Dude carrying a gun in public in VA has an AD that ends in his own death


PDA






rellascout
November 14, 2011, 02:54 PM
http://blogs.fredericksburg.com/newsdesk/2011/11/14/spotsylvania-man-accidentally-fatally-shoots-himself-outside-giant-store/

A Spotsylvania County man died Sunday following a bizarre accident in which he shot him outside a county Giant store, police said.

The 45-year-old man, whose name had not been released as of Monday morning, was at the store in Harrison Crossing with his wife and children shortly before 5 p.m. He had parked in the fire lane to allow his wife to return a DVD to a box outside the store.

Sheriff’s Capt. Liz Scott said the victim was in the driver’s seat of a minivan when he apparently went to unbuckle his seat belt and hit the trigger of a Glock 40-caliber handgun. A bullet was fired into the victim’s hip.

I wonder if it was even in a holster and if it was what kind of holster? I wonder if that holster covered the trigger?

If you enjoyed reading about "Dude carrying a gun in public in VA has an AD that ends in his own death" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Loosedhorse
November 14, 2011, 02:56 PM
I'm sure we'll hear some details in the lawsuit that's bound to follow. RIP :(

CoRoMo
November 14, 2011, 03:08 PM
Absolutely terrible. A wife loses her husband and her children lost their father.

JERRY
November 14, 2011, 03:10 PM
a descent holster is nothing to sneeze at.

JohnBT
November 14, 2011, 04:11 PM
I just read 14 articles I googled up.

Where does it say he had a carry permit? His wife said he carried a gun sometimes.

JT

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 04:30 PM
Where does it say he had a carry permit? His wife said he carried a gun sometimes.



You are correct that it does not state he had a permit in the article but I was told the he had a permit to carry by a reporter I know at the FLS and honestly why does it matter?

GBExpat
November 14, 2011, 05:27 PM
... and honestly why does it matter?

Not trying to put words in JohnBT's mouth, but for one reason that should be obvious to you, you specified in the @SUBJ that he had a VA CHP.

TriTone
November 14, 2011, 05:29 PM
Who would the lawsuit be against? He's deceased...

JERRY
November 14, 2011, 05:46 PM
another strike against hip grip, belt clip et cetera type ways of "mexican carry" for a gun.
of course trigger finger discipline is paramount, but even that is subjected to failure when you have to use your trigger finger to do something other than work the trigger like with a serpa holster.

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 05:53 PM
Not trying to put words in JohnBT's mouth, but for one reason that should be obvious to you, you specified in the @SUBJ that he had a VA CHP.

So I will change the title to read dude in VA who occasionally carries a gun... kills himself with a ND in VA.

Is that better?

And again what does it matter in a shall issue state like VA where you can take a 3 hour course with no live firing requirement and get a CHP. He could have been open carrying which is also legal in VA but does it really change the story?

We like to crow every time any paper anywhere in the US publishes a report of someone carrying in public uses a gun to protect himself I personally think just as much attention and scrutiny needs to be placed on accidents such as this. Clearly this individual was carrying and handling a gun in a in proper manner. He ended up killing himself but could have just as easily killed one of his kids in the car.

I personally would like to know more details so that this can be a real life lesson to others who choose to carry a gun.

GBExpat
November 14, 2011, 06:02 PM
{plonk}

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 06:06 PM
Have a bad day?

This is the kind of incident that Antis will be happy to try to use to their advantage ... especially if he did have a CHP.

I am having a great day. Thanks for asking.

CHP or no CHP does not change the issue that this person with a gun clearly was not competent to do so.

Again in a shall issue open carry state like VA it does not really matter if he had a CHP or not. If he didn't how does it change the context or the reality of the event. Antis- are going to flex their opinion either way because in the reality a dude died needlessly. Circling the wagons and not treating this as a learning point at the very least is ignorant IMHO. Too often what the pro-gun community does exactly that. Oh it wasn't one of "us" so don't hold us accountable. Is that the tact you are attempting to take?

SharpsDressedMan
November 14, 2011, 06:10 PM
Where are we at here? Are we going to blame the gun, or the person handling it?

RobSitka
November 14, 2011, 06:10 PM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 06:11 PM
Where are we at here? Are we going to blame the gun, or the person handling it?

I blame the dude carrying the gun. He clearly did not know how to properly do so and put his family and everyone around him at risk. Completely and totally irresponsible in my book.

JohnBT
November 14, 2011, 06:11 PM
"And again what does it matter"

Other than for the sake of accuracy, I was looking at the story from the point of view of an anti making an argument against carry permits.

I mostly found it strange that they hadn't reported any details, but somebody knew he had a carry permit.

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 06:13 PM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round.

I am not sure about that. How about get a proper holster and some proper training. There is nothing unsafe about a Glock carried with a round in the chamber unless it is in untrained hands.

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 06:15 PM
Other than for the sake of accuracy, I was looking at the story from the point of view of an anti making an argument against carry permits.

I mostly found it strange that they hadn't reported any details, but somebody knew he had a carry permit.

I used to live in Fredericksburg. I know a lot of people who work at the FLS. That is what I was told by an individual there who would know. I expected more details in the article and since it was lacking asked a friend. If it turns out to not be the case I will post it here first. LOL

Again in a state where it is legal to open carry a firearm I am not sure that it will make a difference to the antis if he had a permit or not.

JohnBT
November 14, 2011, 06:19 PM
Ch.6 WTVR here just reported it was a .40 Glock fwiw.

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 06:20 PM
Ch.6 WTVR here just reported it was a .40 Glock fwiw.

That was in the FLS article.

Sheriff’s Capt. Liz Scott said the victim was in the driver’s seat of a minivan when he apparently went to unbuckle his seat belt and hit the trigger of a Glock 40-caliber handgun. A bullet was fired into the victim’s hip.

Just pointing it out for the sake of accuracy... :cool:

Loosedhorse
November 14, 2011, 06:21 PM
Who would the lawsuit be against? He's deceased... The lawsuit would be against Glock, filed by his NOK/estate. Defective product with damages (loss of life) resulting.

If plaintiff's atty needs any expert testimony, he can just go to any internet gun board. Everyone knows that there are too many ADs (yes, AD, the atty will insist) with Glocks--worse, they can go kaBOOM!

I wonder if Glock will fight the grieving survivors, or settle quietly? :scrutiny:

ATBackPackin
November 14, 2011, 06:26 PM
Truly a sad day for the family and I wish them all the best.

If it happened the way they sheriff described then I would have to imagine that he was not carrying in a safe or proper manner. A big mistake for sure if you decide to carry a gun, but a mistake that he shouldn't have had to pay with his life.

Truly sad.
Shawn

ny32182
November 14, 2011, 06:28 PM
Unfortunately, it sounds like the guy simply "Plaxicoed" himself. It wasn't the first, and won't be the last time. A lot of people who shouldn't handle potentially dangerous objects do so. Is there anything that can be learned from this one that can't be learned from the others?

45_auto
November 14, 2011, 06:31 PM
If plaintiff's atty needs any expert testimony, he can just go to any internet gun board.

LMAO!!!! This is easily the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum!

If it's posted on the internet, it must be true!

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 06:31 PM
Unfortunately, it sounds like the guy simply "Plaxicoed" himself. It wasn't the first, and won't be the last time. A lot of people who shouldn't handle potentially dangerous objects do so. Is there anything that can be learned from this one that can't be learned from the others?

That is what it sounds like to me too. I would really love to know if he had it in a holster.

It amazes me that anyone would carry a Glock in a pocket with no holster. Even with a pocket holster I wouldn't do it. I will only carry a Glock on my waist.

ny32182
November 14, 2011, 06:32 PM
Defective product with damages (loss of life) resulting.

On the contrary the product likely performed exactly as designed and would fall under frivolous lawsuit category that was, I believe, passed under the previous administration.

rellascout
November 14, 2011, 06:33 PM
On the contrary the product likely performed exactly as designed and would fall under frivolous lawsuit category that was, I believe, passed under the previous administration.

I agree unfortunately for this guy the product worked as designed.

Bobson
November 14, 2011, 06:35 PM
I wonder if anyyone has compiled statistics to determine which brand and model firearm is most often used in these situations.Expect any study on the topic to produce skewed results. More popular brands are likely to be higher in AD/ND numbers, because there are so many more of those weapons being used.

For example, I'd expect Glock to be #1 in ND/AD numbers, considering the massive number of Glocks being carried in the US (figure the number of LE agencies issuing Glocks, not to mention civilian owners). That being said, I find Glocks to be extremely safe weapons.

allaroundhunter
November 14, 2011, 06:40 PM
More popular brands are likely to be higher in AD/ND numbers, because there are so many more of those weapons being used.

While I tend to agree with this, how often do you hear about a AD/ND with a Sig? They are very widely used in LE and I don't know the last time when I heard about an AD/ND with one....

It is the relatively light trigger pull of the Glock when compared to the first, heavy DA pull on the Sig (and other DA/SA) weapons that makes the difference.

JohnBT
November 14, 2011, 06:42 PM
I should have read the rest of the WTVR report.

"The family friend said..." the guy probably just had it loose in his pocket.

msparks
November 14, 2011, 09:14 PM
What a sad thing to hear / read about. Prayers going out to his family.

If you are reading this and don't carry your gun in a proper holster your wrong.

Be safe.

basicblur
November 14, 2011, 09:46 PM
There is nothing unsafe about a Glock carried with a round in the chamber unless it is in untrained hands.
I guess we better define "untrained"? :D
Retired Va. police officer's gun discharges in restaurant, 3 injured. (http://www.timesnews.net/article/9016512/retired-va-police-officer39s-gun-discharges-in-restaurant-3-injured)

And now for the rest of the story...
Local gun shop boyz also on the Rescue Squad answered the call, and here's their info:
1. It was a Glock
2. He was Mexican carrying
3. Got up from the table and reached down to cinch his pants... :uhoh:
4. He had been warned by the boyz at the gun shop he shouldn't be Mexican carrying a Glock
5. At one time, he was an instructor for the local PD (don't know if this was pre-retirement, after retirement, or both?)

SharpsDressedMan
November 14, 2011, 09:57 PM
Why do some people feel that if a Glock goes off when you put your finger (or object) in the trigger guard, and tug, that it is somehow defective, and Glock needs to be sued? :confused:

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 14, 2011, 10:54 PM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.

Simple and better solution, carry with a good holster and be smart about it. Carrying unchambered is no excuse for poor handling.

Why do some people feel that if a Glock goes off when you put your finger (or object) in the trigger guard, and tug, that it is somehow defective, and Glock needs to be sued?

Ignorance or not knowing how the gun works. When the gun was fired, how did it hit to mortally hit him?

bobmcd
November 14, 2011, 11:04 PM
how did it hit to mortally hit him?

Femoral artery is likely. Very difficult to stop the bleeding.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 14, 2011, 11:05 PM
Thats what I was thinking, must have been at the 1-2 o'clock position.

jmstevens2
November 14, 2011, 11:25 PM
Yea, the femoral is not exactly on his hip. It runs pretty much medial along the femur fairly peripheral. Not exactly where the buckle is, It had to be in the pocket, my guess is it traversed across to the left leg and took out that femoral Maybe something else too on the way. Assuming it was in the right pocket. I don't know of a drivers seat with the buckle on the left. Think about it, to be comfortable it was likely aligned with the "crease" created at your hip when you sit. If it was parallel to the leg in the pocket, it would have gone toward the knee, not the hip.

But that is just a guess from what has been said.

NOLAEMT
November 14, 2011, 11:40 PM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.
how is that at all a solution?

Please find any respected, defensive firearms trainer that teaches to keep a defensive firearm unloaded? Or any police agency for that matter?

On a more serious note, even without a direct hit to the femoral artery, it is still very possible to die rapidly from a shot to the pelvis. When hit by a bullet, the pelvis can fracture, and a fractured pelvis is very unstable, unable to support itself or keep its shape. Any movement after that (like might happen after realizing you have just been shot) can cause movement of the fragmented pieces of bone and these fragments can easily lacerate artieries and veins inside the pelvis.

Tallinar
November 14, 2011, 11:44 PM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.

I dunno. I carry my gun with *gasp* SIX rounds chambered, and I haven't had any issues yet. As has already been stated, most folks carry with rounds chambered. The gun isn't exactly ready to save your life if there's no round chambered.

Sad story. Feel bad for the family.

W.E.G.
November 15, 2011, 12:21 AM
"pocket carry" anybody?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/crime-scene/post/spotsylvania-man-inadvertently-shoots-self-in-giant-parking-lot/2011/11/14/gIQASJKxLN_blog.html

Capt. Elizabeth Scott, the public information officer for the Spotsylvania County Sheriff’s Office....said the incident should serve as a reminder to gun owners to properly holster their weapons.

“If you’re going to be carrying a weapon, know your weapon and know that it should always be in a holster,” she said. “A good holster, you’re not going to be able to accidentally hit the trigger.

HammerheadSSN663
November 15, 2011, 12:22 AM
this news bums me out. some kid lost their dad right in front of them.

rondog
November 15, 2011, 12:28 AM
I remember a story about a local officer shooting himself with his Glock. He was holstering it and the hem of his jacket got in the trigger guard as he holstered it, shooting him in the leg.

I've never fired a Glock, don't think I've ever even handled one. But they don't have a safety, do they? Other than that trigger-lever thing? And is it even possible to de-cock a loaded Glock? Once charged, are they hot all the time?

W.E.G.
November 15, 2011, 12:34 AM
The Glock has the same "safety" as a Smith and Wesson revolver.

The Glock is "hot all the time" in the same way as a Smith and Wesson revolver.

In each instance, you fire the weapon by simply pulling the trigger.
In each instance, neither weapon will fire UNLESS you pull the trigger.

Folks have been having ND's since the first Chinese chemist figured out how to make gunpowder.
No matter how many locks and switches you put on a gun, people will still find a way to fire it when they shouldn't.

HorseSoldier
November 15, 2011, 12:43 AM
The lawsuit would be against Glock, filed by his NOK/estate. Defective product with damages (loss of life) resulting.

I can see this getting some traction. I think the "Glocks are dangerous because they don't have a safety" meme is prevalent enough that it might resonate with a layperson, including the right/wrong judge. I'm pretty sure the only reason there hasn't been an "innocent killed by Glock ND" storyline on one of the Law and Order franchises or similar is that the network would get sued by the company even though it's a torn-from-the-headlines kind of story.

If plaintiff's atty needs any expert testimony, he can just go to any internet gun board. Everyone knows that there are too many ADs (yes, AD, the atty will insist) with Glocks--worse, they can go kaBOOM!

I bet that DEA agent who was the only guy professional enough in the room to carry a Glock 40 is looking for work and some expert witness testimony would help him pay the mortgage.

Yea, the femoral is not exactly on his hip. It runs pretty much medial along the femur fairly peripheral. Not exactly where the buckle is, It had to be in the pocket, my guess is it traversed across to the left leg and took out that femoral Maybe something else too on the way. Assuming it was in the right pocket. I don't know of a drivers seat with the buckle on the left. Think about it, to be comfortable it was likely aligned with the "crease" created at your hip when you sit. If it was parallel to the leg in the pocket, it would have gone toward the knee, not the hip.

Or at that range, it could have been a most any position where a discharge resulted in a broken femur that then contracted and severed the femoral artery. Less likely, but possible, and a 40 round at contact shooting range will definitely break a femur.

chhodge69
November 15, 2011, 12:47 AM
Clearly this individual was carrying and handling a gun in a in proper manner

um... I don't think so. With all due respect to the deceased, you cannot make any gun idiot proof. Safeties don't make them safe. It's not hard to imagine how getting into and out of a drivers seat could defeat even a good holster. You have to keep your primary safety engaged 24-7... the one between your ears. And a thumb break helps too, but thats a personal preference.

GLOOB
November 15, 2011, 01:03 AM
^Dude. I think he agrees with you. I'm reading in proper as improper. :)

I know 99.9% of people disagree, but carrying a gun pointed at my hip, femoral artery, and/or junk makes me nervous, even with a holster. After all, at some point the gun is intended to come out of that holster in a hurry. I'd hate to Tex Grebner myself somewhere even worse than the leg.

It's easy for me to keep the gun pointed away from me while holstering, carrying, and drawing, whether OC or CC. So that's what I do.

5. At one time, he was an instructor for the local PD (don't know if this was pre-retirement, after retirement, or both?)
This is why they should remove the 8+ hrs of classes/training required in some shall issue states and replace it 20 minutes of instruction and a test of basic cognitive function, logic, and problem solving. Anybody with the free time and $150 can get certified to be a firearms instructor. And learning/memorizing is very different from understanding and doing.

I bet that DEA agent who was the only guy professional enough in the room to carry a Glock 40 is looking for work and some expert witness testimony would help him pay the mortgage.
LOL. Thanks for the laugh. I'm sure there are plenty of people that are experts at accidentally hurting themselves that would like to get paid for their testimony. The opposing lawyer would have a field day.:)

Inebriated
November 15, 2011, 01:19 AM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.

That's not a solution, that is a work-around. A solution would be using a better method to carry.

12131
November 15, 2011, 01:40 AM
Damn, sad. Must have hit the femoral artery.:(

KungFuNerd
November 15, 2011, 02:01 AM
Tell you what...I tried Appendix carry. ONCE.
I was using a good holster and everything but it was aiming RIGHT at my Femoral Artery.

You wouldn't wear a "Hat Holster" that pointed the gun at your Temple would you?

When I read this article I immediately thought 'Glock 27 Mexican carry'

doc2rn
November 15, 2011, 02:35 AM
I am the only person in the room with the training to be able to Handle a Glock-Fotay!
(shoots self in foot)
Any design that makes you pull the trigger to separate upper and lower receivers, goes Kaboom, and doesnt have a safety off the trigger just isnt a good design for everyday carry! Too many people bought Glock Kool-Aid!
This is a terrible yet preventable incident. My deepest condolences to the family.

Diggers
November 15, 2011, 03:06 AM
Sad situation,
so lets make it useful to us.

How did this happen?

From what I've read here:

He had a loaded, chambered pistol on his person NOT carried in a holster.

Unclear as to where it was on his person BUT it was supposedly discharged while attempting to unlatch the seat belt....

So wast appendix carry? Pocket carry? Jacket pocket carry? What ever the location the gun was lined up with his femoral artery when the ND happened.

It seems the gun NOT being in a holster covering the trigger played a MAJOR roll in this death. Carrying a gun in other locations on his person other than wast at 3,4,5 or 6 o'clock is a less significant secondary issue.

When I have a gun in a holster on my belt, it is almost, almost, impossible to shoot myself OR another person with an ND. I would have to bend in an unusual way to accomplish that.

So, always use a holster AND perhaps we all should be more aware of where the barrel is pointing from our preferred carry method as well and make adjustments if needed.

Inebriated
November 15, 2011, 06:17 AM
The Glock has the same "safety" as a Smith and Wesson revolver.

The Glock is "hot all the time" in the same way as a Smith and Wesson revolver.

In each instance, you fire the weapon by simply pulling the trigger.
In each instance, neither weapon will fire UNLESS you pull the trigger.

Folks have been having ND's since the first Chinese chemist figured out how to make gunpowder.
No matter how many locks and switches you put on a gun, people will still find a way to fire it when they shouldn't.

One could very easily argue that a S&W trigger is considerably heavier than a Glock's, and is therefore a lower risk to carry.

I think every thing should be in a proper holster, and there's no way around that, but all things being equal, the heavier DA trigger could have saved him.

two gun charlie
November 15, 2011, 06:52 AM
funny how everytime I read or hear about these events it's always a glock ?! and I seem to hear about it quite often lately.

Lex Luthier
November 15, 2011, 08:43 AM
Sad, and prayers for his family. The guy was an idiot for taking those kind of chances. Maybe his kids will grow up and be smarter than him.

msparks
November 15, 2011, 08:52 AM
I carry a Glock 26 appendix most of the time. I use a MIC holster. From what I see, there is no possible way for the trigger to get squeezed. I call it a trigger condom for good reason.

Loosedhorse
November 15, 2011, 09:16 AM
I bet that DEA agent who was the only guy professional enough in the room to carry a Glock 40 is looking for work and some expert witness testimony would help him pay the mortgage. You know, I use that video every time I teach a safety class. Every time. There is nothing better, IMHO, to drive the point home.

I guess I should look up Lee Paige's address, and send him a few bucks...:o

JohnBT
November 15, 2011, 11:08 AM
"The Glock has the same "safety" as a Smith and Wesson revolver."

The difference is that Glock proudly and regularly advertises that their gun has a safety. I can see where some folks might be lulled into a false sense of safety knowing their gun has a safety (or multiple safeties.)

Not us of course, and we know modern Smiths don't have a safety.

SSN Vet
November 15, 2011, 12:10 PM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.

but then there's the day your forget you have one chambered

I personally chose pistols with a manual safety.... but then these can inadvertently get swiped off.

In the final analysis, there is no substitute for diligence.

A man's got to know his limitations!

If you tend towards absent mindedness, or operate in an environment with non-stop interruptions and redirections of your attention, then prudence would suggest some add'l measures to serve as a back up, in case you make a mistake.

Anyone can make a mistake with a handgun. But there are things we can do to make the consequences of that mistake less disastrous. And what works for you in your situation, may not work for somebody else in different circumstances.

Bottom line is that no measure of nanny state regulations and ambulance chasing lawyers will prevent you from ultimately reaping what you sew.

If you choose to carry.... YOU, and you alone, HAVE TO be responsible for your actions and take any and all measures needed to ensure you do so safely.

I feel bad for the guys wife and kids. He was probably one of the "good guys" and cared enough for his family to take measures to provide for their protection.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 15, 2011, 12:33 PM
Any design that makes you pull the trigger to separate upper and lower receivers, goes Kaboom, and doesnt have a safety off the trigger just isnt a good design for everyday carry! Too many people bought Glock Kool-Aid!
This is a terrible yet preventable incident. My deepest condolences to the family.

That has nothing to do with carry. Be smart about your gun and you'll be fine. It isn't that difficult to drop mag, unchamber and check three times, close slide and pull the trigger. It gets fired in those instances because a round is in the chamber, not a design flaw.

Owen Sparks
November 15, 2011, 01:06 PM
A friend was wearing a windbreaker with a drawstring in the waist. He was re-holstering his Glock behind the hip and snagged the trigger guard on the little plastic thing on the end of the drawstring, it discharged KILLING the guy behind him. Sure it was mostly his fault for not minding where the muzzle was pointed, yet his trigger finger was straight and out of the trigger guard when it happened. This guy was not a beginner but an Army veteran and a competitive shooter. The man killed was sitting directly behind him and was hit low in the body and bled to death.

BTW: Compairing a Glocks trigger to that of a DA revolver is only relivant if the revolver is COCKED!

yeahbuddy
November 15, 2011, 02:14 PM
funny how everytime I read or hear about these events it's always a glock ?! and I seem to hear about it quite often lately.
But how much of that has to do with Glocks being popular? They have sold quite a lot of them. Because of brand recognition in the general public, they might even be more likely to be purchased as first time hand guns by noobs (I don't know, just a possibility). What do you guys think?

I think we can all agree that a gun needs a holster if it is going to be carried.

brickeyee
November 15, 2011, 03:48 PM
Damn, sad. Must have hit the femoral artery.

Sure sounds like it.

And at that range even a blank might have done enough damage.

The human body does not cope with 30,000+ PSI gases well, and it can do a huge amount of damage all by itself.

Regretfully some mistakes are lethal.

Hopefully the family can continue hang together

Shawn Dodson
November 15, 2011, 04:06 PM
Lots of speculation. Major arteries of the body...

http://www.celebritysentry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/1298753711-17.gif

Boo-Radley
November 15, 2011, 04:21 PM
He should have had an empty chamber, and the safety on. I carry the hammer over a live chamber on my 29-2, but it is virtually impossible for that revolver to go off accidentally. On a semi-auto I would never chamber a round until it's time to fire.

allaroundhunter
November 15, 2011, 04:24 PM
On a semi-auto I would never chamber a round until it's time to fire

And for those who have had to draw and/or use their CCW (semi) for self defense, they will tell you that the BG will not come up to you and give you an advance warning that he is going to hurt you. You will not have time to rack the slide in an SD situation. Because you are uncomfortable with keeping a semi on your person with a loaded chamber, it is probably for the best that you carry a wheelgun.

Keep one in the chamber, keep you finger out of the trigger guard, and keep your brain working.


And Boo.....Glocks don't have manual safeties. Though the gun was accidentally discharged, the circumstances that led up to it make it a negligent discharge.

Skribs
November 15, 2011, 04:34 PM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.

I have all of my handguns with a round in the chamber. That way I never wonder "is there a round in the chamber?" No manual safety, either, so I never have to wonder if the safety is on or off. My handguns are hot at all times (except the obvious, cleaning, cleared for showing, or between magazines). Therefore, I have no surprises.

45_auto
November 15, 2011, 04:45 PM
funny how everytime I read or hear about these events it's always a glock ?

Probably because most of the time the type of weapon is NOT reported so you don't hear about it.

However, the Glock trigger safety (as well as the "undetectable" by metal detector characteristics) has been controversial with uninformed shooters and reporters since their introduction. So any time an incident happens with a Glock it tends to get visibility in the press and on the internet.

For instance, I don't remember much fanfare over this pink pistol shooting (I don't believe Glock makes a pink .380):

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2011/08/joshua_seto_was_under_influenc.php

Or much fanfare over some Marine AD's a year or so ago (do the marines use Glocks?):

http://www.marines.mil/unit/safety/Documents/Neg_Discharges_Jan_2010.pdf

I don't believe Glock makes many shotguns:

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/north_phoenix/pd%3A-teen-seriously-injured-in-accidental-shooting-in-phoenix

Maybe you think Glock makes hunting rifles now:

http://crime.blogs.tuscaloosanews.com/10660/woman-dies-after-accidental-shooting/

These accidental shootings never named the type of handgun, I don't remember much discussion on any of them:

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-accidental-shooting-brings-family-together-20111110,0,6166185.story

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/1-injured-in-accidental-shooting-in-north-Houston-2260880.php

http://mynorthwest.com/11/560284/Man-arrested-for-accidentally-shooting-friend-from-back-seat

All these were the result of about 10 seconds spent on Google.

TexasRifleman
November 15, 2011, 05:37 PM
funny how everytime I read or hear about these events it's always a glock ?

Well let's be honest here, Glocks sell like hotcakes. Have to be by far the most popular gun sold for both civilian and LE use. If there are more Glocks it's only natural there will be more stories about Glocks.

Can't read much into that.

W.E.G.
November 15, 2011, 05:43 PM
Whoa... there's a "gonadial" artery.

ReloaderEd
November 15, 2011, 07:17 PM
Murphy's law says if it can't happen it will no matter what precautions are taken by mankind to prevent accidents of any kind. you can put all the safety devices plus custom safeties on a firearm and someone somewhere will inadvertently hurt or kill themselves when the perfect set of circumstances come together with 1 in a million odds. Breaking down the event and finding out exactly what and how the seatbelt inadvertently pulled the Glock (in this case a Glock) trigger would be good for all gun toters to know and understand to preclude further deaths.
Is Glock responsible for the accident? Thats sort of like saying the people that issued the concealed carry permit or carry permit are responsible for the guy killing himself. Now I know in this day and age, anyone with deep pockets can be sued because of someones stupidity. Sometimes folks, a person just has to take responsibility for their own thoughless butterfingered actions prior to yes inadvertently killing themselfs and leaving their families in this case without a Father.
In Oklahoma several years ago we had a young husband and Father, on the 4th of July, fire a home made cannon made out of PVC Pipe. It blew up killing him. Who is going to get sued for that? Just food for thought. Be Safe

45_auto
November 15, 2011, 07:35 PM
Seems pretty simple to me.

If you don't trust yourself enough to competently and safely operate the Glock trigger system, don't carry one. Same thing with carrying a 1911 cocked and locked.

If you think you're competent but you're really not, don't be surprised when Darwin comes to call ......

gym
November 15, 2011, 08:35 PM
It's called an accident, a fatal accident. They happen every day, people fall and break their necks, drive off a clff, drown, houses go up in flames, it's unfortunate, but that's what it is. He took his mind off what he was doing and caused a fatal accident that took his life. I see no lawsuit here.

Jolly Rogers
November 15, 2011, 08:44 PM
If you don't trust yourself enough to competently and safely operate the Glock trigger system, don't carry one. Same thing with carrying a 1911 cocked and locked.

If the deceased had been carrying a cocked and locked 1911 there wouldn't have been a fatality. There would have had to be 3 separate actions to have a discharge.
Don't and won't own a Glock.
Joe

45_auto
November 15, 2011, 08:47 PM
If the deceased had been carrying a cocked and locked 1911 there wouldn't have been a fatality. There would have had to be 3 separate actions to have a discharge.

Good point. You're right, no one has ever had an ND with a 1911 and shot their self in the leg ..... :)

(The guy in the link below would probably disagree with you. He was luckier than the guy wwith the Glock, though.)

http://negligentdischarge.com/leg.html

blue_ridge
November 15, 2011, 08:51 PM
How do you even do that? I ALWAYS use a holster, and I grew out of Glocks about 10 years ago, so it's a moot point to begin with. But, how can you put a glock in your pocket or mexican carry at such an angle that it is pointed at your hip?

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 15, 2011, 09:02 PM
Well let's be honest here, Glocks sell like hotcakes. Have to be by far the most popular gun sold for both civilian and LE use. If there are more Glocks it's only natural there will be more stories about Glocks.

Can't read much into that.

Not to mention the fact that Glock is a name for any handgun in the journalist.

Good point. Nobody has ever had an ND with a 1911 .....

Can't tell if ignorance or sarcasm. People has shot 1911s without meaning to for years. If this particular guy was carrying a 1911 though, it wouldn't have fired if carried C/L. Thats still no excuse for not getting a good holster.

How do you even do that? I ALWAYS use a holster, so it's a moot point to begin with. But, how can you put a glock in your pocket at such an angle that it is pointed at your hip?

The gun gets pressed flat against your leg pointing down it but no directly at it.

blue_ridge
November 15, 2011, 09:07 PM
Can't tell if ignorance or sarcasm. People has shot 1911s without meaning to for years. If this particular guy was carrying a 1911 though, it wouldn't have fired if carried C/L. Thats still no excuse for not getting a good holster.

Okay, but let's be honest here. A Glock takes one movement against the trigger to fire. 1911 takes three. 1) Disable safety. 2) get firm grip against the handle. 3) Pull trigger. It would be a tad bit more difficult to make a 1911 go bang accidentally. Every gun goes bang if no precatuions are taken. But if you decide to carry a Glock without a holster, you're one sliver of action away from an accidental shooting. 1911's require two deliberate actions before pulling the trigger makes anything happen.

and with practice, those three actions of the 1911 can all be done in one swift move from the holster. no surprise the 1911 is still going strong 100 years later.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 15, 2011, 09:09 PM
That is true and I did basically point that out, doesn't change the fact that he wasn't carrying in a smart fashion.

45_auto
November 15, 2011, 09:17 PM
No one knows what really happened except the guy who died. No one else was in the car or saw the incident. If I had just shot myself in my car, I would probably be like him and claim that I was trying to unbuckle a seat belt too.

Sheriff’s Capt. Liz Scott said the victim was in the driver’s seat of a minivan when he apparently went to unbuckle his seat belt and hit the trigger of a Glock 40-caliber handgun.

Pyro
November 15, 2011, 09:37 PM
Another reason why I like handguns with a trigger block safety.

rellascout
November 15, 2011, 09:38 PM
Honestly I love all the excuses being posting in this thread... the bottom line is that this guy was carrying a Glock in an unsafe manner. He was either ignorant of the danger or simply chose to ignore it.

Carrying a Glock in the pocket without a proper pocket holster is ignorant period end of discussion.

The real question is how can we as the educated shooting community help to educate those who are a bit behind the learning curve. This accident/negligent discharge could have been avoided and we as the educated shooting community need to work together to make this happen!

If we do not work to educate people more people will kill themselves as the number of concealed carry holders grows. IMHO this is a real problem that is staring us in the face as we grow our community.

blue_ridge
November 15, 2011, 09:44 PM
You ever notice how every Hollywood movie and TV show has two methods of carry? Shoulder holster and mexican carry, A lot of the ignorant among us probably see those two options first and foremost.

orionengnr
November 15, 2011, 10:13 PM
He should have had an empty chamber, and the safety on.
Please explain how to put "the safety on" while using a Glock.
As far as the empty chamber goes, that has been addressed in this thread.
If you want to carry an unloaded gun, that is your perogative.
But recommending it to everyone does not place you in a good light, or help your credibility.

blue_ridge
November 15, 2011, 10:21 PM
Yep, with an unloaded gun and the safety on, you might be better off just carrying some nice round rocks. you'll have a better chance of saving a life with the chuck and duck approach.

rellascout
November 15, 2011, 10:28 PM
Please explain how to put "the safety on" while using a Glock.
As far as the empty chamber goes, that has been addressed in this thread.
If you want to carry an unloaded gun, that is your perogative.
But recommending it to everyone does not place you in a good light, or help your credibility.

Yep, with an unloaded gun and the safety on, you might be better off just carrying some nice round rocks. you'll have a better chance of saving a life with the chuck and duck approach.

So missing the mark IMHO.... its not about chamber loaded or not its about education. Its about helping other people not make the same mistake.

Focus people please focus.

gym
November 16, 2011, 12:49 AM
I carry a glock along with a lcp, the glock may have varied but has been a fixture since 1995. I also have a best friend ,"retired Marine" who carries a 27. mine is a 26. He doesn't keep one in the chamber, I do.I found the trigger block to be a very useful aid. It pops out easily, ican tap it out I have had it so long, but it prevents anything from getting in between the trigger and the trigger gaurd, like a string etc. It's cheap, and it works. I am still very aware once the pistol moves above the trigger, but maybe a few of you might want to try it, it's a ten dollar investmant that can come in handy.

Birch Knoll
November 16, 2011, 01:02 AM
He should have had an empty chamberMight as well have left the gun home in that case.

and the safety on.Have you ever tried to engage the safety on a Glock? It takes FOREVER to find the lever. I still haven't found it on my G23, and I've been looking for 17 years!

RNB65
November 16, 2011, 01:14 AM
As our friend Tex explains, even a manual safety, a quality holster, and lots of firearms handling experience doesn't guarantee you won't accidently shoot yourself. Sometimes, **** just happens. AKA, Murphy's Law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature=related

SSN Vet
November 16, 2011, 10:30 AM
... the bottom line is that this guy was carrying a Glock in an unsafe manner. He was either ignorant of the danger or simply chose to ignore it.

The real question is how can we as the educated shooting community help to educate those who are a bit behind the learning curve.

Didn't somebody report earlier in the thread that the guy had been a firearms instructor?

It seems that there is a unhealthy risk for "experts" to develop a mindset in which the "basic safety rules" no longer apply to them.

I was once taught that when working with power tools, you need to always have a healthy fear/respect for their capacity to hurt you.

I consider firearms to be extremely powerful tools.

TexasRifleman
November 16, 2011, 10:58 AM
He should have had an empty chamber

I know a lot of people get upset when they see this, but for a person carrying without a holster, with no way to protect the trigger, this is probably the best way to carry the thing.

Practice racking the slide as it comes out of the pocket. Yes it's slow, but if one insists on not using a holster, it's the best way to go.

steven58
November 16, 2011, 12:45 PM
A Glock with a round chambered must be carried not just is a holster but in a rigid Glock specific for that model holster. I seem to remember reading about a gentleman who NDd a Glock by using a soft leather holster for a "similar" gun. The soft leather pinched by the seatbelt pushed into the trigger guard discharging the pistol into the car floor.

gym
November 16, 2011, 01:08 PM
I believe the Israilis carry that way, unchambered. They practice racking the slide as the wepon is brought to the firing position.
I'm suprised that no one has come up with a snap off device more reliable than the trigger block, I did a search and looked at a dozen different mods, none I would use other than the block. At night I put my gun in a holster in the dark, because my wife is already asleep, I have been doing it so long that the trigger block has made it easier not to worry about it catching on the holster, "even though anthing is possible", if you check it every time you remove the weapon it will work better than nothing. Also you just have to be anal with glocks, people get too comfortble and forget how easily that trigger will fire.

JohnBT
November 16, 2011, 02:57 PM
"No one knows what really happened except the guy who died."

I read one article early this morning while searching for updated info that said a police officer who was on the scene said the gun was found on the floor.

I suppose I've been thinking it went off in his pocket.

John

TwoWheelFiend
November 16, 2011, 05:47 PM
He put his finger on the trigger and it went off, what is the mystery? He broke rule #1

And not putting a round in the chamber of a carry gun is like not putting gas in your car

Complacency breeds carelessness

wise words

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 16, 2011, 05:52 PM
I read one article early this morning while searching for updated info that said a police officer who was on the scene said the gun was found on the floor.

I suppose I've been thinking it went off in his pocket.

He didn't die instantly, he could have yanked it out because of the pain and threw it on the floor. I doubt he was pocket carrying, when a flat gun is in your pocket like a Glock, it points along your leg but not at it. Plus Glocks are pretty chunky to carry in a pocket.

He put his finger on the trigger and it went off, what is the mystery? He broke rule #1

So only your finger can pull the trigger? He was carrying without a holster, things can easily get in the trigger guard like a shirt tail and then when you move, trigger gets pulled.

TwoWheelFiend
November 16, 2011, 05:55 PM
How does a shirt tail get through a trigger gaurd, If a gun is in your pants, i cant think of many things that can get in the trigger gaurd...... do you have a lot of stuff between your pants and your undies?

outdoorsman1
November 16, 2011, 06:33 PM
My sincere prayers are for his family, his loved ones, his soul, and most of all for his children. May God watch over his children for in having to witness what happened, they are gonna need him...

Ok... My open carry firearm is a Springfield Armory XD-40 choosen specifically for the "Grip Saftey" feature as well as the double trigger safety... BOTH have to be engaged before the firearm will discharge.

That being said, I also sometimes conceal (sometimes open) carry a Glock 27 Gen. 4. When concealing the Glock I use a Graco IWB holster on my right side @ about 2 o'clock (personal reasons) angled slightly so the barrel is facing down and back. When open carrying I use an OWB holster on my right hip at about 3 o'clock.

I will admit that the XD with the added saftey feature does offer a little more comfortability factor than the Glock, but as others have said... It is not the firearm it is the person carrying the firearm that makes all the difference in safe vrs non-safe handling... and in that, I have confidence in my knowledge of the safe handling of any firearm.

I will say this... As far as AD vrs ND, I beleive that while an AD is possible (default in the firearm) they are extremeley rare.. most of what is refered to as an AD is (in my opinion) actually a ND... This story being a prime example...The firearm did not malfuntion (AD), the carrier malfunctioned (ND).

Edited to add: As far as carrying "with one in the chamber"... I always carry both firearms fully loaded. As already mentioned the seconds it takes to chamber a round could mean life or death. I have seen an instructor that open carried on the hip with an empty chamber who chambered a round using his pant leg as part or the draw... It was pretty fast but not for me. Also not mentioned, carrying fully loaded gives me 1 extra round ready to go that I would not have if I had to chamber a round from the Mag. before firing.

Outdoorsman1

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 16, 2011, 07:42 PM
How does a shirt tail get through a trigger gaurd, If a gun is in your pants, i cant think of many things that can get in the trigger gaurd...... do you have a lot of stuff between your pants and your undies?

It's actually happened to Police in a good holster, it can most certainly happen without a holster.

blue_ridge
November 16, 2011, 09:46 PM
I'm suprised that no one has come up with a snap off device more reliable than the trigger block, I did a search and looked at a dozen different mods, none I would use other than the block.

Maybe because there are dozens of other guns with a manual safety. so there's not much of a market for devices making the Glock safer. People probably just buy a different gun or learn to handle the Glock more safely.

revolversrbetter
November 17, 2011, 12:04 AM
everyone should read this story

it describes, in pictures, how a Glock can AD while in a holster

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/firearms/safety-warning-worn-leather-holsters-can-cause-accidental-discharges/

Pyro
November 17, 2011, 12:20 AM
Very good read, not sure about your name though. :neener:

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 17, 2011, 12:28 AM
everyone should read this story

it describes, in pictures, how a Glock can AD while in a holster

More like how it can AD in a holster that is past it's service life. I wouldn't carry any gun in a holster like that.

ReloaderEd
November 17, 2011, 12:40 AM
I am now convinced a trigger block is a good idea on a Glock or like pistol, especially if you carry a round in the chamber. All the talk is good and I have learned alot. It does make me very sad and edgy about guns in general. Be Safe

revolversrbetter
November 17, 2011, 12:45 AM
in the article, the author states he'd been using the holster "one year and two weeks", that's not very long to be outside its service life, I always just assumed holsters last forever

(oh, btw, I'm not down on Glocks, I own a Glock 22, amazing weapon, I just feel revolvers have more character..., but, that's neither here nor there...)

blue_ridge
November 17, 2011, 12:46 AM
I say more people need to be edgy around guns. It's the overly confident guys who pull a Barney Fife. Treat every gun like it's loaded, all the time. Practice, practice, practice.

RNB65
November 17, 2011, 01:32 AM
And stick with kydex for Glocks. It's a match made in heaven! :)

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 17, 2011, 01:57 AM
in the article, the author states he'd been using the holster "one year and two weeks", that's not very long to be outside its service life, I always just assumed holsters last forever

If that's what the holster looked like, than yes it was past it's short, crappy, service life.

dataDyne
November 17, 2011, 02:05 AM
Another reason why one should never load a firearm that isn't going to be used intentionally immediately

allaroundhunter
November 17, 2011, 02:34 AM
Another reason why one should never load a firearm that isn't going to be used intentionally immediately

Actually, as others have said, this is another reason why one should use a good holster. If you are going to carry a gun on you for defense, as this man was, it does indeed needed to be loaded.

I know that it is hard to believe, dataDyne, but BG's don't actually come up to you before they are going to cause you harm and warn you to load your gun....

HorseSoldier
November 17, 2011, 03:54 AM
Treat every gun like it's loaded, all the time.

This.

Ain't really much else to it.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 17, 2011, 04:03 AM
Another reason why one should never load a firearm that isn't going to be used intentionally immediately

All of my defensive guns are all fully loaded and chambered. That includes the handgun on my hip and even my shotgun.

45_auto
November 17, 2011, 09:01 AM
If you try to save money on something that can easily affect your life, like low quality holsters, don't be surprised if you get shot in the a$$.

Same philosophy applies to mountain climbing ropes, helicopter rotor blades, scuba gear, parachutes, etc.

hardluk1
November 17, 2011, 09:13 AM
iN THIS STORY HIS FRIEND COMMENTED THAT HE DID NOT USE A HOLSTER. SO THIS COULD HAVE BEEN MANY GUNS ,EVEN A REVOLVER

JohnBT
November 17, 2011, 01:12 PM
I don't believe I own any revolvers with a 5 or 7 pound DA trigger. Mine are a lot heavier, more like 12. Does Glock make a model with a 12 pound trigger?

45_auto
November 17, 2011, 02:10 PM
They make an optional 11 lb trigger spring. Is that close enough?

http://www.glock.com/english/options_triggerspring.htm

GLOCK TRIGGER SPRING
The optional GLOCK „New York“ trigger springs produce revolver-like trigger action, facilitating the acclimation from traditional revolvers to semi-automatics.

STANDARD All GLOCK pistols are delivered with a standard trigger spring from the factory. It guarantees constant trigger pull resistance over the entire trigger travel.

N.Y.1 The GLOCK „New York“ trigger has its name from the New York Police Department. It facilitates officers changing from revolvers to pistols. Increases trigger pull weight from 2,5 kg / 5.5 lb. to 4,9 kg / 11 lb.

N.Y.2 The N.Y.2 trigger spring is even harder than the N.Y.1 trigger spring. The user will obtain a continuous very hard revolver-like increase of the trigger pull weight from 3,2 kg / 7 lb. to 5 kg / 11 lb.

JohnBT
November 17, 2011, 03:23 PM
11 would be close enough, but has anybody ever used one?

45_auto
November 17, 2011, 05:24 PM
Lots of Glock "gurus" recommend them, many police departments used to require them (it's called a NY trigger because it was developed for the NYPD).

I'm not sure how many still require them with the proliferation of all of the Glock copies in the last 10 years.

Cop Bob
November 17, 2011, 06:17 PM
The Glock is on my old departments approved carry list, an a good number of officers carry them, but they are not carried by the majority, most leaning toward the SIG, Beretta, Springfield's and a host of others,, 80% of all AD's in that department occur with Glocks... Just sayin... However, it is the way the gun is designed... To carry without, or with an improper holster is folly... this proves it..

I own one Glock, in 9mm I do not carry it.... as there are others that I am more proficient with and prefer larger calibers for carry...

My heartfelt condolences to the Family... a very sad and unfortunate incident...

Leanwolf
November 18, 2011, 12:40 AM
NY 32182 - "... "Plaxicoed" himself."

Did Bill Plaxco shoot himself???

L.W.

HorseSoldier
November 18, 2011, 01:32 AM
NFL player Plaxico Burress managed to shoot himself in the leg at a nightclub in NYC after jamming his pistol (a Glock also, IIRC) in his pants waistband without holster but it then got away from him inside the pants (darn baggy pants) and he snagged the trigger as he tried to grab it . . .

NOLAEMT
November 18, 2011, 01:49 AM
Another reason why one should never load a firearm that isn't going to be used intentionally immediately
why does this keep coming up? If I knew when I was going to need my firearm, I wouldn' still be in the same place, and therefore would have no need for a firearm.

But as I am not clairvoyant, I will continue to carry my gun in condition 1, and do so safely. As long as you carry in a quality holster, and know what you are doing, carrying a loaded weapon is as safe as anything else you do during the day.

HorseSoldier
November 18, 2011, 02:31 AM
That is a safety rule that a lot of ranges impose and that, consequently, a lot of people have internalized. When you get right down to it, it's also a habit the peacetime military hammers into people for live ammo -- a habit which has only been partially addressed by a decade of war.

And to a certain extent, it makes sense, if your definition of "immediately" used includes carry for self defense as a "use." I would never carry a concealed pistol without a round in the chamber, but I don't keep every gun in the house locked and loaded 24/7 (even if I treat as loaded at all times).

JohnBT
November 18, 2011, 08:47 AM
He had a carry permit.
Glock 27.
Mexican carry.
His wife was halfway out the door.
He threw the gun to the floorboard.
"Oh my God I think I just shot myself"

The kids thought a balloon in the car popped.

The police surmise he was "adjusting" the gun.

There are 275,428 active permits in Virginia according to the article.

I am looking at the Richmond Times-Dispatch. Page B2.

John

gym
November 18, 2011, 01:39 PM
Sunny your reading it wrong, he threw it after he shot himself. Since I went back to Glock as my main carry, I use the block. No garantee it can't fall out, but so far it hasn't other than from the wrong holster choice. I can push it out with my normal motion of putting finger in trigger gaurd. Meanwhile it's not a magic cure all, but will keep things out of that area, like zippers drawstrings etc. It dosen't take too much preassure to knock it out, "adjustable with allen wrench", you can make it super tight, but that could also be a problem.
I set mine so you need to press harder than just a touch, you need to pop it out. I works with some holsters, like open top iwb "with no strap", even my fobus, if I tighten it down, but I don't really need it with that type holster. It's good for night time when you keep your gun on the night stand or in a holster hanging off the bed side. It has come out 2 to 3 times in 3 years, because of it not liking a certain holster. It's better than nothing, Why someone hasn't made something better is still a mystery to me. I have seen the triggers ranging from 50-200 dollars, but I don't like having something drilled through the trigger. The frame mod is just too expensive and I would go to a sig before doing that. You have to price something inline with the gun. When I asked for night sights on my 26, the seller, "who is a member here" said I don't usually carry them because people have a number in their head for this gun of $500. Pricing it at 625.00 is a no go for most folks. And spending $200 for a frame safety is the same. Just go into a sig or H&K . There should be a plastic part that is more secure than the block, but easy to get off, like a thumb break. Whoever figures out the design will make a lot of money. This has been going on way too long with people worrying about shooting themselves. I honestlly didn't really concern myself with it until I started reading about someone doing this every time I look at a forum. Maybe a 11 lb trigger is a compromise, but not for me, I like the trigger, it's one of the best selling points of the gun. Could we just have a lot of folks who are too new to shooting to own a glock? I know my neighboors use it as a substitute for the word Gun. I want a Glock, I hear that all the time from non shooters.

JohnBT
November 18, 2011, 01:41 PM
His wife was exiting the vehicle to return a movie when the gun went off. The police surmise he threw the gun on the floor after shooting himself.

Read the part where they think he was "adjusting the gun" when it discharged.

revolversrbetter
November 18, 2011, 02:42 PM
here's a link to the story

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/nov/18/tdmet02-man-whose-gun-discharged-killing-him-had-c-ar-1467500/

Leanwolf
November 18, 2011, 02:57 PM
HORSESOLDIER - "NFL player Plaxico Burress managed to shoot himself in the leg at a nightclub in NYC after jamming his pistol (a Glock also, IIRC) in his pants waistband without holster..."

Thanks for that info, HorseSoldier. I'd forgot that story about Plaxico, as I'm not much of a football fan. The name struck me as that of a long time IPSC shooter, Bill Plaxco, against whom I used to compete in the old IPSC days.

L.W.

Panzercat
November 18, 2011, 03:37 PM
Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.
I hate to speak ill of the dead, but yeah, that. And I guess his safety was off too? I'm not horribly familiar with glocks and how easy it is to disengage that and pull the trigger accidentally, but... dang.

45_auto
November 18, 2011, 03:48 PM
From the newspaper article about the shooting:

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/nov/18/tdmet02-man-whose-gun-discharged-killing-him-had-c-ar-1467500/

Glock semi-automatic handguns and other "safe action" pistols have a series of internal safeties, rather than external, that prevent the gun from discharging unless the trigger is pulled, said J.D. McEwan, who runs the firearms department at Southern Police Equipment. Such guns need to be carried in a quality holster that keeps the trigger guard covered, he said.

"And unfortunately, this gentleman, as tragic as it is, wasn't following proper safety protocol," McEwan said.

allaroundhunter
November 18, 2011, 03:54 PM
I hate to speak ill of the dead, but yeah, that. And I guess his safety was off too? I'm not horribly familiar with glocks and how easy it is to disengage that and pull the trigger accidentally, but... dang.

Again, there is no point to carrying a defensive handgun without a round in the chamber...and again, Glocks do no have a manual active safety. The stock trigger pull is typically around 5-7 pounds, so it really isn't hard to have an ND if you aren't following safe gun handling and carrying procedures.

Jim Watson
November 18, 2011, 04:06 PM
I wish they would get their stories straight.
Pocket or waistband, seatbelt or "adjusting".
But I doubt we will ever know just what went wrong.

If I had just shot myself in my car, I would probably be like him and claim that I was trying to unbuckle a seat belt too.

Maybe not in this case, but such things are very common, coverups of really dumb tricks as low probability accidents, coverups of suicides as accidents, coverups of domestic disputes as accidents. Happens regularly.

Bartholomew Roberts
November 18, 2011, 05:23 PM
The only reason I can think of not to carry Condition One is because you cannot do so safely, either due to a lack of proper equipment, or the lack of the necessary skillset/mindset to carry that way.

The guy in this story had several options that would have been better. One would have been to carry the Glock in a holster designed for that model of Glock that covered the trigger. He could have used a trigger block device like several of those mentioned here. He could have carried Condition 3 if he just had to carry Mexican with an exposed trigger on a pistol with a short 5-7lb trigger.

It is such a sad, unnecessary death. If we understood better why he thought that the mode of carry he used was appropriate/safe, we might have a better understanding of what was really needed to prevent this; because ultimately the real problem is that he took an unnecessary risk and apparently didn't realize it.

JohnBT
November 18, 2011, 08:10 PM
Why don't you think it concerns Glocks and external safeties?

If the pistol had an external safety.
If the external safety had been engaged.
When the trigger was pulled it would not have fired.

Glocks do not have an external safety. A external safety improves your chances quite a bit when you are carrying with the trigger exposed.

Still with me?

It wasn't what I would call an accident. It was what we call an accident just waiting to happen.

Mr. Doughnut
November 18, 2011, 09:20 PM
Glocks do not have an external safety. A external safety improves your chances quite a bit when you are carrying with the trigger exposed. ...It was what we call an accident just waiting to happen.

I couldn't agree more. Glocks are simply too real-world risky, IMHO. I've had a CCW permit since '75, and have fired many Glocks on the range. Easy to shoot --and usually pretty accurate -- but I'd never carry one.

My heart goes out to the deceased's family.

Mr. Doughnut

Panzercat
November 18, 2011, 09:45 PM
I gotta agree with Doughnut & JohnBT here and there isn't much more to say beyond that. Call me a lightweight, but to not have that final, last layer of manual actuation in a chambered carry pistol not on the battlefield is just... Sigh. Sure, the right holster may mitigate that and I know we're all spec ops and top shot here, but random chance is better.

My opinion of course. That said, I certainly won't infringe on your right to carry one /shrug.

Bartholomew Roberts
November 18, 2011, 10:33 PM
Got a Glock In Condition One in my pocket right now in a pocket holster designed for it. The key is you can't stick your fingers or other things in the triggerguard unless you are ready to shoot. If you don't feel you can manage that safely, then a Glock is not for you.

Alex23
November 18, 2011, 10:48 PM
This story is sloppy and doesn't illuminate.

Glocks tend to go bang when you pull the trigger. Using a high quality holster that totally prevents access to the trigger (MTAC / Crossbreed etc) is better than any manual safety.

Most people who bitch about Glocks being dangerous simply have no idea about gun safety when carrying. This "DEA agent" shot himself. Some people might blame the Glock. Rational people will realize he was a lazy idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pf3ID3XQ6o

Classic video. The guy is a tool, untrained, shoots himself, and then tries to lecture about guns.

joedotnet
November 18, 2011, 11:12 PM
Why don't you think it concerns Glocks and external safeties?

If the pistol had an external safety.
If the external safety had been engaged.
When the trigger was pulled it would not have fired.

Glocks do not have an external safety. A external safety improves your chances quite a bit when you are carrying with the trigger exposed.

Still with me?

It wasn't what I would call an accident. It was what we call an accident just waiting to happen.
Ummmm....so if he's carrying it in his pocket...WITHOUT a holster....and is unfortunately untrained enough to put his hand in and adjust it by using the trigger...what makes you think he would have been so conscious about safety to actually USE the external safety?

gym
November 18, 2011, 11:37 PM
The pistol is a "Fighting gun", it is meant to be simple. Those of us that have been carrying them for decades know and respect that. The block is just a part for preventing removing the gun when you are in your down time. It is as I mentioned great at night, "along with a front night sight" to get it in a hurry in complete darkness, like when dressing and undressing. Otherwise I don't touch my guns. The most I would do is graze my pocket to make sure my spare is where it's supposed to be. And nothing should be going on if you have to remove the gun. I take the holster out with the weapon. I never try to stick a Glock in a iwb holster. If I have to disrobe, I take it completely out with the pistol, do what I have to, and replace it the same way as when I got dressed. That's just me and my rules, same as replacing all my papers and cards before leaving a counter or bank window.You need a routine for youself otherwise you are an accident waiting to happen. Now that I said this I will no doubt loose something, but up until know I have never lost my keys, my wallett, or anything else, because they go where and when they are supposed to go.
Adjusting you gun in a car while talking to your wife and kids or anyone is just a dumb thing to do. I feel bad for the guy , but he brought this on himself. Glocks are efficient little killing machines, they aren't for everyone, IMO too many people have them that aren't aware of the danger element. They are made to point and shoot, they have become very popular, and as mentioned a substitute for the word "gun" sometimes. In untrained hands they can cause things like this to happen very easily. As we know just because somone has a badge ,doesn't make them a weapons expert. playing around with a Glock or any striker fired pistol with no safety is not a good idea for anyone, unless you are paying full attention to what you are doing. I remember my first one a gen 1 Glock 23, and after buying it thinking man this is dangerous unless it's in a good Gaalco holster, "popular back then", and carrying it unchambered for a few days untill I felt comfortable with it. 1993 ish, that was my first of many, Fear and respect of something new is a good thing. But I would never carry any gun unchambered, anything can go wrong in a "shoot fast" situation, you will be too busy to rack the slide and take aim if you are under fire, it's best to carry a different gun if you aren't comfortable with the Glock.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 19, 2011, 01:58 AM
I couldn't agree more. Glocks are simply too real-world risky, IMHO. I've had a CCW permit since '75, and have fired many Glocks on the range. Easy to shoot --and usually pretty accurate -- but I'd never carry one.

Real world risky? Like what? Being too lazy to put a holster on or something?

JohnBT
November 19, 2011, 09:09 AM
"Several makes and models of semiauto weapons don't have external safeties and we hear nothing about them."

We know that fact and that Glocks outnumber all of them. This man had a Glock. You keep getting off track when discussing what this person did.

Carl N. Brown
November 19, 2011, 09:48 AM
Defective product ....

WikiPedia: "The Glock pistol, sometimes referred to by the manufacturer as Glock "Safe Action" Pistol... commanding 65% of the market share of handguns for United States law enforcement agencies as well as supplying numerous national armed forces and security agencies worldwide."

A relatively light double action trigger pull is a feature of the Glock pistol accepted by literally millions of military and police users since 1982. Kinda hard to argue that is a defect since so many government users are aware of the guns features and trained accordingly.

Carry permit in TN includes 4 hr class on gun safety including a written exam (with passing score). Proper holster has been emphasized by everyone I have heard speak about handgun carry not just Glocks, and "pocket carry" of any handgun is discouraged.

ADDED: I practiced carry about the house until I was satisfied that I could carry in public without having to do any "adjustments" to the carry rig or gun.

Mr. Doughnut
November 19, 2011, 10:16 AM
In order for an AD/ND to occur, a certain number of successive hurdles must be cleared. External safeties increase the number of those hurdles, thus reducing the chances of an AD/ND.

Consider... A little child picks up a loaded Glock, points it at another child and pulls the trigger. It goes bang. Now, replace the Glock with, say, a Makarov on safe and two hurdles are in place: disengagement of the thumb safety and the long DA trigger pull.

I know, I know, "Why does the kid have access to a gun in the first place?" Stuff happens, like with the victim in the minivan. Hey, maybe the dude had been carrying Mexican since Pancho Villa was a corporal, but on that day the planets lined up and Murphy chimed in.

Someone said it best earlier in this thread when they likened carrying a Glock to carrying a single-action revolver that's already cocked. Carrying a gun with that kind of risk profile is simply looking for trouble, and sooner or later trouble will find you. Why take the chance?

Clearly, Glock's massive penetration into the LE and civilian markets is a triumph of marketing genius and a tribute to consumer gullibility. Yes, the guns shoot well, are rugged, accurate, etc., but so are lots of others.

BTW, the ad agency that coined the term "safe-action pistol" for Glock really earned their fee. Kudos. That slogan is strong and reassuring -- positively brilliant copy.

In our discussion, the pro-Glock arguments stress the human element (training, safe handling, storage, etc.). But temper the human element just a little and it's clear that Glocks are inherently unsafe.

By their own design, Glocks are more dangerous than pistols equipped with an external safety -- and that is an undeniable fact.

Mr. Doughnut

TexasRifleman
November 19, 2011, 10:28 AM
By their own design, Glocks are more dangerous than pistols equipped with an external safety -- and that is an undeniable fact.

All guns are dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn't practice proper safety techniques. Glocks are not more dangerous than any other gun. Do they require more diligence than a gun with a manual safety? Probably so. That doesn't make them more dangerous in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. Let's be honest here. Glocks are by far the most common handgun in the US both in the hands of LE and civilians. If they really were truly more dangerous or had any kind of design flaw we'd be seeing incidents literally daily and lawsuits backed up in the Georgia courts. The gun works as it is designed. If you don't like the design, the market is full of alternatives and maybe more folks should consider that. I will agree that Glocks marketing department does a great job. But, in the end, buyer beware.

This guy should have been carrying his gun with a loaded magazine and empty chamber. It's not uncommon, and it's not silly in a situation like this. If someone insists on carrying a semi auto without a holster, where the trigger is exposed all the time, the proper way to do it is in Condition 3.

Of course it's not the best way to do it, the best way is to use a proper holster. But if someone, for whatever reason, doesn't want a holster then Condition 3 is the right thing to do.

You simply can't design a gun safe enough to be idiot proof.

This sad story is a case of lack of knowledge and technique, and nothing more.

JohnBT
November 19, 2011, 11:50 AM
I've carried a Rohrbaugh 9 everyday for 4.5 years and always in a holster. No external safety of any kind. A good holster, not a flimsy one. (Holsters provide a little protection too. Front pocket carry puts my R9 down there with the table corners, door knobs, etc. )

"what makes you think he would have been so conscious about safety to actually USE the external safety? "

Chances of using an external safety if you don't have one? Zero.
Chances of using it if you actually have one on your gun are a whole lot better.

You can't make people do stuff, but often if something is right there and ready to go, they'll use it. If you tell them the gun has multiple safeties, well, maybe they feel protected from accidents while carrying their Glock.

Does Glock still advertise proudly that their guns have multiple safeties?

Okay, I looked. www.glock.com/downloads/GLOCK_Gen4_en.pdf The title you see if you open the 12-page document is GLOCK "SAFE ACTION".

Of the six features listed first, the top one is "Safe Action" System. I can see this lulling some folks into a false sense of security. On page 10 they discuss the "fully automatic safety system consisting of three passive..."

Passive. You don't have to do a thing to be safe. :)

John

TexasRifleman
November 19, 2011, 12:39 PM
You don't have to do a thing to be safe.

Other than not pulling the trigger, that's exactly right.

I don't remember seeing any Glock advertising that said if you pull the trigger the gun won't fire unless it's pointed at a bad guy. It's funny that here on THR we continually rail against the anti's for blaming the gun when bad thing happen yet some are perfectly willing to do it here in this case.

rellascout
November 19, 2011, 01:11 PM
A Spotsylvania County man with a valid concealed-weapon permit died after a semi-automatic pistol without an external safety discharged as he tried to adjust the weapon, which was tucked into his waistband, investigators have concluded

Hey JohnBT and GBExpat where is your apology or at least a correction of your complaints?

GBExpat: Not trying to put words in JohnBT's mouth, but for one reason that should be obvious to you, you specified in the @SUBJ that he had a VA CHP.

Other than for the sake of accuracy, I was looking at the story from the point of view of an anti making an argument against carry permits I mostly found it strange that they hadn't reported any details, but somebody knew he had a carry permit. .

I stated from the start that this guy has a CCW permit and you got your shorts all in a bunch. were bothered by my original thread title and low and behold look you was correct.....You were sooooo concerned about accuracy yet nothing but silence now.

Back on topic LOL

The guy had a permit, he appears to have been carrying in an unsafe manner and paid for it with his life. Do not blame the Glock blame him. He pulled the trigger. Gaston did not. People really need to understand the responsiblity and the risk that carrying a gun entails. If you carry you have a duty to yourself and others to do so in as safe a manner as possible.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 19, 2011, 01:50 PM
Consider... A little child picks up a loaded Glock, points it at another child and pulls the trigger. It goes bang. Now, replace the Glock with, say, a Makarov on safe and two hurdles are in place: disengagement of the thumb safety and the long DA trigger pull.

All of my guns are locked up or on me besides my shotgun. When I actually have kids, I'll get a wall mounted lock for the shotgun but thats all that would change. By your logic, all guns should have a heavy trigger pull because they might be left out. I'll take being smart about storing my guns.

cassandrasdaddy
November 19, 2011, 07:29 PM
and this guy was less than 5 mins from a trauma center, for all the good it did him

JohnBT
November 19, 2011, 08:16 PM
" stated from the start that this guy has a CCW permit and you got your shorts all in a bunch. were bothered by my original thread title and low and behold look you was correct...."

There wasn't any reference in the beginning. Folks like me wanted to know who said so. You know, facts. Then later on there was a reference cited. You see that, right? God you're thin skinned. Things eat at you much?

Apology for what? Asking why the title said one thing and the info available didn't mention a carry permit? You want an apology for being asked to support a written statement? I don't think so.

John

rellascout
November 19, 2011, 08:20 PM
Apology for what? Asking why the title said one thing and the info available didn't mention a carry permit? You want an apology for being asked to support a written statement? I don't think so.


Apology for questioning what I posted in a way which implied that what I posted was not true. You were sooooooo paranoid people would associate this guys actions with other CHP/CCW holders you felt the need to question the post not once but twice. Reality is he was a CHP holder just like I said he was. So I guess you can expect the anti onslaught... I guess its time to circle the wagons. LOL

Not thin skinned at all just don't like being questioned by someone who was ignorant of the facts when I knew them.

rellascout
November 19, 2011, 08:27 PM
Again not that it matters if he was a CHP holder or not. As I states several times in a shall issue state like VA where you take a one hour course without any live firing the permit is a formality.

Now that you know the guy had a CHP please explain to me how this has changed the events or what will happen afterwards....

JohnBT
November 19, 2011, 08:28 PM
"as if what I posted was not true"

It wasn't about you. It was about where the info about the carry permit came from. You didn't say at first. The only mention of it was in the title. That's all it was about. You still don't get it.

To the poster going on and on about how safe Glocks are. That was never my point. Did you read the part where I carry a Rohrbaugh everyday and it doesn't have an external safety either, but I use a holster? The point I was making was about Glock's heavy advertising of their Safe Action System and how it could possibly lull someone into a false sense of safety. Not everyone reads the owner's manual. Some never get past the advertising. This isn't complicated, deep thinking here, just an observation.

I re-read what I wrote before. I think somebody else also needs to because they missed the central meaning the first time through.

John

HorseSoldier
November 19, 2011, 08:31 PM
Permit or not doesn't make any difference. The vast majority of firearms accidents in this country involve law abiding gun owners whose conduct with the weapon, while possibly negligent in a civil sense, was not criminal even at the time of the accident.

rellascout
November 19, 2011, 08:36 PM
Permit or not doesn't make any difference. The vast majority of firearms accidents in this country involve law abiding gun owners whose conduct with the weapon, while possibly negligent in a civil sense, was not criminal even at the time of the accident.

I agree 100% which is why I thought JohnBTs questioning the original thread title a moot point but he for some reason took issue.

JohnBT
November 19, 2011, 08:40 PM
Sir, you've lost your mind if you think I was paranoid.

Did anyone question you after you posted that someone you knew closer to the action said that they heard that the guy had a permit? No, I just wanted to know where that info came from.

Paranoid. Jeez. Have a nice evening. Hope you get over whatever is eating at you.

John

rellascout
November 19, 2011, 08:42 PM
Other than for the sake of accuracy, I was looking at the story from the point of view of an anti making an argument against carry permits.

Where these not your words JohnBT?

The point I was making was about Glock's heavy advertising of their Safe Action System and how it could possibly lull someone into a false sense of safety. Not everyone reads the owner's manual. Some never get past the advertising. This isn't complicated, deep thinking here, just an observation.

Then the question becomes what can we do as the educated gun community to counter act this "lull" ?

TexasRifleman
November 19, 2011, 09:54 PM
OK lets abandon this line of discussion or the thread can't stay open. Please?

Guns4Fun
November 20, 2011, 03:57 AM
I took my 8 and 9 year olds out to the woods and demolished a pineapple with a 9mm. I let them hold the gun, pull the trigger (with me holding on too) and helped them to understand just exactly why they do not want to touch, mention, or even think about the handgun. The worst mistake IMO is to permit curiosity.

rem22long40x
November 20, 2011, 04:54 AM
Quote[Simple solution ... don't chamber a round in a carry gun.] A unloaded gun can in a cary situation can get you killed faster than a accidental discharge !!!!

rem22long40x
November 20, 2011, 05:05 AM
Quote [I took my 8 and 9 year olds out to the woods and demolished a pineapple with a 9mm. I let them hold the gun, pull the trigger (with me holding on too) and helped them to understand just exactly why they do not want to touch, mention, or even think about the handgun. The worst mistake IMO is to permit curiosity.] I totally agree . I grue up in a law enforcement house hold and if we asked to see a gun no mater what my dad was doing he would stop and we would go get the gun and check to see that it was unloaded together and he would let us look,handle and ask questions , so we had no reason to go behind his back a look at them with out permission or supervising. and we never did becouse we had no curiosity!!!!

we are not amused
November 20, 2011, 12:47 PM
Some years ago in the small town of Florence, Kansas, near where I live, they had a young town Marshall. He was a bit of a blow hard, and someone who definitely thought being a "cop", made him "cool". Many of us thought he was an idiot, but he didn't cause too much trouble, so he stayed on.
He liked guns, and in addition to his regular service revolver, he purchased a .44 Magnum revolver. Don't know the make or model, but this was in the late '70's. One fine evening, while on duty, and sitting in the patrol car with a friend, he was showing off his brand new revolver, which he carried stuck in his waistband, without a holster. When he went to put the gun back in the waistband of his pants, it discharged and he died almost immediately.
Moral of the story, "Stupid is as stupid does" and that there is a penalty for being stupid. I have seen idiots stick guns in the waistband of their pants, and all I can think of is, Is their life insurance paid up?
I sometimes carry a pocket pistol. I have a pocket holster to keep it in. I would never carry it in my pocket loaded without one, nor would I ever stick a loaded gun in the waistband of my pants. Even with an external "safety", it could be bumped or moved off "safe" due to the shifting of the gun, or it being pulled in or out of the clothing.
Think of it as "Evolution in action".

gym
November 20, 2011, 05:31 PM
There are many catgories of people. Some are very neat, others sloppy. that usually carrys on through their lives. Having nothing to do with just guns. I know people just like many of you who are very detailed to the point of being annoying, and have friends who are not so neat and tidy.Carrying this over to things that can kill you is not a big leap. It's almost impossible to get certain "types" of guys to care about things that they don't thing are a big deal. I don't know this fellow, but it's possible he was a freewheeling soul who didn't take things that seriouslly. So all the contemplation in the world won't tell us what he was or wasn't thinking that day. Only he knows what he did. He paid dearlly for his mistake, why not just leave it at that.

jeepguy
November 20, 2011, 10:14 PM
This concerns me for other reasons as well. A friend of mine just took a ccw class & came back talking about buying a s&w bodyguard. He said he liked it becuse it was a "pocket pistol & it had a laser." Now this pistol does have an external safty but its the mindset of new & inexperienced shooters with these small polymer pistols that concerns me. They seem to think you can just simply pocket cary them, which will some day get someone else seriously hurt or killed. Now you probably know i will do everyhting i can to get him to buy something better or at least get a holster for it.

Onmilo
November 21, 2011, 08:40 PM
I'm not sure how to read into the point of this post,

1. Carrying a Glock will get you killed
2. Glock .40s not only explode, they kill the owners.
3. Open carrying will cause you to accidently kill yourself.
4. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

My condolences to his family.

huntsman
November 21, 2011, 09:19 PM
This concerns me for other reasons as well. A friend of mine just took a ccw class & came back talking about buying a s&w bodyguard. He said he liked it becuse it was a "pocket pistol & it had a laser."

They seem to think you can just simply pocket cary them, which will some day get someone else seriously hurt or killed.

a 10lb trigger pull goes a long way to make a pocket pistol safer then a Glock, If the law allows carry without a holster and nothing else is carried in the gun pocket then.... a holster will go a long way to keeping a pocket pistol in the proper position but a holster is no substitute to good gun handling skills and practice.

SSN Vet
November 22, 2011, 09:35 AM
moral of the story.....

Get your leather together!

SSN Vet
November 22, 2011, 09:42 AM
I grue up in a law enforcement house hold and if we asked to see a gun no mater what my dad was doing he would stop and we would go get the gun and check to see that it was unloaded together and he would let us look,handle and ask questions

I had a similar experience at the kindergarten I attended. We were all taught what a handgun looked like and how they could be very dangerous. We were allowed to hold and handle a big black revolver and admonished that guns were not toys.

If we were lucky and had been good, the teacher would cut lengths of an old garden hose and nail it to little blocks of wood for us to play "cops and robbers" with on the playground.

We were taught the difference between a toy and the real thing.

stonecutter2
November 22, 2011, 09:45 AM
Other than not pulling the trigger, that's exactly right.

I don't remember seeing any Glock advertising that said if you pull the trigger the gun won't fire unless it's pointed at a bad guy. It's funny that here on THR we continually rail against the anti's for blaming the gun when bad thing happen yet some are perfectly willing to do it here in this case.
Man, this is so true. A gun is designed to fire when the trigger is pulled. Unfortunately this poor man wasn't diligent in safety, and tragedy resulted.

The gun wasn't defective, it did exactly what it was designed to do - fire when the trigger is pulled.

I feel badly for this man's wife and children. Returning a video, and they lose their husband/father. Really sad, and probably very preventable.

Once you're complacent with firearms...bad things can happen that you can't undo.

stonecutter2
November 22, 2011, 09:52 AM
I had a similar experience at the kindergarten I attended. We were all taught what a handgun looked like and how they could be very dangerous. We were allowed to hold and handle a big black revolver and admonished that guns were not toys.

If we were lucky and had been good, the teacher would cut lengths of an old garden hose and nail it to little blocks of wood for us to play "cops and robbers" with on the playground.

We were taught the difference between a toy and the real thing.
I would be happy if this was done at my daughter's kindergarten (once she gets there).

But I live in Illinois. They'll probably try to fill her head with gun terror or something :(

stonecutter2
November 22, 2011, 09:53 AM
Quote [I took my 8 and 9 year olds out to the woods and demolished a pineapple with a 9mm. I let them hold the gun, pull the trigger (with me holding on too) and helped them to understand just exactly why they do not want to touch, mention, or even think about the handgun. The worst mistake IMO is to permit curiosity.] I totally agree . I grue up in a law enforcement house hold and if we asked to see a gun no mater what my dad was doing he would stop and we would go get the gun and check to see that it was unloaded together and he would let us look,handle and ask questions , so we had no reason to go behind his back a look at them with out permission or supervising. and we never did becouse we had no curiosity!!!!
My father was the same way - if i asked to see his gun, he would show me. He would take me up to their room, and close the bedroom door. Then he would get his shotgun out, and show me how to clear it (it was hard when i was little). Then he taught me the safety rules.

I will continue this tradition of gun safety and demonstration - kids are curious. I'd rather teach them right then have them snooping around. I never felt like I wanted to go looking at my dad's gun when he wasn't around, because I always wanted to have my dad show me it and i could prove i knew gun safety better than the last time :)

brickeyee
November 22, 2011, 01:10 PM
and this guy was less than 5 mins from a trauma center, for all the good it did him

Hitting just about any of the major arteries in the abdomen (abdominal aorta, external iliac) is very likely to be lethal unless you are lying opened up in surgery.

Even the deep femoral artery will empty you blood volume very quickly.

Even 5 minutes is not close enough for these major arteries.

Some wounds are simply very likely to be lethal, no matter how close you are to aid.

D.R. Middlebrooks
November 22, 2011, 02:16 PM
Sad about the man dying especially in front of his family...

I remember a story about a local officer shooting himself with his Glock. He was holstering it and the hem of his jacket got in the trigger guard as he holstered it, shooting him in the leg.

A plain clothes cop shot himself in training as he was re-holstering with an inside the pants Kydex holster. Same thing the draw string button got inside the trigger guard.

I blame the draw string button. WHODATHUNK? :uhoh:

I've since cut ALL mine off. We should pass this info along.

Stay safe,

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

HorseSoldier
November 23, 2011, 02:07 PM
Even the deep femoral artery will empty you blood volume very quickly.

A minute and change is all someone has on a severed femoral artery (been a bit, but my recollection is it takes something like 72 seconds to bleed out through the femoral). As was said, without already being on a table in an ER (or having a tourniquet right handy) five minutes is an eternity.

230therapy
November 23, 2011, 02:14 PM
His gun, his responsibility. He was not acting responsibly and paid the price.

Be responsible with your liberty.

If you enjoyed reading about "Dude carrying a gun in public in VA has an AD that ends in his own death" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!