster that he shouldn't have been using.

franco45
October 31, 2011, 11:52 AM
As for the poll, I doubt that many/any of the people who had a no-safety ND are posting here today. They might be in jail, they might have sworn off guns, they might have lost their rights to own guns, they might have sold them all to pay a judgment in a lawsuit.

So when did you stop beating your wife sir? So anybody that disagrees with you is either wrong, embarrassed to admit their ND, in jail, sworn off guns, lost their rights to own them or sold all their guns to cover a law suit.

No harm in asking, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in this case.

Well now that's a strong argument.

Whatever you choose to carry practice practice practice.

ATLDave
October 31, 2011, 12:00 PM
Not at all, franco. Not even close. I freely acknowledge that many people who disagree with me on this point are ND-free. My point was solely that, when the poll results come back that 50 THR'ers carry a no-safety gun and haven't had an ND, that's not very good evidence that there aren't NDs with no-safety guns. It would merely reflect selection bias in the sample.

j.r.
October 31, 2011, 12:53 PM
The "what if" of a manual safety and fumbling it during a highly stressful situation.

It really doesn't make much difference if its a manual safety or not. If you want to use a manual safety, then you need to practice with it all the time. Just like a new gun or a new car, you need to learn how it works.

Also by practicing, drawing from the holster and having to unengaged the safety so it is first nature and it becomes a habit. If the only time you disengage the safety is the one time when you start shooting at the range and do not engage the safety when you holster, your defeating the purpose.

During a hi-stress situation , you are not going to have time to think. You will react like what you do in training. Practice, practice drawing and disengage the safety.

Good luck :)

franco45
October 31, 2011, 01:48 PM
Not at all, franco. Not even close. I freely acknowledge that many people who disagree with me on this point are ND-free. My point was solely that, when the poll results come back that 50 THR'ers carry a no-safety gun and haven't had an ND, that's not very good evidence that there aren't NDs with no-safety guns. It would merely reflect selection bias in the sample.

Dave, the same argument could be used against you. Instead I would argue that there are more ND's with guns that have external safeties than with guns with "no external" safeties. Is it on? Is it off? Be wrong one time and you will either have a ND or be unable to fire as needed. With all 3 of my Kahr handguns I always know what condition they are in, loaded with one in the pipe.

What it boils down to is make the choice that you feel comfortable with and then practice, practice, practice.

The Lone Haranguer
October 31, 2011, 02:04 PM
Same is true with cars. But there are many accidents every day. We don't say "my driving skills are my seat belt" and rip those out of cars, do we?
The seat belt and other safety equipment in your car, excluding error on your part, are for factors beyond your control. Pulling the trigger of a gun is 100% under your control.

ATLDave
October 31, 2011, 02:15 PM
franco45, I feel like you're kind of skipping around on me. I take it we're past your objection to my objection to a poll as evidence-of-absence, and are arguing against the larger proposition that safeties decrease the likelihood of an ND.

I generally think that's a pretty difficult position to defend. The case for external safeties is this:

It takes two mistakes (disengaging the safety and pulling the trigger) to cause an ND of a gun with an external safety. For a gun with no external safety, it only takes one (pulling the trigger).

"Not knowing" the condition/status of the safety does not reduce the number of errors to cause an ND with a safety-having gun. To the contrary, it is its own mistake (assuming the gun to be safed when it is not). Maybe you are suggesting that having a safety will cause users to trust the safety and carelessly place their finger on the trigger when they wouldn't with a no-safety gun. Well, that would also be an independent mistake, and I'm unaware of any evidence that this is what people do in real life.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that ND's are impossible with safetied guns. They are. But it takes an additional mistake to make a surpise bang with such a gun versus one without a safety. Everyone has to make their own decision about whether they want to remove that extra layer of mistake-insurance. My point is merely that someone who concludes they really want that extra layer of safety is hardly being irrational.

ATLDave
October 31, 2011, 02:18 PM
The seat belt and other safety equipment in your car, excluding error on your part, are for factors beyond your control. Pulling the trigger of a gun is 100% under your control.

But the safety belt, air bags, etc., don't exclude user error. They work even if I drive the car off the road all on my own. I don't plan to drive off the road, but why wouldn't I want a layer of safety to help me survive that kind of mistake if I ever make it?

I have never met a perfect human. Every system with a human in the loop is going to have error rates. That is a fact, jack. One can decide to risk the mistake, or one can buy an extra layer of safety.

franco45
October 31, 2011, 05:10 PM
What a waste of bandwidth. Just keep your finger off the trigger of any gun until you plan to shoot it. Is that so very hard to understand that it needs to be debated ad nauseam?

It really is that simple isn't it. I wouldn't say this is a waste of bandwidth though. I've enjoyed the thread.

The_Armed_Therapist
October 31, 2011, 08:24 PM
I would hypothesize that more accidental discharges and shooting accidents in general happen with guns that have safeties... either guns where it was mistakenly believed that the safety was on, or the safety didn't do its job.

franco45
October 31, 2011, 09:43 PM
franco45, I feel like you're kind of skipping around on me. I take it we're past your objection to my objection to a poll as evidence-of-absence, and are arguing against the larger proposition that safeties decrease the likelihood of an ND.

Dave, I think your objection to a poll as evidence of absence is a straw man. There are obviously ND's with guns with and without external manual safeties. That is a given. I think that the larger issue is whether or not safeties decrease the likelihood of discharge.

I would hypothesize that more accidental discharges and shooting accidents in general happen with guns that have safeties... either guns where it was mistakenly believed that the safety was on, or the safety didn't do its job.

I agree with this hypothesis. It appears you don't. Cest La Vie

Orion8472
October 31, 2011, 11:06 PM
I am going to go to a local range that rents guns and will rent a CW9 tomorrow. I'm interested in seeing how it handles.

hammerclaw56
November 1, 2011, 06:22 AM
I carry a pm9 every day in my front pocket in a galco pocket holster and feel 100% safe .The trigger is covered and it will not fire unless taken out of the holster and the trigger pulled. End of story

heeler
November 1, 2011, 10:44 AM
Last week I was watching a friends six month old Malonois for a few days and he has discovered his tail.
He chases it constantly.
This is no joke.
One of those days last week my brother came by to get some tools and I just happened to be cleaning my Kahr PM9,which is one of my daily carry's,and yes, with one in the pipe.
My other daily carry is an LCP,and yes,with one in the pipe.
After reassembling it he asked to hold it.
He asked me where the safety was.
When I replied it did not have one he was highly opinionated about such a lack of basic safety and so on.
I got up and brought two unloaded revolvers from the safe and placed them on the table and asked him if he could carry any of the three which would be his choice?
He immediately pointed to the S&W Model 37 Air Weight.
Why that one I asked?
His reply was that it was smaller,more reliable,and safer to carry.
I then pointed out to him none of the three guns on the table had safeties.
I could tell that point of fact made him think more and react less.
My friend picked up his Malonois on Sunday and he was still chasing his tail the day he picked him up and my friend told me he's trying to break Eclipse(dogs name) from what he considers an annoying habit.
True story.

TonyT
November 1, 2011, 11:11 AM
For carry purposes I use a gun without aby extrenal hammer or safeties - in a self defense situation I do not want anyhthing to snag. I also carry the gun fully loaded - a Kahr PM-9 with one in the chamber.

Orion8472
November 2, 2011, 12:40 AM
Well, I tested out the CW9 at the gun store [with rentals]. Very nice!! Yes, the trigger is a longer pull than I'm used to, but after about three magazines worth, I know that with practice, I could become much more proficient with that platform. It was lighter in recoil than my EMP, less muzzle flip, lighter, thinner, . . . that will be the carry gun I go with as soon as the EMP sells.

This has been a great thread and I appreciate all the thought provoking posts. :)

Ben86
November 2, 2011, 01:20 PM
I'm glad you got to try it out before you bought one. I see you came to the same conclusion about the gun I did. I hope your future CW9 serves you well.

Orion8472
November 2, 2011, 10:34 PM
Thanks, Ben. I hope it does as well. Just have to get some stuff sold before I can get it.

Well, I CAN get one now, but would rather have the money from something sold first.

trex1310
November 2, 2011, 11:32 PM
All these guns have safeties of one type or another. Most people don't
have the wherewithall to read the maual and follow the instructions.
They would rather shoot themselves or someone else by not keeping
their finger out of the trigger guard.

KAS1981
November 2, 2011, 11:51 PM
My brother purchased a Smith & Wesson SD40 a while back. He was pretty excited.

After checking out the gun for a little bit, he says to me, "they only thing about is....well.....where's the safety?"

I field stripped it and showed him how a firing pin block mechanism works, after that he was OK with it.

A lot of folks don't know what a firing pin block is. Even folks that have been around firearms throughout their lives, that includes me up until about year and a half ago. Granted, it's another mechanical device that CAN fail, but it IS a safety nonetheless.

jeepmor
November 3, 2011, 02:02 AM
Kahr triggers are the best DAO triggers I've used. Long, but light and smooth. My Kahr CW45 is a dream to shoot, but the grip is thin to me as I'm used to a double stack 45 in the same CCW format, and I have big hands.

I'm not ditching my Kahr though, it's great, just not my go to gun yet.

The_Armed_Therapist
November 10, 2011, 12:06 PM
I agree with this hypothesis. It appears you don't. Cest La Vie

I'm confused... Were you saying that I don't agree with what I said? Or were you talking to Dave?

OlympicFox
November 11, 2011, 02:38 AM
It is difficult for me to see how one could pull the trigger of a Kahr any way other than purposely. :scrutiny:
I have to agree with this one.

IMO, the trigger on a Kahr is just like that of a really good revolver - it's long and takes some effort. The end result is a trigger that's both very easy to use in the field and very difficult to use accidentally.

OTOH, the triggers on the typical "safe action" pistol are too short to be truly safe IMHO. They may have the same trigger weight as a Kahr, but the length of the pull is so short that it's all too easy to pull the trigger prematurely in a self-defense situation.

It's easy to say that you should keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, but there is that situation where you're facing an armed bad guy but you want to give him a chance to back off first before pulling the trigger. In that situation, your finger is on the trigger waiting for the final decision. I've been there and I'm glad that the gun didn't have a short/light trigger because the bad guy did have a change of heart & I was able to stand down without pulling the trigger even though my finger was definitely in the ready position.

My first carry gun was an M&P 9c with a 'safe action' trigger. Nice gun, but it only took me a couple of trips to the range to realize the trigger was too short and easy to fire in that kind of situation where I'm ready to shoot but . . . oops. So, I traded it for a Sig. Loved the Sig, but that first DA shot was always low & left so . . . I bought a Kahr K9 for carry. Then the wife bought a CM9. I didn't take long to realize that the 19 ounce CM9 was a lot more comfortable to carry than the 30 ounce K9, so I got a PM40 for myself.

One of the things I really like about the Kahr's is that I can draw quickly, laser the target with my finger on the trigger, staged and ready to fire BUT not fire because of the long trigger pull. Hopefully, I'll never be in a situation again where I need to point my gun at someone, but if it does happen I want a gun in my hand that doesn't lend itself to going bang without that long & deliberate trigger pull.

This doesn't mean that I don't occasionally carry something else. Sometimes, it's one of our Sigs, or a 1911 or the little J-frame 357. Several thousand rounds of practice has mostly cured that DA first shot problem with the Sigs, but the safety on the 1911 still takes some thought. Not much but some. Sure, autopilot gets the safety off most of the time, but every once in a while the autopilot is out to lunch. That's embarrassing in a match, but deadly on the streets.

Orion8472
November 13, 2011, 10:43 AM
Good post, OlympicFox. This is kinda where I'm at now. And there is something to be said about the "giving the bad guy a chance to back down". In such a situation, I can see how a person's muscle control COULD be affected by the tense situation and [with a short light trigger] accidently let one fly. I will be getting a CW9 soon. MAYBE the CM9 if I got a pinky finger extension for the magazines.

OlympicFox
November 14, 2011, 04:16 AM
Hmmm, CM9 vs. CW9 vs. PM9.

Personally, I prefer the PM9, but then I also prefer my defensive guns in black with night sights. I guess, I'm also a bit of a snob because I like the finish of the PM series over the CW series.

As for the CW vs. CM?

My parameters for a carry gun are:


Absolutely reliable with the ammunition used. I really don't care if it's unreliable with other ammo as long as it is absolutely, positively reliable with two top notch rounds. The largest caliber I'm comfortable with carrying. Frankly, in my case that's a moving target. Most days, it's the Kahr PM40, the other days might be the Kahr K9, or the Sig P238 - all with lasers. The smallest and lightest gun available in that caliber. A long & silky smooth DA trigger. The simplest possible battery of arms The highest quality I can afford - or my wife will let me have. :D


Rule #1. A no-brainer. Well, some folks want their guns to run any ammo. Why, I don't really know. For example, my PM40 is a fussy eater, just like my granddaughter, but it just loves Cor-Bon 135gr JHP and Hornady FTX Critical Defense. Next week it will get tested on Winchester Ranger-T as a possible third choice. Don't really need anything else. BTW, I also chrono everything I shoot. Some ammo doesn't perform as advertised - I've found some +P that actually runs slower than standard load stuff of the same brand and weight. Go figure. I'm not likely to carry Ammo R that chrono's at 1050 fps when Ammo C chrono's at 1240 fps.

Rule #2. You may have noticed that Rule #2 doesn't include a 45. Well, after months and months of deliberation, I finally took care of that this afternoon and ordered a Dan Wesson CCO Bobtail. :D Yeah, the 1911 breaks two rules, but it's just not possible to be a genuine gun nut without a good 1911 carry gun & this one is the real McCoy. Besides, the Sig P238 already broke the same rules and it's a favorite of mine, especially when loaded with +P 90 gr Buffalo Bore running at close to 1200 fps.

Rule #3. This answers the CW vs. CM question and explains why my wife has a CM9 instead of a CW9 & my PM40 instead of a K40 or Sig P229. When we shoot for fun & games, we shoot a larger & heavier gun, like the Sig P226 Elite Stainless. We practice regularly with the carry guns, but not for the fun of it - the exception being the Kahr K9 loaded with competition ammo. :p

Rule #4. Our primary carry guns are the three Kahr's and a J-frame - all with exceptionally nice DA triggers. There are two exceptions; the 1911 and the Sig P238. They are just too nice to not have, but they will never be our primary carry guns.

Rule #5. No manual safety needed. Maybe someday I'll get a Para LDA?

Rule #6. Self explanatory. But, some people don't subscribe to it. A friend of mine always buys the bargain brands, the clones of the real deal, etc. You'd recognize him as the one that usually has to rack his slide at least once or twice during a match. Then there is the issue that I haven't told the wife yet about the new Dan Wesson. :D


The bottom line? I have rather clear ideas on what the ideal carry gun is, and in spite of that I've found that it varies according to the situation, the weather, as well as my mood. Seems a bit silly carrying a big 1911 around the house on a warm summer day, so the little Sig P238 in a pocket holster is great. OTOH, the same little Sig seems inadequate when I'm out & about in the winter and everyone is bundled up with several layers to stay warm - a good time to have a 40 or 45. But, some days, I'm just not in the mood to carry two pounds of steel and lead, other days I love the feel of it. Choices are good.

m2steven
November 14, 2011, 07:23 PM
I won't be macho here. Any pistol without a safety is more dangerous than a pistol with one if you pull the trigger when you don't need nor want to, if you can't get your weapon out of your pocket/holster without grabbing teh trigger, etc. A safety is a great thing. If you don't have a pistol with a safety, you are subject to the rule of never making a mistake, or making a huge one.

IMTHDUKE
November 14, 2011, 07:31 PM
Interesting how that there are those that say, " I would not carry a SA cocked and locked with one in the pipe". But it has a safety.

Then those who say, " I would not carry a DA, without a safety".

So here is your solution....a gun with one in the pipe, uncocked till deployed and without a safety.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/P7.jpg

OlympicFox
November 15, 2011, 03:53 AM
Wouldn't it be nice if a manual safety actually did make gun safer? Unfortunately, it doesn't. The problem isn't so much that the safety itself is defective - although that is a real possibility. Many guns will, such as a Taurus I have, that will fire even though the safety is on. All one has to do is pull the trigger a bit harder and bang.

The bigger problems are:

1. Human nature is what it is. We make assumptions. Like if the gun has a safety, then it must be safer. Right? A little carelessness or neglect to ensure the safety is on and bang. It's the same deal as the guns that fire when folks thought they were unloaded - but failed to actually check.

2. Human nature is still what it is. We rely on safety devices and get lazy about our personal responsibility. While you might think you're absolutely positively never going to make that mistake, there is still a good chance that you will.

3. Then there is the distinct possibility that the safety got swept off. This is especially possible for concealed carry. I kinda figure that anyone that can't get their gun out of their holster without risking getting the finger on the trigger isn't assured of getting the gun out of the holster without disengaging the safety either. How easy is it for someone to disengage the safety while deploying the gun from a IWB holster? Easy enough for anyone that hasn't practiced enough to be able to get the gun at the close ready before their finger gets on the trigger. Then there are those ambi safeties. At the end of the day when a friend de-gunned, he discovered his safety had been swept off on his Kimber. Perhaps during one of the times he was getting into his truck and pulling down the tail of his jacket? Or the guy I know that shot his partner when reholstering his 1911; forgot to put the safety back on. Oops.

4. Lastly, there is the 'safety issue' of having manual safety on a defensive handgun that must be disengaged before the user can successfully deploy the gun. It's no secret that the brain turns to mush when the SHTF. How easy is it to forget to flick off the safety when you are facing a bad guy with a gun and you're trying to shoot him before he shoots you? Well, if you haven't practiced enough for muscle memory to take over with a 100% money back guarantee, you might have a problem. Hence the fact that 'safety' must include the ability of the user to deploy the gun without forgetting to disengage the retention holster or to disengage the safety.


I was at a gun shop in Sunny CA this spring and the owner was telling me about two local law enforcement agencies that had switched to Glocks the year before. One agency had all the LEOs go through a 40 hour training program with the Glocks and hadn't had any problems. The other agency only had a 3-hour training program for the new gun and had 3 officers shoot themselves in the leg in the first year. A little sloppiness and a presumption about the mechanical safety of the gun make a dangerous combination.

While it is still possible to have an unintentional discharge with any gun, the Beretta's, Sig's and Kahr's with their long & purposeful DA triggers require an equally long and purposeful pull on the trigger before firing. Could be why NYPD requires their Glock be equipped with an 11# trigger, while my Kahr K9 with an NYPD trigger has a 5.6# trigger pull - just half of what they require for a Glock. Why? My hunch is that it's the long pull of the Kahr trigger negates the need for the extra heavy pull on an NYPD Glock.

So, until someone does an extensive study comparing the actual number of unintentional discharges with various trigger & safety designs, the best we can do is take educated guesses. Unfortunately, most folks are a lot better at making assumptions. :eek:

For me, that means that I'll carry one of my Kahr's most of the time, and I'll be quite comfortable literally and with my ability to carry and deploy the gun safely. The rest of the time, I'll carry a 1911 and be less comfortable and always just a bit anxious about the manual safety. Is it on? Will I remember to flick it off if I need to?

OlympicFox
November 15, 2011, 03:56 AM
Interesting how that there are those that say, " I would not carry a SA cocked and locked with one in the pipe". But it has a safety.

Then those who say, " I would not carry a DA, without a safety".

So here is your solution....a gun with one in the pipe, uncocked till deployed and without a safety.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/P7.jpg
Neat gun, but I don't understand how it can prevent someone from pulling the trigger prematurely??? And what if it doesn't work? There are folks out there that carry, carry, carry and virtually never clean their gun. Any complication increases the probability of a malfunction. KISS.

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