[alaskanativeson]

Since the local Walmart has a perfectly serviceable knife for $15.00, why would I spend the kind of money it takes to get these?

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g235/Rodgersplace/PB130025.jpg

Obviously the one on top is the least expensive and the most used, but I believe I still paid close to $300 for it. Why?

[alaskanativeson]

Well the answer starts with sunglasses back when I was 13 or so. There was a really great sporting goods store just down the road a little ways from me callled Sport Chalet. The main guy who worked there was a real outdoors enthusiast, always willing to share his expertise and advice.

Like many young hipsters in the late 70s, I was never without a pair of I Ski sunglasses to enhance my cool. They cost $4.99 at his store, I remember well because I went through a LOT of them. One day I was looking at the Ray Bans he had in a case on the counter and asked why anyone would pay $49 for a pair of sunglasses. He asked how many pairs of "I Ski" or "Foster Grant" sunglasses I had bought from him, I had to honestly answer I had no idea, it was far too many.

He explained that was why, because sometimes it was better to spend more money to buy quality that would last than it was to buy something cheap that died young. He pulled out a pair of small Aviator Ray Bans and explained that he had bought them at a base while he was in Vietnam, that he wore them the whole time he flew chopper in that war, and that he still had them. Knowing everything (as most 13 year olds do) I explained that I couldn't afford to do that because my glasses got lost or broken too often. He went on to explain that if I spent more money on something quality, I might be inclined to be less careless and take care of my equipment.

While I didn't follow his advice for a little while, after another 4 or 5 pairs I bit the bullet and ponied up over 2 months worth of newspaper tips to buy a pair of Ray Bans. To finish that tale, I was still wearing that same pair of Ray Bays over 10 years later when I got married. I've since moved on to a pair of Maui Jims when I'm driving and a pair of Costa Del Mars when I'm riding the motorcycle, but the principle holds.

I found this principle to be especially true of knives. While I dearly love my Randall knives for their beauty and quality, my Busse knives are their equal in quality of construction (and I would even argue the INFI is a better steel than Randall uses) and my Busse Active Duty gets carried most every day to complement my Benchmade Griptilian (since my Sebenza is still in the hands of a friend I loaned it to.)

[alaskanativeson]

That's not to say I don't appreciate the quality of my Moras:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g235/Rodgersplace/PB130026.jpg

But if I'm depending on a knife to take EVERYTHING I can deal it and still function like a champ, my Busses get the call. I know it'll take it.

[Valkman]

Quality knives are worth every cent!

[Bobson]

My answer is far shorter than your's, OP.

"I wouldn't."

[DM~]

I don't think you have to spend $300 to get quality!

DM

[alaskanativeson]

Agreed, my Moras are quality. My Bucks have been quality. My Gerbers have been quality. However, none of them are in the league of the quality of my Busses. Or my Randalls, Or the two VERY beautiful knives Valkman made for me.

[Valkman]

I don't think you have to spend $300 to get quality!


No one said you did. But with expensive knives you get what you pay for. I have several that cost $400 or more and they are very special to me.

[nevermas]

Life's too short for cheap knives.

[W.E.G.]

You gotta play mumbley-peg with something.

[Bobson]

Life's too short for cheap knives.
Most expensive knife I currently own was around $30. Most expensive knife I've ever owned was around $50.

Never, in my entire life, have I found myself wishing I had a higher quality knife.

[Ron James]

Why buy a Mercedes when you can always find a used Yugo. You want to buy an inexpensive knife, then have at it, just don't yap at those who want quality over quantity unless you are just trying to start a flame. I have a A.G.Russell lock back on my belt right now, it is 10 times any other lock back I've ever seen..:banghead:

[zhyla]

As compelling as the OP's salesman story is (shocker punchline: salesman wants you to buy the priciest item), there's obviously diminishing returns to how much money you fork over for a knife. In my opinion, if you like the design, the steel is something decent (and properly tempered), and it's put together right, it doesn't really matter what it cost. It will still get the job done.

There's also something to be said for a knife being cheap enough you don't mind truly abusing it. I'd never pull out a $300 knife to pry at something sketchy, I'd go get a screwdriver like I'm supposed to.

I get why people buy expensive knives. Knives are basically man jewelery.

[Brian Williams]

My most expensive knife is a Case Bose collaboration Backpocket @$79, my most expensive is a Case Trapper I had the Spey blade removed from @ $45 + $65 to customize. My most expensive fixed blade is a Wheeler 3 finger which will be surpassed by a Sam1911 3 finger to my specs when he gets to it. the key is "to my specs".

[ArfinGreebly]

I have more than a few knives. Actually, I have more than several.

Among the many knives I have, there are certainly a bunch of inexpensive ones.

Some of the inexpensive ones even get used, and some of those get used a lot.

However, as I've become accustomed to quality, I've found that a few percentage points of improvement can double the price of a knife, for the simple reason that things like better fit & finish take more actual manual labor and personal attention.

A modest amount of cash will buy decent quality production knives, and a little more cash will add upgraded steels and handle materials. And a little more cash will get a knife that's had a little more attention to fit and finish.

And by the time you get a knife that's been completely hand fitted, smoothed and joined and polished and tuned and lovingly hand sharpened, so that even the subtle burrs and ledges and gaps are gone, you have several hours of someone's time tied up in the knife, and those hours come at a price.

Production lines and automation make it possible to push out respectable quality in affordable quantities. Economies of scale and all that.

Near perfection may only represent a few percentage points of quality, but a $50 design can quickly become $150 worth of knife with just a few upgrades. Use of scarce materials in handles. Use of a steel that's only a little harder, only a little tougher. A couple of hours of personal attention by an experienced craftsman to a single knife.

Sometimes there are "intangibles" that make a knife worth more to a limited cross section of buyers. I own a Paul Presto. $150 retail. It's not "orders of magnitude" better than my Gerber Silver Knight at $40, but the intangibles made it worth the purchase.

I may never own a Sebenza, but odds are that I will someday plunk down $200 or more for a Buck/Mayo TNT. Some of it is quality. That knife makes me smile just to hold it. Action is butter-smooth. Some of it is intangibles.

I am much more inclined to consider knives in the $100 range today than I was three or four years ago.


My story of "why is quality worth it" dates back to the days when I used cheap stick pens (BIC and the like). Couldn't hang onto a darned pen. Then one day I started carrying a Parker and, while I couldn't keep a fifty cent pen, I had no trouble hanging onto a $5 or $10 pen. My pens have continued to go up in price over the years. Now, all I carry are Fisher Space Pens, and pens made specifically for that refill (like the Embassy Pen from County Comm). Every pen I own cost $25 or more. Some as much as $90. I haven't lost a pen or had one "walk off" in decades. And these don't break.

Funny how that works.

I spend a little more for stuff, I seem to take better care of stuff, and I'm happier with the way it performs.


That's my mileage.

Mileage can vary.

[JVoutilainen]

If it is truly and honestly handmade I can understand the price. Considering that making a simple puukko knife, for example, takes about eight hours of work and depending on the model 10-20€ (14-30 dollars) worth of materials it is a minor miracle you can get them for 100€ (140 dollars), or sometimes even less. That means some professional knife makers volunteer to produce high art at slave wages. If you want to make 10€ an hour in Funland you have to bill 25€+the cursed VAT (23%) for every hour of work... and 10€/hour would leave you 50% underpaid considering the average income, which is about 3200€/month.

So, why would I pay 300 dollars, or over 200 euros for a knife? I would pay because I prefer knives not made by slaves or robots. Also, I want to support the knife making culture and tradition in my country and abroad.

[alaskanativeson]

@ ArfinGreebly:

Funny you mentioned the pens you did. What pen do I carry? A stainless/24K Parker, but it has a Fisher Space Pen refill inside of it. Having lived on the coast of the Bering Sea I came to appreciate a pen that would still write outside when it was 30 below zero. However, my Christmas cards are filled out with a Parker Duofold fountain pen, the same model used to sign the surrender treaty with Japan at the end of WWII abourd the USS Missouri.

[ColtPythonElite]

Why buy a Mercedes when you can always find a used Yugo

Eh, I buy cheap knives, sunglasses, and ink pens so I can afford to drive a Mercedes. Heck, I think the check I wrote to pay for the car was even done with a free pen from some politician's election bid...LOL.

[Kingcreek]

for some folks, the pride of ownership or level of quality is worth what it costs. for others, it ain't. That's why they sell so many knives at so many different price points.
is my Bob Dozier folding hunter 10x better than a Buck 110? no, but I never regretted the purchase. I have a few knives over $300 and a bunch of em worth a lot less. I like em all.

[Dr.Mall Ninja]

While knives are not my thing I guess after thinking about it I can understand. I would perfer to have a Les Baer or Wilson Combat then an entry level 1911 that does just about the same thing.

[Carl Levitian]

As compelling as the OP's salesman story is (shocker punchline: salesman wants you to buy the priciest item), there's obviously diminishing returns to how much money you fork over for a knife. In my opinion, if you like the design, the steel is something decent (and properly tempered), and it's put together right, it doesn't really matter what it cost. It will still get the job done.

There's also something to be said for a knife being cheap enough you don't mind truly abusing it. I'd never pull out a $300 knife to pry at something sketchy, I'd go get a screwdriver like I'm supposed to.

I get why people buy expensive knives. Knives are basically man jewelery.

I can agree with that. Man jewelery or bragging rights along with a 10,000 dollar shotgun that won't kill the game any better than a tried and true 870 Remy. It's not a choice of either a Mercedes or Yugo, but the Honda's and Fords in between. With the poor frequency of repair records in Consumer's Mercedes is not a great example of value for the money.

I used to collect custom knives in my younger days. I had a nice little Randall collection. I ended up shipping them all down to Russell's to be sold off. JUst were not worth it. When a 10 dollar Frosts mora with a carbon blade outcut my Randall trout and ird knife, it was handwriting on the wall I couldn't ignore. Being young and dumb, the Randall on my hip was sheer knife snobbery, nothing more. In the twenty years I used custom knives, they never did anything that a lower cost knife couldn't do. In fact, looking back, I think I was overly careful with those knives because they were so expensive. When a car got broken into and the sterio stolen, I grieved more for the Randall 15 that was under the car seat than the car window and high end sound machine that got nicked. :eek:

After I sold off my collection, I never looked back. In fact, I had more fun with my knives after, if only for the reason that I could use them to the full extent, and push the envelope a little. If it got broken or lost, I could replace it at the next sports store or big box store I passed. For the last several years I've been having a gas using Opinels, Case sodbusters, mora's, and 12 inch Ontario machete's to hack, dig, pry, and even cut with. Stuff I never would do with a 300 hundred dollar knife. Haven't broke one yet, although for some reason the number 1 mora with the laminated blade seems to bend more easiely than the regular carbon steel one.:confused:

I'm glad I finally got old enough and comfortable with who I am, that I don't feel the need for bling. I'm happy with what works.

Carl.

[Sniper X]

While I have knives (one actually) that cost up to $700.00, and quite a few that cost up to 3~$400.00, I can say that the quality bandwidth between those, and a knife I can get for under $100.00 or slightly more, is dwindling.

There are so many companies using manufacturing processes that make the 300 dollar knife cost 100 or less that the difference in cost there is usually down to not much.

It is more like the difference between my 1968 Colt Python, and a 1980 S&W model 19, both great guns, both excellent shooters and both ALMOST as sweet (after a trigger job on the Smith) as each other, but that Python has something no Smith I have ever felt has. That is hard to quantify as is the difference between a 300 dollar knife and a 100 dollar one.

[kamagong]

I don't doubt that some people like to brag about the knives they own. They like to show off and will tell anyone who listens how much they spent. But it's wrong to assume that everyone who has an expensive knife falls into this group.

Let's take this knife for example. It's a Blackjack 125, one of my favorite knives.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/9180/blackjack125.jpg

As you can see it comes with a stag handle. That alone probably adds $40 to the cost of the knife. It also comes with a quality leather sheath. Another $30, but money I'm happy to spend because too often fixed blades come with crappy sheaths. A crappy sheath is near useless for the most part, but more importantly can be very dangerous. The biggest part of its cost comes from the fact that this knife is made here in America, by people who earn a good wage. I have no problem with that.

I've tried to get away from "the cheaper the better" mentality. I have a few cheap knives, and they serve me well. But I treasure my nicer knives. They give me pleasure in a way that the cheaper knives don't, and IMO they do work better though I admit the cheaper knives work just fine. And at least they are a durable good. A well-made knife, like a well-made gun, will last your lifetime and then some. It's well worth the cost considering that people spend more than that on their annual Starbuck's bill or on cell phones that need replacing every few years.

[JERRY]

i need to know what a $300.00 knife does that a $60.00 knife doesnt.

[Zeke/PA]

I own at LEAST 500 knives but for daily use, I'm sold on the Opinel brand for both inexpensive AND edge holding qualities.
I just touched up my daily carry #10 to arm shaving ability.
The carbon steel versions are great as in ease of sharpning and edge holding ease.

[ColtPythonElite]

How does one ever use 500 knives? If you rotated 'em every day it would take you nearly a year and a half to get back to using one the second time...LOL.

[19-3Ben]

@ ArfinGreebly:

Funny you mentioned the pens you did. What pen do I carry? A stainless/24K Parker, but it has a Fisher Space Pen refill inside of it. Having lived on the coast of the Bering Sea I came to appreciate a pen that would still write outside when it was 30 below zero. However, my Christmas cards are filled out with a Parker Duofold fountain pen, the same model used to sign the surrender treaty with Japan at the end of WWII abourd the USS Missouri.

Oh no....don't tell me I'm not the only knife/gun geek who is also a pen geek. As I sit here, I have two Parker 51's in the drawer next to me, a gold Sailor on the desk, and a retractable fountain Pilot in my shirt pocket...

And just to keep from derailing the thread, I would never disparage someone for spending $300+ on a knife but it wouldn't be me. I can't see buying cheapo Wally-World knives that break, but there's a decent middleground.
Just looking at camping knives, something along the lines of a Becker BK2 or an Ontario RAT-5 can be had in the $60-80 range, I'm perfectly happy with sticking to that price range.

I did spend the money to get my Benchmade Griptillian. The cost hurt at first, but 4 years later I have forgotten the price, but the knife is still in my pocket getting used every day. I love that knife.

[JVoutilainen]

i need to know what a $300.00 knife does that a $60.00 knife doesnt.

For some, absolutely nothing.

Am I seeing things or is the whole world "going soviet" these days? Just ten years ago I could not even imagine a situation that it would be necessary to explain the concept of "luxury" to an american.

[JERRY]

porche vs. chevrolet is more than looking at or "feeling" there is a tangible difference in amenities.

what about knives? they cut or they dont cut. no extra features gained for another $200.00.

i dont care if somebody buys a knife for $300.00, i just want to know how it outperforms other less expensive knives is all.

[kamagong]

i need to know what a $300.00 knife does that a $60.00 knife doesnt.

From a purely functional perspective, not that much. But let's compare the well-known Kabar to the Busse in the original post. The Busse has a better sheath than the Kabar. Its blade is made from better steel than the Kabar's. The blade also has a superior grind, so it cuts better than the Kabar. The handles are made from a durable and superior material. And the warranty is much better on the Busse. All these things cost money.

You are also paying a premium for Busse name of course. I don't know how much it is exactly, but it is there nonetheless.

If all you want is a tool to cut with, stick with the $60 knife. It'll likely do the job. But some people want something nicer and are willing to pay for it. They're not alone. You see it with knives, you see it with guns, you see it with cars.

[Sniper X]

Jerry, a 60K Chevrolet (Corvette) will out perform ANY but the most expensive Porsche....

[Sniper X]

Just like fine cars, watches, guns, and knives, there isn't a lot of difference in functionality. It is a more in depth and personal thing.

[Sniper X]

19-3ben, I can't write with anything but a quality pen. I have recently re-found Retro 1951's as my daily go to pen for office work. Magical for the cheap price. But most think $50.00 for a pen is like $3000.00 for a 1911.

[JERRY]

o.k., i wasnt taking into account a life time warranty or elephant ivory handles and what not....

[JohnBT]

"i need to know what a $300.00 knife does that a $60.00 knife doesnt."

My Sebenza holds an edge for ages longer than any other knife I've owned since I got my first Boy Scout knife 50 years ago. And the lock really works, the tighter you grip the knife the better it holds.

I've had it for more than 10 years and got it for closer to wholesale than the $300 retail. Twenty-two bucks a year for ten years (and counting) is not bad for a knife that I use for everything from snacks to cutting into paint cans and gutters, poking holes in fire barrels and whatnot. And it barely looks worn from daily use. Sebenza means work. See the Chris Reeve site for more. It a bear to sharpen. :)

If all you use a knife for is cutting the crossword out of the paper, peeling apples, cutting bait and cutting string, a $3 gun show knife from Pakistan will do.

I also agree with cheap sunglasses story.

[Sniper X]

John, I think the real answer is Nothing. In VERY extreme uses that none of us here will ever see, a 300 dollar knife might not break like a 60 dollar one but as said, that would be VERY extreme.

[451 Detonics]

Why would I spend almost $500 on a custom slipjoint? Because I damn well deserve it...

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/customs/arbutuscoats-1.jpg

How does one ever use 500 knives? If you rotated 'em every day it would take you nearly a year and a half to get back to using one the second time...LOL.

That is about what I have as well...they just get worked in and out of the EDC rotation...

[76shuvlinoff]

Because I damn well deserve it...

ding ding ding ding, we have a winner!

[Sheepdog1968]

The beauty of a capalist society is that there are many price points to choose from for many items. Some things I'm frugal on and others I'm not. Just make sure you are funding your 401K/IRA first.

[mr.scott]

To each their own, but for me, $40 is the tops for what I'll pay for a knife. I have a gerber gator I've had for 13 years now that is as sharp as the day I bought it. It's brother hasn't fared so well but the fact that it has helped cut shingles, fiberboard and tar paper for 2 years has more than paid for itself.

[12gaugeTim]

I nearly talked about how I would never pay more than $60 for a knife.. But then I realized how expensive the pens I buy are compared to a simple Bic ballpoint. But then again, the pen I am currently using is solid brass with a super durable gold titanium nitride coating and uses a pressurized ink cartridge that usually lasts an entire year and can write in a huge spectrum of environments, including underwater, in a vacuum, zero-gravity, etc. So it'll go a little further than your run-of-the-mill ballpoint, but I paid for it.
I can't say what the motivation behind these ivory and gold and silver pens is, but I'll never stop using Fisher Space Pens. I'm thinking about buying the new .338lm cased bullet pen; you should check it out :D it would do nicely beside my .375H&H cased one.
TLDR- you can pay for extra quality.

[Zundfolge]

Main reason I don't buy expensive knives (I carry this CRKT M16 (http://www.crkt.com/M1602Z?srch_pid=243&child=243&search_id=977135)) is because I abuse the heck out of my knives (don't sharpen regularly ... don't clean regularly ... don't oil regularly ... occasionally use as a pry-bar or screwdriver) and I just can't see spending top dollar on something I'm not going to take proper care of.

If I abused my guns the way I abuse my knives I doubt they'd function.

I still seriously doubt there is as much difference in performance between a cheap knife and an expensive one as there is between cheap pens, watches or cars and expensive ones.

But knives are about artistry ... if I could afford some beautiful custom Damascus steel folder I'd probably own one ... but carry my CRKT.

[alaskanativeson]

John, I think the real answer is Nothing. In VERY extreme uses that none of us here will ever see, a 300 dollar knife might not break like a 60 dollar one but as said, that would be VERY extreme.

I used to live on the coast of the Bering Sea, a little Yup'ik Eskimo village about 200 miles past the middle of nowhere. Not the most friendly of environments. I carried my Busses with the knowledge that when I NEEDED them to perform, they would. It's the same reason I chose the Mossberg 590 shotgun to carry as my bear medicine gun, when I read that the U.S. Marines chose the 590 because it was the only shotgun that never failed a single torture test I knew I had my gun.

By that same token, if there was a situation where I needed to know I could count on my knife to function and not fail, I felt much more comfortable knowing that the INFI steel in my Busses was more likely to hold up than just about anything short of a knife made by Odin of the same stuff he made Thor's hammer of. I've carried a Gerber Mark 1, and a Schrade Walden something-or-other that was my first knife (and I love it still) and a Ka-bar USMC design with a micarta handle ( a knife that was stolen from my truck and I've never seen another like it) and a Buck 119 General, and the list could go on and on. For that matter, I trust my RAT (now ESEE) models 4 and 5 pretty much as much as I do my Busses, but the nitrogen content of the INFI seems to retard rust formation better than the 1095 of the Rats. Something to consider in a saltwater and swamp environment.

Some people pay more for Volvos because of their safety record. Some buy only Michelin tires for the same reason. dependability is one reason I pay what I do for my Busses, Randalls, and Chris Reeves. Another reason is that Busse knives seem to have some of the best ergonomics of any knife I've used. Everyone has their own personal preference, but to my hand the Busse handles have all felt great to me. My 3 inch bladed Active Duty feels as good to me as my 9 inch Battle Mistress (I'm referring to my knife, not my wife.)

[Valkman]

I will say this about expensive knives, they are a real pain to lose. I lost my $400 Strider SnG a few years ago in a Costco parking lot and I thought I was gonna die. Luckily I dealt with a sheathmaker who was also doing work for Strider, and when Josh at Strider found out what I had lost he sent me a new one. That's customer service above and beyond! So far that one stays in a drawer and I've been carrying less expensive stuff like SAKs until I get my courage back up to carry the good stuff.

[Gordon]

Har har, I'll stick to my cheap plastic handled chrome plated knives with the plastic sheaths ! Ha ha you guys are a trip !
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/P1010629.jpg

[leadcounsel]

I'm in the camp that knife metal and design stops improving around $50-80. Beyond that you're paying for .... ? Craftsmanship. Design. Art.

But my $60 XYZ knife (Gerber, Spyderco, etc.) is going to perform just as well and last just as long as your $300 knife. Sorry to offend.

12C27 steel is 12C27 steel, for example.

Spending more than say $80 is for extras like sheath, hand crafting, etc.

[alaskanativeson]

12C27 steel is 12C27 steel, for example.

Yes and no.

Both Randall Made Knives and Böker use 440 stainless in their knives. Same steel, but Randall forges theirs. That forging adds a LOT to the quality of the blade. Plus, forging stainless, from what I'm told, is very difficult to do. Back in the 80s when I started looking at spending some real money on a quality knife I could only find 2 knife makers who forged stainless: Randall and Sean McWilliams. A Randall bought for $200 in 1985 would sell today for $500 or more. I haven't seen any McWilliams for sale in a coon's age, but the last one I saw sold for over $800.

Trial and error has taught me that stainless is not what I want in a knife, though some of the premium steels are making that a lot better. I have some S30V knives I like, but in general I want a carbon steel with a lower chromium content to give the knife better edge holding with less brittleness. Going into an environment like Alaska's Bering Coast I still wanted something that would resist rust to a certain degree. I found INFI steel by Busse, a proprietary blend that give other-worldly edge-holding, titanium-like strength, but still a degree of rust resistance above something like 1095 or D2.

Those last few shades of higher quality may seem small, but I think that they may, at times, be worth it.

[JVoutilainen]

Ok. I'm feeling grumpy enough to take the bait. Maybe it is because I know I will be spending the evening in my basement scraping goo off of a bull hide (want quality - make it yourself).

leadcounsel sez:
I'm in the camp that knife metal and design stops improving around $50-80.

That is, or course, absolutely - and demonstrably - rubbish. You might be "in the camp", but that does not change Reality. Have you ever considered the possibility that you have yet to experience the difference between masterful and mediocre? Have you considered the possibility that you lack necessary Knowledge and sophistication to make a judgement? Believe what you want, but your belief does not create reality. Similarly you can disbelieve the Law of gravity, but you are going to be bound by the effect, none the less.

Solipsism is a word that pops into my head, for some reason.

mr.scott sez:
I have a gerber gator I've had for 13 years now that is as sharp as the day I bought it.

A reminder: keeping a knife in your pocket does not mean you are actually "using" it. If your knife has retained its factory edge I can say with absolute confidence that you have, in fact, NOT being using it for the last 13 years. Claiming anything else is absolutely ridiculous.

Furthermore, how long a knife holds factory sharpening is a side issue, because if you really really use a knife you will end up sharpening the blade each and every day, sometimes many times in an hour. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

And about factory edges in general. I have never in my life seen a straight edged cutting tool that was satisfactory "out of the box", when it comes to sharpness. Not even on high end chisels made for woodworking professionals, such as myself. And as I already said, it does not matter, because I will end up sharpening, and re-sharpening, and honing, and sharpening the things over and over and over and over and over again during the day.

Zundfolge sez:
Main reason I don't buy expensive knives (I carry this CRKT M16) is because I abuse the heck out of my knives (don't sharpen regularly ... don't clean regularly ... don't oil regularly ... occasionally use as a pry-bar or screwdriver) and I just can't see spending top dollar on something I'm not going to take proper care of.

Needless to say it is simply dumb to use a knife as a pry-bar or a screwdriver. Do you use a power drill as a hammer also (seen it done, actually. And yes - it was government workforce), or you cellphone?

And yes, it would be unreasonable to expect that a high end knife would "perform" much better compared to mass produced crud when subjected to abuse it was most definitely NOT designed for. If you need a hammer, use a hammer. If you need a pry-bar, use a pry-bar. IIf you need a screw driver... you get the point.

Right, I feel much better now.

[G.WHEELERKNIVES]

Knives, Guns, Cars or Whiskey no matter the price you are mostly going to get what you pay for. If you care what is stamped on the blade more than it's edge retention, well you got it and I hope you have fun sharpening it. In the case of a $300 or higher knife, you should be getting a knife that will hold an edge past normal expectations and be pleasing to the eye and hand. Think back when we all started using knives to some of the things we used them for, the cheap knives were great teachers as to what a knife would and would not do or was ever designed to do.

Now I have reached a place and time in life (50) where my wants and needs are not survival driven, so when I want an expensive knife to please the little boy in me. I justify it with a shrug and plonk my money down and walk away with my new knife, looking forward to using it. To doing what it was intended to do. Cut this and that with ease and grace, sometimes maybe only a very few times a year.

All knives where not created equal. A properly designed and HEAT TREATED knife blade will outperform and outlast a wallyworld knife blade........ those of you who say you would never give $300 for a knife all well and good, you have your point. But have not the experience base to make comments on an over $300 knife you have never owned or used. A knife was made to cut various materials and if a knife is to be used to cut shingles it should have been designed to do this job. As in a replaceable bladed utility knife not your average pocket/sheath knife designed to do basic cutting chores and game field dressing operations. Use the tool for what it was designed to do and enjoy the experience for what it offers you.

[dayhiker]

Sniper X

John, I think the real answer is Nothing. In VERY extreme uses that none of us here will ever see, a 300 dollar knife might not break like a 60 dollar one but as said, that would be VERY extreme.


Nonsense. My "extreme" use knife didn't cost $300. It cost $118 shipped ,add about $75 or so for the custom sheath and I carry a little over $200 in today's prices in steel and leather.


I cut, baton (cross grain, and with grain), pry, dig, chop, and anything else I need to do with it.

Stating that none of us here use our tools hard is an outlandish assumption on your part.

If you really think a $60 Gerber Ultimate knife (for example)is going to take the same "extreme" use my $120 Fallkniven F1 does, your a sadly mistaken.

[brucegodlesky]

Good response Gary!!

[JVoutilainen]

It is not a straight forward issue, and you can not boil it down with a simple edge retention test. The reason for this is clear; a customer might prefer a blade with a "softer edge", let's say about HRC 56-57, because it makes the knife quicker to re-sharpen. I have ordered one exactly like that, although my toughest knife (that I made myself) has a blade hardness in the range of HRC 61-62. I have experimented with even harder materials (63+), but I don't like them because re-sharpening is, in my opinion, a real pain after that point. Then again, maybe later in life I will master the necessary skills to easily maintain, and thus, enjoy, such outlandishly hard blades... If you are comparing knife performance you must understand that we are talking about "potential" crafted into an item - in real life true "performance" depends greatly on the skills of the user.

Furthermore, it must be kept in mind that good proportion of the custom knife scene does not actually revolve around performance, at all. You can easily purchase a 300 dollar knife that is outperformed by #10 opinel. If you want performance, you need to specifically ask for performance - and more to the point, know what KIND of performance it is you require.

[Sniper X]

DAYHIKER WROTE:
John, I think the real answer is Nothing. In VERY extreme uses that none of us here will ever see, a 300 dollar knife might not break like a 60 dollar one but as said, that would be VERY extreme.

Nonsense. My "extreme" use knife didn't cost $300. It cost $118 shipped ,add about $75 or so for the custom sheath and I carry a little over $200 in today's prices in steel and leather.


I cut, baton (cross grain, and with grain), pry, dig, chop, and anything else I need to do with it.

Stating that none of us here use our tools hard is an outlandish assumption on your part.

If you really think a $60 Gerber Ultimate knife (for example)is going to take the same "extreme" use my $120 Fallkniven F1 does, your a sadly mistaken.


Funny how you said exactly what I said but prefaced it with a response to what I said with Nonsense......Granted I said NONE of us will ever see, and I should have said Many of us will never see. But that is beside the point....no pun intended.

[kamagong]

12C27 steel is 12C27 steel, for example.

Not true. There is much more to a blade than the steel used. The maker also has to grind the blade. Sometimes the blade grind makes for a nice and efficient cutter, sometimes it is little more than glorified pry bar. Then there is the heat treatment, which brings out the full potential of the steel. If you do it right you will end up with a strong, sharp knife. Get it wrong and the result is a blade that is too hard and weak and brittle, or too soft won't hold an edge. Then there is the level of polish that is put on the knife. The higher the level of polish, the less friction the blade encounters as it cuts. The majority of users probably don't care or know about this. As a result, manufacturers often save money by bead blasting or coating blades. Taking the time to do all of this right adds to the cost of a knife.

Finally 12c27 is not the be all, end all of steels. It's a good choice for folders, but there are better, but more expensive alternatives available.

[Madcap_Magician]

All the non-knife people need to ask themselves a question...

... what does a Colt, Sig, H&K, S&W, Ruger, Dan Wesson, Les Baer, or Wilson Combat do that a Hi-Point doesn't do?

[dayhiker]

Funny how you said exactly what I said but prefaced it with a response to what I said with Nonsense......Granted I said NONE of us will ever see, and I should have said Many of us will never see. But that is beside the point....no pun intended.

Not really. I said my $120 knife will outperform a $60 knife. Twice as good? IMHO opinion yes.

The same is true with some higher price knives. The Busse Active Duty in the OP's first post will outperform my F1.

INFI is superior to my Laminated VG-10 which is superior to Chinese mystery steel used so much by Gerber these days.

As well Busse's limited production practices are a higher standard than my Japanese manufactured F1 which is better than Gerber's Chinese manufacturing.

See my point?

A $300 dollar knife WILL do things a $60 knife doesn't. And keep doing it for much longer.

[Sav .250]

"If" you are a collector, then maybe $300 is not bad for something of quality.
If your not, then $15 gets you a knife of questonable quality and your out of your discretionary funds. Broke again.....:)

[Gunfighter]

All about quality. My Benchmade griptillian with partially serrated blade is a workhorse.The lock withstands ALL pressure and never fails.Ive cut tin, wood, skin deer, used it as a screwdriver many times, as well as a mini pry bar.The blade doesnt have as much carbon as a cheap knife.I own quite a few bucks and after years of use and sharpening the blade wears down to nothing.The better knives hold an edge so much better and longer.I carry (when not at work) my benchmade osbourne with S30V steel , which will cut the average buck or case blade into by placing it on top or bottom of my benchmade and using some hammer force.Im the same way with a knife that i am with a gun, im not gonna own it if i can't completely trust my life with it.

[Valkman]

Yep the Griptilian is a great knife.

[Zeke/PA]

I am of course a collector of sorts and my knife"collection" amounts to no longer made Schrades/ Old Timers and Case stuff, bought from failing Mom& Pop stores.
Of course, I have MANY duplicates.
E.G. for YEARS I have furnished Case Sodbusters for Christmas Gifts.
YEP!
There is AT LEAST 500 knives in the rack behind me as we speak.
MOST are in the origional factory packaging.
I guess it's one of the perks of being Old,Dumb and Retired.
I just LOVE knives!!

[northark147]

I use el cheapo Smith and Wesson Knives myself, but then again I'm not a big knifer, just as my best friend isn't as big a gunner. We go hunting together normally so I can shoot the deer and he can clean it.. lol My extent of knife use is normally opening the adult proof packaging on some new gun toy, but I can certainly tell you that A benchmade will out perform my S&W. I cannot tell you if a 300+ knife is better than either, but I'm sure those that have them can.

[451 Detonics]

To me it is similar to art, some folks are content with a print hanging on the wall basically a poster, others prefer a Canvas Transfer, a very high grade copy on canvas, I just prefer owning an original, a one of a kind.

And if you want an original you have to be ready to pay for it.

[TimboKhan]

Solipsism is a word that pops into my head

LOL! While I agree with your argument entirely, that is a word that never, ever just pops into my head!

Here is my additional two cents...

I frequently tout the Spyderco Endura as my favorite knife, so let us use that as an example. I paid right around $65 bucks for it several years ago, and I use it pretty hard. Not as hard as some people do, as I work in an office and am not a longshoreman or something, but harder than most people do. It has never let me down, and if I were to return to the field, it would be the knife I would take. In fact, I discovered Spyderco when I was in the Marines, and it replaced entirely the need to buy knives that I could "lose and abuse without worrying about it". The fact that I got regularly mocked for carrying a pink knife (easier to find, you see) had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that my knife outperformed every single other knife that any of my platoon, company, and battalion mates carried. That knife opened everything from MRE's to ammo boxes, and never let me down.

Would I purchase, use and abuse a Sebenza or something similarly priced? Yup. Knives are tools, and I figured out a long time ago that for me, money spent on good tools stretched a lot further than money spent on cheap tools. It's a lesson I learned growing up on a farm with a farmer step-dad that understood and practiced maintenance on his equipment to the extent that our tractors literally never broke down in the field. My dad, a carpenter for over 40 years, is as frugal as they come and while he always bought (and still buys) used tools, he never buys a cheap tool. Neither my Dad nor my step-dad are rich men, but they understood that paying for demonstratable quality is better than buying junk that you have to replace. I will admit that at one point I argued the basic tenet that super-expensive knives were dumb, but a little research and education taught me that while I will likely never own a Sebenza, they are worth the price. I also realized that for my particular needs, I would be overpaying just from a pure utility aspect.

Now, am I advocating everyone who uses a pocketknife to go out and spend $400 bucks? No. Clearly I am not, though I personally wouldn't think twice about it if my finances were such that I could afford that luxury. Utility wise, I don't need one, but if I had the dough pride in ownership would trump utility. Nor am I saying that expensive is good just because it is expensive. What I am saying is that buying junk is not wise.

I understand fully that most people don't need a $150+ knife. I am not wealthy, and I understand making a dollar stretch. Spend $20.00 on some crappy knife if you wish, but I know that my Endura has cost me a little less than a buck a month at this point, and it shows no signs of breaking or failing me anytime soon, and with every passing month, it's value goes up, not down. You can find quality at reasonable prices, dudes. You can also spend some coin and buy a Sebenza and be secure in the knowledge that you have possibly the finest production knife in all the land. Buy wisely, but don't buy junk.

[MachIVshooter]

I have some fairy expensive knives, like the Cold Steel Magnum Tanto with their San Mai III blade; Cost me nearly $400. I have nice Case XX's, etc.

The knives that I use every day, though? US-made Kershaws in the $50-$70 range. I've found that there's nothing a knife costing 3 or 4 times as much will do better from a functional standpoint, and the Kershaws are affordable enough that I don't mind marring them (and occasionally losing them).

I can certainly appreciate high-end blades. But for the same reason that I carry a $350 CA bulldog instead of my $1,000 Witness Limited, I carry a $60 Kershaw instead of a $200+ semi-custom. They're gonna get used, and they're gonna show it.

[JVoutilainen]

Well said, TimboKhan.

The good thing about carpenters tools is that very few carpenters actually know how to use the "old stuff" - mainly because many of them would not know how to sharpen anything to save their life. Modern carpentry is basically machining. Why is that a good thing? Because then people with skills can buy absolutely brilliant carpenters tools, now deemed obsolete, for peanuts from the ebay...

About solipsism. I'm surprised that doesn't pop into your head, because it seems to be the leading ideology of the day. Apparently people think they can "choose" or "create" reality instead of experiencing it. Also, they think they can party their way through troubled times. Yes, it is funny that the leading ideology, at least in the western world, is a mental disorder.

[Snowbandit]

For working knives I only buy American made. Kershaw makes great knives, in the US, and they don't cost no $300.00 either. Plus their warranty is pretty much unbeatable. They're good enough for my needs.

[Pete D.]

If a knife (or a car, or a rifle, or a pistol, or a watch, or a pen, etc.) is only to be measured by functionality, by utility, then the less expensive versions will do.
How does one explain the pleasure of owning something like a custom knife, or a fine watch?
Twenty-five years ago, I had this made for me by David Boye, it has been on my hip ever since and given me a great deal of pleasure. Given the expense back then, I suppose that it more than qualifies for this discussion.
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/IMG_1818.jpg
While this is on my hip and gets used every day, there is also a Schrade Stockman in my pocket. It will cut just as well but I reach for the Boye knife first.
It's not "just a knife".
Pete

[Brian Williams]

Quality, The reason I took all of my Klein tools and some Craftsman wrenches and a good hammer with me to Cambodia. It is the reason I wear Reef flipflops, I never thought I would pay $50 for a pair of flipflops. The reason why I wear Gortex raincoats. The reason why I have a few good knives including a Douk douk, an Opinel, and a Wheeler along with others. The reason why I write with sets Cross pen/pencil in Sterling silver, 10k Gold filled and Black/gold. I have found that my Dell Latitude is holding up better than most laptops in this heat and dust because I bought quality.

[EvilGenius]

I'd never pull out a $300 knife to pry at something sketchy, I'd go get a screwdriver like I'm supposed to.

Whoa whoa whoa.

You mean you use your $50 snap-on flathead to pry on something?

That's a job for a $3.50 give away from harbor freight. But it'll never be able to handle the same jobs as the snap-on with its trade mark handle shape, blasted tip for less slippage and quality time spent manufacturing with signature box from the manufacturer and owners manual with serial number and proof of purchase next to the signed letter from the company owner.

[EvilGenius]

Same knife here.

Abused daily for 5 years now and just as solid as the day I got it.

I respect the expensive stuff for what it is, but I can't see why you'd buy something you never really plan to use. What a waste.

[Sniper X]

While not a NICE knife, it works great and I carry it daily...well until of course I change again to something else in my safe since I love to carry a different gun and knife every other week or so!

http://sniperx.smugmug.com/Sniperx/Sniper-X/i-3hK8KLP/0/M/DSCF0088-M.jpg

[wheelgunslinger]

I go back and forth on this topic. I like to be practical and always consider how much I can help other people with the resources I have, including spending less on something so I can redirect that money to more rewarding uses.

But, I do like quality items and believe that quality is worth paying for, if you're buying a serious piece of equipment. Knives are not much different.
I'm one of those people who use sharp tools and has to know how to resharpen them. So, the lessons of quality cutting tools aren't lost on me.

[12gaugeTim]

Solipsism is a word that pops into my head, for some reason.


Pretentious is a word that pops into my head, for some reason.

[alaskanativeson]

I respect the expensive stuff for what it is, but I can't see why you'd buy something you never really plan to use. What a waste.
5 years ago I spend a little over $300 on a Randall model 25, the one posted here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=625289). I knew the money would be well spent if I bought the knife to use or not to use. Today, the knife is unused, and I could put it on eBay for a 5 day auction and double my money on it. A Randall Knife is a solid investment. That said, I don't buy knives as a part of a portfolio, I do it because I love knives. It's nice to know, however, that the level of quality in something like a Randall is such that its value will go up over time. That says something about the Randall family's creations.

[EvilGenius]

5 years ago I spend a little over $300 on a Randall model 25, the one posted here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=625289). I knew the money would be well spent if I bought the knife to use or not to use. Today, the knife is unused, and I could put it on eBay for a 5 day auction and double my money on it. A Randall Knife is a solid investment. That said, I don't buy knives as a part of a portfolio, I do it because I love knives. It's nice to know, however, that the level of quality in something like a Randall is such that its value will go up over time. That says something about the Randall family's creations.
And it's certainly a matter of opinion.

It would just irk me to death to buy a tool (especially an expensive one) and never use it, even if it did go up in value.

Whih doesn't really mean much unless you actually intend to sell it.

[Sniper X]

I agree. I bought a top o9f the line SOG (a one off Randall style Bowie) for a song one day on close out. I paid like $120.00 for it in about 1990. It was a little too big to carry on hunts and camping so it just sat in my safe. I put it up for sale and got $650.00 for it. It turned out SOG only made like 5 of them and it was something special.

[JVoutilainen]

12gaugeTim sez:
Pretentious is a word that pops into my head, for some reason.

Oh really? Why is that? Because I think that;

a) it is foolish to claim that you can't get your moneys forth if you pay more than 60-80 dollars for a knife

B) it is ludicrous to claim that a knife has held a perfect factory edge for 13 years of use

C) it is foolish to use a knife for something it was not designed for

Tell me again, which one of these things is "pretentious" on my part.

One more thing about solipsism. A person who suffers from the aforementioned disorder often take offense if someone actually claims to have true knowledge of... anything, because in the mind of a solipsist no such thing as "truth" exists.

[leadcounsel]

Every item manufactured has a price point of deminishing returns. For handguns it's probably $500-800. For cars it's probably $30,000. For watches it's probably $100. For suits it's probably $500. For dress shoes it's probably $100. For neck ties it's $20. Anything beyond that you're paying less for function and more for brand name, prestige, status, etc. There's value in paying extra for certain mechanical things, like cars, guns, etc. with lots of moving parts, design features, warranty, quality, etc. Other things, not so much.

I would put a $100 timex against a $10,000 Rolex any day of the week for their function - TIME KEEPING. I would put a $70 XYZ knife (Gerber, Spyderco, etc.) up against any $300 knife for identical uses and they'll last the same amount of time. AND, even if the $70 fails to last as long, the $300 knife IS NOT going to last 4 times as long... So the economical argument is that you could buy 4 $70 knives for the price of 1 $300 knife...

At the end of the day, you're largely paying for art, hand made, craftsmanship, status, etc.

It's not a judgement, but that's not for ME at this point. But there are some things I pay extra for for quality. For knives, the sweet spot is about $70.

[12gaugeTim]

I didn't claim you were wrong in anything you said, I just thought the mode in which you delivered it was arrogant and self righteous. You seem to think a lot of yourself.
And I am observing that you subtely attempted to call me a solipsist, which I suppose is correct, because it is perfectly true that I am unable to prove the existence of anything but my own consciousness, I think therefore I am.

[IBEWBULL]

While I have not paid over $60.00 for a knife. I will say some of the ones I purchased are worth way more than this today.
My 1970's Gerber MK II http://thegerberknives.com/mark.html
Is one example. I paid $20.00 for it in 1977 without a sheath.
We work hard for our money and getting a quality product which will apreciate and be useful at the same time is a win - win.
I hope my investment in American made products will pay dividens in the future and now by stimulating AMERICAN JOBS.

[dayhiker]

I would put a $70 XYZ knife (Gerber, Spyderco, etc.) up against any $300 knife for identical uses and they'll last the same amount of time. AND, even if the $70 fails to last as long, the $300 knife IS NOT going to last 4 times as long... So the economical argument is that you could buy 4 $70 knives for the price of 1 $300 knife...


For a folding ,everyday, "normal person's" use I would tend to agree. Heck my daily carry folder is a $20 SAK.

But, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate and understand the value and PERFORMANCE of a Sebenza or a Davidson.Their fit, finish,materials,and yes long term performance potential, blow my little SAK away. (I will own a small Sebenza before I pass on)

Where I draw the line at "cost vs value" are my personal hobbies. All of which include the great outdoors.

As mentioned before in this thread my baby is a Fallkniven F1. This does not mean I have not owned knives costing more, in fact I have. The F1 just fits my hands, and uses better.

My F1 has suffered my abuses for at least three years now. That equals about $40 per year (and it is still ticking mind you). There is no way a $60 mystery Chinese steel knife would last in my hands for a solid year. Sorry, I do tend to take shortcuts in the woods. An axe, saw, hammer, pry-bar,screwdriver set, ..etc tend to add quite a bit of weight to the pack. So I make do with what I have on hand or tools can create in the woods.

My $118 investment three years ago has paid me back already.

[ArfinGreebly]

Tim, JV works with blades daily.

He has shared some of his expertise with us.

Perhaps he can be forgiven for a certain reluctance to accept statements that run contrary to his actual experience in the field.


And JV? A gentle hand is seldom a waste of effort.


'Tis the High Road after all.

[JVoutilainen]

12gaugeTim,

Thank you for so eloquently confirming my observation. And I was by no means trying to be subtle.

Tell me, Tim, which one is the self righteous and arrogant one; the one who claims that the story ends at 50-80 bucks (leadcounsel), or the one who claims to know that the rabbit hole is just a bit deeper - and more complex - than that?

Furthermore, you believe in the possibility that the entire universe might be the creation of your YOUR own mind... but I am the arrogant one?

Rest assured, you are not the All.

ArfinGreebly,

I really don't see why I should be gentle when people trapped in a world of illusion and with absolutely no experience claim to be final arbiters of things and dismiss professionals (and no, I am not necessarily talking about myself) with true Knowledge, gained through experience, as fools. Tell me, how many custom blade makers would react "gently" faced with such blatant arrogance? Exactly. That is because they Know and they have pride and a spark in their soul. By the way, that is one reason I like the "custom" scene.

Agreed, sometimes gentleness is what is needed, but not this time. And let's remember, the High Road is not for the timid :D

[JohnBT]

"John, I think the real answer is Nothing."

I think you're wrong. Before I bought the Sebenza I used a $50 Beretta folder for years, and still have it, and it isn't half the knife the Sebenza is in day to day use.

Here's my question for you. Do you have experience with a wide range of knives or is your answer simply a matter of "I think"?

[Gordon]

"I really don't see why I should be gentle when people trapped in a world of illusion and with absolutely no experience claim to be final arbiters of things and dismiss professionals (and no, I am not necessarily talking about myself) with true Knowledge, gained through experience, as fools. Tell me, how many custom blade makers would react "gently" faced with such blatant arrogance? Exactly. That is because they Know and they have pride and a spark in their soul. "
:banghead:

yessir! or as the Book puts it; " Don't throw your pearls before swine, lest they turn and chomp on U"
:neener:

[Sniper X]

I will admit a 500 dollar knife is (nicer) than one that cost under 100. I will also admit it is nicer to won, and carries a certain almost un-explainable specialness that cheaper knives do not. I will also venture that until one owns such a knife, he will not understand or MAY not understand. However, as said, MOST of us for daily use will never see a working difference in a sub hundred dollar knife, and a 500 dollar handmade knife other then said prestige. I can say that 80% of the non operators I know who carry a knife pull it out once a week unlike me who has mine out ten times a day. I can tell the difference, and sometimes even carry a slipjoint worth 300 or more. But most never will need a high dollar knife nor will they ever buy one.

[EvilGenius]

I can say that 80% of the non operators I know who carry a knife pull it out once a week unlike me who has mine out ten times a day.

I got ya beat by a factor of 10.

If my knife had a transfer bar it'd be broken already.

[kamagong]

No one is saying that inexpensive knives are no good. I own plenty of knives below the $60 price point that serve me well. But to pretend that nothing better exists is foolishness.

I don't remember who it was that first mentioned the $60 cutoff, but that is an arbitrary number. Do you expect it to apply to all knives? Do you expect knives made by skilled workers in developed countries to cost the same as ones made by slave labor? What about knives made of premium steel compared to ones with unknown pot metal blades? Do you think a hand forged knife made one at a time should cost the same as one that is cranked out in the thousands by machine?

Not to mention that there is a myriad of designs when it comes to knives.

These two are knives.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3035/users2.jpg

So is this.
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/1410/him43.jpg

To expect them to all cost the same is unrealistic.

leadcounsel mentioned the principle of diminishing returns. That's really what is at issue here. For some a knife is nothing more than a tool, akin to a wrench, and all they want is something that cuts. The Gerber does the job just fine. But some people want better and they are willing to pay for it. They want a blade that cuts more efficiently and holds its edge longer. They may want a knife with a stronger lock. Sometimes they may even want one that's prettier. All valid reasons. In the end each buyer has to decide what's worth spending his money on. Good thing that knives, like guns, have something for everyone, of every budget.

[ArfinGreebly]

The value of manufactured items can, to a degree, be compared with the amounts paid to baseball players whose batting averages are only a few hundredths different.

Mashin' Maxwell might have a batting average of .315, and his teammate, Beltin' Bobby might have an average of .340, and in all other respects they are equal: same 50 yard and 100 yard sprint times, same jumping height, same ability to catch grounders and flies, and so on. Yet Bobby is paid substantially more for what is really only a minor fractional improvement in hitting.

Bobby may just have a natural talent, or he may spend twice as much time in the batting cage as Maxwell.


In manufacturing you set up your production line and processes to achieve the best consistent quality to meet or beat a certain cost point. Beyond that level of quality, more time is required, more personal attention is needed, and it may be that some of the materials involved don't submit well to automation. You may only achieve a 10% improvement, but your production cost may have increased 50% for that piece.

Me, I'm mostly happy with what can be achieved in a production setting. I tend to take a little more time at the point of purchase to study three or four or five examples of a given knife before I select the one that's going home with me. I check things like smoothness of action, degree of lock engagement, blade centering, blade play, seams between the scales and bolsters, scales and rivets (or screws), symmetry of grind, evenness of edge, and stuff like that.

I know that in a mass produced environment, the line staff don't have the time to stop and spend minutes with each piece, so I spend that time myself at the knife counter, making sure I get the best (in my eyes) combination of factors from the available selection. If I'm ordering a custom piece, I don't expect to have to perform QA for the maker. I've paid him to do that. If I order a customized version of a production piece, I expect that the extra money I'm spending will be reflected in the finished product. I shouldn't find ledges, gaps, off-centering, play, stickiness, or blemishes. I'm paying for the craftsman with his hands on the work to take care of all that.


The customized piece may only be "a few percentage points" better than a piece right off the line, but that last few points can mean more "extra" time on a single knife than the whole process takes for several of the mass produced versions of the same item.


Choose the level of quality that suits you and then, knowing what the extra effort will be, spend your money accordingly.

[wheelgunslinger]

If my knife had a transfer bar it'd be broken already.
Funny!

[sixgunner455]

Well, since everybody else is weighing in ...

I grew up in a knife shop. I've sold a few knives for my Dad, and a few of my own. I put together a knife or two a year still, just for my own entertainment and use.

I hardly ever bother to sell 'em, though, because the honest truth is that most people are cheapskates who don't want to pay what the materials are worth, let alone for the time and expertise a craftsman puts into something. I've given a couple to friends that were deploying, but I'm not giving them away to someone who just doesn't want to pay for them.

You see it in lots of things. Just surf the hobby boards for a day or two, and you'll see questions like this all the time: What's the cheapest xyz item I can use for abc task?

It's partly budget, and we all understand that, but it is also ludicrous to think that the cheapest thing out there that will do the job compares favorably with the product of purpose-built, top-end craftsmanship.

"Adequate" does not equate to "awesome".

I recently had an interesting experience that illustrates. I was at the shooting range with a friend. I had my adequate Bushnell spotting scope. Its job is to tell me where the bullet holes are on the target, and to help find deer. I picked up my friend's Leupold Gold Ring binoculars, which have a much lower magnification ratio than the spotting scope. Those binoculars are unreal. The optical clarity is just amazing to a guy who's never used anything of that quality.

Is it quantifiable? Can I measure the difference between them? I don't know, but I do know that when my friend offered me the use of those binoculars for my upcoming Coues hunt, I grabbed them and stuck them in my truck before he could change his mind. I may not even pack my spotting scope. It does pull things in closer than the binos, so maybe they will serve different purposes.

Riflescopes. People are always trying to cheap out on their optics. I understand. We all do. Quality is expensive, and budgets are usually hard to find flex room in. But the difference between a $50 scope and a $150 scope is huge. I have a Bushnell that came in a package with a rifle, and a Nikon Prostaff. The Bushnell is adequate - it does what it is designed to do, but ... the Nikon is demonstrably more clear, less tiring to sit behind, and adjusts more precisely. If you have the Bushnell zeroed, it will enable you to hit your target (unless you switch between magnification levels - shifting impact points), but you will have an easier time using the Nikon. Whether the difference between a $150 scope and a $1000 scope is as huge remains to be seen. I have used a Zeiss one time, and it was honestly a very impressive scope, but I did not have a less expensive scope with me to compare it to.

Purchasers of knives can fall into the same trap of price trumping quality, but there are caveats: you can get an adequate, sharp piece of steel that will cut for not much money. A typical SAK doesn't cost a lot, and will have highly polished blades that center in the channel, don't rub each other, and snap open and closed with authority. There is no reason to buy cheap junk when such things exist in the world - quality, not price, is the measure. Where you go from there depends on your usage level and your budget.

A $300 knife may be a tremendous cutter, an enduring and comforting companion, or an investment.

A bladesmith tests his blades, frequently to destruction. When he says "My knives can do ..." whatever he says, he's saying because he's done it. I have taken one of my father's blades on deployment, on training exercises, hunting, and every place imaginable. It has pried, chopped, cut, sliced, and, not to be too ugly about it, intimidated dangerous locals. *cue Crocodile Dundee: now that's a knife!

That is a $300 knife. And, considering where it's been and what it's done, it would have been cheap, at twice the price.

[wheelgunslinger]

Good points, 455.
Being great at Xbox, fantasy football, or zinging people on message boards doesn't leave a lot of time for developing real skills that help you relate to craftspeople.
Consumers just look for the best blister pack deal.

If you have to convince a guy your labor and skillset have value, you're selling to the wrong guy.

[EvilGenius]

I agree, but a lot of the major manufacturers that sell at such high prices still use mass manufacturing processes like the cheaper ones. The only difference is the people putting the pieces together spend maybe an extra 5-10min per knife. Does it make a better knife? Sure. Does it justify the cost increases when considering the volume? Not in my opinion (unless we're talking long blades like that kukri above). Obviously there'll be almost no time spent at all on a $30 plastic package folder. The $70-$130 range like mentioned before seems to be the sweet spot where enought time is spent to create a solid long lasting knife without dumping a ton of money on flash, packaging and brand names.

However, if we're talking bladesmiths that spend hours or days choosing, making and assembling/fitting each piece of a custom knife. I agree completely with the prices, bu depending on the knife, I doubt it'd be my daily beater.

[Sniper X]

Evil, didja find a folder yet?

[EvilGenius]

Nah, someone found mine and returned it to me.

I'm just window shopping at this point:

[Gordon]

You can have a soul knife ! And even Shaft would dig it ! No I meant Soul Knife in the Japanese Tradition! Or the Native American Tradition or the Jim Friggin Bowie Tradition!

[EvilGenius]

... or the Jim Friggin Bowie Tradition!

I'm all over that. 'Cept they won't lettuce have'm at work.

[wheelgunslinger]

I agree completely with the prices, bu depending on the knife, I doubt it'd be my daily beater.

Interesting that we will carry a gun that costs more, often much more, than a custom knife, and we chalk up holster wear and whatnot to daily usage. We also don't worry too much about losing it or breaking it.
But, when it comes to knives we have a hard time breaking the $300 mark for something so much more utilitarian. I know I don't use my gun to peel apples or field dress animals, whittle, or make shelter.
I'm just saying.

[EvilGenius]

Interesting that we will carry a gun that costs more, often much more, than a custom knife, and we chalk up holster wear and whatnot to daily usage. We also don't worry too much about losing it or breaking it.
But, when it comes to knives we have a hard time breaking the $300 mark for something so much more utilitarian. I know I don't use my gun to peel apples or field dress animals, whittle, or make shelter.
I'm just saying.

I'm confused, you're not worried about breaking or losing your gun?

Although my guns might be as much or more expensive they dont represent the high dollar custom hand made from scratch knives that I was talking about. Eventually I plan on buying a Schofield. Now that would fit in that category and would receive much better treatment than my current guns (not to imply I abuse them or anything).

I agree it's much more utilitarian, but the device itself is much more simple than a pistol or revolver. Those things do require tighter tolerances than most knives to function properly. Which I feel justifies the higher price eventhough its usage could never hold a candle to my EDC knife. Usually, you can find a $100 knife that has a locking system/hinge that functions just as well as one 3-4 times that price.

[kozak6]

Interesting that we will carry a gun that costs more, often much more, than a custom knife, and we chalk up holster wear and whatnot to daily usage. We also don't worry too much about losing it or breaking it.
But, when it comes to knives we have a hard time breaking the $300 mark for something so much more utilitarian. I know I don't use my gun to peel apples or field dress animals, whittle, or make shelter.
I'm just saying.

The problem is that you have mistaken absolute cost for relative cost.

$300 is affordable for a gun. If you could get a Glock for $20, it would seem a little silly to spend $300 on a pistol.

The thing is, a $300 knife is an optional luxury item. Yeah, more money gets you better quality, but diminishing returns stack up FAST. Most people are perfectly fine not even carrying a knife at all. A lot of people are happy with sub $10 box cutters for general purpose knives. A humble $12 Opinel performs most EDC tasks admirably. So does a $20 SAK. $20 also begins to get you into the area of decent quality import knives.

Is a $300 knife better than an Opinel? Sure. Is it 33X times better? I don't know about that.

[JVoutilainen]

Wheelgunslinger,

I wonder about that, as well. People seem perfectly comfortable with blowing that same sum, or even much more, on a weekend of partying. And what about having dinner at a (not necessarily so) fancy restaurant? With 300 bucks, or 200 euros you could just about manage it... if you skip wine and dessert. How much do we spend on electronics annually? Is it OK to actually use that 2000 dollar laptop, or should it be locked away behind thick glass and simply displayed?

I use them all - regardless of the price. It is the best way to celebrate the skill of the maker...AND, more to the point, enjoy the product.

[JVoutilainen]

Is a $300 knife better than an Opinel? Sure. Is it 33X times better? I don't know about that.

Yes, it can be. But that does not mean it would be similar to a lightsaber. You need a certain amount of skill and experience to be able to enjoy the difference. Someone mentioned whisky earlier. That is also a acquired taste - one that you need to develop to appreciate the difference between conventional and exquisite. Does it mean that the difference between ordinary bulk product and the high-end is "x33"? Yes, it could be, and more, because the scale is subjective.

By the way. What is it about money that makes it so valuable to you? It is a funny picture printed on a piece of paper backed with an illusion. Be glad as long as you can trade pieces of paper for something concrete.

[leadcounsel]

What is it about money that makes it so valuable to you? It is a funny picture printed on a piece of paper backed with an illusion. Be glad as long as you can trade pieces of paper for something concrete.

Those pieces of paper represent my time, which equates to my life in hours and days...

If I can get a adequate knife that I can use for the majority of cutting tasks, that is comfortable, ergonimic, etc. for $70, and spend the other $230 (3 times difference) on other items, such as tires for the car, ammo for the gun, electric bill, etc., then I'll buy the $70 and keep the other silly pictures on paper money...

[BigN]

I wouldn't spend $20 on a knife. But then again, I'm not a knife guy. I can understand the collectors standpoint, or the guy who feels he needs a quality knife. People spend money, lots of money, on the things that are important to them. I know guys who carry a $10 camera in the woods to take pictures. Camera equipment? It's important to me. I have many thousands of dollars worth of camera equipment. Why? I love to take pictures and that is important to me. When I go in the woods, hunting, fishing, or hiking, whatever, I have a $1500 Nikon digital strapped to my chest. The guys think I'm nuts. As they say, to each his own, that's what makes the world go round :D

[JVoutilainen]

Those pieces of paper represent my time, which equates to my life in hours and days...

Exactly. But at the same time a custom knife maker is not allowed to follow a similar principle? As I have said, many times, it takes about eight hours for a skilled craftsman to make a typical puukko knife (forging the blade, grinding, casting bolsters, fitting bolsters, fitting a handle, shaping the handle, finishing the handle, sharpening, making the last for the "tuppi" or sheath, making the sheath... so on, and so forth). If the maker wants an average salary, by Finnish standards, he would have to ask about 400€ euros for the end product. Instead, you will get completely handmade puukkos for 100€, or so - even from famous makers. So, tell me, why is it expected that a craftspersons time is worth less?

[JVoutilainen]

When I go in the woods, hunting, fishing, or hiking, whatever, I have a $1500 Nikon digital strapped to my chest. The guys think I'm nuts. As they say, to each his own, that's what makes the world go round

For some reason I don't think that is crazy, at all...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VlFgsG1Ck4Y/TsjjXzLrjEI/AAAAAAAAAYU/hmDDqfvisso/s650/Rinne.jpg

[Pete D.]

Y'know.....this discussion treads into very murky areas.....we are talking about worth, about value. Dangerous and difficult words.
Is a $300 knife worth 33X an Opinel? What does that mean? I have a bunch of Opinels - great and handy knives. I keep two in the kitchen. I used to carry one on my belt. I've carried another one in my pocket.
But they don't do for me what the Boye knife does......that ineffable something that transcends mere utility. I have a lot of knives....I'm not a collector: I just like the things and buy them. Some - like the Boye - are special in ways that are hard to define, maybe impossible to define. If you are comparing Opinels, or Bucks, or Schrades to custom knives....if you don't "see" that difference, then the discussion has no place to go. In discussions like this one, if you are arguing about utility vs. worth and value, you are essentially at a dead end. How does one define worth? It's as tough as "need". Do I need more than one knife really? Do I need, really, more than one shotgun, rifle, pistol? Do I need that Damascus folder? Yeah, I do. It's not "just a knife".
Pete

[wheelgunslinger]

I find such a discussion of pragmatic cost accounting a little funny, when it comes from this community.
I mean, we're the same population (generally) who made plastic pistols de rigeur because of all the torture tests. Instead of deciding that we needed a nice pinned and recessed Smith or a 1911, shooters decided that they needed a plastic handgun that had been frozen in ice, buried in mud, and all other kinds of torture tests. Glock's ad campaigns literally redefined what was an acceptable standard for choosing a sidearm, even though most people will never take one into the tundra, a peat bog, or run over one with a bulldozer right before they need it.
We avail ourselves of numerous excuses about guns, but tell ourselves an opposite set of excuses when it comes to blades.

I realize we're all different and no one is a 2d figure of a firearms enthusiast or owner. I'm just saying that we, as a group, have a reputation for falling prey to the worst case scenario and .mil advertising hype until it comes to knives.
Then, it seems, just ok is the standard.
"will this handgun fire after having been thrown through a wood chipper?"
"will this knife open a bag of peanuts?"
:D

[EvilGenius]

I find such a discussion of pragmatic cost accounting a little funny, when it comes from this community.
I mean, we're the same population (generally) who made plastic pistols de rigeur because of all the torture tests. Instead of deciding that we needed a nice pinned and recessed Smith or a 1911, shooters decided that they needed a plastic handgun that had been frozen in ice, buried in mud, and all other kinds of torture tests. Glock's ad campaigns literally redefined what was an acceptable standard for choosing a sidearm, even though most people will never take one into the tundra, a peat bog, or run over one with a bulldozer right before they need it.
We avail ourselves of numerous excuses about guns, but tell ourselves an opposite set of excuses when it comes to blades.

I realize we're all different and no one is a 2d figure of a firearms enthusiast or owner. I'm just saying that we, as a group, have a reputation for falling prey to the worst case scenario and .mil advertising hype until it comes to knives.
Then, it seems, just ok is the standard.
"will this handgun fire after having been thrown through a wood chipper?"
"will this knife open a bag of peanuts?"
:D
Because guns are exponentially more likely to fail under those conditions due to their complexity.

Knives aren't nearly as complex, plus if it's packed full of mud or whatever I can just dunk it underwater, shake it around and we're good to go. I would not expect the same results at all in regards to a pistol or rifle.

[ArfinGreebly]

I'm starting to enjoy this thread.

The perspectives show dimension and depth.

Let me chuck out another perspective. Call it the "stayin' alive" perspective.

Since handguns have been added for analogy/comparison, and since a handgun's primary "design purpose" is defense (stayin' alive), let's apply a similar standard to the knife.

Given: A guy buys a gun on which he proposes to depend for protecting his life.

Therefore: A guy buys a knife on which he proposes to depend for preserving his life.

This doesn't imply anything about self defense with a knife. There is no shortage of "preserving his life" scenarios that don't involve a confrontational conflict.

EMT/Fire Crew,
Mountain/Rock Climbing,
Spelunking,
Reef/Sea Diving,
Extended Backwoods Camping,
Severe Conditions Hunting,
Heavy Outdoor Work (e.g. Logging),
[Insert Scenario Here].


Does the $20 knife still work for that? Well, I have a few $20 pieces that might serve in some of those scenarios, but with my life on the line, I think I'd be willing to spring for something a little more dependable.

The "what's your life worth" argument that's heard in gun discussions could be applied here.

Maybe a $50 or $70 knife would do fine in that "crunch" situation. Maybe a guy would want to stack a little more cash on that.

I have several sub-$100 knives that I believe would serve well under harsh conditions. However, if harsh conditions was the plan, I think I might go shopping for something that had such conditions accounted for in the design.

You know, "use the right tool for the job."

No, I'm not throwing my knife into a wood chipper, but I might want to review the failure testing of the design I'm selecting.

With my life on the line, $200 or $300 wouldn't seem like all that much.

[JVoutilainen]

When backpacking I always carry at least two knives - custom, or self made. Typically two puukkos, so that there is no need to start sharpening immediately if I damage the edge of one of the knives, and that I have a spare if the completely unexpected happens and I lose or break the other. In addition to that I have one lightweight slipjoint (not necessarily custom) - just in case. If I had to choose only one knife I would take an older one - one that is trustworthy according to actual experience. I would hesitate to choose a new knife, no matter who made it. That is how I see the survival aspect of the question.

On the other hand, there was a time I would not have recognised a quality blade if someone stuck one between my ribs, and I frequently backpacked in deep arctic backwoods with only a cheopo-crud Ahti on my belt...alone (agreed, not very smart)...and, unsurprisingly*, survived.

*backwoods in Finland means you are, at most, 15 miles from the nearest road...unless you accidentally cross the border into russian siberia.

[wheelgunslinger]

Arfin, that's the point I was getting at.
We'll readily and rabidly agree (most of us, anyway) that you should buy the best gun you can because your life may depend on it.
That same mindset seems to erode when we consider a personal knife.

The knife we carry interacts much more with us in our daily lives. Our previous and succeeding generations see us using them. Our friends borrow them for a few minutes or seconds. The kids, nieces and nephews, and idiot brother in laws learn to sharpen things by watching us put the edge back on our daily knives. We leave the dna of our lives on a knife that goes with us on our day to day journey for long periods of time.
That's a fairly lofty position to fill with something that'll get us by.

However, if you can barely scrape the money together for a decent gun and have a few nickels to rub together for a knife, you do what you gotta do. I get that. :)

[EvilGenius]

Arfin, that's the point I was getting at.
We'll readily and rabidly agree (most of us, anyway) that you should buy the best gun you can because your life may depend on it.
That same mindset seems to erode when we consider a personal knife.


Is the "best gun" also the most expensive?

A lot of the $800-$1000 pistols out there have a lot of fancy doodads designed to make slight increases in accuracy or whatever, yet tend to fail much more than the more moderately priced versions (especially 1911s).

Heck, I could get a Glock for $500 that's arguably the most dependable pistol out there and it'll most definitely get the same job done as any $1000 pistol.

Or in regards to rifles, you could nab a $600 AK that'll be as reliable and get the same job done as the $2000+ high tech stuff that's out there.

[JVoutilainen]

Is the "best gun" also the most expensive?

Is the most expensive knife going to be the most dependable one? Is it going to outperform everything else? It could be, and it could do that, but then again it could just as easily be a fantasy concoction in precious metals, rainbow damascus and with strange bat wing like random protrusions. That might not be the best choice for bushcraft or survival. Again, what ever it is you prefer.

I doubt that any custom maker is going to have a mind numbing price tag on knife designed solely on utility/performance in mind. Then again you'd have to make sure to contact a maker who truly and honestly knows how to bring out those qualities in a knife. Not all of them do. Dependability of a blade has much to do with the correct heat treatment of the steel, therefore, you might have to steer clear of makers who "outsource" their HT-process, for example. I would.

[Valkman]

Dependability of a blade has much to do with the correct heat treatment of the steel, therefore, you might have to steer clear of makers who "outsource" their HT-process, for example. I would.

Really. I outsourced all of my stainless knives to Paul Bos and did all the carbon steel ones myself. I don't know of anyone who "steered clear" because of this, but I did have people buy because it was done by Bos. I am more leary of guys that do their own stainless HT because they simply do not have the equipment that Bos - now Farmer has.

[JVoutilainen]

Valkman,

Yes, really. That would be my choice, and also, my recommendation. Moreover, note that I said "you might have to steer clear", "might" being the key word. IF you have a trusted individual, or a company, to do your heat treat, fine, glad to hear that. However, would I purchase a product like that? No, I would not.

So, now you know at least one person who would steer clear. Not necessarily a big loss for you :D

Edit: Let me expand upon that, a bit. For me the heat treat represents the crux of the entire process. That is the 80%, the "magic". That is the point where the knife is truly made. If you leave that part to a contractor it gives me, the potential customer, a feeling that you are working with materials you do not understand. Furthermore, be it Bos, or any company, how would I know whether they follow the manufacturers instructions to a T? There is no way to know. For me throwing a name, like Bos, around is an appeal to authority. It is a way to avoid the issue. For me, personally, it does not work.

[wolf695]

A good knife is aways worth the$! It should take a beaten,and sharpen up !

[Pete D.]

The knife we carry interacts much more with us in our daily lives.
+1. The most basic tool.
Is the most expensive knife always the best one. No. $300 knives, however, are not the most expensive.
Pete

[JTW Jr.]

Furthermore, be it Bos, or any company, how would I know whether they follow the manufacturers instructions to a T? There is no way to know. For me throwing a name, like Bos, around is an appeal to authority. It is a way to avoid the issue. For me, personally, it does not work.

In the knife world , having BOS do the heat treat is like having Lingenfelter build your Vette engine , or a Rousch engine , etc.

I put more trust in someone who only does HT and has spent countless years perfecting that one process.

As many knifemakers have said , using BOS for the HT is like insurance that the steel is now all it can be.

*****************
You can't compare a custom 1911 to a custom knife as I don't know of any custom gunsmiths who make their own frames , slides and blls....so in the end are they not just refined "builds" ? :)

*****************

Now as far as how much to spend on a knife... "smiles-per-dollar" , that ratio is different for everyone. I would never drop more than $30 on a single meal , but others may fancy dropping $200 on a meal. To me , what is the difference ? It is going to do the same thing , give me nutrition and be cleaned up with charmin later , so why spend the extra money ? ;)

Does a $300 bottle of scotch give you that much more than a $30 bottle ? To some yes , others no.

We all put our $$$ where it makes us happy , we may not NEED these more expensive things , but there isn't anything wrong with having them.

If I break down the # of times I use my knife vs # of times I use my carry gun , the knife is a better deal value wise , gives me more smiles-per-dollar , but I enjoy them both

[JVoutilainen]

JTW Jr.,

So, If I'm not convinced by the first appeal to authority, maybe I will be persuaded by repetition? It does not work that way...for me.

Listen, I know what the name Bos represents for many people. That is, however, not the issue. If you are happy to have a "custom" knife with an "industrial" heat treatment, fine - what ever rocks your boat, as they say. I would choose a maker who has the necessary facilities and faculties to heat treat even "novelty" steels, instead. When I want custom, I don't want semi mass produced, I want truly hand made. And no, I am not saying this is the ONLY path you can take, but for me, personally, it is the most appealing one.

Consider this. When you buy a production buck knife, with a Bos era heat treatment, is it equal to a hand made knife meticulously and individually produced by a master of his craft, when it comes to heat treatment? In you book the answer is obviously a resounding "YES", but in mine it is, unsurprisingly, "probably not".

Before you take offense at my words, take that famous "chill pill" and realise I am NOT saying that heat treatment done by Bos's company can't be good. In fact, I believe it can be excellent, but, it is not my cup of tea, and I recognise the limitations of mass production vs. individual attention. That is all.

[Valkman]

Man you got some strange ideas about heat treating. You'd prefer I do it in my shop even though I cannot have the same equipment as Buck Knives? You'd prefer inferior to superior? I have read the opinions of many knifemakers and customers and never have I read anything like this. You are in a great minority.

[JVoutilainen]

Valkman,

You'd prefer I do it in my shop even though I cannot have the same equipment as Buck Knives?

As it happens, I just indicated specifically what it is I want in my previous post - and it is, by no stretch of imagination, something inferior. The reason you choose to ignore/misinterpret what I said is something else. And since this is not a psychology forum, I suggest we just agree to disagree on the issue.

You got one thing right. I am in the minority, probably not even in the one percent. Not because of skill, but because of the choices I make. But, at least the those choices are my own.

To be blunt, I don't care what the "majority" chooses to believe. That is perception - it has nothing to do with truth. And the truth is that there are custom makers who do have both the skill and the equipment to perform every trick in the book, INDIVIDUALLY on every single knife they make.

[JVoutilainen]

For some reason I feel an urge to rant about this topic, just a bit.

As I have already stated, there is no doubt that people who think the story ends at 60 bucks, or at Buck factory, or at BOS are locked in an old fashioned control paradigm, where the opinion of an authority figure is considered gospel. Our entire history tells us that dreaming about mankind ever finding the pinnacle of technological develpment is an illusion, upheld solely to bolster the leading powers of the day. Our reality, at this very moment, is that every individual, with the financial means and a necessary set of skills, is going to be able to achieve/produce technology that easily rivals the apollo program, for example. Obviously not on that scale, but technologically speaking, yes. These days we have access to tabletop versions of computer guided machinery that were formerly reserved solely for industry - meaning that we have the keys to direct our own technological development in a decentralised manner. It is not arrogant to state that.

Why then, do respectable people start acting all foolish when confronted with such obvious facts? Because they have, unbeknownst to themselves, attached part of their ego on that old paradigm. So, when I say the buck might not stop at Bucks, they interpret that as a personal insult.

So, am I truly arrogant if I claim we are not at the end of the road of development? No, I am demonstrably not. Am I wrong to claim that things that were formerly reserved for high-tech goverment agencies are now commonly in use in our garages? Again the answer is, clearly, no. But, people think it is arrogant to point out these facts, because the ”majority” has been literally conditioned to scoff, and laugh at anything outside the ”accepted reality”, more to the point, their narrow perspective, and they need a confirmation from what they consider an authority to be able to move forward. That is, after all, how you become succesful in life, right? You get trained, accept a set of beliefs and integrate. Sorry, not for me. I recognise that were are at the beginning of our technological development, but to seriously move forward on larger scale we need a paradigm shift in consciousness. The top of the pyramid is already moving, and it is worrying that the rest of us are not.

Does that mean I’m a ”new ager”. No, because I don’t believe in enlightenment through meditation, or drugs, or wishful thinking, I believe in enlightenment through hard work, taking chances and making/accepting mistakes and learning from them. I also believe it is healthy to shake the tree from time to time, to find out whether it truly has it's roots deeply embedded in Reality. Apparently some people consider that foolish, apparently they think they can find the fountain of knowledge just by floating in mid-stream. I have no problem saying they are fools.

As I indicated earlier I see the process of heat treatment (each polar opposite of the scale) as the 80% of knife making. That is the pivotal point, key, the crux of the matter - that is the magic, the alchemy. I also believe in a wider reality than commonly accepted. I really consider things like; since the hardening process involves magnetism, is it possible that the earths (or local) magnetic fields have an effect on the internal structure of the steel and orientation of the carbides, for example. How about gravity? How does that, and particularly the local differences in the field, effect the end product.

These are rational questions, but, nearly impossible to discuss with the vast majority of knife enthusiasts, even knife makers, especially when there is a crowd of people - all conditioned to consider deep contemplation as something ridiculous, pretentious or arrogant - present. That needs to change. One good example of the difficulties is the controvercial issue of damascus, wootz and pattern welding. Some time ago I tried to explore the topic on this board, but got told by an administrator that the issue is beyond the scope of this forum. The High Road? Truly?

[kamagong]

Interesting viewpoints. I'm not sure where I fall on the heat treatment issue, but it's always good to think about these things.

With regards to Paul Bos, he is a heat treatment guru. It is understandable that people in the industry send him their blades for heat treatment; nobody does it better. But if I remember correctly, Bos specializes in stainless steels like S30V. Heat treating stainless steels properly requires expensive equipment that many makers just can't afford. So they farm out the heat treatment to Bos.

On the other hand it is interesting to note that most, if not all, of the acknowledged masters do everything themselves, including HT. I'm talking about people like Tony Bose, Don Fogg, and Ed Fowler. These are men highly respected by their peers, who share their knowledge freely, and whose advice others seek. They are masters of course, and not everyone shares their skill.

[JVoutilainen]

kamagong,

I don't doubt for one moment mr. Bos's skill, and were I to order a knife made by Bos, and heat treated by Bos personally, I would have no issue. The problem is, it is a company, and because of the sheer number that pass through that company I consider it mass production. Now, mass production does not mean "bad", but it is not "custom".

I would add Jay Fisher to your list.

[wheelgunslinger]

Is the "best gun" also the most expensive?
Nope. But, it's a caveat emptor world.

I think we can both agree that the cheapest is usually just that.
The rest is a discussion about whether to buy a Ford or a Chevy.

[EvilGenius]

Yup.

[wheelgunslinger]

Yay! XD

[EvilGenius]

Yay! XD
I do agree.

But I'd also like to point out that a Mercedes/Aston Martin/Audi/etc. all have nice things and are very expensive, but at the end of the day, don't really do anything a ford/Chevy can't in regards to driving.















Except parallel park.

[JTW Jr.]

And the truth is that there are custom makers who do have both the skill and the equipment to perform every trick in the book, INDIVIDUALLY on every single knife they make.
Yes there are some , and there are some who perceive ( some say deceive) to have some super secret squirrel HT method.

Very few makers make all the parts of their knives , do they cut down the tree and stabilized their own handle material ?

There are a select FEW that do , but they all start with raw steel made by someone else , either in bar , rod or other form...so they are not custom either by your reasoning.

Getting the most of a steel is one thing , being able to get the knowledge to make every different type of steel a knifemaker works with to be the best it can be takes many many years ! I will leave that up to someone who has the ability to nail those temps each time , control that heat cycle , and have the means to do the cryo treatment , this lets me focus on making knives.

I don't call my knives customs or semi-customs , to me they are knives made by me. I don't do my own HT , but I do cut my blades from bar stock , grind my own blades , cut out my own scales materials and make my own sheaths , leather and kydex.

Many knifemakers sell a fixed blade without a sheath , does is make it no longer custom if they outsource the sheath ?

But I'd also like to point out that a Mercedes/Aston Martin/Audi/etc. all have nice things and are very expensive, but at the end of the day, don't really do anything a ford/Chevy can't in regards to driving.

Compare a Chevy to an Aston Martin.....rofl , now that is funny.

If you haven't driven one , you can't compare how they drive , and they do drive different... especially when you drop the hammer and point it into a corner....( and yes I have driven a DB7 ).

[Valkman]

Bos was good enough for Bob Loveless, so he was good enough for me.

[JTW Jr.]

Bos was good enough for Bob Loveless, so he was good enough for me.

You got that right...Bob and Paul go way back to the beginning...

[Gordon]

I have a Valkman CPM 154 fighter heat treated by Bos (when he wuz still around) and it is under my mattress on a gunbelt with a CZPO-1 with a light attached. My $300 first line defense and about the onliest Stainless steel knife . I got it on a smokin THR $225 deal but it certainly IS a $300 IMHO! I chopped fruit tree limbs and cactus around the house with it and cut up chickens and other meat bar B queing, something I think stainless excells at. I think Bos wuz an excellent choice for this steel. All my other custom knives are made out of carbon steel that the masters who created them differentially heat treated to perfection. There is something about a 62-63 Rockwell C edge with a 50-55 spine that cannot be matched ! Materials part before their edge and you WILL NOT break the blade no matter what you have to do.. period. Plus they have "soul" , they want to do their job and work with your hands and body in a harmonious manner. I do have a few specialty knives that don't cost more than $100 stashed at work stations, but going out 'armed' I'll take an expensive custom to get the EDGE!

[hso]

I have Opis and I have knives that cost $300+.

To me, each has their "value".

It is a true fact that beyond a point the cost of a knife produces diminishing returns on practical use improvement, but that's been the case with any tool through time. 80% of the cost is in getting the last 20% improvement in performance. Start stacking these out to wring out the last point or two and it gets pricey, BUT that alone isn't the only issue when you get into expensive items.

As pointed out by some already the value in that additional cost is in the ornamental materials, the ergonomics and the sheer artistry of a knife. Push performance in a beautiful package and you get into expensive territory quickly. Toss in the difficulty of the methods (I have a large sword blade made by Louis Mills who smelted the ore to make the steel to forge be billet to forge the blade who quenched and polished the blade. Another artist made the tsuba and other fittings from a Civil War anchor chain and built the sword out. Nothing was mass produced except the cord wrapping the grip. Other makers of swords have commented it was the most perfect tachi blade they'd ever handled. In short, a unique work of blade art.).

Do I value my Opinels and Moras? Sure I do. Do I value a hand forged ivory handled bowie with filework painstakingly worked into the pattern of the knife. Of course.

[JVoutilainen]

JTW Jr.,

The problem is that you do not really read what I am writing. No, I don't expect the maker to "cut down the tree" for the handle material. Similarly I don't expect the maker to actually produce the steel he uses. Why is that? Notice that I have tried, once or twice, explain what I consider to be the point when a knife is made. I have even explained how that represents, for me, the 80%. Apparently this is not making it clear enough? Why is that? Well, we return to the topic of people refusing to see obvious things because of ego-attachement to an ideology, or certain world view.

Anyone, with relatively little practice, can make an object that looks kinda like a knife, even a handsome knife - if they don't have to heat treat. That is the 20%. Say what you wish, but the FACT remains that heat treatment by Bos means a heat treatment by BOS, the company, and that IS mass production. That would make your "custom" knife 20% custom... in my book. If you are happy with that, again, fine by me. Would I recommend a knife like that for someone who wants custom? No.

Yes there are some , and there are some who perceive ( some say deceive) to have some super secret squirrel HT method.

Nice. Now you are implying that people who have the means to do their own heat treatment have to be charlatans. Great attitude.

I really should concentrate more on this comment, because it brings out an older topic... but I won't.

No, I'm not trying to be subtle this time, either.

Bos was good enough for Bob Loveless, so he was good enough for me.

So, if I don't react when one big name gets thrown to the table, maybe another one will turn me around. Doesn't work that way... because that has nothing to do with the issue - something you would understand if you just looked beyond your (hurt) ego, to what I'm actually saying.

Yeah, it is apparent that I would not be one of your customers. Does that mean I consider your knives useless - without ever even having handled one? No, absolutely not. Do I consider your knives "custom"-knives? No, because they are, clearly, not. Not for me, that is.

EvilGenius sez:
But I'd also like to point out that a Mercedes/Aston Martin/Audi/etc. all have nice things and are very expensive, but at the end of the day, don't really do anything a ford/Chevy can't in regards to driving.

Yeeaaaahhhh... for sure. What ever helps you get through days without one.

Gordon,

Now, that is what I am talking about.

[JVoutilainen]

hso,

Nothing better than having masters collaborate on a project - usually leads to the creation of mind blowing stuff. Japanese lacquerware being one good example.

[Strykervet]

Because you found a brand new Randall at half price!

A super quality knife like that would be nice, but I have to live with the K-Bar and Buck I have, and they don't get out often as it is. I use a cheap, small Gerber Applegate/Fairbairn folder --I'm afraid to use anything more expensive for fear of losing it.

Finally, knives are made differently from different metals for different uses. Depending on the use, or say you are a martial arts afficianado, you may want their $600 tanto as opposed to flea market garbage, and the soldier may want a tougher field knife that won't break when used as a pry bar. No different than firearms really --no gun nut worth his salt totes a Hi-Point, just like no knife nut totes a convenience store special.

[22-rimfire]

So what was the question again?

Why would I spend $300 on just a knife?

$300 tends to be the upper-middle to upper end of factory knives. Unfortunately, at $300 for custom knives, you are near the lower end.

After handling my brother in law's Randalls around 1990, I wanted a Randall. I had to have a Randall. It is not even a custom; commonly said to be semi-custom (but still a factory blade). Got the Randall and being the kind of person I am, I acquired a few more Randalls. In those days, many dealers at Gun Shows had a few Randall's for sale at generally factory pricing. Now you pay a premium for the most part to have it "now".

Randall knives opened my eyes up to other blades and I used Randall pricing as my compare point. I have moved on to other makers and knives since then, but I still really love to fondle my Randalls.

I have found that I am hesitant to use a $300+ knife when I have $100 knives that cut for the most part just as well. It is as HSO said, there is a point of diminishing returns with knives, guns, and any tools you use or simply "like". There is a pride of ownership involved with just having good tools.

I use Bob Dozier's custom knives. I really like them and the price point is affordable for a very good knife. I'd like to use some of my other ones, but you get to the point of "why bother?" with an knife accumulation. The same can be said about firearms. I have new guns I have purchased to shoot and have only fired them a couple of times. It is hard to alter one's path when you are comfortable with what you have already and have confidence with. But that does not stop me from looking at the new this or that and wanting one.

[JTW Jr.]

last comment to you on this...

Anyone, with relatively little practice, can make an object that looks kinda like a knife, even a handsome knife - if they don't have to heat treat.

HT is just a part of the process , other things like design , blade thickness , grind hind , edge thickness , etc all come into play. What you perceive as being a huge part is actually not the 80% that you "claim". You are certainly in a minority with your view on what makes a knife not be a custom.

There are plenty who think you can just take high carbon to non-mag and quench it in any old oil and that is fine , they would be wrong , and many have proven that.

A HT expert like Paul ( who has now retired ) has 42 years of experience with HT on a huge range of steels , to expect a knife maker to be able to match that AND make knives is a huge learning curve. Many do not start out doing their own HT , but once they get the knife making part down to where it is second nature, they then take on the learning curve of proper HT.

There is a huge difference between " heat treat " and proper heat treat. If you don't RC your blades , how will you know your HT worked ?

Sure there are makers who have the whole setup , do their own HT , RC test each blade , either stock removal or forgers , but they are not in the price range of $300 :)


That would make your "custom" knife 20% custom.
by your reasoning it would make it 80% custom , but again I don't consider what I make custom since I don't take orders , I make what I want , it's a hobby for me , not a way to earn a living.

Just curious as to how many knives you have made, since you have so much insight.
Or is just theory you speak from , in theory there is no difference , where in application , there is.

[Gordon]

"but they are not in the price range of $300 "
BINGO! :)

[J32A2]

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/bvh1980/vbscarab002.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/bvh1980/NEWW1001.jpg

[JVoutilainen]

JTW Jr.,

Ditto, because I can see this is really going nowhere.

How many times do I have to say that it (HT 80%) is the key, to me, personally, before you can take that in.

And about heat treat not being the 80%. Take one of your non heat treated (steel) knives and start whittling. Then tell me what you've accomplished. Heat treating a blade does not necessarily take 80% of your time, when you make a knife, but that is the moment which defines the true value of the product. For me, note, for me, that IS the 80%.

A HT expert like Paul ( who has now retired ) has 42 years of experience with HT on a huge range of steels , to expect a knife maker to be able to match that AND make knives is a huge learning curve.

As I have already said - and I'm getting REALLY tired of parroting the same thing all over again - when you send your knives to Bos, you are sending them to BOS, the company, not the man himself. More obvious now when he is retired. That makes your "custom" HT process mass production. Apparently it is impossible for you to make that distinction. Furthermore, I specifically said that were I to order a knife made by Bos, and heat treated by Bos, personally (and individually, not part of a batch), I would have no issue. Yes, I realise that is not possible, but hypothetically speaking.

There is a huge difference between " heat treat " and proper heat treat.

Would you believe that that is not really news for me.

Sure there are makers who have the whole setup , do their own HT , RC test each blade , either stock removal or forgers , but they are not in the price range of $300

You would be wrong on that. You should have said that you do not have that option in the States. That would probably be accurate. How much does your generalization leave out of the equation... well, not that much, just the rest of the planet.

Just curious as to how many knives you have made, since you have so much insight.

Hah, you are reaching for new lows. No way to break through the conditioning? Right?

You see it does not take experience as a knife maker to know about the world of knives. Also, it does not take experience as a knife maker to be able to point out the FACT that BOS heat treatment is not individual (custom) service, but mass production. And I would not have to be a knife maker to know, as a FACT, that Buck is most definitely not the leading authority of metallurgy in the world.

As it happens though, I have been making knives, or delving into the world in general, for about five or six years now. Not commercially, or full time. I have also worked with highly regarded finnish master blade smiths . In fact, one of them (winner of the masters series in Fiskars knife construction competition, and multiple other gold medals) has been my teacher in the field. As I have said, I am a woodworking professional, because it is very difficult to make a living out of knives in country so small, and with so many brilliant knife (puukko) makers. That said, I find the idea tempting, still.

Here is one I made, one that I have posted here before, just to give you an example. The model is inspired by Kokemäen-, and Rautalammin-puukko. That is why the shoulders of the blade are visible. Rautalammis influence can be seen in the "mirror", or the part that contains the blade, of the sheath.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8QZ6cNML4Xc/S5a-7Nru3jI/AAAAAAAAALI/jpbNOkdKMbE/s512/pieniuusikeklu.jpg

Not the best possible picture, but you get the idea.

It is made out of Wr 1.2210, which is a high carbon steel with 0.7Cr and 0.1V. That is about the toughest material I am willing to tackle with my limited experience. It has been differentially hardened, and after multiple tempers it is at about HRC 61-62. You could go for HRC 63 with "silver steel", but, personally I prefer a blade that is not that hard. Being confident and fast at sharpening I don't need blades that have exceptionally long edge retention. Although it must be said that this one has one, regardless.

Here is a blade I made, not recently, but still. Also posted here before. You can see from the picture that I forge my blades. Grind is hollow on this one, and I make it freehand. I don't use jigs at any stage, because that would make it, in my book, less of a hand made knife than I prefer.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uvOx_zQvXPY/Srzh6DxTXnI/AAAAAAAAAGw/Em3GsuInLpw/s650/joojoojoo%252520001a.jpg

Once I get onto calmer waters with my new (or old, to be more accurate) house I will have, hopefully, more time to make knives. I promise to post the results.

[hso]

JVoutilainen,

Your perspective is that of the "sole authorship" collector. Short of making the steel and machining the fasteners and trimming a chunk of shin-bone off their own leg, sole authorship makers purchase all the basic materials and produce a finished knife from them. Some sole authorship collectors want to see, but don't insist on, a good sheath from the knife maker, but that's asking a bit much for someone to produce an attractive useful knife AND be able to crank out an attractive useful sheath. The sole authorship collector would like the to see the maker produce the fasteners and the steel, but that's just the ideal.

I've helped make steel in the traditional Japanese method and carry a little piece of it around with me as a reminder of the fun in making it.

Whether a maker does everything themselves or they collaborate with others (steel makers, fastener makers, heat treaters, sheath makers) they're making something unique and beautiful that not everyone will appreciate.

[JVoutilainen]

hso,

Well, yes and no. That is why I gave the japanese lacquerware example... and you probably know that they are often made by multiple artists in collaboration. That is an art form I appreciate immensely.

I've helped make steel in the traditional Japanese method and carry a little piece of it around with me as a reminder of the fun in making it.

Nice!

Making steel out of "järvirauta", or lake iron, with traditional methods is actually something I dream about doing. Also, I have been saving suitable magnets so that I can go "fishing" for iron sand for a tatara-smelt. There is a guy in Funland (Hynynen), whos progress in steel making I have been following - when ever he posts his valuable findings on the net (unfortunately I don't have the honour of knowing the guy personally). I really really admire his work.

Not so long ago I tried to get a neighbor, who is a brilliant man, to join in a smelting project, but, as I described the process to him, I noticed his eyes glaze over and sensed that he thought " this poor fella is out of his mind" :D

[ArfinGreebly]

One of the distinguishing characteristics of humanity is the ability to learn method and process from those who have perfected it and to devise and apply repeatable methodology to such a process.

Manufacturing, in the sense of mass production, is such a process.

While it can be tempting to associate "manufactured" with "second rate" in quality, it should also be noted that the "starving artist" metaphor of production lacks viability: it serves few and often rewards none.

If a business that produces essentially a commodity product -- tools -- is to survive long enough to feed its families, at some point it must automate what can be automated, or be condemned to serve a demographic which may appreciate them mightily but won't keep them fed, absent a wealthy benefactor.


Hoyt Buck ran an actual forge and machine shop. He made knives by hand. He didn't produce them on a large scale because, well, he made them by hand. His son, Al Buck learned from his father, in the forge and machine shop, and took the next step, introducing repeatable processes.

While that was going on, Paul Bos -- still a teenager -- was learning heat treat from a blacksmith who specialized in heat treatment. It was a process that used to be called "apprenticeship" back when people still knew what that was.

Paul met the Buck family through Frank Buck, a racing buddy, who would be in his sixties today had he lived. Paul's business dovetailed nicely with Buck's knifemaking operation, and they forged a partnership that lasted for decades. He finally sold his business to Buck in 2001, but stayed with them, retiring only recently.

The knifemakers with whom he worked were guys he'd served for 20 years and more -- some as long as 30 -- and the fellows who took over the operation had themselves gone through this arcane and lost "apprenticeship" ritual.

There are few people in the world, anywhere, that have achieved Paul's mastery of heat treatment. The people who now carry on his legacy aren't simply technicians who know "which button to push." They are men who have learned not only the how but also the why of the methods and processes.

While it's commonplace in business to see "process" reduced to monkey-see-monkey-do button pushing by barely trained technicians -- all in the interest of efficiency of course -- that's not what has transpired here.

What's happened with Paul Bos and Buck is the transference of a craft, through years of participation and training (that "apprenticeship" thing again).


Because Buck Knives Inc. is a business, and is expected to put bread on the tables of hundreds of people, process and machinery are employed to produce a product of sufficient quality at economically viable quantities to serve as broad a public as possible over as many generations as possible.

They walk a production tightrope with local/internal economics on one side and offshoring competitors on the other, endeavoring to keep the bulk of their production domestic, produce viable knives, and still hit a price point that keeps them in the market.


Since none of what I just wrote is "news" to most of the folks here, why would I bother?

Only this: the production of a single knife, to exacting specs, from top grade materials, using skilled and practiced methods, with the result being a work of art that will also cut things is an achievement worthy of merit and praise; the production of thousands of them while maintaining cost and quality, usability and affordability, performance and market viability, and doing it all while meeting a standard on which one's family's reputation depends is orders of magnitude harder, and the benefits affect a much broader population.

I admire high quality steelcraft as much as the next guy.

I also have great admiration for the accomplishments of a family that brings a quality product within my reach, and has done so over four generations.

Both of them evoke humility from me.

[Gordon]

Honey why don't you leave this knife in the kitchen? "It's a $1000 knife!" Well it is wonderful for carving, it's the way to go!
So there ya go!:D
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/036.jpg

[alaskanativeson]

...Or in regards to rifles, you could nab a $600 AK that'll be as reliable and get the same job done as the $2000+ high tech stuff that's out there.
Um, no. You can get an aspect of quality they may share. The AK will be as reliable as anything, because that's what they do. In fact, it's what they do better than just about anything that's ever been devised by man as far as firearms go. However, if I'm a FBI HRT sniper, my $600 AK47 will fire every single time I pull the trigger, but how many times will I need to shoot it at the bad guy who's 1500 meters away before I hit him? Now if I had a $2000 Steyr SSG, how many shots will it take? Different specialty, different role filled, both world class features.

Before I moved up to Alaska I knew I'd have different needs than I did living in Utah. Knowing I would be in areas where there were bears big enough to fit my head in their mouths, I wanted a gun I knew would handle the situation. For large bear medicine, I knew there was only one choice for me: A 12 gauge loaded with Brenneke slugs. However, which shotgun to choose? My cousin was very excited about his new Benelli, and I loved shooting it. However, what tipped it for me was reading that the U.S. Marines chose the Mossberg 590 as their shotty of choice since it was the only gun that suffered zero failures or malfunctions in their torture tests. I knew I had my bear country gun. In that case I could have chosen a more expensive gun with a specific speciality that wasn't related to my need, but I went with what I figured fit my parameters best. Still, quality was the deciding factor, but it was quality aimed at the task I'd chosen. Same thing with my knives.

[bikerdoc]

Perspective.
You all know Im a knife affecienado. So far I have stayed out of this discusion as aquisition and taste is a personal call.
Just my .02. Why would I spend 300 on a knife? Answer, cause I can:) Have I ever, no. Not in cash.

Let me explain and further complicate things by saying I have made a few knives. The one I prize the most took about 30 hours to finish, even if I value my time at $10 an hour, thats 300 bucks.
I have a retired knife I bought in 1966. An old Edge brand soligen, 5 inch clip point. Got it at the PX at Ft. Benning. Paid, I think $9.95. Carried it in Viet Nam. I value that knife priceless.
Perspective.
So I guess I havnt been much help after all. :)

[HellBlazer]

$300 isn't that much for a knife. Take a look at Busse Combat or Randall! :what:

[Meridian Blades]

Well it looks like this has come full circle........Wow theres a lot of misinformation out there. Amazing. Nobody has brought this up yet but thought it was worth mentioning......

Lots of folks keep mentioning "Diminished returns",,,,etc. The original poster posted pics of some Busse blades. The secondary market for these is most times higher than the original purchase price. I guess that we could call this "Enhanced returns" ???

Not a fanboy just stating the facts. Some of the $300 -$600 Busse blades get purchased at that price and sold a week or 2 later for a couple hundred bucks more or so. :evil:

[kozak6]

Diminishing returns, meaning that quality increases more slowly than price. Not depreciation.

The whole Busse thing is something else altogether, just like the Atwood tools. It's artificial scarcity creating boutique collector's value.

[Meridian Blades]

It really doesnt matter what you call it, or whether or not you think it's aritificially created, or if you even like the Busse blades. Thats what the market bears right now. So I have a hard time seeing anything "diminished" with buying one of those blades. In fact, I have seen used blades selling for more than the original price from the factory, in the secondary market. Do I own any Busse blades...........No, but thats what is happening.

[stevek]

I buy knives that appeal to me, some are expensive, others not so much. I have a few Busse's, Chris Reeve, Hinderer, Strider etc. I also have some Spyderco, Benchmade, and Zero Tolerance.

I have Glocks, Kimbers, S&W, Sig, and Ed Brown pistols.

My guitars and amps tend to be Custom or Custom Shop/small boutique builds.

I notice and appreciate the differences between all my tools.

As a broad generalization though, I've found that buying quality from the beginning, ends up being less expensive than buying for less initially, and having to replace the cheaper product.

Just my .02

[hso]

It really doesnt matter what you call it,

Yes, it really does matter whether you're using the correct word.

Diminishing returns means that as you put more money and effort into improving an item the rate of improvement for the same amount of additional money/effort is less than the previous cost/effort step in improvement. Or put another way, what you gain takes more effort than the previous step as your continue to improve the item. It explains why something twice as good as another similar item is more than twice the price (because it took more than twice the effort/cost to make that improvement).

A lot of valuable items take more time to produce than can meet demand so the after market is higher, as you so cogently pointed out. You can invest in the expensive item to find it appreciate in value while watching the inexpensive item depreciate in value as time goes on until too few of them exist in good condition that they might become collectible in their own right as antiques (old advertising knives are a great example of this).

[wolf695]

I have found with knives the old saying is true(you get what you pay for) ! Most of the time anyway! Guys that use them everyday,will say the same! Myself I carry two folders everywhere,sometimes three! One for every little thing,one for serious work,and sometimes a backup! Mostly because I forget to sharpen them on a weekly time frame. Two of them are 10-30$ blades, then I have my baby and 80's buck 500! Granted not a 2or 3 hundred dollar blade, for life depending trips A good blade is a must!

[robinkevin]

The question has a very simple answer...

A person who buys a $300 knife does so cause they have the extra money to do so. Myself $300 is a week pay and half my house payment... Me my knives are working class knives Buck, SAK, Case, (old)Brokers that work just as good just as hard but for a lot less... kinda like myself I reckon.

[JTW Jr.]

The other day I sat there with my 1911 , a Blackwood Fixed Blade , Elishewitz folder and a John Lloyd trapper in front of me , I realized , this stuff is worth more than my car..... and I am purfectly ok with that.

Ya' puts yer $$$$ in what is important to you.

20 years ago , it was cars....and motorcycles and racing go-karts ( KT100 ).........now for me , its firepower , blades , pc and camera stuff first , cars last :)

[Gordon]

Why would somebody spend $3000 on THE original proto type Saxon Sword from Mad Dog Knives? This knife has been abused bymany folk before I got it, Kevin resharpened it hair popping sharp. You can shave your legs like a baby butt and not bend over! The hair is stuck in the XF& that covers it's slumber in my safe after I carved a few pumpkins last week :D
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/007-7.jpg

19" x 1.5" prehardened Starrett O1 hard chromed after differential hardening to a Rockwell C 63 edge. Ergonomic virtually indestrucable 2 handed grip. I am sure I can take off a head with one good whack. :neener:


Why would some moron wait 3 years and spend $900 on a carbon steel 4" skinner/processing knife? This one began it's carreer skinning this fall and is still shaving sharp ! I will be doing a few wild boar ect. before it gets re razored in July from Kevin when I visit. Use a skinning knife all year and get it sharpened in 15 minutes for free- for ever!
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/008-4.jpg

[hso]

Gordon,

How many of what type critters has the 4" knife reduced to meaty bits this season?

[Gordon]

Two Blacktail deer,one goat and two wild turkey. I received the Baby Rhino in July 2011 and only used it since. Here is a close up of the edge showing use and staining.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/009-2.jpg

[Doug S]

Give me a good old Walmart, Buck 110 for $30.

[fixrspazz]

I would never spend $300 for A knife, but I fully understand why someone would. I have seen some GORGEOUS knives at outdoor shows. As I slobber over them the salesman/woman says, "Hey, you like that one? Hold it in your hand, see how it feels".....The finely polished surface reflects the lustful intent in my eyes. The light touch of the blade on the back of my hand sends a legion of tiny hairs cascading to the floor.....Ahhhhh!

"I can see you like that one! It fits your hand beautifully! You need a manly hand to wield that tool and YOU, sir, have manly hands!" The sellers voice slips down into an oily croon. "Tell ya what. I'll take another 10% off our 20% show markdown. Seeing as that's...YOUR KNIFE"...

I am mesmerized by this gleaming specimen of the cutler's art. "How much?" I whisper.

" Four sixty eight seventy five, including tax and a nylon holster....."

"GASP! 'Bye! Sorry I touched your stuff...."

Thing is, I would have no trouble laying out $300 for a set of good kitchen knives. A good knife is a joy to work with.

[Valkman]

That's funny, and exactly what happened to me when I came upon a table of Loveless knives at the Blade Show a few years back. Being new to the custom knife game I had no idea what these were worth and asked if I could hold one. I was told yes and as I'm holding it I see the price. Instant heart attack, put knife down and slowly back away.

Now that Bob has left us I realize that price was a bargain (I think it was $3500 for a 4" Hunter) but that was my first experience with really expensive knives. I wish I had a video of my reaction to the price and the fact that I was holding one!

[fixrspazz]

Good idea, valkman. Next time I'll have someone take a picture of me holding a good custom knife!;)

[jbkebert]

I told my friend who is a custom knife maker that I was banned from talking to him after picking up my 11th custom knife last week. Man I need to go on a diet from knives. So what do I end up doing asking him to work me up a price quote for a custom hatchet. My lord I need help.

I will say one thing. Yes true custom knives can get expensive. I used to own a flat ton of production blades. I still own a few but sold most of them at swap meets and garage sales. To me the are worth each and every penny. In increased edge retention, looks, feel, and overall quality.

[Gordon]

" I used to own a flat ton of production blades. I still own a few but sold most of them at swap meets and garage sales."
Interesting! Now I am NOT gonna call a kettle black as I have my neurosis, but that approaches first level 'Hoarding'. Where as a moderate and expensive custom knife collection seems quite refined and urbane. Perhaps there is this 'knives for the masses and knives for the classes' type of thing going on. Tut-tut!

[Pete D.]

Ah, yes.
I told my friend who is a custom knife maker that I was banned from talking to him after picking up my 11th custom knife last week. Man I need to go on a diet from knives. So what do I end up doing asking him to work me up a price quote for a custom hatchet. My lord I need help.

A very clear case of someone suffering from K.A.D (Knife Acquisition Disease, sometimes associated with B.A.D. or Blade Acquisition Disease).
A sad, sad affliction....it has been known to empty pockets with astonishing and inexplicable regularity.
Symptoms are....knives on the belt and in the pockets (tuxedos are no help), the reaching to touch, hold, caress when approaching even one new blade, a metallic glint in the eye, spots devoid of hair on either forearm, increased heart rate, and the thought "I can afford this one".
There is no cure.
You are doomed.
Pete

[jbkebert]

^^^

You could of left me with some hope of recovery.

My wife took my latest knife away from me and wrapped it for under the Christmas tree. I find myself wondering where she hid it so I can mess around with it. I know I am addicted is there at least a program for folks struggling with KAD.

You have to admit its hard not to get all tweaky over things like this.
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/jbkebert/camp2002.jpg

[sixgunner455]

Pete - I simply call that G.A.S., or Gear Acquisition Syndrome, which occasionally, in my case, takes on a sub-form also known as G.A.S., but as Guitar Acquisition Syndrome. Quite a mess all of us have.

jb - your wife is sure giving you a pretty knife for Christmas. :D

[jbkebert]

One of the reasons I have gone to custom knives. Every knife that I buy gets used and not in a nice way. I carry a 3" fixed blade by the same maker as my new one above. I flat beat the hell out of that knife. Everything from cutting boxes,shingels,carpet,linoleum,shims,scraping caulking,marking onyx,marking steel. I will not use my knives as pry bars or screwdrivers but anything else. Your darn right I will.

I used to by gerber and buck and a few kershaws. None could stand up to the abuse I give to a knife. A $40-50 dollar knife was in pretty bad shape within a year. Some of my knives from Harvey i have owned for around three years and still look and perform like the day i bought them. A few of my knives from this maker are reserved for hunting/game processing. I hunt on average 100+ days a year. My family eats alot of game meat and I do all of my own processing. I need a knife that I don't have to touch up the edge every few minutes.

[Gordon]

bingo, we have a winner!:cool:

[jbkebert]

Well my custom hatchet that I ordered came in. http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/jbkebert/harveyaxe055.jpg
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/jbkebert/harveyaxe056.jpg

[sixgunner455]

schweeet!

[mdauben]

Since the local Walmart has a perfectly serviceable knife for $15.00, why would I spend the kind of money it takes to get these?
While I don't think you need to spend $300 for a good knife, I have to say that with the exception of Mora's, I've never seen a knife for less than $20 that wasn't a POS.

A good using knife does not need to be made of the latest particle-fusion-unobtainium steel, but it does need to be made of decent steel (carbon or stainless) which I have never seen in a $15 knife. Just as important, it had to be be well made with decent fit and finish so it is comfortable to use and does not break or wear out prematurely.

I have lots of knives, all users, that ranged in price from $50-150 (with one or two around $200 that are the closest I've ever come to collector's items). In this price range you can find lots of quality knives, both fixed and folders, with nice steel, good edges, robust construction and excellent handling.

[ArfinGreebly]

While I won't imply that the knives represented in the "Inexpensive Valuable Knife List" thread compare with the customs and the up-market pieces, I think the point has been well established in that thread that there are decent knives that will do an honest day's work starting in the $10 range.

I have Opinels that cost me less than $12, and sodbusters starting from $10.

Down in that price range, you have to shop a bit more carefully.

I don't have many knives costing more than a hundred bucks, but I will assure you that you can't buy (retail) the same quality for $25 or $30.

I only have one knife that cost me more than $200.

I would happily pay that again for a knife of that quality.

[Gordon]

My son sent me this email today from aboard some research vessel doing work with remotes at VERY deep depths. When he recieved one of his PHDs a few years back I gave him a Mad Dog DSU 2 knife (Deep Submergence Unit ) which he used as a dive knife, and on the Alvin and now he put it in the robot's mitt!

"HI Dad,
Just a quick note because I'm busy right now. Things are going fine. I deployed
one lander and have the 2nd one almost ready. We sent the DSU2 down on the dive
today because they broke 2 knives yesterday. It cuts amazing! One stroke and the
rope severs. Now the Jason team wants 2 custom ones made with T-handles forged
onto the end. Let Mad Dog know they are interested and that I will give him
video and pictures of it being used. I miss you guys and am looking forward to
being home soon.
Love,
Sam"

So there you have a good reason for a knife over $300 ! :neener:

[Myles]

I've got a early Dawson 101 that I paid the unthinkable sum of $125 for it, 20 years ago.

Seamlessly hand-fitted, flawlessly finished, tough as a crowbar, always razor sharp and easy to maintain the edge.

He still makes them the same way, but they range from $400 and up, now. Sound investment in more ways than one.

[kevin7769]

I recently watched the movie 127 hours about the guy that got trapped between a rock while hiking.. My favorite line is about how he wished he'd spent the extra couple minutes looking for I think it was a Swiss Army knife rather then settling for the Chinese knife he ended up taking with him.. Movie might have had a shorter name if he did. The bulk of my knives are on the cheaper end of better quality, Kershaw Leeks, older Schrades, etc.. But I know with them when it comes down to it they won't fail me for whatever I use it for.. I do have some more expensive stuff, Benchmade is one.. If it comes down to my life depending on my knives, the cheap giveaway stuff I've gotten with purchases of tiewraps, flashlights, etc.. won't be handy for me while any of the better stuff is always handy. One of my favorite expensive ones is a Dunn folder.

[s2harry]

I have an older thin handle spyderco police model favorite of favorites. it cost $60 if i remember right back in the 90s. Working at BB guns for employees 49$ or something. it has a certain kind of robustness but not that robust. maybe these more costly knives have that in the blade pivot I dont know but there is a compromise where strength usefullness sharpness and edge holding come to a dollar ammount and its around 50-75$ it seems. Want to pry puncture and lift with it and now it takes a thicker blade hardened more or better steel etc and that seems to bring the price up more. the rub is Bayonets can pry puncture and lift for less cost. Maybe 70-90$. but like all custom things hand made hand ground etc you pay for shop time and sweat. Plus skill and esthetics. You pays your money you takes your chances. So its up to you really what is your fancy? Me I like sturdy fighting folders and g-10 handles or glass filled like spydercos. Blades I like as close to 4 inch as legal. Or longer for a folding sheath. $300 is just out there in space for me a few dollars more and you've bought a used 642. So for me I wouldnt buy a $300 dollar custom c-6 woopie stainless blade when there are knives just as good for $100 or less just not so custom and may even fit on the end of a rifle.......