Mounting a MG on an airplane


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NoAlibi
October 27, 2011, 04:50 PM
I'm retired and maybe I have too much time on my hands but...

I love machine guns and airplanes and I thought I might combine the two.

I build experimental aircraft and I have this Cassutt Racer. I didn't build this particular airplane, but FAA regulations allow me to modify it.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151611&stc=1&d=1319744897

I have a Ruger AC-556 that is very compact and it would be perfect to put into a streamlined pod and attach it to a wing using a pylon - much the same as rockets are attached to fighter aircraft.

Our shooting club has a 40+ acre range in a sparsely populated area that is usually deserted and I'm sure that since machine guns are shot there no one outside of the range would be concerned.

Would I be violating any BATFE rules? Thanks.....Doc

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kimbershot
October 27, 2011, 04:59 PM
there are old pilots and bold pilots--you know the rest. :evil:

TexasRifleman
October 27, 2011, 05:00 PM
I know a warbird collector who wanted his F4F Wildcat to be as authentic as possible so he looked into putting real guns back in the thing.

Several problems cropped up.

1) Crossing state lines is pretty difficult because you have to get approval from ATF every time. A pod would probably be easily removed so that would be easier.

2) How would you secure the gun at the destination? You can't walk away from the airplane really. Pod helps that I guess, if it comes off quick.

3) It may not be legal to actually fire it from the air. Many states regulate than in their hunting laws. Also, depending on where you fired the guns, you might have to catch the brass which might be difficult.

He abandoned the plan but I don't believe he ever found anything in gun laws or FAA regulations that would have actually prevented it. I wouldn't want to be your liability insurance carrier....

That was all pre 9/11 too. I cannot imagine the attention you would get doing it today :)

Seems like Mike Dillon has something mounted on his UH-1 if I remember.

Al Thompson
October 27, 2011, 05:37 PM
Read an article years ago of a guy in South Africa who mounted a pair of Browning A-5s on his ultra light. Seems that some sort of goose was a pest species.

He wanted to have aerial goose engagements. :cool:

:D

rcmodel
October 27, 2011, 05:47 PM
This sounds like a real bad idea!

A 40+ acre range is awful dang small when your gun platform is whizzing by at 248 MPH!!

Besides that, how do you know with absolute certainty the range is totally deserted?

Some dude in cammo clothes might be hiding behind a tree taking a whiz when you get there.

rc

TexasRifleman
October 27, 2011, 05:49 PM
This sounds like a real bad idea!

Oh yeah, it's a really bad idea, he just asked if it was Legal :) I mean, it could be done safely I suppose but the risks are pretty high it seems.

DWFan
October 27, 2011, 06:16 PM
I don't see much difference in what he wants to do and sending up a helicopter loaded with a group of individuals armed with semi-auto rifles.
IMO neither is a good idea, but that's just me. Legal? No idea, but I'd expect the ATF and DHS to hassle you constantly. Neat looking plane though.

NoAlibi
October 27, 2011, 06:56 PM
kimbershot: "there are old pilots and bold pilots--you know the rest"

I did the "bold" part as a Marine Corps pilot in Southeast Asia (mostly Cambodia and Laos) after mustering out of the Corps I had to turn my attention away from flying to more mundane things like completing school and making a career. Five years ago I rekindled the love of flying after a 35 year hiatus, so that's how I got the "old" part. Now it seems I'm hell bent on making that adage a myth for me! :D

rcmodel: "A 40+ acre range is awful dang small when your gun platform is whizzing by at 248 MPH!!"

I modified my Cassutt for aerobatics by raising the the vertical stabilizer and rudder and bracing the horizontal stabilizer so it won't make the speeds of the Reno racers do in my class. Mine will do about 225 mph. I thought I'd keep the speed down around 150 mph and be descending steeply to avoid ricochets. My question to you is how did you know the speed specs on the Cassutt?

[QUOTE]rcmodel: "Besides that, how do you know with absolute certainty the range is totally deserted?"

I already thought about that. I planned to have one of my shooting buddies at the range and give him my hand held aviation transceiver and communicate on a plane-to-plane frequency so we can keep each other apprised of the conditions.

TexasRifleman - I wouldn't be crossing state lines so getting permission is not a concern in this case, but would be if I went to another range I belong to in another state. I know that the gun must be in my possession or securely locked up if I part company with it and I would comply with that. As for post 9-11 and the DHS you've got me there. To tell the truth, given the current rulings by the BATFE and DHS, I'd be afraid to pass gas while wearing thermal underwear for fear of being accused of using an unregistered silencer!

This would not be a regular thing, but just something to have fun with a time or two - nothing more (sorry about that for the EOTWAWKI guys).

Mike1234567
October 27, 2011, 07:12 PM
Sorry but that image looks like a model. :)

NoAlibi
October 27, 2011, 07:35 PM
Mike1234567: "Sorry but that image looks like a model."

Not sorry, but you are totally wrong. I take offense to your statement without offering any proof other than giving your uninformed opinion.

This is my airplane and if you look closely at the picture you should have noticed, since you are so knowledgable, that the vertical stabilizer and rudder are in fact higher than any model I know of and you should have noticed that the horizontal stabilizer has been braced with struts, again, unlike any model or other Cassutt Racer that I know of.

Perhaps you can share your erudite opinion with some verifiable facts. Lacking that you should keep your rude opinions to yourself.....Doc

Mike1234567
October 27, 2011, 07:41 PM
I didn't intend to offend but it still looks like a model given the angle at which the photo was taken. Please forgive my unedumacated ignerntz. :)

ETA: It's a darned pretty plane either way.

Justin
October 27, 2011, 07:56 PM
I believe that Mike Dillon of Dillon reloading press fame has some aircraft with mounted machineguns on them.

I don't know the legalities under which those aircraft are allowed to exist, however.


For what it's worth, this is officially the most interesting thing that's been posted on THR.

Mot45acp
October 27, 2011, 08:05 PM
Doesn't Ronnie Barrett have a plane with some Ma Duces bounted to it? Maybe get in touch with him and ask about it.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 27, 2011, 08:09 PM
Are there any FAA Laws besides any ATF Laws that may be in place against this kind of thing?

Sky
October 27, 2011, 08:14 PM
I did the "bold" part as a Marine Corps pilot in Southeast Asia (mostly Cambodia and Laos) after mustering out of the Corps

OV-10s or A1s?

Mike 1234567 don't feel bad a Cassutt Racer looks like a model when standing next to one. Neat fast fun airplane.

Mike1234567
October 27, 2011, 08:22 PM
Sky... are these really that small/short???

armoredman
October 27, 2011, 08:29 PM
Might need a beta mag for that AC-556, a 30 round mag will go FAST, with no way to reload without landing.
I heard the same thing, that Mike Dillon has mounted aircraft NFA firearm, but lacking the funds to be allowed to merely LOOK at either aircraft or NFA, I haven't the foggiest clue how to do it. I would be interested to know how it might be done, if anyone has the answer?

Sky
October 27, 2011, 08:32 PM
For my 6'2" frame it was more snug than a June bug in a thimble but they are experimental and can be made to their owners specifications and size. The one I was familiar with was not made for me.

Mike1234567
October 27, 2011, 08:36 PM
So these are about 3-4 feet tall at the top of the canopy?

Cosmoline
October 27, 2011, 08:39 PM
I second the idea of asking those who may have done it. Also you will need to consult a lawyer with knowledge of both the FAR's and NFA who can clear the way. This is not something to do because nobody on THR can find a specific rule saying you can't do it. Security Aviation up here got busted big time for even leaving the mounts for rocket launchers on jets. I realize you are NFA OK right now, but the case does highlight the "ton of bricks" approach taken by the feds when firearms and aircraft come together.

Insurance is another consideration.

Aside from all these considerations, is it even possible to follow the four rules in an aircraft with a simple gun mount and trigger switch? It seems like there would need to be an additional safety feature to go hot before pushing the button fired the thing. Or are you literally reaching out the window to shoot it?

Assuming this plan can be legally implemented, what about using the ocean as the range? It's less likely to upset nearby subdivisions ;-)

Jim K
October 27, 2011, 08:55 PM
The idea would seem to involve so many areas that you might never be able to get a real answer, but it would not be just the NFA.

As some folks mentioned, the FAA could get involved, also local hunting and shooting laws (like siting of a range and backstop requirements), etc. If there is not an existing law, I bet the county board would pass one ten microseconds after the first firing pass.

Jim

taliv
October 27, 2011, 09:44 PM
sounds like a lot of fun! but 40 ac is waaaaay too small to do this on. i'm thinking more like 4000 ac


you know, mounting a 22lr on a model helo is more my budget, and something i've always wanted to do

Trebor
October 27, 2011, 10:21 PM
Mike1234567: "Sorry but that image looks like a model."

Not sorry, but you are totally wrong. I take offense to your statement without offering any proof other than giving your uninformed opinion.

This is my airplane and if you look closely at the picture you should have noticed, since you are so knowledgable, that the vertical stabilizer and rudder are in fact higher than any model I know of and you should have noticed that the horizontal stabilizer has been braced with struts, again, unlike any model or other Cassutt Racer that I know of.

Perhaps you can share your erudite opinion with some verifiable facts. Lacking that you should keep your rude opinions to yourself.....Doc

No need to jump all over Mike. I was thinking the same thing myself.

It's just that from the angle the photo was taken, and the lack of anything to give a scale reference (like a person), it does look a lot like those shots model makers take to make models look more "real."

No one is saying that it is *is* a model, just that the shot makes it "look" like a model. It's just a an artifact of the angle, composition, lack of object to add scale, etc.

We aren't questioning your honesty, just making an observation on the photograph.

Devonai
October 27, 2011, 10:41 PM
Legal or not, you'll never hit anything unless you either mount two weapons and set the convergence to a known distance, or mount one weapon as close to the centerline as possible - ideally through the propeller hub.

Chindo18Z
October 27, 2011, 10:46 PM
Perhaps the State and/or Federal regulations governing hunting from helicopters apply here...

I know that's legally done in some locales.

Maybe you just need a varmint permit! :)

towboat_er
October 27, 2011, 10:50 PM
Recon those are pretty small airplanes.

http://home.comcast.net/~jwmills60/site/?/page/CRAP/&PHPSESSID=1f8f9a6ab97599ad5f961c7b3046207c

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 02:07 AM
Mike1234567: "I didn't intend to offend but it still looks like a model given the angle at which the photo was taken. Please forgive my unedumacated ignerntz."

Your “unedumacated ignerntz” is forgiven. If you had a question about my plane all you had to do was ask and I would have been glad to answer it. The Cassutt IIIM, my particular version, is 15’ long with a 17’ wingspan. So, yes it is small and without a visual reference (person, car, etc.) near it, it could be mistaken for a model.

Trebor: "No need to jump all over Mike. I was thinking the same thing myself"

If you lie, then you should be called on it. Mike’s statement was a statement not a question. He doesn’t know me to be a liar, or honest for that matter, and he should have raised his doubt in a question i.e.,, “That airplane looks too small to be a real one. Can you tell me more about it?” And I would have tried to satisfy his doubt.

Mike apologized saying that he did not intend to offend and I believe him. Apology accepted; situation resolved, like it never happened.

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 02:17 AM
Sky: "OV-10s or A1s?"

Actually a U-10A (Civilian counterpart = Helio Courier) for the interdiction missions we were flying. Otherwise C-130s on supply runs. Our interdiction unit was disbanded in December 1971 after our intel dried up.

Sky: "For my 6'2" frame it was more snug than a June bug in a thimble but they are experimental and can be made to their owners specifications and size. The one I was familiar with was not made for me.

My Cassutt has the tall pilot mods. I have to use a cushion to be able to get my head high enough over the panel to be safer. I said safer rather than safe because the nickname for the bird is “The Casket Racer”. The five-time national Reno champ was killed in it a few years back. It’s a handful - 120 on final, 100 over the fence and it quits flying at 75. Becaause of the high angle of attack at these speeds, if you’re not in a forward slip you’ll never see the runway while on final. After that there is only looking out the sides of the canopy or the right and left fuselage mounted lexan panels..

rondog
October 28, 2011, 02:22 AM
Oh, a fully equipped and combat-ready P-51 Mustang....the ultimate pipe dream! I can't even imagine the costs and legal hurdles though.

And anybody ever wonder about how many deaths/injuries may have been caused in WWII by falling .50 cal bullets and brass? Millions of 'em fired up there, they all had to land somewhere.....

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 02:36 AM
armoredman: "Might need a beta mag for that AC-556, a 30 round mag will go FAST, with no way to reload without landing."

I was only planning on a max of 30 rounds - just for grins. However, if my neighbor doesn't stop his dog's incessant yapping I might go for a drum! ;)

Devonai: "Legal or not, you'll never hit anything unless you either mount two weapons and set the convergence to a known distance, or mount one weapon as close to the centerline as possible - ideally through the propeller hub."

I just want to put the rounds anywhere in the berm - a second gun and convergence is more than I wanted to get involved with - this is just supposed to be for fun! Rigging an interrupter so I can shoot through the propeller arc is waaay beyond my ability.

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 02:43 AM
Cosmoline: "Aside from all these considerations, is it even possible to follow the four rules in an aircraft with a simple gun mount and trigger switch? It seems like there would need to be an additional safety feature to go hot before pushing the button fired the thing. Or are you literally reaching out the window to shoot it?"

I would use 2 cable units, much like a lawn mower's throttle cable; one to actuate the safety and the other for the trigger. KISS works for me.

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 02:50 AM
Chindo18Z: "Perhaps the State and/or Federal regulations governing hunting from helicopters apply here..."

Definitely a possibility if there are any game animals in the vicinity of the "strafe".

I used to hunt the Loop Road unit in the Big Cypress National Park. The rules specifically stated that it was illegal to shoot at animals from a moving vehicle. Their rules defined a vehicle as an automobile, truck (including tracks), boat (including airboats), horse and/or airplane.

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 03:00 AM
Jim K: "The idea would seem to involve so many areas that you might never be able to get a real answer, but it would not be just the NFA."

Right. The NFA is just my first stop. Contemplating all the hurdles, this task is taking on monumental proportions. If the regulatory folks had a sense of humor I would ask for forgivness rather than permission! :rolleyes:

CFletch08
October 28, 2011, 06:17 AM
That would be the coolest nfa ever, although it may not be terribly useful for t
he time/money involved. On the other hand, how many people can say they have one?

Serious bragging rights
Guy 1: "Hay look at my tricked out AR. I put over $3000 into it!"
You: "Wow that's really something. Take a look at what I brought today..."
Guy 1: 0.0

I bet the local gun nuts would love you. The local liberals? Not so much. All the more reason to do it...

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 28, 2011, 06:29 AM
Your “unedumacated ignerntz” is forgiven. If you had a question about my plane all you had to do was ask and I would have been glad to answer it. The Cassutt IIIM, my particular version, is 15’ long with a 17’ wingspan. So, yes it is small and without a visual reference (person, car, etc.) near it, it could be mistaken for a model.



If you lie, then you should be called on it. Mike’s statement was a statement not a question. He doesn’t know me to be a liar, or honest for that matter, and he should have raised his doubt in a question i.e.,, “That airplane looks too small to be a real one. Can you tell me more about it?” And I would have tried to satisfy his doubt.

Mike apologized saying that he did not intend to offend and I believe him. Apology accepted; situation resolved, like it never happened.
Well, now that it has been brought up, I also thought that was an RC model airplane.

Sav .250
October 28, 2011, 08:05 AM
If you end up doing that, I`m sure I`ll be reading about you in the paper!

axxxel
October 28, 2011, 08:40 AM
You could mount a red dot on the rifle and a video camera directly behind it. I'm pretty sure it's not too hard too connect the camera to a small screen in the cockpit. You could even install remote controls to use the camera zoom...

Ex-MA Hole
October 28, 2011, 09:06 AM
I thought it was an RC model, too!!!

Glad I wasn't the one to invoke the wrath for making a statement!

Wow....off to find more prune juice....

barnetmill
October 28, 2011, 09:09 AM
I wonder if the ATF might consider a plane plus machine gun to be a destructive device. But then I think you can still do the correct paper work. If you have a lot of money and time perhaps you could find a .22 rim fire gatling gun that you could actuate with a foot pedal like the old sewing machines.

Gaiudo
October 28, 2011, 09:27 AM
If you lie, then you should be called on it. Mike’s statement was a statement not a question.

It looked like a model to me too. Does that make me a liar?

Silly way of going about things.

Sky
October 28, 2011, 09:42 AM
Actually a U-10A (Civilian counterpart = Helio Courier)

Laos There was one down in a valley that looked like it might have had an engine failure (?) and landed in perfect condition. Always thought about trying to sneak in with a UH-1 and sling it out....UH-1 Not that sneaky and after the Chinese built the highway down through Laos ( 2 AAA battalions) I decided it was a bad idea for me; Uncle Sugar would have taken it from me anyway, but man I thought about it..Another great airplane for in and out low and slow. Some of the Pilatus Porters had the mini gun in the cargo hold....

http://www.google.com/search?q=pilatus+porter&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS351US352&biw=1280&bih=686&site=webhp&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=C66qTonSI4f50gGGiPSQDw&sqi=2&ved=0CD8QsAQ

Would have been rather difficult in the Courrier I would emagine but being a Marine nothing would surprise me with arms for your type of mission?

Pics of the Currier for those who do not know what one looks like: http://www.google.com/search?q=helio+courier&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS351US352&biw=1280&bih=686&site=webhp&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=UK6qTqiSKufY0QHXhMyMDw&sqi=2&ved=0CEoQsAQ

P.S. Glad we saw what we did and made it back mostly intact. Salute

Mike1234567
October 28, 2011, 09:50 AM
NoAlibi... You're absolutely correct that I worded my post very poorly and I understand how you thought it was accusatory. I'm sorry for that.

. . . If you follow through with this project I'll be watching with great interest... and jealousy. :)

towboat_er... That's a fascinating web link. Those planes are definitely tiny... and VERY cool!!

ETA: This airplane's diminutive stance is precisely why it looked like a model in the photo... we assume an average-sized aircraft photographed at ground level. The small size combined with moderate height enhancement of photographer (perhaps standing in the bed of a pickup truck?) gives the image an uncommon perspective. At any rate that's what assuming does to our "viewpoint" and "perspective".

If I hear a midget aircraft approaching followed by distinctive "rat-a-tat, rat-a-tat" sounds... I'll know to duck and cover. :)

taliv
October 28, 2011, 10:58 AM
alright guys, stop the model conversation... don't want to lock an otherwise interesting thread

husker
October 28, 2011, 12:15 PM
What about bird bombs or a smoke grenades?
Smoke rockets, do they make such a thing? Shooting some kind of rocket from your plain while in a steep dive,that would smoke once it hit the ground or target. Man that would be fun & to cool.
Awesome machine you have there NoAlibi. I would luv to see pics of some you built.
Ive seen pics of RC-models plains. He does real nice work to.

Acera
October 28, 2011, 12:17 PM
If I remember correctly, on Dillon's aircraft they take the weapon off their mount and store them when flying to their range area. Once there, they remount them and do what they want to. (That does not make sexy TV, so it's not shown)

I would worry less about the BATF and more about the FAA and Homeland Security. Possibly flying an armed plane over populated areas might draw a little concern, even if those populated areas are scattered farms.

A buddy went on a helicopter hog hunt, and said they were stupid safety conscience with the rifles. Feared that a "brandishing" charge might be filed by someone outside the hunting area looking up and seeing a guy hanging out the door with a rifle. Everything was secured inside the helicopter until they got to the fields, then re-stowed on the flight back.

This does not even begin to talk about your breaking a number of the 4 safety rules. Since the weapon will probably be loaded with a round in battery when you take off, think about all the muzzle sweeps you will be doing. The 5.56 round is nothing to be trifled with, a simple malfunction could send rounds where you don't want them and cause some serious damage.

Same goes for the model airplane thing. Think what a field day the medial would have, and how the members here would react to a story of someone doing that and having an accident.

Hacker15E
October 28, 2011, 12:31 PM
To the OP: Have you ever done air-to-ground gunnery/strafe with fixed, forward-firing ordnance before?

You say that you flew Helios and Herks in the USMC, but unless you were FACing in the Helio, I'm not sure if you would have actually shot anything forward off that or not.

Strafe is actually a complicated maneuver which requires a good amount of prior planning (altitudes, dive angles, slant ranges to the target, fire range/altitude, cease fire range/altitude, dive recovery computation, "safe escape maneuvers" which ensure that you don't get hit by your own ricochets, etc).

It's not something to be done just for kicks, unless you particularly want to plant yourself nose-down into the dirt, over-G your airplane, or get fragged by your own bullets or stuff they kick up into the air (all possible outcomes of improperly planned or executed strafes).

Also, you have to make sure the area you're shooting on has plenty of area in case you have an off-range inadvertent or unintentional shot(s), or something happens during your strafe pass, like a "hung gun" (ergo, it continues to shoot after you come off the trigger, and keeps shooting as you recover from the dive, spraying bullets all over your forward flight path).

Strafe is serious business that, in the military tactical flying world, takes lots of planning and is introduced/trained to in very controlled situations at very controlled locations.

If you know when you're doing, then more power to you. If not, then IMHO it's one of those things that is best left to the realm of "what if" daydreaming because the possible unsuccessful outcomes are pretty bad.

northark147
October 28, 2011, 12:43 PM
My question to you is how did you know the speed specs on the Cassutt?

RC knows EVERYTHING. Which is no fair, noone should be allowed to have that much knowledge.. lol

Prince Yamato
October 28, 2011, 12:47 PM
This involves 3 laws:

1) NFA laws - you're good to shoot your gun so that's settled.

2) local laws concerning shooting from a moving vehicle.

3) FAA laws.

What you want to do is out there idea-wise, but probably totally legal. You may need to clear it with local pd too. If people can own operational tanks, I don't see this as impossible. Also, 40 acres is way too small. You need like 4000+ acres.

MrWesson
October 28, 2011, 01:14 PM
Not sorry, but you are totally wrong. I take offense to your statement without offering any proof other than giving your uninformed opinion.

This is my airplane and if you look closely at the picture you should have noticed, since you are so knowledgable, that the vertical stabilizer and rudder are in fact higher than any model I know of and you should have noticed that the horizontal stabilizer has been braced with struts, again, unlike any model or other Cassutt Racer that I know of.

Perhaps you can share your erudite opinion with some verifiable facts. Lacking that you should keep your rude opinions to yourself.....Doc

I had to take a hard look at it as well I think its the camera angle that makes it look smaller.

22lr
October 28, 2011, 01:21 PM
I want to see this happen. Couldn't you use those glaser safety rounds to eliminate the ricochet risk? It would be a lot more expensive, but id think it would be a lot safer.

backbencher
October 28, 2011, 03:49 PM
Very very entertaining. For safety's sake, I would think you would want a remote charging handle in your pod, so you can take off w/out the action closed on a live round. That will also allow you to clear the gun should you have ammo left after the 1st pass, & you discover you need to return w/out emptying your mag. If possible, you also would want to remove your feed device from the weapon before retracting the bolt, preventing a live round from chambering should there be excess G's on the aircraft.

I don't know if the cyclic rate will permit a straight gravity feed from a hopper, nor do I know your G situation @ the moment of firing. One trick not even P-51 pilots had, though - green lasers.

Have fun explaining this to the FAA.

Farmers Fight!

backbencher

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 07:27 PM
Mike1234567: "NoAlibi... You're absolutely correct that I worded my post very poorly and I understand how you thought it was accusatory. I'm sorry for that."

Mike,

I’ve read a number of your posts and you seem to be a pretty good guy and I’m sorry that we got off on the wrong foot. I’ll admit that I got a little more testy than I should have and that my wording was on the verge of being inflammatory. That was more the fault of my experience with the trolls that lurk on these boards than you. I’m sorry that I didn’t take a more civil approach to our discord…..Doc

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 07:31 PM
22lr: "I want to see this happen. Couldn't you use those glaser safety rounds to eliminate the ricochet risk? It would be a lot more expensive, but id think it would be a lot safer."

Good idea. I reload 5.56 extensively and I could easily download the velocity and use frangible bullets to reduce the risk of ricochets. Overall the cost would be negligible because I would only need about 60-70 rounds. Thanks.

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 07:36 PM
axxxel: "You could mount a red dot on the rifle and a video camera directly behind it. I'm pretty sure it's not too hard too connect the camera to a small screen in the cockpit. You could even install remote controls to use the camera zoom..."

husker: "What about bird bombs or a smoke grenades?
Smoke rockets, do they make such a thing? Shooting some kind of rocket from your plain while in a steep dive,that would smoke once it hit the ground or target. Man that would be fun & to cool."

Listen to yourselves! All I wanted was a couple of 30 round passes at the berm and you guys want me to start building an X-wing fighter or a Bow-Tie fighter! :D:D:D

VADER LIVES!!! Geez, you’re almost as bad as me…

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 07:44 PM
Acera: "This does not even begin to talk about your breaking a number of the 4 safety rules. Since the weapon will probably be loaded with a round in battery when you take off, think about all the muzzle sweeps you will be doing. The 5.56 round is nothing to be trifled with, a simple malfunction could send rounds where you don't want them and cause some serious damage."

The purpose of putting this idea out for scrutiny was to solicit this kind of feedback. You make a valid point and I have a plan to contain a malfunction, but it is untested. Got any ideas?

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 07:50 PM
CFletch08: "That would be the coolest nfa ever, although it may not be terribly useful for the time/money involved. On the other hand, how many people can say they have one? I bet the local gun nuts would love you. The local liberals? Not so much. All the more reason to do it..."

I have enough strife on my plate right now, so I don’t want to intimidate the liberals, but as you pointed out it is to have fun with it and to do something memorable. Yeah, bragging rights for sure in our own community and NOT to make the papers as Sav .250 mentioned! :eek:

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 07:53 PM
barnetmill: "I wonder if the ATF might consider a plane plus machine gun to be a destructive device. But then I think you can still do the correct paper work."

That was in the back of my mine from the beginning and it was the reason I posted in the first place. I was hoping that I would get some feed back in that regard.

NoAlibi
October 28, 2011, 08:09 PM
Hacker15E - To my knowledge the USMC mostly used the mix-masters for FAC. We used the U10As because of their STOL characteristics and other mission specific capabilities. Our squadron’s Helios had the doors removed, save one of them, and mine was fitted with 2 kennels for K9s that had seats on top of them for their handlers. The 4th crew member handled an RPK with 75 rd drums (the rest of the crew were issued AK-47s) mounted from a sling suspended from the top of the cabin in the aft deck. So my finger was never on the trigger until we landed and had to defend our planes while the K9s scouted the area for NVA (almost exclusively found in our situation) that we were assigned to.

My chapter of the Quiet Birdmen has a few pilots qualified in strafing that I’ve consulted with and with my acro skills I’m sure that I can handle this comparatively much simpler task. It’s 30 rounds, no return fire, no evasive maneuvering and unless some loon, other than myself, thinks that there is a jihad against his chicken coops this should be a cake walk. What I fear most are the legal ramifications and the subsequent Monday-Morning-Quarterbacking.

However, I always keep Murphy's Law in mind. Actually, I adhere to Doc's Law, "Murphy was an optimist!" :D

Mike1234567
October 28, 2011, 08:59 PM
We need more pics!! :)

NoAlibi
October 29, 2011, 12:04 AM
Sky: "Would have been rather difficult in the Courrier I would emagine but being a Marine nothing would surprise me with arms for your type of mission?"

Check my response to Hacker15E to get some idea of what we were doing. Since you were there, I’m sure that you know why we used Communist Block weapons in Cambodia and Laos in the late 60s
.

Sky: "P.S. Glad we saw what we did and made it back mostly intact. Salute"

Funny thing about coming back intact. I took some shrapnel on two occasions while in the Corps - just minor injuries. However, in my 12 years of service as a PO and homicide investigator I was injured 17 times in the line of duty - some were major; enough where they forced my retirement. Go figure!

Glad you made it home "mostly intact" too.....Doc

NoAlibi
October 29, 2011, 03:31 PM
To All:

The DHS-BATFE alphabet soup is hard to swallow regarding my project. However, I can see no prohibition anywhere about building an elaborate tripod platform for my AC-556 that looks like my Cassutt Racer.

It’s time for me to do a top overhaul on the engine, so I am going to take the jugs off the case making the airplane unable to fly and therefore making the combination similar to having an AR-15 fitted with a dummy grenade launcher. The gun is real in both cases and a dummy launcher or an airplane without an engine are both inert. I will check with the Feds to make sure my combo cannot be found in violation of some obscure regulation.

Since I needed the hangar space for my winter-spring project, this morning I removed the wings and loaded the Cassutt onto my trailer so I could bring it back to my carport until there is a spot in the shed for the overhaul and the machine gun project.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151709&stc=1&d=1319912969
(First trip to the carport last spring.)

This project will be on the back-burner until I complete my current experimental seaplane is done. Like it is often said, “90% done with 90% to go.” I’m trying to get the seaplane ready for the 2012 EAA Oshkosh AirVenture exposition. When I complete the Cassutt/MG project I’ll resurrect this thread and post the pictures and a youtube link…..Doc

JustinJ
October 29, 2011, 05:49 PM
Have you considered a large body of water with floating targets? The ocean being preferable. No ricochet concerns either.

NoAlibi
October 29, 2011, 07:12 PM
JustinJ:
"Have you considered a large body of water with floating targets? The ocean being preferable. No ricochet concerns either."

That was also suggested in another post. The ocean is easy enough to reach in South Florida, but it is heavily patrolled. Chances of raising some Federal and local law enforcement eyebrows is very high. In addition I would also have to find someone willing to be out in their boat videoing it to confirm the experiment for bragging rights! :D

Water, btw, will ricochet bullets as well.

Mike1234567
October 29, 2011, 08:37 PM
Mayday... mayday!!! Tiny plane with big guns shooting floating junk in open water. Mayday... mayday!!!

Zoogster
October 29, 2011, 09:05 PM
NoAlibi said: I reload 5.56 extensively and I could easily download the velocity

Might be pointless, keep in mind that the speed of the aircraft is added to the speed of the projectiles, on top of their existing speeds.
200 MPH for example adds almost another 300fps to the round.

In fact considering that the aircraft will always add velocity to the projectile, and your intended targets are stationary, heavier projectiles will always gain more energy from the aircraft's speed than lighter ones.
If you use light high velocity projectiles less energy is gained by the few hundred FPS, but if you use heavy rounds that few hundred FPS can add considerable punch.


So if you are doing 200 mph passes on the target you would already have to download the rounds by about 300FPS just to keep them normal power.


I think it could be entertaining, but it also would require a significant play area. Some of the open spaces out west might work but your typical gun range is not really suitable.
It also seems like a good way to reduce the number of firearms on the NFA registry. I can just see people trying to make their own armed P-51s, complete with authentic number of M2s (6) and crashing on occasion making high speed low passes engaging ground targets. Taking 6 M2s off the registry at a time.
The risk of crashing goes up significantly doing the type of maneuvers that are sure to be involved while engaging ground targets.
I am sure a number of people that could afford such a project will not use aircraft modified to be more capable of aerobatics and higher G maneuvers without damage to the frame. I can just see wings ripping off and tails breaking, rudders and ailerons giving out, and general accidents when the typical stock private aircraft cannot manage. Removing guns from the registry each time they do.

Ian
October 30, 2011, 10:42 AM
What you need to do is swap that Ruger for a genuine aircraft machine gun:


LMG 08/15 Aircraft Maxim video (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/maxim-lmg-0815-video)

:evil:

littlebluevette
October 30, 2011, 11:14 AM
I think you would be toast under FAR 91.13 and would end up on a terrorist watch list. I'd at least take a trip to FAA district office and run it past them first.

paintballdude902
October 30, 2011, 03:08 PM
I believe that Mike Dillon of Dillon reloading press fame has some aircraft with mounted machineguns on them.

I don't know the legalities under which those aircraft are allowed to exist, however.


i had an instructor during basic aerial gunner school that knows mike. they mount miniguns, m240s, and .50s on the uh-1 huey and go shooting. i want the guys job that does it too.

ive also heard that mikes daughter is hottttt

NoAlibi
October 30, 2011, 04:15 PM
littlebluevette: "
I think you would be toast under FAR 91.13 and would end up on a terrorist watch list. I'd at least take a trip to FAA district office and run it past them first.

I am very familiar with 91.15 because not only have I participated in bomb-dropping contests, but organized them as well.

The key phrase is: "However, this section does not prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or damage to persons or property."

Of course what I think is reasonable and what some bureaucrat thinks may not coincide. Much like the thread where a registered machine gun owner use a MG for SD. He was justified, but it took an arrest and a court case to prove.

I intend to be methodical to see that it doesn't happen to me.

NoAlibi
October 30, 2011, 04:30 PM
Ian: "What you need to do is swap that Ruger for a genuine aircraft machine gun:

LMG 08/15 Aircraft Maxim video

I guessing an 08/15 Maxim Aircraft MG would weigh considerably more than my Ruger AC-556.

My fiancee has figured out the way to my heart is through my stomach. As a consequence I am fast approaching the maximum gross weight limitation of my Cassutt with me in it. :( The heavier gun would also require a heavier and higher drag gun mount. Really, a MAC 9 would be a better choice in this case.

Hmmm... How much is a MAC-9 these days? :D

jaysouth
October 30, 2011, 07:35 PM
I know some folks that mounted an AA-12 fully auto shotgun on an RC helicopter.

When they demo'd it to the Columiban National Police at their site in Alabama, the local cops and BATFE were in attendance. However, after the demo, the gun had to be secured in premises under control of the AA-12 manufacturer, which meant it went back to TN to his facility to spend the night.

The helo manufacturer went bankrupt for other reasons and the experiment did not continue.

The-Reaver
October 30, 2011, 09:32 PM
Its an Awesome idea and a bad idea...

Reminds me of a buddy who wanted to put 4 mac 10's mounted upside down on a little wing section of a ultra light.

Hacker15E
October 31, 2011, 02:56 PM
with my acro skills I’m sure that I can handle this comparatively much simpler task

It has nothing to do with acro skills...it has everything to do with ensuring you've planned out all aspects of the strafe pass (airspeed, dive angle, fire range/altitude, cease fire range/altitude) which ensures three things:

1. Safe recovery from the dive
2. Safe separation from ricochets or any other debris kicked up in the target area
3. A slant range at both the open fire and cease fire ranges which ensures that the bullets will go where they're supposed to and do what they're supposed to when they get there.

I certainly wouldn't ever say that my skills as a fighter pilot qualify me to go out and fly in an IAC event without any additional academics, planning, or practice. It's just as much of a stretch to think that "acro skills" are enough to pull something like this out of your rectum aithout significant additional planning and training from people who know the factors involved.

This is ABSOLUTELY NOT something to be taken lightly. PLEASE, for your own safety, don't ever think of it as a "cake walk". PLEASE corner those QBs and have them help you plan out the details.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 31, 2011, 04:06 PM
Where would you exactly mount the gun anyway?

Dnaltrop
October 31, 2011, 04:46 PM
I have absolutely nothing of merit to add to this conversation save for letting you know that my skin has turned a startling shade of emerald green.

Always had the daydream of owning a p-38 if ever I came into the financial standing to own a plane.

Time to see if Dr. Bronner's and a bristle brush can remove envy.

NoAlibi
October 31, 2011, 05:18 PM
FIVETWOSEVEN: "Where would you exactly mount the gun anyway?"

On the left wing because the actuating cables would have to be fed into the cockpit through the fuselage air vent so that they can be operated by the left hand because the stick is operated by the right hand. On he bottom of the wing because it would cause less disturbance to the airflow going over the top of the wing which is more critical (Bernoulli's Law). Finally, out board enough so as not to shoot the prop off! :eek:

Dnaltrop
October 31, 2011, 05:50 PM
I suppose the gearing for an interrupter for the MG to shoot through the prop would be a nightmare with a removable unit :D you'd have to modify the engine itself if memory serves.

NoAlibi
October 31, 2011, 06:16 PM
Dnaltrop: "I have absolutely nothing of merit to add to this conversation save for letting you know that my skin has turned a startling shade of emerald green. Always had the daydream of owning a p-38 if ever I came into the financial standing to own a plane. Time to see if Dr. Bronner's and a bristle brush can remove envy."

Let me set the record straight on this. I purchased this airplane in 2006 for $10,200. Most of you probably have cars and/or guns costing twice that much.

The secret is that the Cassutt is an experimental aircraft that, in my case is for aerobatics, is much, much less expensive than a certified aerobatic airplane which can easily cost well over $200,000. I've seen Cassutts costing two to three times more than mine. I know that I got a very good airplane for a very good price - Buyer beware!

There are many airplanes in the experimental category that can fill an incredible number of needs for a very low price. Of course there are some experimentals that cost huge amounts of money if you need to fly very high and very fast.

The caveat is that these aircraft are mostly amateur designed and built and the FAA's only obligation in issuing you the airworthiness certificate is that you use aircraft quality materials and workmanship. The range in craftsmanship is far and wide. If anyone is interested in buying one, it would be best to bring someone along with you that really knows what to look for.

If you're inerested in experimentals check out this link that has pictures of thousands of aircraft and their specs: http://www.pilotfriend.com/experimental/aircraft_list.htm

Dnaltrop
October 31, 2011, 06:24 PM
Oh I know of a few experimentals... I just have a "thing" for aluminum skin and rivets. :evil:

It's been a specific urge for THAT plane driving me nuts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-38_Lightning

I can't even imagine how much it would cost to make one air worthy if I even found a heap buried in a barn somewhere.

It's really a kick seeing the recent vectored thrust vehicles as well, Moller skycar being the other big "Never a million years" dream

There's a watercraft Jetpack now using vectored thrust as well, so it's coming along.


Didn't mean to imply you were Scrooge McDuck, Just quantifying my unrealistic dreams :D

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 31, 2011, 10:36 PM
On the left wing because the actuating cables would have to be fed into the cockpit through the fuselage air vent so that they can be operated by the left hand because the stick is operated by the right hand. On he bottom of the wing because it would cause less disturbance to the airflow going over the top of the wing which is more critical (Bernoulli's Law). Finally, out board enough so as not to shoot the prop off!

Would it be outside under the wing? If so then I hope you secure it in a way that you don't lose it, that would suck!

NoAlibi
November 1, 2011, 02:28 PM
Mike1234567: "We need more pics!!"

I didn't want to go off topic again, so I tried to PM you with a pic. It failed to go through because you used up your quota for PMs and you need to clear some out to get any more.....Doc

NoAlibi
November 1, 2011, 03:24 PM
Deleted

backbencher
November 1, 2011, 04:11 PM
NoAlibi - How are you intending to remotely charge the rifle, & then clear after firing if you don't use all the ammo? You could operate the charging handle w/ a cable, but how to eject the magazine?

NoAlibi
November 1, 2011, 04:32 PM
Dnaltrop: "Didn't mean to imply you were Scrooge McDuck, Just quantifying my unrealistic dreams"

It’s almost never too late to get into flying. You might not get that P-38, also one of my favorites, but you can get into the mystique of having one with a little imagination. (Walter Mitty syndrome?)

In the late 60s I flew a friend’s P-51 that he converted into a two-place with dual controls. It was an unforgettable thrill. When I get into that small cockpit of my Cassutt and experience the nimbleness of the control response, I’m in that P-51 for nowhere near the cost!


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151997&stc=1&d=1320358428
Cassutt cockpit - pretty Spartan, but it's all you need & just a little more (transceiver).

Since you know about experimentals then you probably know that even if you have a disability you don’t need a pilot’s license if you fly ultralights. I flew a Minimax ultralight with an enclosed cockpit that, even though it didn’t have the response of the Cassutt, gave the feel of a fighter plane. Imagination greatly improved the experience.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151998&stc=1&d=1320358495
Minimax Ultralight

Apologies for going way off topic…..Doc

Dnaltrop
November 1, 2011, 04:49 PM
By the time the old man got around to getting me into gliders I was over the height limit :(

Ultralight could be tempting, I don't see the wife being braver than commercial flight without a sit-down cockpit with room to move, so it would only ever hold my lanky rear solo.

Trainer 2 seat p-38 replica done in carbon fiber? :D, just cant get off that plane... too many airshows and up close tours of flying fortresses as a kid :D


Will stop derailing now... pair of linear actuators? one to push the bolt, one to lift the pusher free of the bolt before firing?

NoAlibi
November 1, 2011, 05:20 PM
Backbencher: "How are you intending to remotely charge the rifle, & then clear after firing if you don't use all the ammo? You could operate the charging handle w/ a cable, but how to eject the magazine?"

The gun will be charged prior to takeoff and the safety on safe and I don’t intend to eject the magazine. I have an untested idea on how to contain a malfunction where the gun will be safe flying to the range and back and to contain it if the entire magazine can’t be expended in the strafe. The premise is to keep the muzzle pointed down when the safety is engaged. To be safe it would entail flying over unpopulated areas to and from the airport which can easily be done. BTW, regarding your earlier post, in a constant velocity descent (dive) the G force should be 1 and should not effect the feeding.

Strykervet
November 1, 2011, 05:40 PM
I believe that Mike Dillon of Dillon reloading press fame has some aircraft with mounted machineguns on them.

I don't know the legalities under which those aircraft are allowed to exist, however.


For what it's worth, this is officially the most interesting thing that's been posted on THR.
Dillon has jet trainers with heavy weapons on them. If you could get in touch with him somehow, you might get your answers. I doubt he has a whole lot of folks to talk to about this, so you might make a buddy, you never know...

I agree, state law can and will have some funky stuff that has to do with hunting and poaching but affects non-hunters too.

NoAlibi
November 1, 2011, 09:16 PM
Strykervet: "Dillon has jet trainers with heavy weapons on them. If you could get in touch with him somehow, you might get your answers. I doubt he has a whole lot of folks to talk to about this, so you might make a buddy, you never know..."

Mike Dillon seemed to be a pretty down to earth guy. IIRC I called his office in the late 80s and told them I had an idea about how he could improve his rifle dies. He got on the phone and I told him what I had in mind. Looking back it was pretty naive, but he unhurriedly took the time to explain the error in my idea and he was darned nice about it.

With 20+ more years of reloading experience I'm going to reintroduce the idea with a new twist and maybe that will open the door to his sharing his flying experiences concerning my project. Thanks for the idea.....Doc

GoingQuiet
November 1, 2011, 11:52 PM
I know a warbird collector who wanted his F4F Wildcat to be as authentic as possible so he looked into putting real guns back in the thing.

Several problems cropped up.

1) Crossing state lines is pretty difficult because you have to get approval from ATF every time. A pod would probably be easily removed so that would be easier.

2) How would you secure the gun at the destination? You can't walk away from the airplane really. Pod helps that I guess, if it comes off quick.

3) It may not be legal to actually fire it from the air. Many states regulate than in their hunting laws. Also, depending on where you fired the guns, you might have to catch the brass which might be difficult.

He abandoned the plan but I don't believe he ever found anything in gun laws or FAA regulations that would have actually prevented it. I wouldn't want to be your liability insurance carrier....

That was all pre 9/11 too. I cannot imagine the attention you would get doing it today :)

Seems like Mike Dillon has something mounted on his UH-1 if I remember.
Just file a 5320.20!

exavid
November 2, 2011, 12:23 AM
There was a guy in Alaska who mounted a rifle on top of the skylight on his Supercub. It had a detachable box magazine that could be changed through a small hatch in the plexiglass. The gun was fired by a solenoid switched from a button on the stick. The gun was aimed with the airplane through ring sights on the cowl in front of the windshield. The gun was fired one time each time the button was pressed on the stick. The purpose of the experiment was to protect cattle on Kodiak Island from Kodiak bears.
It wouldn't be hard to rig up a switching arrangement that would fire several rounds with one pull of the trigger. If the trigger pulsed the solenoid as you pulled it back over several contacts I don't believe the gun would be considered at an automatic weapon. I used to have an "Activator" which was a plastic gizmo with a crank that mounted in a Mini14's trigger guard. Each crank pulled the trigger four times. With an extended magazine it was a lot like firing a full automatic rifle. It wouldn't be hard to adapt a rig like that to an airplane for a bit of ground strafing. Easier with a high wing planform though, you can easily mount a gun in the struts. I used to carry my 30-06 in a scabbard on the left side wing struts and snowshoes on the right side. I was seriously tempted to make a mount on the wing struts of my home built Avid Flyer float plane to mount skyrockets. They could be fired off with a model airplane glowplug and a remote switch. I never quite tried it but I still think it would have worked.

backbencher
November 2, 2011, 09:42 AM
NA, if the G load during the run is 1.0, then you could mount the Ruger upside down, remove the floorplate of a mag, & use a hopper - much cheaper than a fancy drum, as long as gravity feeds fast enough for your cyclic rate. You'd also be able to implement a magazine cut off, which would add to enroute safety. Easy, cheap, & fun to test. A small ceramic bulletproof plate could be used to block the muzzle during flight, w/out having to rotate the weapon back & forth - not that expensive in muzzle size. Also testable @ the range. Does the Ruger have a semi-auto/auto switch?

Dnaltrop
November 2, 2011, 11:48 AM
Exavid...

Pardon the neophyte, but I think any device designed to pulse the trigger several times in succession from a single trigger pull would fall under the same auspices that turn a micro hand-crank Gatling gun into a Machine gun by attaching a cordless drill by a flexi-shaft. if it's not a NFA item already, you may be exposing yourself to some nasty liability.

Any more experienced elders able to confirm my thought here?

NoAlibi
November 2, 2011, 11:54 AM
backbencher: "NA, if the G load during the run is 1.0, then you could mount the Ruger upside down, remove the floorplate of a mag, & use a hopper - much cheaper than a fancy drum, as long as gravity feeds fast enough for your cyclic rate. You'd also be able to implement a magazine cut off, which would add to enroute safety. Easy, cheap, & fun to test. A small ceramic bulletproof plate could be used to block the muzzle during flight, w/out having to rotate the weapon back & forth - not that expensive in muzzle size. Also testable @ the range. Does the Ruger have a semi-auto/auto switch?"

I already decided to rotate the Ruger 90 degrees clockwise (looking from the butt to the muzzle) to keep the fired cases from striking the underside of the wing. My initial plan was similar to yours in that I was going to use armor plate instead of the ceramic. I saw two problems: 1- could the plate withstand a full magazine of strikes; 2- testing could be a problem due to ricochets so close to the ground. I'm looking to do one or maybe two trials of ONLY 30 rounds each; I'm not trying to build a warplane. :D

The Ruger AC-556 has a 3 position selector: semi, 3 shot burst and full.

CountGlockulla
November 3, 2011, 11:43 AM
Sir I cannot speak to the legality of this or even whether it as a good idea, however, I salute you panache!

Shovelhead
November 3, 2011, 12:20 PM
You could always follow the example of the new "reduced funding" military.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bj0fdAQOI98/Sj_vvBSfMKI/AAAAAAAAA1g/lcaaNeaG6DQ/s400/Wing+gunner.jpg

NoAlibi
November 3, 2011, 01:34 PM
GoingQuiet: "Just file a 5320.20!"

I sure would like a solution - what's a 5320.20? Thanks.....Doc

NoAlibi
November 3, 2011, 01:57 PM
Shovelhead - I showed your photo to a skydiving, pilot buddy of mine that said that he would do it if I could find an airplane that could handle his weight and the asymmetric drag at that location on the wing.

Just so you don't think that he was boasting, this guy and two other skydivers cut a small log in half with a chainsaw while they were free falling!

Thanks for the grin.....Doc

PS - The aforementioned friend just read this post and said he could get one of his buddies to be mounted on the other wing to take care of the asymmetric drag problem! :D Only, he wasn't kidding!!! See what you're getting me into?!? :uhoh:

Dnaltrop
November 3, 2011, 06:33 PM
Actually, makes me think of the converted pods hung to carry casualties in emergencies... give your wing-hanging friends some cover from the wind....

When I was still riding, I have taken small birds in the visor at ... ahem... Freeway speeds :evil:

For a little bag of feathers and goo... they hit like a brick... I'd hate to see Helmet Vs Barnswallow at triple digit speed. :D

jim243
November 4, 2011, 03:04 AM
Would I be violating any BATFE rules? Thanks.....Doc


Nope, only FAA rules on carring Hazmat materials.

sansone
November 4, 2011, 01:20 PM
Sorry but that image looks like a model. :)
I also need some object for scale, Wouldn't be the first time a member confessed to joking with us. Nobody calling names, we're all buddies here

edit; OK I was mistaken, NICE darn aircraft, very jealous A&P here

NoAlibi
November 4, 2011, 03:05 PM
jim: "Nope, only FAA rules on carring Hazmat materials."

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying that the FAA considers ammo hazmat materials? I have a CCW permit and I carry a loaded pistol on my person everywhrere my permit reciprocity allows me to do so. In that regard am I viloating FAA regs when I'm flying? :confused:

NoAlibi
November 4, 2011, 03:17 PM
CountGlockulla: "Sir I can"t speak to the legality of this or even whether it as a good idea, however, I salute you panache!"

Panache? Boredom really. But thank you for the compliment and I appreciate the fact that this thread attracted your first post in almost a year's membership here. Let me be first to welcome you to THR!.....Doc

ole farmerbuck
November 4, 2012, 06:49 AM
watching

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