CZ 75B single action vs DA/SA


PDA






Split_overlap
October 27, 2011, 10:34 PM
I believe Iíve settled on buying a CZ 75B handgun in 9mm for occasional casual target shooting and, secondarily, to keep in my home. This will be my first semi-auto handgun. In addition to the standard double-action version, CZ offers this pistol in a ďSAĒ (single-action only) version. Iím thinking itís possible that the trigger on the SA may be a touch better than on the double-action, but I donít really know. Iíve read that the basic DA trigger is pretty decent once broken in, but I don't see why I really need the double-action.
Any comments on the SA trigger versus the DA?
Thanks.

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Mr.Blue
October 27, 2011, 10:42 PM
I prefer DA/SA, as all 4 of my CZs have that trigger. If you don't mind carrying cocked and locked, SA is great. If you go DA/SA, I'd go with the traditional safety rather than the decocker. The traditional safety triggers are better and easier to work on.

BossHogg
October 27, 2011, 10:48 PM
I prefer DA/SA, as all 4 of my CZs have that trigger. If you don't mind carrying cocked and locked, SA is great. If you go DA/SA, I'd go with the traditional safety rather than the decocker. The tradition safety triggers are better and easier to work on.
+1
I also perfer the safety over the decocker.

beatledog7
October 27, 2011, 10:49 PM
Good choice.

DA/SA over SA is a personal choice. Mine's SA, but I don't use it for SD or HD. I could, but I prefer other guns for both.

If I wanted to use it for SD or HD, I might have chosen DA/SA.

JDGray
October 27, 2011, 10:53 PM
Traded off a very good shooting DA/SA CZ75B, after buying a 75B-SA! I never shot the DA/SA gun in DA so what the heck;) The SA triggers are identical in the two, but the flat blade SA trigger helps with the long reach that CZs are noted for. With the flat SA trigger, a set of thin aluminum grips makes the gun very managable for most shooters.:)
You really can't go wrong with either pick!! I prefer the looks of the full slide, and beaver tail on the SA, over the DA/SA.

railroader
October 27, 2011, 11:08 PM
If you are asking about a standard cz75b da/sa and a 75b sa the trigger pulls are very similar. What is different is the frame and the controls. The sa has a different frame with a different beavertail which allows a higher grip. The sa also has extended ambi safeties and an extended mag release. For me the sa makes a great range gun and for a defense gun I like the da/sa version. I like keeping a gun around the house loaded with the hammer down. Mark

Zundfolge
October 27, 2011, 11:24 PM
On occasion I carry my CZ75SA. Carries C&L like a 1911.

Trigger is nice, but the other advantages of the SA over the DA/SA are the drop free mags and the extended beavertail.

PO2Hammer
October 27, 2011, 11:28 PM
I just bought a new 75b DA/SA w/safety.

The out of the box trigger was not very good on my 75b. I'm sure it would have been fine after a break in period, but I did a DIY trigger job from the instructions I found at the CZ forum. Now the trigger is very good. Not quite as nice as a good 1911 or S&W revolver, but pretty darn good.

Mr.Blue
October 27, 2011, 11:44 PM
FYI - All new American CZ75's have drop free mags.

RNB65
October 27, 2011, 11:57 PM
I have an SP01 Tactical. I like the decocker.

bullseye717
October 27, 2011, 11:59 PM
I've always had the newer guns with the decockers and I love them.

Bozwell
October 28, 2011, 12:52 AM
Both are good choices. For carry guns or game guns, I'd go with the system you're most familiar with or plan to practice with. For range guns, both are good choices. And, for that matter, you're correct - you don't need the DA pull for a range gun.

I'd try and see which is most comfortable to you. Personally, I've become a big fan of the custom shop SA trigger, which is adjustable for both pre and post travel.

Split_overlap
October 28, 2011, 02:30 AM
Thanks for the replies, guys. As I said, I'm a newbie with these CZ guns. I have one nice Dan Wesson revolver, but this semi-auto stuff is a learning adventure...which I enjoy. The input from others helps a lot.
It's a funny thing with me: I started out looking for a basic home defense gun, but my heart keeps pulling me toward beautiful, heavy (and expensive) competition guns like the CZ 75 Tactical Sport, which would work well as a club in close quarters. And, because of work, I have so little time that I let my membership in the one gun club in the area slide years ago. Nevertheless, I think the CZ 75B SA might be the best compromise for all around usefulness. I will continue to read the pros and cons about this.
Thanks, much.

Walt Sherrill
October 28, 2011, 08:38 AM
The sa has a different frame with a different beavertail which allows a higher grip.

As best I can tell, the frame differences are limited to a slightly shortened and upturned beavertail in the SA model. It really doesn't allow much (or any) of a higher grip, as only the END of the beavertail is shortened, and the web of your hand engages the beavertail before that point. (I've got both models and just compared them.) I think the stainless steel DA/SA models also have ambi-safeties, plus reversible mag releases, and a different beavertail, as well.

The SA guns do have ambidextrous safeties, so that's a plus -- and the safety levers are LARGER.

The two-way adjustable trigger, which may not be standard for all SA guns, is the real game changer, as it allows you to adjust out takeup as well as overtravel. (Some of the early SA guns came with triggers adjustable for overtravel only, and some had plastic triggers.)

The original poster should go to the CZ Custom Shop website and look at some of their enhanced guns. The prices are somewhat higher, but I hear nothing but raves about their work and their finished products.


.

railroader
October 28, 2011, 09:20 AM
Thanks for the replies, guys. As I said, I'm a newbie with these CZ guns. I have one nice Dan Wesson revolver, but this semi-auto stuff is a learning adventure...which I enjoy. The input from others helps a lot.
It's a funny thing with me: I started out looking for a basic home defense gun, but my heart keeps pulling me toward beautiful, heavy (and expensive) competition guns like the CZ 75 Tactical Sport, which would work well as a club in close quarters. And, because of work, I have so little time that I let my membership in the one gun club in the area slide years ago. Nevertheless, I think the CZ 75B SA might be the best compromise for all around usefulness. I will continue to read the pros and cons about this.
Thanks, much.

As Walt said check out CZ Custom. If you are willing to spend the money they have some really nice pistols for around $1000. I have a factory sp-01 shadow that I converted to single action only. That gun shoots like a laser and the trigger is xlnt. Here's a short dust cover sao shadow that would have a great trigger and would handle really well. http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowsablk.aspx The thing about the shadow pistols is they don't have firing pin blocks. This allows the single action only triggers to be adjusted to remove the pre travel in the trigger. Mark

Bozwell
October 28, 2011, 11:00 AM
Split, one thing that's worth pointing out is that CZ 75B's are pretty flexible when it comes to how they're setup, particularly if you get one with a manual safety. It's a pretty simple job to convert a regular CZ 75B to SA with the custom shop trigger. You can also remove the firing pin block pretty easily if you so desire (you'll have to open up the sear cage to get at the FPB lifter though), or oftentimes a good polishing of the FPB components can be all that's needed to smooth out the trigger. Point being, if you decide to go with a standard 75B, SA or otherwise, there's still plenty you can do or have a smith do to your CZ75B down the road to get it working the way you want it.

All that said, I've been eyeing this one from czcustom lately. http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowls-bblk.aspx

ATLDave
October 28, 2011, 12:05 PM
I think it's fundamentally the same as the DA/SA vs. SAO choice in any gun that offers both. DA/SA has a capability that the SAO does not offer, and lets you carry hammer-down while still having the ability to fire without manipulating the slide or hammer. It will also offer a "second strike," if you care about that.

But that capability comes with a price - the trigger assembly is asked to perform multiple jobs. Even from a cocked position/SA mode, the DA/SA trigger is going to have stuff going on that won't be happening with an SAO trigger assembly. The mechanisms that cycle the hammer don't go away because the hammer is cocked, and neither does (most of) the travel that would be under tension for a DA pull. The SAO is tasked with just one job: move the sear to release the hammer.

Because of this, the nicest SAO trigger will be nicer than the nicest DA/SA trigger, if you count things like length of pull, reset, weight, crispness, lack of staging, etc. That's why the less restricted divisions of competitive pistol shooting are dominated by SAO setups, and there's a division (production or the like) in many organizations that requires DA (or striker-fired). A DA/SA is a compromise. You should ask youself whether you need the capabilities that a DA/SA gets in exchange for the compromise. If you don't, then get the SAO.

JMHO, of course.

Walt Sherrill
October 28, 2011, 12:32 PM
But that capability comes with a price - the trigger assembly is asked to perform multiple jobs. Even from a cocked position/SA mode, the DA/SA trigger is going to have stuff going on that won't be happening with an SAO trigger assembly. The mechanisms that cycle the hammer don't go away because the hammer is cocked, and neither does (most of) the travel that would be under tension for a DA pull. The SAO is tasked with just one job: move the sear to release the hammer.

I don't think that's the case.

Once the hammer is cocked, the mechanisms are the same -- the other stuff happens BEFORE the hammer is cocked happens ONLY with the DA gun in DA mode.

In a DA/SA gun, after the first shot, that extra stuff is done automatically, by the slide and doesn't affect the trigger or trigger feel. The trigger and hammer in the DA gun in SA mode, like the SAO, is then tasked with just one job at that phase of the firing cycle. (The only thing removed when converting a DA/SA to SA is the disconnector.)

Schmeky,a frequent particpant here, who gunsmiths CZs (and who has developed some interesting aftermarket conversion parts), says the DA/SA gun's SA trigger can be made to be just as good as the SAO. I believe him, as I have a couple of CZs with SA triggers that are quite similar to the SAO gun, and I have a AT-84s (a true clone of the original CZ) that has a wonderful DA trigger, and a SA trigger that is actually BETTER than my well-gunsmithed 75B SA. (The AT-84s was supposedly built by Jim Boland, a big name gunsmith of the 80's and early 90's, but I can't prove it. It looks like guns he's done, and it's certainly well done. He generally marked them, and this one isn't marked.)

The real difference between the DA/SA and SA) 75Bs, then, is the trigger itself. The DA/SA guns can't use the flat, adjustable trigger that comes in most SAO 75Bs, while keeping DA/SA functionality. Without that trigger, there's no easy way to get ride of most of the take-up that seems so unnecessary in SA mode but which is needed if the gun is to continue to function in DA mode.

.

ATLDave
October 28, 2011, 01:09 PM
Really, Walt? The DA in SA mode has no extra travel? No movement of parts other than those that would move in SA mode? Maybe I've just been unlucky in being deprived of the experience of shooting a gun where that is the case; I've been under the impression that it just can't (quite) be done, although certainly it is possible to get very nice DA/SA triggers.

Walt Sherrill
October 28, 2011, 01:45 PM
Really, Walt? The DA in SA mode has no extra travel? No movement of parts other than those that would move in SA mode?

Once the hammer is cocked, what moves differently in a DA/SA gun than in a SA gun? What other parts must be moved in a DA gun that aren't moved in a SA gun? Maybe you know something I don't -- that has often been the case here on THR...

Bozwell
October 28, 2011, 02:40 PM
I think you guys are mostly saying the same thing. With the adjustable SAO trigger, you can eliminate as much of the take-up on the trigger pull as you want. When a DA/SA gun, you will always need the longer take-up because the gun needs to be able to function in DA mode too. So, I think the SAO trigger is going to come out ahead of the SA operation of a DA/SA trigger in that regard and generally people tend to consider the shorter SA pull to be better.

That said, both types of triggers can be setup with a light, crisp break, and the DA/SA trigger can be done such that the take-up on the SA pull is very smooth and free of any grittyness. I don't think it's correct to attribute factors such as crispness, weight, etc. to the style of trigger used (those are more related to things such as spring weights, friction and the hammer hooks IMO), but there will be more pre-travel involved in the DA/SA trigger's SA pull.

What that's worth though is subjective and ultimately up to the purchaser to determine. Personally, I've installed the adjustable SA trigger in one CZ so far and I must say that I really like it. At the same time, if you only let the trigger out to the point that it resets anyways, you won't be feeling the increased take up very often anyways. I'd just get the system you prefer at this point in time and know that it can be changed later if need be. You can't really go wrong with either choice IMO.

Split_overlap
October 28, 2011, 09:00 PM
Excellent discussion on trigger types. I am a tool-using gearhead but I just haven't gotten into working on triggers and such...yet.
And, yes I do like that CZ 75 Shadow that some of you pointed out, but, sadly, I'm limited to California's roster of certified firearms, and I'm not finding the Shadow (or quite a few other variants of the CZ 75) on it. I can't even buy the stainless steel or nickel-plated versions. Very aggravating...and stupid.
I agree that either the basic DA/SA or the single-action-only would probably work well for me, but I am beginning to lean toward the more mechanically simple SA.
Much thanks,
Rob in Ventura

Walt Sherrill
October 28, 2011, 09:28 PM
A quick note: several of us were seemingly disagreeing about the "trigger" of the guns, but it was more a question of what we meant.

The actual "break" of the trigger can be the same in a DA/SA gun in SA mode and with a SAO gun. It can be equally crisp and clean, etc. But, what follows -- the return of the trigger, and how much slack or takeup must be dealt with in preparing for the next shot can be quite different.

My comments were focused on the "break," while some of the others were addressing the break and following takeup for the next shot -- how far the trigger will go before reset, etc. There will be noticeable differences between the DA/SA in SA mode and a SAO gun, when both are optimized, when you look at that bigger picture -- but most of us "mere mortals" won't be able to take advantage of the extra speed or reduced trigger travel afforded by that well-tuned SA trigger. A really competent professional shooter will make the difference very obvious.

QUESTION FOR SPLIT_overlap: what can be done to an "APPROVED GUN" from the CA list, after you have it and turn it over to a competent gunsmith? That may be your solution.


.

railroader
October 28, 2011, 10:18 PM
Excellent discussion on trigger types. I am a tool-using gearhead but I just haven't gotten into working on triggers and such...yet.
And, yes I do like that CZ 75 Shadow that some of you pointed out, but, sadly, I'm limited to California's roster of certified firearms, and I'm not finding the Shadow (or quite a few other variants of the CZ 75) on it. I can't even buy the stainless steel or nickel-plated versions. Very aggravating...and stupid.
I agree that either the basic DA/SA or the single-action-only would probably work well for me, but I am beginning to lean toward the more mechanically simple SA.
Much thanks,
Rob in Ventura

Actually the only difference mechanically between the da/sa and the sa is the da/sa hammer has an extra hole where the disconnector is attached. When I converted my shadow to sa I left the disconnector in and just changed the trigger. It works fine sao.

PO2Hammer
October 29, 2011, 12:04 AM
I am a tool-using gearhead but I just haven't gotten into working on triggers and such...yet.
The CZ is very easy to work on and replacement parts are reasonably priced and readily available if you mess up. The tutorials over at the CZ forum make it easy.

1SOW
October 29, 2011, 01:01 AM
Traded off a very good shooting DA/SA CZ75B, after buying a 75B-SA! I never shot the DA/SA gun in DA so what the heck;) The SA triggers are identical in the two, but the flat blade SA trigger helps with the long reach that CZs are noted for. With the flat SA trigger, a set of thin aluminum grips makes the gun very managable for most shooters.

The SA triggers aren't the same. The DA /SA requires a longer reset to make the sear and disconnector engage again. The flat short-reach trigger can't be used on the DA/SA. With the DA "removed" the remaining SA can be the same and will work with the flat trigger.
P.S. There is a smith in W. Monroe, Mississsippi that modifies the sear and disconnector on the DA/SA and reduces the trigger reach around 1/4". The DA is WAAY better, The SA is truly great. Cajun Gun Works, posts as "Schmeky".

schmeky
October 29, 2011, 12:17 PM
The DA in SA mode has no extra travel? No movement of parts other than those that would move in SA mode? Maybe I've just been unlucky in being deprived of the experience of shooting a gun where that is the case; I've been under the impression that it just can't (quite) be done, although certainly it is possible to get very nice DA/SA triggers

In a CZ, the DA is shorter in "hammer" movement than in SA. In SA mode, the (DA) disconnector is just along for the ride, while the SA sear does all the work. Watch a CZ hammer in DA and you will see it doesn't move as far back as it does in SA before release.

To address the comment (as I interpret it, correct me if I am wrong) about not being able to acheive a good DA and SA function, it is not only possible to get an outstanding DA and SA, but is in fact, very doable. I have set up several CZ's with DA pulls in the 5-6# range, and ice crisp SA pulls of 2.25#, in the SAME pistol.

These simply have to be expereinced to be appreciated.

1SOW,

BTW, I'm in Louisiana where the alligators grow so mean :)

ATLDave
October 29, 2011, 12:33 PM
schmecky, I do not dispute that a DA trigger on a CZ can be excellent. I have fired a number of CZ's, and have a CZ (compact, DA/SA) on my short list of to-acquire guns. My point was only that a combination DA/SA trigger is never going to be quite as good across the board as a dedicated SA trigger. Otherwise, how do we explain the dominance of SA triggers in those competitive divisions that allow them? Why does CZ even offer the option? Surely it's not just to remove a capability.

JDGray
October 29, 2011, 01:07 PM
The SA triggers aren't the same. The DA /SA requires a longer reset to make the sear and disconnector engage again. The flat short-reach trigger can't be used on the DA/SA. With the DA "removed" the remaining SA can be the same and will work with the flat trigger.
P.S. There is a smith in W. Monroe, Mississsippi that modifies the sear and disconnector on the DA/SA and reduces the trigger reach around 1/4". The DA is WAAY better, The SA is truly great. Cajun Gun Works, posts as "Schmeky".

Other than the shape of the triggers, the 2 "feel" the same, and of course that would be in SA. Should have been more technical for some of you. Both can be worked on to be made excellent triggers, once you get rid of the positive hammer hook angle, and firing pin block garbage, they become very nice triggers. If buying a new gun with the best trigger pull out of the box, the two feel identical, is all I was saying:)

schmeky
October 29, 2011, 06:10 PM
ATLDave,

The only difference is the trigger pre-travel. It cannot be eliminated in a DA/SA configuration, but it can be in SA only.

1SOW
October 29, 2011, 10:28 PM
Jeez! schmeky I had 'another' senior moment. I do apologize.

LOUISIANA, GATORS, BEAUTIFUL CAJUN WOMEN, GREAT FOOD, GREAT BASS FISHING

eerw
October 29, 2011, 11:00 PM
interesting thread on SA trigger vs SA trigger in a DA/SA gun.

lots of opinions from what i am reading.

SSN Vet
October 31, 2011, 04:42 PM
To address the comment (as I interpret it, correct me if I am wrong) about not being able to acheive a good DA and SA function, it is not only possible to get an outstanding DA and SA, but is in fact, very doable. I have set up several CZ's with DA pulls in the 5-6# range, and ice crisp SA pulls of 2.25#, in the SAME pistol.

me likey the sound of this....

what's the going rate?

eerw
October 31, 2011, 04:50 PM
the main difference between the two is the length of free play in the trigger of a DA/SA gun in SA.

I just set up a DA/SA gun and the SA is under 2# and holds strong.
got another gun just set up with SAO trigger and its right at 2#.

The DA/SA gun the trigger will move past the reset point and come to a rest.
the SAO gun will hit the reset point and stop because of the design of the trigger.

Walt Sherrill
October 31, 2011, 08:04 PM
the SAO gun will hit the reset point and stop because of the design of the trigger.

IF it has the two-way adjustable trigger, and it's properly adjusted...

Bozwell
October 31, 2011, 08:17 PM
I think EERW is just referring to his own SAO gun, not all SAO CZ's. And I doubt anyone would convert to SAO without using the custom shop's trigger - what a sweet trigger it is. :) I still don't quite understand why CZ offers SAO models without using that trigger. Unless I'm missing something, I don't really see the advantage to the factory SAO trigger beyond its shape.

Walt Sherrill
October 31, 2011, 09:22 PM
I think EERW is just referring to his own SAO gun, not all SAO CZ's.

He probably is, but I know for a fact that many of the SAO guns, from the factory, are not optimally adjusted. And it's easy for a person, new to the trigger, to overadjust it -- with strange results.

I'm sure that all of the SAO guns coming out of the Custom Shop have the two-way trigger, but that was not always the case with SAO models that came straight from the factory. At one time, they sometimes came with one-way adjustable (over-travel only) plastic triggers. CZ then shifted to metal.

When I got my first SAO 75B, I had to buy the two-way trigger and add it. The gun I have now, which I bought used, came to me with the two-way trigger, but came from the factory with the one-way metal trigger.

When you buy one used, you need to investigate...

schmeky
October 31, 2011, 09:44 PM
SSN Vet,

EERW has done this and does it all the time. I do it as well. PM me if you want to know what the cost is. It's actually quite reasonable.

My website is: cajungunworks.com

Philo_Beddoe
November 1, 2011, 01:18 PM
I believe Iíve settled on buying a CZ 75B handgun in 9mm for occasional casual target shooting and, secondarily, to keep in my home.

Without a doubt, then get the SA. Bigger safeties to rest your thumb on, beaver tail grip, heavier to absord recoil, better trigger.

I think the da/sa version would be better for carry.

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