180 grain 357 and short barrel


PDA






lobo9er
October 28, 2011, 11:50 PM
All right I had a thought. !80 grain out of a 3inch sp101 wont use all of its powder so I've been told. so, will this generate a "45 acp effect" heavier bullet (for a 357) moving slower (for a 357) leaving more kinetic energy with the target, instead of wasting energy passing through a target? not sure if that made sense. Fired some 180 grain today which lead me to this, and was awesome. If I win the lotto or become a reloader I would pllnk with 180 grainers all day instead of 38's.

If you enjoyed reading about "180 grain 357 and short barrel" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
DPris
October 29, 2011, 02:10 AM
I don't think it makes much sense. :)
Denis

DWFan
October 29, 2011, 02:41 AM
A 125gr bullet at 1150 fps generates 367 ft/lb of muzzle energy.
A 180gr bullet at 950 fps generates 361 ft/lb of muzzle energy.
The 125gr load will have a "sharper" recoil due to the additional powder and quicker bullet acceleration. The 180gr however can retain its velocity for a longer distance.

lobo9er
October 29, 2011, 08:31 AM
Member




Posts: 505 A 125gr bullet at 1150 fps generates 367 ft/lb of muzzle energy.
A 180gr bullet at 950 fps generates 361 ft/lb of muzzle energy.


but those #'s would have been out of a 6 inch test barrel right? so the 180 grainer would be moving alot slower out of a 3 inch barrel. someone told me that a 357 out of a short barrel doesnt use alot of its powder so the bullet moves closer to 38's speed. so i'm thinking 180 grain or even 200 grain out of a short barrel would be moving slower therefore giving less chance of penciling through a target. (Or not.) i was just thinking the 45 acp claim to fame is that it is a large bullet moving slow (in the bullet world) so that it wont pass through a target leaving a target with all of its kinetic energy right? or I'm off my rocker. :)

zxcvbob
October 29, 2011, 09:03 AM
If anything, you've got it backwards. The heavier bullet will have more momentum. So it will penetrate a lot deeper, and in fact still retain a lot of its initial energy when it punches thru the other side.

DC Plumber
October 29, 2011, 09:39 AM
Hmmm, I'd say, if you are accurate with it and the blast or lack there of makes you feel that it is a good option, then carry it. The only flaw I see is if it is a hard cast bullet, then yaa, it might just make a nice .357 hole through your target, which might make it bleed out, but not make for an immmediate stop to the threat. Maybe Winchester 180 ammo loaded with the 180 partition might work well. Given that the media is reporting that a gajillion people are overweight, using a heavy slow bullet might be the way to go.

I'm not saying this is the case, but it seems like "the magic bullet" is less important than the fact that you actually carry your gun and are able to hit what you want with it. I know we've all heard this numerous times, but I think it's worth repeating.

ATLDave
October 29, 2011, 10:00 AM
It's counter-intuitive, but my understanding is that a heavier bullet for a given caliber will have more penetration, while the lighter/faster bullet will have more rapid/reliable expansion. Thus, a 180 is more likely to have the momentum to continue through the target. A 125 is more likely to have the energy to violently expand the projectile and have a chance at a TWC/BPW/"shock" effect beyond mere hole-punching. Different people have different views about the likelihood/reliability of the latter, so some want penetration uber alles. That's one reason why different, rational people will choose different bullet weights.

As I understand it, there is also an additional factor with short-barrelled guns. The bullet simply doesn't have as much time in the barrel, so the time that the energy of the gunpowder combustion can exert force on the base of the bullet is reduced. (That's why longer barrels generally mean higher projectile velocities.) A heavier bullet, by virtue of being slower, gives the gunpowder more time to act on it as it travels. Thus, a heavier bullet can end up with more momentum than a lighter bullet with the same gunpowder behind it. Then there's the whole science of powder selection, which I know nothing about...

lobo9er
October 29, 2011, 10:23 AM
Am I wrong with my idea of how a 45 acp works? I'm still learning so gotta ask stupid questions.

ATLDave
October 29, 2011, 11:08 AM
There is nothing magical about a .45. It "works" the same as any other bullet.

Bear in mind, though, that it is heavier-for-caliber that penetrates better. That's because, all else being equal, a wider bullet will penetrate less. (Think about it. Imagine a nail and a coin of equal weight and hardness. Which will penetrate better - the nail end-on or the coin face-on?) This is all quantified in things like sectional density and, to some degree, ballistic coefficient. But the concept is straightforward.

A 185 .45 is relatively light for the caliber. So it will have a greater tendency to stay in the target, expand violently, and stretch tissue (perhaps to the point of tearing). A 230 .45 is relatively heavy for the caliber, so it will move slower in the air, but with a greater tendency to keep going within the target medium.

There is nothing you can do to make a .357 bullet terminally perform exactly like a .45 performs. That doesn't mean they can't have the same effectiveness, just that they'll do it differently. If you make a .357 heavier to match .45 weight, you will increase sectional density and make it more penetrative. If you keep the weight the same and increase caliber, you will make it less penetrative. Make sense?

MCgunner
October 29, 2011, 11:35 AM
180 XTP out of my 2.25" SP101 gave me 1300 fps/662 ft lbs. The heavier the bullet, the slower it accelerates, and the more of the peak pressure it catches. That load is 13.8 grains AA#9 under a Hornady XTP/JHP 180 grain. This load only clocks 1400 fps/785 ft lbs from my 6.5" Blackhawk. I hunt deer and hog with it and it's deadly way past 50 yards. It groups 4" at 100 yards from the bench. I will not hunt those animals with my .45ACP, not enough umph.

Look at Buffalo Bore if you want similar performance from a short barrel in a heavy load and you don't handload.

lobo9er
October 29, 2011, 04:19 PM
Alright I guess I was mixed up. I thought the heavierand slower the more of a chance a bullet has a chance to stay with a target and not pass through. but.. it makes sense that a heavier bullet will keep on keep'n on

Deaf Smith
October 31, 2011, 07:44 PM
Check to make sure your 180gr loads don't keyhole. If the rifling twist is to slow they will.

200 gr loads tend to do just that.

Now for self defense that may not be so bad but for longer range shooter it is.

Deaf

Super Sneaky Steve
October 31, 2011, 08:47 PM
I had the same idea and I'm going to do some testing with my chrono soon. Currently I have a slow burning H110 in my 180 grain loads but I'll make some with HS6 and see if it's better.

Heavier bullets are usually less effected by shorter barrels as a general rule so we'll see.

I"ll be using a 3" SP101 as well.

sugarmaker
October 31, 2011, 09:25 PM
For penetration you need sectional density (mass divided by area). heavier bullets in a given caliber will generally penetrate deeper if construction is the same AND they are properly stabilized (meaning they spin fast enough)

Knockdown and transfer are generally associated with frontal area. 45ACP has lots of frontal area and, in ball form, will penetrate well. Expanding bullets...here's where the arguments start...penetration vs frontal area / fragmentation / expansion. Entire books have been written and bar fights started on this subject.

Me...I like big, wide slugs that go through things, I shoot 45ACP ball for defense and seirra 220FPJ 44 mags for hunting (the jackets come off but the lead stays intact). Next gun will be a 50 S&W that I plan to use some of my lead supply casting bullets for.

VA27
October 31, 2011, 10:14 PM
I'm a fan of the Federal 180gr CastCore cartridge. I've used it in my short SP101 and 6" Model 28. A hole at each end of the wound channel = more hot blood coming out and more cold air going in.

Missionary
October 31, 2011, 10:28 PM
Greetings
If I was going this way for a defense situation then I would be launching a 180 -200 soft cast grainer so it would open up all it could. A fast powder like Unique or ACC #5 should get good velocity without a huge fireball like 296.
The old 38S&W with a 200 grainer was figured to do the same.. but never had enough velocity to really thump hard enough. One of the reasons the caliber.41 Short Colt came along was to put into a medium frame revolver a fatter bullet with slightly more weight and a larger case capacity with BP.
The 44 Special with a 240 grainer at 900 fps is a known fight stopper. No reason a 180-200 grainer in .357 at 900 fps would not also be a good option.
Mike in Peru

788Ham
October 31, 2011, 11:04 PM
ATLDave,

Per post #7, you're saying the shorter barreled revolver doesn't get to use all of the combustion given a longer barreled revolver? When that bullet jumps from the cylinder, across to the forcing cone and then into the barrel, thats all the faster that bullet is ever going to go. The gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone allows the burnt powder and gases to escape, thats it! The bullet isn't going to gain speed like in a rifle barrel. This is why a lot of revolvers have had such a problem with the frame getting eaten away from around the forcing cone, too much heat and flame from higher pressures and hotter powders being used.

zxcvbob
October 31, 2011, 11:35 PM
Check to make sure your 180gr loads don't keyhole. If the rifling twist is to slow they will.
200 gr loads tend to do just that.
Now for self defense that may not be so bad but for longer range shooter it is.

If you can get the bullet stabilized in the air, and doing loopy-loops within an inch or two of penetrating a soft target, you are golden. (heavy British .38S&W loads were supposed to do that; also Russian AK-74's)

ATLDave
November 1, 2011, 09:34 AM
Per post #7, you're saying the shorter barreled revolver doesn't get to use all of the combustion given a longer barreled revolver? When that bullet jumps from the cylinder, across to the forcing cone and then into the barrel, thats all the faster that bullet is ever going to go. The gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone allows the burnt powder and gases to escape, thats it!

Really? So one expects velocities to stay the same or fall as barrels get longer in revolvers?

Deaf Smith
November 1, 2011, 10:37 PM
As a general rule the longer the barrel the higher the velocity until all the powder is burned, then the pressure starts dropping and in time bore friction will be greater than the pressure thus the velocity will the actully drop as the barrel gets longer.

This happens when you get such as .45 ACP in 16 inch barrels. 12 or so inches is about optimum.

Deaf

Strykervet
November 1, 2011, 10:50 PM
I understand that a 140gr. magnum load is the optimum load in a .357 magnum snub. Can't recall where I read it, but some study was done and it turned out the 140 was the best bullet in the snub. I have 140gr. Corbons in my 340PD. But due to recoil, I practice mostly with plain fmj 158gr. specials.

In the 686 6", I prefer the 125gr. XTP. 1700+fps is smoking. On the other hand, I used a 140gr. XTP and got 5 out of 7 shots on a sillhouette at 300m!

ATLDave
November 2, 2011, 09:30 AM
As a general rule the longer the barrel the higher the velocity until all the powder is burned, then the pressure starts dropping and in time bore friction will be greater than the pressure thus the velocity will the actully drop as the barrel gets longer.

Yeah, that's consistent with what I thought. Another poster suggested that this wasn't the case with revolvers due to the cylinder gap. I'm willing to learn, but that was news to me.

MCgunner
November 2, 2011, 01:02 PM
For penetration you need sectional density (mass divided by area). heavier bullets in a given caliber will generally penetrate deeper if construction is the same AND they are properly stabilized (meaning they spin fast enough)

Knockdown and transfer are generally associated with frontal area. 45ACP has lots of frontal area and, in ball form, will penetrate well. Expanding bullets...here's where the arguments start...penetration vs frontal area / fragmentation / expansion. Entire books have been written and bar fights started on this subject.

Me...I like big, wide slugs that go through things, I shoot 45ACP ball for defense and seirra 220FPJ 44 mags for hunting (the jackets come off but the lead stays intact). Next gun will be a 50 S&W that I plan to use some of my lead supply casting bullets for.

So, in your world where frontal area is the only important factor in "knock down" or whatever, why do you hunt with a .429" bullet when you could be using a more effective .451" bullet? Just wondering. In your world, it would seem, the .45ACP would be more effecting on all targets than any .429" bullet like the .44 magnum.

Me, I handgun hunt with a .30-30 Contender. It never takes more than one shot and they're usually DRT. .308" seems to work. Just sayin'....:D

MCgunner
November 2, 2011, 01:12 PM
Per post #7, you're saying the shorter barreled revolver doesn't get to use all of the combustion given a longer barreled revolver? When that bullet jumps from the cylinder, across to the forcing cone and then into the barrel, thats all the faster that bullet is ever going to go. The gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone allows the burnt powder and gases to escape, thats it!

Seems to be a lot of misconception on this board. Longer barrel revolvers do indeed produce significantly better velocity. I've done the chronographing, but didn't really need to to figure THIS out. Not much gas is lost at all percentage wise at the barrel/cylinder gap. If you think all the gas is lost at the barrel/cylinder gap, explain the blinding flash at a magnum revolver's MUZZLE.

From http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1707 fps

Cosmoline
November 2, 2011, 01:36 PM
The bullet gains velocity in longer barrels, but not because of "unburned powder" as some have suggested. The smokeless burns almost instantly, but the velocity increases as the gas forces the bullet down the bore.

that it is heavier-for-caliber that penetrates better

Exactly. It's sectional density, which plays a key role in penetration.

180's out of a .357 are interesting, but most of those bullets are either hardcasts that do not expand at all or bullets designed to expand when fired from a long barreled hunting handgun or carbine. The only heavy .357's I know of designed for good expansion at low velocities were the old heavy Black Talons, but the SXT's didn't replicate the heavies when they made the switch.

But there are a lot of 158's available for short bbl's which work very well.

As an aside, the original CCW revolvers were the 19th century "bulldog" style which often chambered very heavy soft lead slugs with weak powder charges. They were highly effective at close range, but the notion of a very large, slow soft lead round has few fans these days. Most want high vels jacketed expanders or deep penetrating harcasts. The closest modern loading would be something like a .44 Special with a heavy soft lead slug.

MCgunner
November 2, 2011, 01:39 PM
Cos is right. I wouldn't carry, nor did I develop it, my 180 XTP for self defense. I developed it for hunting medium game, deer and hogs, with my 6.5" Blackhawk. :D

ATLDave
November 2, 2011, 01:44 PM
Ah, Cosmoline, maybe we had a miscommunication. I certainly did not mean that the powder needed more burn time to impart higher velocities, just longer time with the bullet in the barrel.

Deaf Smith
November 2, 2011, 08:36 PM
The bullet gains velocity in longer barrels, but not because of "unburned powder" as some have suggested. The smokeless burns almost instantly, but the velocity increases as the gas forces the bullet down the bore.

No it does not burn instantly. Black power does but not smokeless.

Example.. look at any gun fired with slow burning powders and you will see flakes of UNBURNT powder on and inside the gun. Especially 2400 powder.

Deaf

MCgunner
November 2, 2011, 09:00 PM
Definitely the magnum revolver powders BURN slower than stuff like Bullseye that is used best in calibers like 9x19 or .45ACP. You can tell that by the fireball at the muzzle. Smokeless is classified as a "propellent" vs black powder which is classified as a "low explosive" (fast burner).

Cosmoline
November 3, 2011, 01:56 AM
Those bits of crud are residue and debris from the combustion that won't burn no matter how short or long your barrel is. The powder does NOT need barrel length to "finish burning." The expanding gasses accelerate the round as the round goes down the barrel. So the longer the barrel, the more velocity you get.

look at any gun fired with slow burning powders and you will see flakes of UNBURNT powder on and inside the gun. Especially 2400 powder.

I think you're seeing what's left of the chemical reaction. It happens VERY quickly. But let's say you're right and the 2400 didn't all burn up. Do you think a longer barrel makes any difference to that effect? In other words, do you think little bits of unburned 2400 are igniting in the barrel and pushing the bullet along as it goes? Conversely, do you think that the powder just gives up when the bullet leaves out of a short bbl and stops burning?

Logically it has to be the expanding gasses. As long as the barrel is sealed with the bullet they keep pushing it faster and faster forward as they expand more and more, but once the bullet exits the gasses, following along behind, explode out and no longer accelerate the bullet. That's why, as I understand it, the longer the barrel the faster the bullet--up to a point.

Deaf Smith
November 4, 2011, 12:19 AM
Those bits of crud are residue and debris from the combustion that won't burn no matter how short or long your barrel is. The powder does NOT need barrel length to "finish burning." The expanding gasses accelerate the round as the round goes down the barrel. So the longer the barrel, the more velocity you get.



I think you're seeing what's left of the chemical reaction. It happens VERY quickly. But let's say you're right and the 2400 didn't all burn up. Do you think a longer barrel makes any difference to that effect? In other words, do you think little bits of unburned 2400 are igniting in the barrel and pushing the bullet along as it goes? Conversely, do you think that the powder just gives up when the bullet leaves out of a short bbl and stops burning?

Logically it has to be the expanding gasses. As long as the barrel is sealed with the bullet they keep pushing it faster and faster forward as they expand more and more, but once the bullet exits the gasses, following along behind, explode out and no longer accelerate the bullet. That's why, as I understand it, the longer the barrel the faster the bullet--up to a point.
http://www.firearmsid.com/A_distanceGSR.htm

Read about UNBURNED Powder particles:

"Gunpowder residue can contain unburned gunpowder particles, partially burned gunpowder particles or the carbonaceous soot from completely burned gunpowder. The image below show a bullet hole surrounded by gunpowder particulate residue."

http://www.forensicscienceresources.com/Shooting.htm

"A contact shot to a target produces tearing, a large amount of burning, and unburned gun powder particles deposited in the bullet tract. "

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html

"The residue of the combustion products, called gunshot residue, can consist of both burned and unburned primer or powder components, and can be used to detect a fired cartridge."

And this explains why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_ballistics

"Using powder that is too fast creates a destructive pressure spike that usually has a very short duration. Using powder that is too slow produces poor energy and leaves a lot of unburned powder."

If you want less unburned power, say 2400, crimp the bullet in heavier so more of it burns before the bullet is released from the case by the crimp.

Deaf

Cosmoline
November 5, 2011, 02:10 AM
OK, but assuming the residue is unburned powder, what does that have to do with the bullet losing velocity in a short barrel? If the powder doesn't burn immediately, is it really going to be burning as it goes down the barrel? And is that what is TRULY making the bullet go faster as it goes down a longer bore?

Is there any relationship whatsoever between the length of the barrel and the amount of unburned powder?

voicomp
November 29, 2011, 11:10 PM
I know I am derailing a bit but I had a holster dealer try to persuade me there were no SP101's under 3". Just another Caveat Emptor alert....

Deaf Smith
December 1, 2011, 09:33 PM
OK, but assuming the residue is unburned powder, what does that have to do with the bullet losing velocity in a short barrel? If the powder doesn't burn immediately, is it really going to be burning as it goes down the barrel? And is that what is TRULY making the bullet go faster as it goes down a longer bore?

Is there any relationship whatsoever between the length of the barrel and the amount of unburned powder?
Pressure curve Cosmoline.

Since it is a progressive burning power it raises the pressure higher as the bullet moves down the barrel (and it's velocity speeds up as a result.) It is not a constant PSI (or really CUP) all the way down.

The unburned power simply did not add to the pressure curve and it just blows out the barrel (or into the action in many cases.)

Deaf

Super Sneaky Steve
December 1, 2011, 09:39 PM
I know I am derailing a bit but I had a holster dealer try to persuade me there were no SP101's under 3".
I have three. A simply rugged, a fobus and a crossbreed.

The following info I posted elsewhere, but I'll put it here too.

Ruger SP101 3"
180gr XTP 13.4gr H110 953fps 362ft/lbs

This was an average of 5 shots. Very mild recoil for a magnum load and very accurate as well.

I bet I could get much better numbers with my Bufflao Bore ammo but I'm afraid to touch one of those off in my snub.

If you enjoyed reading about "180 grain 357 and short barrel" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!