Best way to change workplace policy?


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Notbeinfringed
October 26, 2011, 10:49 PM
Long time reader, first time poster here. Like the title says, I am looking for peoples opinions on the best way to change an anti-gun company policy. The company I work for has a policy that guns, weapons or "dangerous devices" are not allowed on company property - even locked in my car in the parking lot. The policy even goes so far as to say that a dangerous device is anything used with the intent to cause harm even for self defense! So, according to the policy, if I use a tire iron to defend myself from a mugger in the parking lot, I could be fired. Add to that my workplace isn't exactly in the safest place and our "security" is notably sparse after dark and the folks doing the job during the day I think I could outrun at a slow jog... :scrutiny: While my workplace isn't open to the public, it still sucks that I have to disarm at home before going to work.

I was thinking about this the other day and thinking that if this was a business, I wouldn't shop there. Of course, then I remembered that we do sell stuff! While I would love to just jump out and suggest everyone write letters and boycott, I do like a paycheck and wonder if the right thing to do wouldn't be to try and change things internally. So, what say you? Throw it out to the public or try to get corporate HR to change company policy?

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archigos
October 26, 2011, 11:15 PM
Quite frankly, I think you're going to find two common responses - "Concealed is concealed" and "Judged by 12 or carried by 6".
Unfortunately, depending on your company, I don't know how much success you're going to have in changing the company policy unless you're pretty high up the food chain. My fear would be that it would call attention to myself.

beatledog7
October 26, 2011, 11:24 PM
Best way to change workplace policy?

Become the boss. Done and done.

kayak-man
October 26, 2011, 11:32 PM
I'll vote for the "Legal Loophole" option. Get something in writing from your boss that says that as long as its NOT A WEAPON, you have it with you (I'd avoid words like "carry" as that might put up some red flags.)

As far as I understand it, the legal definition of a weapon is something that has been used, or threatened to be used, to harm another person. Therefore, a holstered GLOCK is not a weapon untill it leaves the holster.

I'm no lawyer, so please, don't just assume that I am claiming this as fact: its merely something I suspect is fact.

For what its worth, I work for the School District, so instead of justing fired, I could potentially go to jail if I carry at work. I feel your pain.


You may be better off with something that is obviously not a "weapon" such as an umbrella, maglight, or "that peice of pipe you use to adjust your chair." If you know how to use a kubotan, then a mini-maglight might work well.


Welcome to The High Road.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

orionengnr
October 26, 2011, 11:40 PM
Well, given that you do not post your locale, it is difficult to help.

If you are in OK or TX, laws have already been passed to provide protection for employees.

If you are somewhere else, research these laws and get started in your state to get a similar law enacted.

wep45
October 26, 2011, 11:50 PM
1. get a whole bunch of cash.:what:

2. buy the company.:cool:

3. change the policy.:evil:

Bobson
October 27, 2011, 12:05 AM
I've never done this, so I guess take the idea at face value, but why not try writing corporate HR a business letter outlining your thoughts behind it? Similar to how people write their congressmen when trying to get them to support a new law, or a change to one.

From what I understand, most companies with a policy like the one OP explained take that stance to prevent lawsuits against the company after an employee's act of self-defense, even if it was justified.

The worst they can do is say no, though, right? I don't think it would make them think of you as a potential future liability. Then again, if the job is really important to you, it may not be worth the risk (if there is any - someone with senior-management experience can probably chime in on this).

For me, I can't afford to lose my job for any reason, because my wife and I have a 9-month-old daughter, and my wife stays home with her. So our income is my responsibility alone. That being said, I personally wouldn't try to change any policy. I'm a security guard on a college campus, and if an active shooter ever came on the campus, it's probable that we security guards would be primary targets, but we aren't allowed to have any weapons whatsoever. But like I said.. until something better comes along, I'm just glad to have a good-paying job in this economy.

Good luck to you. Apologies for the long post.

RatDrall
October 27, 2011, 01:01 PM
Quit and find a job working for people who care about you. Unarmed security is not the place for anyone who doesn't want to be shot first because they are wearing a uniform.

Stuff like this makes me glad that I work with family and can carry whatever I want...

Madcap_Magician
October 27, 2011, 01:08 PM
I live in an at-will employment state and I value my job.

So I won't be writing any letters to my employers any time soon...

BBQLS1
October 27, 2011, 01:24 PM
What state do you live in.


Many states have laws on the books preventing employers from firing employees over such policies.

oneounceload
October 27, 2011, 01:37 PM
The worst they can do is say no, though, right?

They can, and will, find an excuse to let you go

hso
October 27, 2011, 02:24 PM
You need to provide a lot more info.

What type of business?

What restricts public access to the parking lot and building?

What state?

Large corporation or smaller owner/operated?

Employee owned?

asia331
October 27, 2011, 03:40 PM
Possible Courses of Action

1. Concealed is concealed
2. Work hard; gain company influence and position, change policy
3. Non aggressive use of cognitive dissonance conversation whenever subject brought up
4. Request company policy position on compensation should one find themselves a disarmed victim of grave harm on company property.

Notbeinfringed
October 27, 2011, 05:51 PM
You need to provide a lot more info.

What type of business?

What restricts public access to the parking lot and building?

What state?

Large corporation or smaller owner/operated?

Employee owned?

Large corporation, not employee owned

Nothing really restricts access. There is a (mostly decorative) fence, but the gates are open with an unmanned guard shack on weekdays, even at night. Weekends, the gate is down with a single (unarmed) guard.

State is Michigan. Wish we would join OK and TX in having a parking lot law. They have been introduced, but not gotten out of committee to my knowledge.

I appreciate the comments about buying the company or becoming the boss, but both are highly remote possibilities. A letter from my boss, or even my bosses boss wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on if anyone in HR wanted me gone for having a gun in the parking lot. Oh, and the policy specifically says "firearms, weapons or dangerous devices"... They even sent out a nice little email recently reminding everyone of this policy because hunting season is approaching.

hso
October 27, 2011, 06:58 PM
Your best bet is to work hard towards getting a parking lot law in place and then approaching your employer after the force of law is behind you.

Alternately, you need to assemble a body of data that shows that states with laws that forbid employers from allowing carry permit holders from having their firearms in their vehicles have no lower rate of firearms violence than those that permit it. Also, you need to then show the same for employers that permit employees to carry. Next you need to find like minded employees who will support your effort. A lone voice has no influence.

Mike1234567
October 27, 2011, 07:00 PM
Start your own business.

Byrd666
October 27, 2011, 07:40 PM
If you work in Texas, you are allowed to lock your firearm in your vehicle on company property. If not, like another or two said, either become THE boss or start your own company.

OH_Spartan
October 28, 2011, 07:33 AM
This is a common policy, especially in publicly traded companies. If a person is injured (or God forbid worse) when attacked on company property, I think worker saftey regulations and worker's compensation laws cover the injury/death. I do not believe there is a distinction for malintent.

What if the person is disarmed by company policy and attacked on the way to or from work? Does the company have any liability in that scenario?

I am not a lawyer, and I do not play one on TV. I also hope this question doesn't take us too far from intent of OP.

Birch Knoll
October 28, 2011, 03:27 PM
What if the person is disarmed by company policy and attacked on the way to or from work? Does the company have any liability in that scenario?

IANAL, but it would seem that you consented to being disarmed by your company's policy by choosing to continue to work there.

chrisb507
October 28, 2011, 06:35 PM
I would suggest that going directly to your employer is not the best option; at most companies, most policies are not up for debate/discussion with the general working population. If you choose to work there, you agree to accept the requirements of the job.

An anonymous approach--or going very informally to someone you know/trust in either the HR or management chain--might generate some traction. But I wouldn't bet on the policy being changed for liability/we're-scared-of-armed-people reasons.

Skyshot
October 28, 2011, 06:50 PM
Unless you have numbers (other employees) on you side who aren't afraid of management. I would say, keep your mouth shut and fly under the radar.

oneounceload
October 28, 2011, 10:43 PM
Their house, their rules

Don't like them?

Become your own boss and set your own rules

All of these people who advocate breaking a company's policy while on their property are advocating activities that border on being illegal in some locales. Their misguided justifications to suit their own ends is amazingly hypocritical to what they expect from others

Do what you want, realizing the consequences of your actions

Dan Forrester
December 9, 2011, 01:50 AM
Pass a federal law requiring corporations to honor their employees constitutional rights as a prerequisite for participating in any government program, receiving funding, loans or bailout money.

For example: Where I work we bill Medicare and Medicaid. My employer must honor all my constructional rights at the workplace before they are allowed to bill the federal government.

Another example: My father builds helicopters. In order for his company to be eligible for a contract with the military they must first be honoring their employees constitutional rights.

Honestly what major corporation these days is not in bed with the federal government. Benito Mussolini would be proud to see his ideas implemented on such a large scale by democrats and republicans alike.

I really think by tackling the problem like this you could promote it as a liberal, progressive measure (which it is) and get not only the NRA people like me behind it but also the ACLU, possibly the unions and even the “occupy wall street” types on board.

Just some crazy thought I had one night.

What do you guys think?

Dan

northark147
December 9, 2011, 04:29 AM
The only way I can think of is to change companies. That and concealed is concealed, I'd rather be judged by 12, and you better have a real darn good reason to strip search me...

Sport45
December 9, 2011, 05:21 AM
Can you park somewhere else?

jsimmons
December 11, 2011, 09:04 AM
If the parking lot does not have controlled access (by "controlled", I mean a guard at the entrance/exit), and if you're not subject to a "random search" when you enter the parking lot, why should it bother you what corporate policy is? As long as you don't unconceal it, who's gonna know?

I work on a military base in Texas, and cannot risk it due to the possibility of a random search. If it weren't for the random search thing, I'd sure as hell carry onto the base.

BTW, they can't have you arrested for breaking company policy (unless the activity in question is a violation of civil law) , but they can terminate your employment. That's the worse they can do.

Alternatively, if you don't want to violate company policy, don't park in the company lot.

jsimmons
December 11, 2011, 09:06 AM
All of these people who advocate breaking a company's policy while on their property are advocating activities that border on being illegal in some locales. Their misguided justifications to suit their own ends is amazingly hypocritical to what they expect from others.

As long as he's not breaking an actual law (legally allowed to have a gun, and legally allowed to have it in his car), his only risk is having his employment terminated IF corporate finds out.

I worked for a company that shared a parking lot with other retail businesses. After I was hired, they published an "employee handbook" that prohibited firearms in cars because the parking lot was part of their "premises", and that they claimed to have the right to randomly search my car. I challenged on the grounds that a) the definition of "premises in Texas" specifically excludes parking lots, and b) the parking lot was shared and had no controlled access, much less any kind of roving patrol, so anybody could conceivably come along and put something in it. I also stated that as long as my car had the windows rolled up and was locked, I had a reasonable expectation of privacy, and the only way they would gain access to it was via a search warrant served by an officer of the court. I also stated that the parking lot clause was absolutely pointless because we could park just one spot further away and be in front of the business next-door. They struck the clauses. I did this even though at the time my workday was spent on a military base and I couldn't car-carry anyway.

The manual also stated that we couldn't have guns while working for the company (in the location in which we were working), and I challenged that as well based on the fact that I often worked *for the company* from home, and they could not infringe on my 2nd amendment rights to keep arms at home. They eventually changed this clause to say "pursuant to the controlling entity and/or owner of the work location".

Russell76
July 19, 2012, 04:18 PM
I am looking for help on creating an exemption to my employer's weapons policy. I have discussed this with the president and he is willing to grant an exemtion but I have to present him with a suggested "exemption letter".

I'm not neccessarily interested in carrying concealed on my person. But I would like to avoid ruling it out.

My primary intent is to carry my hunting rifle in a company vehicle. I am in sales and drive a company vehicle everyday of the week and after normal work hours. I am willing to keep the rifle storaged in a case, even locked if needed. But I hope to create an "exemption letter" that does not restrict me any more than absolutely neccessary.

If you are willing to help me word such a letter PM me. Thanks!

B1gGr33n
July 19, 2012, 06:01 PM
I'm in the "concealed is concealed" and "keep your trap shut!" club. My current employer has no mention of such things being banned, so I'm comfortable discussing that I own guns with my coworkers because they do as well, but to the best of my knowledge I'm the only PTC. My previous employer had very similar policy to the OP, which I basically ignored while I was there since MN has laws allowing you to keep a firearm in your car, so if they wanna fire me for having one, it might as well be on me. Worst case, I get fined $25 for trespassing if I take too long to pack. I did manage to run into a few coworkers from the former job at the gun range about a month before I left, and was pleasantly surprised to learn I wasn't the only one in the aforementioned clubs, so keep your eyes open next time you go out shooting or to the LGS.

halogrinder
July 19, 2012, 06:31 PM
i was terminated from my last employment due to a punk who didn't like me and knew i carried.


funny thing, was the fixed operations manager, and 2-3 other people carried daily as well.

meh. I'm responsible, and had it secured. its not like i was walking around like Yosemite sam for god's sake!

stupid politics. i knew i was breaking the company policy. i felt that me being terminated was better than not being able to protect myself in a VERY high crime are in a major metropolitan downtown. we have had to chase out bums with pry bars, threaten them to leave, seen cops run right through the middle of the property chasing people.


the funny thing, is i can probably say that i have run into WELL OVER 200 hand guns and weapons in a 10 year period without even thinking about it.

pull car in, need to work on center console, find a gun, throw it on the floor, fix the problem, put it all back. it was a weekly thing.

pull a car in, find the seat isnt working right, find a handgun jammed up in the seat tracks, yank it out and throw it in the center console/trunk/glove box.


hell i tackled a guy who was running from the cops, just because he literally was running right at me.... i really had no choice due to the location i was in.


i had my big boy pants on, and left a job i had for 10 years within an hour. they highest paid tech, highest efficiency, and lead tech of a shop of 30........ i had my toolbox and all my stuff gone, thew my deuces up and got my handgun back from the cops they called (which i told them they had no right to confiscate my handgun, because i wasn't breaking any laws, but surrendered it until i got off the property)


people who do dumb stuff like that (he is such a hypocrite, we built AK47's there, and other gun related stuff, and it had been like that for years) have a special place in hell on the KARMA bus.

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