Tokarev TT3 or Polish P64


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Mudcat Stew
October 30, 2011, 10:45 PM
I recently gave up my Bersa .380 to my Mother in Law. It was my glove box gun. But something came up around her place and she felt like she needed something around the place...

I have been keeping my .22 revolver in the glove box for lack of anything else.

I can pickup either pistol for what I can budget, but not both.

The P64 reminds me of my Bersa, the TT3 is ugly as all get out.. but I have never handled one.

If you have experience with either one.. or both. Please sound off and let me know what your thoughts are.

edit add..
I have small hands. My wedding ring is a size 9, if that helps.

All the best,

Mudcat

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offthepaper
October 30, 2011, 10:57 PM
I've handled a P64 but do not own one. The one I handled/shot had the toughest triger of any HG I've ever fired. It was amazingly stiff. In single action it was much better and was even fairly accurate @ 20ft.
I have a Romy Tok in stunning shape. looks like new. powerful HG, crude, but totally functional. Hard to hit something @20'. also better in SA.

For the budget yor looking at you may want to consider a CZ82. 9x18, same rd as the P64. But much better made than either of the other 2. nice crisp trigger, great ergo's, some have finish wear but dont be swayed. You can always have it reblued if you want something purdy.
I love my 82. It goes to the range with me most everytime I go.

cooldude14
October 30, 2011, 11:00 PM
JG sales has CZ82s in .380 for $240

TennJed
October 30, 2011, 11:01 PM
Picked up a russian Makarov 380acp from a pawn shop yesterday for $199 total. I am in love. I am pretty sure if you look up glove box gun in the dictionary you will find a picture of the Makarov 380.

Give it some consideration.

GratefulGuy1234
October 31, 2011, 01:10 AM
Hi, I have a lot of experience with both. I would say that for what you want, the p64 is ideal. They can be had for very little cash, are a robust and accurate pistol and takes an ok cartridge. The TT33 will cost more, has a poor safety on it for SD and the 7.62 x 25 round would probably shoot through the BG and into something else... I can't believe how it penetrates. I love both guns, I'm working on a Polish collection but the p64 is a great SD gun, the Tokarev is for fun and nostalgia. Sights aren't the best, but with a touch of white paint on the front sight they become usable.

Scott

barnetmill
October 31, 2011, 01:25 AM
The tokarev with a chambered round and the hammer cocked beats any 9mm makarov or .380ACP. On steel plates it puts them down at least as well as 9mm (7.62x25 has the 85 grain bullet at 1450fps). If you were carrying the gun concealed I could see some preference for the more modern designs in the anemic .380 or 9mm makarov. For a glove compartment gun in a car it should be feasible to rack the slide back or maintain the piece with a loaded chamber and on 1/4 cock position. If you need to penetrate automobile sheet metal the 7.62x39 is one of the best combat rounds out there for doing that. It was designed for penetration of winter clothing and of horses in russia. Soldiers use to fight on horseback in russia.

jmstevens2
October 31, 2011, 07:13 AM
People describe the .40 S&W as "snappy" I don't think so. I do describe my Tokerev that way. I would not feel undergunned carrying it. I only wish I could find jhp ammo for it in case I ever needed to.

Jbabbler
October 31, 2011, 07:33 AM
The P64 would be the perfect carry gun if it were drop safe and had replacement parts available. I own both a P64 and a PA63 and if I ever had to carry one of the two it would be the PA63 based solely on the fact that it has a firing pin block.

Fastcast
October 31, 2011, 07:44 AM
Of the two you listed, I'd pick the CZ82 with FMJ for a glove box pistol. ;)

GBExpat
October 31, 2011, 07:57 AM
I am a TT33 FanBoy.

I initially held off buying any when they were readily & cheaply available 8-10 years ago (back when SOG had a pic of a case of Polish TT33s on their homepage ... LN for, like, $140?) because I, too, thought they looked quite ugly & ungainly ... until I finally bought one and ... WOW ...

Flat, concealable, light-weight, comfortable (I take Large-size gloves and my long-thin-fingered hands just fit the standard TT33 grips), hard-hitting, little recoil, accurate, long range and reliable.

Now, along with that original Polish I own a 2nd Polish, 1 Romanian, 3 Russian and 4 Yugos. :)

Onmilo
October 31, 2011, 09:00 AM
I own a Romanian Tokarev. Great handgun, fun to shoot.
I have done some shooting with the P64 Polish pistol and am less than impressed.
I consider neither gun suitable as a serious defense gun.

Go forth and find another Bersa .380, used if neccessary, they make better defense guns than either of the surplus weapons in todays modern world.

EMC45
October 31, 2011, 09:08 AM
Just saw the P64 is C&R eligible and UNDER $200. Wish I still had my C&R....

harmon rabb
October 31, 2011, 12:14 PM
If you want to keep it in your glovebox, the Tokarev is out because there's no safe way to keep one chambered. The P64 is a fine little weapon... but if it's going to sit in your glovebox anyway, why not getting something a little bigger and a little more fun at the range? Get a cz-82. They're under $200 these days, have 12rd mags, and have sweet triggers.

GBExpat
October 31, 2011, 01:13 PM
Go get a Glock or a 1911 and use that commie 9x18 junk for paperweights and small boat anchors. The Commies did and you bought their junk. The only good commie gun is the true Makarov. Just my opinion.

Your opinion appears to be rather, um, unstable. Just yesterday in this thread you posted:

Google the P64 and check out the users web site. Great little gun for the money. Kicks like hell though!

Dain Bramage
October 31, 2011, 01:27 PM
Your opinion appears to be rather, um, unstable.

His P64 kicked a puppy at 2:50 AM.

k soze
October 31, 2011, 01:33 PM
You gave your mother in law a gun!!!!

I'm happy for you and having a good mother in law, my current mother in law would have no issues with me dropping dead now that she feels that no more of my sperm is needed.

My ex mother in law was a gem, I know she would not have shot me. . This one.... well, best not to take chances.

vellocet
October 31, 2011, 02:36 PM
Get the 64. It is double-action, has a realistic general-use caliber, small and cheap. Also, as much as I like them, the first blast from a tok in a car will affect your second shot. And the cz82 would be better than either. Still 200 c+r.

harmon rabb
October 31, 2011, 04:35 PM
The key word was for the "MONEY". If commie junk is all you can afford so be it. I would never trust my life to 50 year old commie junk. YMMV!
Lol. I've had problems with brand new rugers, sigs, and kel-tecs; never a problem with my "50 year old commie junk."

Fastcast
October 31, 2011, 05:06 PM
I would never trust my life to 50 year old commie junk. YMMV!


I'll venture a wild guess and say the Tok is much more revered, the world over, as compared to the great Argentinian pistole maker Bersa.

Buck Kramer
October 31, 2011, 05:37 PM
I have several ak's and variants, and I have shot a few tt-30's and m64's. To say that it is commie junk along with nothing to back it up is honestly pretty ignorant. Read the book "The Gun" by CJ Chivers and you will find how rigorous the testing was on a soviet bloc weapon before it was even manufactured. There is also much information on how the early m-16's were forced through the system and cost thousands of lives. I am not trying to turn this into an ak vs ar debate, what I am saying is that you are making a HUGE generality about tens of millions of weapons and that is not fair to say without a source or anything to back it up. I have had smith and wesson problems, keltec problems and ar problems, never a combloc problem.

Back to the point the m-64 trigger pull is about 14 lbs, might be a little heavy for little hands. I have considered it for such use because they are so cheap and there wouldn't be a love loss if someone stole it.

amd6547
October 31, 2011, 06:10 PM
I have owned all three...CZ82, P64, and Tokarev. Of the three, the Tokarev is the most serious combat pistol. Perfectly suitable for a glove box.
The P64 is an excellent CCW, and much more accurate than it has a right to be.
The CZ82 is the best all around pistol of the three.
If somebody was shooting at me, and all three of these pistols were lying on a table, I would grab the Tok...no doubt in my mind.

JustinJ
October 31, 2011, 06:21 PM
To me it is a no brainer. If those pistols where any good they would still be in military and police service in commie land.

So any gun that is no longer in service is junk but then you recomend getting a 1911? Progress happens but doesnt mean preceeding technology was junk. That is a no brainer.

And speaking of major no brainers the former soviet union states are no longer "commie land". Not that it makes much sense to judge a gun by political ideologies in the first place.

Deaf Smith
October 31, 2011, 07:46 PM
They Yogo Tokarev's with the 1911 style safety are excellent!

I recommend them and Maks for shooters.

Deaf

Dr_2_B
October 31, 2011, 09:09 PM
Not sure how the CZ82 came into the discussion because I didn't see it in the OP. But I agree it would be the best way to go. OP, if you haven't tried the double-action trigger on the P64, you need to do this. That heavy trigger pull is hard to describe. It's not so much that you run out of finger strength, but that it feels like you run out of distance to pull the trigger before it goes off. I was pretty gun-ho about the P64s, until I pulled the double action trigger.

Jbabbler
October 31, 2011, 09:24 PM
The key word was for the "MONEY". If commie junk is all you can afford so be it. I would never trust my life to 50 year old commie junk. YMMV!
you are so cool

mongo4567
November 1, 2011, 01:02 AM
I really like the T-33 of the two. They shoot really well and the round is a powerhouse. I've shot a P64, they are fine (especially after a spring kit to correct the terrible trigger)...I just like other options better.

Shadow 7D
November 1, 2011, 01:18 AM
really depends, I woudl suggest that you try them first, as they are two completely different guns, one is a modified browning, the other a weird sorta walther.

the P64 is known to have a monkey cruncher DA, some have gauged theirs at ~20#
but you can bring down via respringing it, BUT it then lowers the SA that is ~3-4# to start with.

Tok has a funny grip angle

tinygnat219
November 1, 2011, 05:45 AM
Ok, a LOT of chaff in this thread that should be discarded. However, there are some nuggets you should consider.

TT-33: Pros: gun is cheap, plinking ammo is cheap. Cons: Aftermarket safety for "importation", nothing but really unreliable FMJ commie surplus ammo out there. No way to keep a round safely chambered. If you trust that aftermarket safety that was slapped on to keep the ATF happy, it's a bad thing.

P-64: Pros: Gun is cheap. It's a TDA gun, with a safety / decocker. Cons: REALLY REALLY Tough DA pull, with a LIGHT SA pull. Not sure I'd trust something with that kind of a DA trigger. SD Ammo is kind of tough to find.

CZ-82: Best Commie Surplus gun out there. High capacity (12 rounds), NICE TDA trigger, manual safety that one can ignore, Cost. Cons: chambering.

I'm at least glad no one suggested the Nagant Revolver. I mean, there are better choices for Self-Defense guns than guns that were obsolete prior to WWI.

ultradoc
November 1, 2011, 07:35 AM
The 64 is nice. Stiff trigger though. Ammo is plentiful and you can probably find a 64 for $200 [or less]. Have you thought about a Makerov? Same cal.but a better gun. Good luck

harmon rabb
November 1, 2011, 12:15 PM
The DA trigger on the 64 is fine after a spring swap that takes 5 minutes to do.

jerkface11
November 1, 2011, 12:30 PM
I'd go with the tokarev. Load up some XTP's for it and there you go.

Shadow 7D
November 1, 2011, 02:56 PM
Um jerk
were do you find decent wight XTP's for a .32 cal?
all I can find is for .32acp and those are LIGHT for a tok

mgmorden
November 1, 2011, 03:04 PM
Um jerk
were do you find decent wight XTP's for a .32 cal?
all I can find is for .32acp and those are LIGHT for a tok

Tok's aren't .32 cal (.312"). They're .30 cal (.308"). Hornady makes a 90gr XTP for them. I've loaded them myself.

MidwayUSA has them:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/729749/hornady-xtp-bullets-30-caliber-309-diameter-90-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100

group17
November 1, 2011, 03:12 PM
"JG sales has CZ82s in .380 for $240"

That's what a NIB Bersa 380 goes for that comes with a lifetime warranty.
Plus he knows how to shoot it and can get all the parts he wants. Why switch
from a gun that works. I bought mine slightly used for $180.

Scimmia
November 1, 2011, 03:19 PM
Tok's aren't .32 cal (.312"). They're .30 cal (.308").

Depends on the Tok, the bores vary a lot. Some would be better of with the .312" bullet. I've got one that slugs at .3115", the .32 cal bullets would be perfect assuming they'll take the velocity.

were do you find decent wight XTP's for a .32 cal?
all I can find is for .32acp and those are LIGHT for a tok

I certainly wouldn't call 85 or 100 grains LIGHT for a tok.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/603181/hornady-xtp-bullets-32-caliber-312-diameter-85-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/405340/hornady-xtp-bullets-32-caliber-312-diameter-100-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100

Mudcat Stew
November 1, 2011, 08:41 PM
Thanks for all the input THR folks!!:D

My situation for a glove box gun has been resolved. Sad to say I didn't buy any of the discussed pistols.

A few years back I loaned my Taurus PT58 to my brother in law. It was a real shiny gun, not sure if it was nickle or polished stainless.

He had a near break in and no gun. I had originally bought it for my wife's car, but she had stopped carrying it when she started teaching. Back then he was just starting out his career and to broke to buy a gun, so I loaned it to him.

Since then he has finished his CPA and is a partner at a firm and is doing well for himself. I told him I needed to get it back for my car, but would loan him a nice little .22 revolver till he decided to buy a gun that was good for HD.

He's dropping it buy this weekend. I never was crazy about the PT58. It was a bit thick handled for the size of it, but having 12 shots is a plus I guess.

Thanks for all your input. Sorry I sent you on a wild goose chase... :uhoh:

As a side question. I imagine my Mother in Law would take no offense to taking the Taurus and me picking my Bersa Thunder .380 backup. Thoughts?

Onmilo
November 1, 2011, 10:58 PM
She might like those additional shots and she isn't going to be carrying the gun anyway,,,,right?:)

makarovnik
November 2, 2011, 05:25 AM
I have both. The TT33 is not ugly at all. It's quite sexy and carries well because it's so thin. Both are very accurate but the TT33 is more pleasant to shoot and has a better trigger.

Dr_2_B
November 2, 2011, 07:03 AM
You might tell mom-in-law that you have a better option for her. Telling her Taurus has been around longer, etc. Will she fire the thing? If so, you might let her fire the two. I'd be willing to bet the PT58 offers less felt recoil. I would think she would see it as an upgrade. And if she doesn't, you're not in bad shape at all having the Taurus in your glove compartment.

Oldnoob
November 2, 2011, 10:15 AM
My vote is on Tok over P64. I love the 7.63x25 round. The Box o'truth tested this round out of CZ 52 and the it performed amazingly.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/edu25.htm

I too have a small hand, so I actually like my Tok much more than my CZ 52.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f185/johell/My%20gun/NorincoCZ52.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f185/johell/My%20gun/CZ52Norinco.jpg

Either way, if this is all you can afford. There are some none surplus ammo made my S&B and Winchester. Cheap gun beats no gun.

brnmuenchow
November 2, 2011, 10:19 AM
I have a Yugo M57 which is a Yugo copy of the Soviet TT-33 type pistol. It may not be pretty, but it shoots like there was no tomorrow! If I could find some 7.62X25mmTT in HP conf. I would have that thing ready to go for home defense in a heartbeat.

MCgunner
November 2, 2011, 04:33 PM
I've handled a P64 but do not own one. The one I handled/shot had the toughest triger of any HG I've ever fired.

The P64 responds miraculously to a Wolff spring kit. Mine's pretty nice, though the transition from DA to the VERY light SA is a little hard to get used to. I had a Tok, Norinco in 9x19. Actually, I've had 2. They were flat, but not pocket sized like the P64. Weren't as accurate as the P64, but adequate for a defense gun and shot to POA. the grip angle on the Tok was crappy IMHO, too, where my P64 is a superb point shooter. The P64 is just a little gem once you get a spring kit in it, one of the current milsurp bargains. Any of the eastern block 9x18s would serve you well in your application and IMHO better than the Tok. My Toks fed and functioned fine, just don't think they were the bargains that the P64 is. I liked mine so much I even sprung for some wood Marschal grips.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2w1saxs.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/25tl36r.jpg

Kiln
November 3, 2011, 02:36 AM
Just a quick thing to think about: My P64 is not a comfortable range toy...it often leaves bruises on the web of my hand after a box of ammo. For concealed carry it would be pretty good and for a nightstand gun it would serve its purpose well also. Just don't get it thinking that it'll be one that you enjoy shooting often.

harmon rabb
November 3, 2011, 08:14 AM
Just a quick thing to think about: My P64 is not a comfortable range toy...it often leaves bruises on the web of my hand after a box of ammo. For concealed carry it would be pretty good and for a nightstand gun it would serve its purpose well also. Just don't get it thinking that it'll be one that you enjoy shooting often.
I second this. The p64 is probably the best bargain price carry gun out there -- it's small, about the size of a kel-tec pf-9 -- but it is NOT fun to shoot.

Deaf Smith
November 4, 2011, 12:30 AM
I have a Yugo M57 which is a Yugo copy of the Soviet TT-33 type pistol. It may not be pretty, but it shoots like there was no tomorrow! If I could find some 7.62X25mmTT in HP conf. I would have that thing ready to go for home defense in a heartbeat.
Well if you reload...

http://www.hornady.com/store/.308-30-CAL-c-417/

30 Mauser .308 86 gr RN

It's a soft point! And .30 Mauser is basicly a 7.62x25!

Deaf

Cactus Jack Arizona
November 4, 2011, 03:17 AM
Pay no attention to those who would use the term "commie junk". They wouldn't know a good gun if it tap-danced across their nose. You see, the "former" Eastern Bloc countries make great firearms. The only difference is that Eastern Bloc guns are built to work. And that they do. They are not concerned like we are about beautiful finishes, fancy grips and cool tactical add-ons. :eek:

Now, as far as your Mom-in-Law is concerned, why not just get another Bersa? The P64 has quite the kick and is not a comfortable gun to shoot. For instance, the PA-63 9x18 Mak is quite the handful. My friends would only shoot two or three rounds through it, they'd put it down and walk away from it. From what I've understood, the P64 is quite a bit worse. Again, why not just purchase another Bersa? :neener:

amd6547
November 4, 2011, 06:55 AM
I agree...the P64 is an excellent pistol, but I do not enjoy shooting it.

harmon rabb
November 4, 2011, 07:34 AM
Pay no attention to those who would use the term "commie junk". They wouldn't know a good gun if it tap-danced across their nose. You see, the "former" Eastern Bloc countries make great firearms. The only difference is that Eastern Bloc guns are built to work. And that they do. They are not concerned like we are about beautiful finishes, fancy grips and cool tactical add-ons. :eek:

Now, as far as your Mom-in-Law is concerned, why not just get another Bersa? The P64 has quite the kick and is not a comfortable gun to shoot. For instance, the PA-63 9x18 Mak is quite the handful. My friends would only shoot two or three rounds through it, they'd put it down and walk away from it. From what I've understood, the P64 is quite a bit worse. Again, why not just purchase another Bersa? :neener:
The PA-63 can be made somewhat tolerable with a heavier recoil spring. The P64 not so much. Which is unfortunate, as it has a GREAT trigger in SA.

Weirdly, the Makarov and P83, both of which are about the same size and weight as the PA-63, do not kick nearly as much and are perfectly comfortable for extended range sessions. Go figure.

brnmuenchow
November 4, 2011, 01:00 PM
Well if you reload...
:) Deaf Smith:
This is something I have been considering now for the last few months.
I generally always used factory ammo, but do to some other types of ammo that seem hard to get at times, I have been seriously considering it.
Thanks for the link.

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