Anyone used a lockout die yet?


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22lr
October 26, 2011, 10:25 PM
So this looks like a very promising concept. Sure it wont catch a very small difference but it looks like it would be just the ticket in eliminating almost all double charges/over charges or bad squibs. Id be interested in trying one out, would be a great safety check for those who are worried about making mistakes. So what do the more experienced reloaders think about this?

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/536792/rcbs-lock-out-die

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Scott_R
October 26, 2011, 10:44 PM
I use it with 45acp. Great product.

BYJO4
October 26, 2011, 10:49 PM
I use a Lockout Die for each of my pistol calibers that I load for. My dies will basically lock press if powder thrown is plus or minus 2 grains of desired setting.

cfullgraf
October 26, 2011, 10:58 PM
Yes, the RCBS lock out die looks like a good safety feature. It does let you focus on other things and you do not have to rmeember to look at the die every cycle.

I have a Hornady powder cop die that I must look at each cycle.

A word of caution, develop a procedure in your reloading where you do not by-pass the powder check die.

For instance, I have an auto-indexing press and if I remove a case from the press for any reason, I do not replace it. I let the empty location on the shell holder continue through. The removed case gets fed back in at the beginning of the process.

That way, i never by-pass the powder check die, whether by design or by mistake. Lets the die do its job.

armarsh
October 26, 2011, 11:20 PM
The lockout die is the real deal. Worth every cent of the $45 or so it costs.

Only real downside is it consumes a station on your press.

22lr
October 26, 2011, 11:24 PM
How long has this been out? I swear I saw the add on theoutdoorchannel today for the first time. Looked like an ingenious idea, I definitely need to buy a new progressive press now.

Scott_R
October 27, 2011, 12:14 AM
I bought mine used over 10 years ago. I paid $24 for it.

RhinoDefense
October 27, 2011, 02:27 PM
These and similar dies have been out for many years.

My opinion is save your money and just pay attention to what you are doing.

Crunchy Frog
October 27, 2011, 07:42 PM
There are a couple of brands of "powder cop" or "powder check" dies (Hornady and RCBS make them) but only one RCBS Lockout Die.

I chose a five station press with the intention to use a station for this die.

Because my Hornady powder measure is case activated, I wondered if the Lockout Die was really necessary. The first time it "worked" it was because I had mistakenly included a .357 Magnum case in my batch of .38 Special loads. Since then it has "activated" a couple of times when something went amiss. Much better catch it in the press than in the gun.

I'm sold.

22lr
October 27, 2011, 11:15 PM
Well dang I guess I just have never seen em before, here I thought this was something brand new on the market. I guess you can learn something new everyday.

Tom488
October 28, 2011, 02:01 AM
These and similar dies have been out for many years.

My opinion is save your money and just pay attention to what you are doing.
Yep. Seat belts have been around forever, too. I say just drive careful, and you won't need to worry.

Eyeballing the powder in each case is a good practice, but one can become complacent, and miss an over/under-charge.

Powder check/powder cop dies are slightly better, but still require the operator pay 100% attention 100% of the time. Again, an incorrect charge can be missed.

Dillon's powder check is better still, offering an audible tone that would be very difficult to ignore.

My opinion is the RCBS lock-out die is best, as the operation CAN NOT continue with a (sufficiently) incorrect powder charge.

True - if you never screw up, you'll never need it. But - my vehicles have seatbelts, my house has fire extinguishers, and my presses have lock-out dies. Because I'm not perfect... and I freely admit it.

RhinoDefense
October 28, 2011, 03:18 AM
If one becomes complacent, they shouldn't be reloading.

I've reloaded millions of rounds on my Dillons by hand without the aid of a powder check die and never ever had a problem with my ammunition.

If you like crutches rather than paying attention, by all means waste your money on a powder check die.

fguffey
October 28, 2011, 06:47 AM
I will not load on a progressive press without a lock-out die, I started with the 5 position RCBS Piggy Back, then went to the Dillon 550 B, Dillon suggested using their dies, that arrangement did not work for me when seating on one position and crimping on another, so they said I could use my RCBS dies, or Lyman, or Hornady, Etc.. Fast forward: I am at the range with another reloader, between us is a shooter/reloader? doing everything he can to pull the trigger, pull the hammer back, do anything, not possible, his cylinder is locked up on his 357 Model 66 S&W, this does not escape our attention so we stop everything and get involved.

The man in the middle used a Dillon 550 B to load his ammo, one case did not get powder, it got a primer and bullet. When chambered and fired the primer pushed the bullet into the forcing cone but not far enough to clear the cylinder. Anyhow we drove the bullet back into the cylinder then removed the case and bullet, to our surprise he started to load-um up again, we stopped that to, one case did not get powder, we do not know if the next case got double charged, we offered him ammo, we offered to help him with his reloading, we offered to loan him equipment including scales, we offered to stop shooting, leave and return with a scale, brand of his choice, he packed up and left. I will not load on a progressive press without a lock out die for pistol or a powder die for rifle/bottle neck cases.

And I still go to the range with wood drivers/dowels and a hammer, JIC, just incase I need to drive a bullet back into the cylinder, or I find someone struggling to pull the trigger, or hammer.

F. Guffey

Scott_R
October 28, 2011, 09:51 AM
If one becomes complacent, they shouldn't be reloading.

I've reloaded millions of rounds on my Dillons by hand without the aid of a powder check die and never ever had a problem with my ammunition.

If you like crutches rather than paying attention, by all means waste your money on a powder check die.

Wow. Ain't you awesome. [ not a question ]

loadedround
October 28, 2011, 10:45 AM
I started using a RCBS Lockout Die several months ago when I bought my Dillon 650 progressive press. So far I haven't had a poblem with a over/under charge; but experimented with an empty case doing just that and it works perfectly with my press. I bought it used online for 25.00 and it was more than 1/2 the price of Dillon's Fail Safe Die. I'm frugal. :)

RustyFN
October 28, 2011, 12:48 PM
No, I don't need one I look in every case.

gregj
October 28, 2011, 03:46 PM
Yes, it replaced the Hornady Powder Cop die I was using in my LNL. I use it for 45ACP and 9mm, as these I reload in quantity.

Shmackey
October 28, 2011, 04:23 PM
I used to scoff at the idea until I had a squib one day. Now I use one, and I think they're brilliant.

Part of my scoffing was my contention that I look in every case. I even had a light on my press just for that. Still had a squib somehow.

I will say that the only one that makes sense is the proper RCBS Lockout Die. The ones that just poke up when they hit powder, like the Hornady Powder Cop and the RCBS equivalent, are no different from just looking into the case.

altitude_19
October 29, 2011, 11:22 AM
If you wonder about accuracy, I tested mine with 45 ACP and determined it tends to trips when charges deviate more than .3 gr. And .3 isn't nearly enough to take my rounds out of safe tolerance. It most commonly goes off whan some sort of hangup has prevented the auto prime from functioning and the charge leaks out of the primer hole.

altitude_19
October 29, 2011, 11:26 AM
If one becomes complacent, they shouldn't be reloading.
If one becomes complacent, one is human. It's a foolish man who believes himself to be above mistakes. Airbags, insurance, seatbelts, anti-lock brakes, drop-safe handgun design, the doorstops in your house, and crash barriers at the race track all agree with me on this one.

CHALK22
October 29, 2011, 04:26 PM
I got mine from Opticsplanet. http://www.opticsplanet.net/rcbs-lock-out-die-87540.html They have it for $50.99, but they ship orders free over $50.00

RCBS has a $10 rebate on any purchase over $50. http://www.rcbs.com/pdf/RC201_WebRebateCoupon.pdfSo the end result is $40.99 shipped.

As much as I love Midway, I like $6.00 more! HTH

RhinoDefense
October 29, 2011, 05:02 PM
If one becomes complacent, one is human. It's a foolish man who believes himself to be above mistakes. Airbags, insurance, seatbelts, anti-lock brakes, drop-safe handgun design, the doorstops in your house, and crash barriers at the race track all agree with me on this one.
There is no room for error when engineering a small explosion two feet from your face.

altitude_19
October 29, 2011, 06:41 PM
There is no room for error when engineering a small explosion two feet from your face.
Almost sounds like a mechanism that compensates for human error is a good idea. NO room for error? And I was so excited about using that "random" setting on my powder scale...

EddieNFL
October 29, 2011, 06:53 PM
Airbags, insurance, seatbelts, anti-lock brakes, drop-safe handgun design, the doorstops in your house, and crash barriers at the race track all agree with me on this one.

That explains why so many people drive like idiots and have casual attitudes about handling firearms.

altitude_19
October 29, 2011, 08:30 PM
That explains why so many people drive like idiots and have casual attitudes about handling firearms.
Also explains how otherwise careful drivers and shooters manage to survive the one mistake they make on the road/range that may have otherwise ended them.

RustyFN
October 29, 2011, 10:28 PM
Also explains how otherwise careful drivers and shooters manage to survive the one mistake they make on the road/range that may have otherwise ended them.

Then when you develop poor safety habbits because you put all of your confidence in the powder cop to catch everything and it fails what are you going to blame it on, poor safety or poor mechanical device. In my opinion I see it as a crutch for poor or lazy safety, just like the FCD right.

altitude_19
October 30, 2011, 09:46 AM
That's just about enough straw-manning. Nobody is advocating the use of such a product to compensate for poor safety habits (some seem to be saying so to justify their not purchasing another "newfangled gimmick"). I'm quite content to say I've never had an over OR undercharged round, but I still use it. I'm not perfect, maybe somebody here is (in their own mind at least). If you want something to catch your ONE mistake before it costs you a gun/thumb, a lockout die would fit the bill. If it ain't for you, just as well. If, however you want to claim the use of such a tool is indicative of a lazy/moronic/complacent/whatever attitude, I'd recommend you pull your ABS system, disable your collision fuel cutoff switch, and scrap your airbags...ya know, just for consistency.

RhinoDefense
October 30, 2011, 12:05 PM
Vehicle equipment is far different than reloading equipment, since most vehicle safety equipment is mandated. Not much choice in the matter and removing such equipment voids the warranty. This is much different than a luxury purchase on a reloading press.

higgite
October 30, 2011, 12:18 PM
You make it sound as if there is something wrong with a "luxury" purchase of a back up safety device. I wear belts and suspenders. Which one is the luxury?

altitude_19
October 30, 2011, 01:09 PM
Vehicle equipment is far different than reloading equipment, since most vehicle safety equipment is mandated. Not much choice in the matter and removing such equipment voids the warranty. This is much different than a luxury purchase on a reloading press.
Mandated for manufacture. You can pull it yourself. I'll bet a dollar your rig isn't under warranty any more anyway, and who needs a warranty anyway? As long as you're careful, right? That is unless you're some high-roller with the dough to throw at a new ride these days. In which case, you need not conern yourself with how little people spend a paltry $45.
I wear belts and suspenders. Which one is the luxury?
A fine point...but I doubt it will land. You MUST be a safety Nazi and even indicating for a moment you're human and might want a safety net means you subconsciously realize your own boundless incompetence!!!! (sarcasm intended)

RhinoDefense
October 30, 2011, 01:31 PM
Yes I drive new vehicles under lease and turn them in before the warranty expires.

Your attempted analogy of vehicle equipment is apples to oranges with regard to reloading equipment, as is your warranty argument.

Powder check type dies and post sizing dies don't allow the reloader to learn the proper method and process of assembling ammunition. All these special dies are not necessary if you pay attention to what you are doing. If you want to waste money, go ahead. It's not coming out of my wallet.

armarsh
October 30, 2011, 01:53 PM
...Powder check type dies and post sizing dies don't allow the reloader to learn the proper method and process of assembling ammunition.

How does one learn to be perfect? Please tell us your method.

RhinoDefense
October 30, 2011, 02:20 PM
Focus on making the round in front of you correctly and safely, then repeat the process.

altitude_19
October 30, 2011, 02:35 PM
How does one learn to be perfect? Please tell us your method.
Seconded. And what exactly does one not learn through using this tool? Seems you only use a tool to check powder level if you've learned how critical it is for it to be correct. It's just a hedge against a freak incident where something goes wrong and a reloader (despite their perfection complex) doesn't catch it. Thunder crashing outside the window is enough to disrupt the sequence and cause you to miss checking the single casing with the improper charge. But I think this one has been hi-jacked enough and we've all contributed to a thread veering off course.

nojoke
October 30, 2011, 03:18 PM
I use a similar die, except it goes "beep" instead of total lock up.
Dillon powder check die.

Lost Sheep
October 30, 2011, 05:59 PM
Powder check type dies and post sizing dies don't allow the reloader to learn the proper method and process of assembling ammunition.
Just exactly how does a powder check die prevent the reloader from learning proper method and process?

I do see your point and used to agree with your position. Crutches encourage sloppy behavior.

In some people. The powder check die can prevent a small mistake from becoming a big problem. Anti-lock brakes on my car (by the way, not mandated by any law in this country and at first introduction were an additional cost option) DO reduce the bad effects of my own shortcomings. They get a false sense of security and the formerly assiduous become lax.

Other people are immune to this malady of laziness.

I encourage you to not paint the latter with the paint belonging to the former.

I now recognize that safety features do not necessarily rob me of my skills. I still feather my brakes in sloppy driving weather, and believe my Anti-lock brakes (with their audible operation providing feedback) have made me a better driver.

The idea that using a powder COP inhibits good technique is the same logic that names all gun owners as criminals, paranoids or fanatics. Just because I have a gun does not make me a murderer and neither does possession of a powder check die make me a sloppy loader.

Using a powder COP may tell the world that I am a sloppy loader, or it may tell the world that I am ultra-cautious. But I don't think anyone can tell which by just reading one post.

Lost Sheep

Lost Sheep
October 30, 2011, 06:06 PM
The lockout die is the real deal. Worth every cent of the $45 or so it costs.

Check out this thread for how to make one of your own (at least, a powder check die, if not an actual lockout die - thanks to armarsh for pointing that out. I have neither and the distinction thus makes little difference to me.)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=622571

Lost Sheep

armarsh
October 30, 2011, 07:21 PM
Check out this thread for how to make one of your own

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=622571

Lost Sheep

That is a nice handmade powder cop die, but it is not a lockout die.

RustyFN
October 30, 2011, 07:29 PM
Using a powder COP may tell the world that I am a sloppy loader, or it may tell the world that I am ultra-cautious. But I don't think anyone can tell which by just reading one post.

Exactly. And it's the same thing with all of the people that say the only people that use a FCD are people that can't make good ammo without it. I believe some people with a powder cop die will over time pay less and less attention to what is going on and depend more on the die to catch every problem. Some people will pay very close attention until the day they die and catch the problem before the powder die. I have a friend in town that runs one on a Dillon 650 ( not sure which brand ) and has had a few squibs. I have seen him load. He had a case feeder and sets the bullets on by hand. He is pulling the handle so fast that he is paying no attention to anything else going on. One of my few friends who's reloads I won't shoot.

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