Red Dot or Reflex Sight For AK


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A_Matthew
November 15, 2011, 04:11 PM
I've been considering putting some sort of red dot sight on my AK-47. I mostly only do shooting within 100yds, but hope to stretch out a little bit farther. The gun is used mainly just for plinking or in case a coyote comes around. I really prefer the reflex style of sight over the tube style red dot, but either would work. I was planning on using it in conjunction with a Ultimak mount. I have a budget of about ~$100. Maybe a little more if it's the right sight. I would also prefer it if the sight was waterproof. So far, I've been looking at these.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2TG8380B-1.html

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2TG8360B-1.html

I'm open to all suggestions, and if the right sight comes along that costs more than $100, then I might consider it. So, what do you guys/gals think?

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CJS06
November 15, 2011, 04:25 PM
Dont waste your time and $$ for most anything from CTD. If you want a fairly decent "knock -off" RDS check out Primary Arms. They have an excellent selection of bot the authentic brands and they have their in-house brand of clone models. I use Aimpoints, but at one time bought a PA M3 clone as a place holder until I got my Aimpoint. A few couple of years later I still have the clone on top of one of my ARs. I have always used M3s or PRO from Aimpoint but wanted to try out a Micro so I just bought one from PA. They also have a bunch of bundle offers AK's with different mounts.

http://www.primaryarms.com

Carne Frio
November 15, 2011, 04:53 PM
CJS06 is giving you good advice. If you get a too cheap red dot
and put it onto an Ultimak AK rail; you might cook it. Here is
another red dot option:

https://www.primaryarms.com/Vortex_StrikeFire_Red_Green_Dot_FREE_SHIPPING_p/sfrdar15.htm

Primary Arms and Vortex have super warranties and great customer service. I have two Strikefires and they work fine. One is on my
.308 AR.

Rail Driver
November 15, 2011, 04:59 PM
Well to begin with the Ultimak alone will cost around $100 unless you've already got one. If you're looking to go beyond 100yds, I'd recommend a 1-4x scope (variable power) instead of a red dot/reflex style sight.

The red dot sights and reflex sights have no magnification, and are designed to be used in close encounters rather than long range.

Also both of the red dot sights you linked have 3MOA dots on the setting with the smallest dot in the reticle, that's 3" across at 100 yds. On a coyote, 3" is more than enough variance to mean the difference between a dead dog and a blood trail and a suffering animal, even with the 7.62x39 round.

A_Matthew
November 15, 2011, 05:09 PM
Yeah, I've been looking at the link CJS06 gave me, and I really like what I'm seeing. I really like the looks of PA's reflex sight, only it isn't waterproof. :( So I've been looking more and more at their red dot. I was also wondering if any of you have used this mount.

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Micro_Dot_Midwest_Industries_Han_p/md06_mibundle.htm

Is it worth the extra money for the handguard with the rail? Or should I just go with the Ultimak for $13 less.

Rail Driver, that's something I haven't thought of yet. Could you mount a 1-4x on the Ultimak? If you could, I might just go that route.

Rail Driver
November 15, 2011, 05:10 PM
Yeah, I've been looking at the link CJS06 gave me, and I really like what I'm seeing. I really like the looks of PA's reflex sight, only it isn't waterproof. :( So I've been looking more and more at their red dot. I was also wondering if any of you have used this mount.

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_Micro_Dot_Midwest_Industries_Han_p/md06_mibundle.htm

Is it worth the extra money for the handguard with the rail? Or should I just go with the Ultimak for $13 less.

Rail Driver, that's something I haven't thought of yet. Could you mount a 1-4x on the Ultimak? If you could, I might just go that route.
Yes you can, as long as you find a long eye relief scope (a pistol scope would work well)

The microdot package is a good one, but I still recommend the Ultimak. Either way you're going to spend close to $200 to put an optic and a rail on there (depending on the optic you choose).

danweasel
November 15, 2011, 05:22 PM
I actually just got a primary arms M3 on my AK.

I shot about 100 rounds through it this weekend and I really liked it for 70 bucks shipped. Mine is mounted on a Texas Weapon Systems rail ($140 but highly recommended and they sell a ghost ring sight with it) which puts it in the "normal" place for a scope and keeps it a helluva lot cooler so I can't speak to the heat factor. I had a 6" group at 100 yards but you might be able to do better, my eyes are crap. This was shooting supported off my "unipod" AKA the magazine. I have got better with my irons but like they said, these sights aren't precision instruments. The sight held zero perfectly and I tried to test for parallax error at 20 yards. I think it really might be parallax free

Before that I had a Baraska reflex sight. I paid 80 for it at the local shop and I can say that the PA unit is at least twice as nice as far as clarity, roundness of the dot and all that. I still have the baraska and I am just gonna put it on my .22 for fun once in a while.

henschman
November 15, 2011, 05:41 PM
A reflex sight is generally a bad idea on an AK. They have a "window" that sits over the body of the sight, which means that they are taller than a tube-type red dot. Most are intended to have the proper height when mounted on an AR flat top, which puts them much too high to get cheek weld on an AK.

However, with a tube body red dot like an Aimpoint or one of those Primary or Vortex clones, mounted on an Ultimak in a low ring, it is at the proper height without having to build up your cheek rest... you can actually see your iron sights right through the red dot, which is called co-witness. It is a good thing because if your red dot goes TU you can just use your irons right through it without having to remove the sight or anything.

A_Matthew
November 15, 2011, 05:49 PM
So henschman, you're saying that I could mount a red dot on an Ultimak, and still use the iron sights? Because I am personally able to use the iron sights up to about 150-200yds, it's just that in a low light situation or where I need a super fast shot on something closer than 100yds, I'd like the red dot. Besides, it looks cool. :cool:

hawkeye10
November 15, 2011, 06:54 PM
I have a Vortex Strike Fire on my SKS and even with the 2X multiplier that comes with it I think it's a 50 yard sight. Others may see better than me and get more out of it. On my AR I have a Leupold 1.5-4X30 tactical scope and in my opinion it's a 100 yard scope. To shoot varmints at a 100 yards I would want a scope like a 3X9. For deer a 4 power would do. Don

SharpsDressedMan
November 15, 2011, 08:53 PM
After some bad experiences with less expensive red dots, I think a person needs to evaluate how important having a reliable optic on their AK is. If it's just a plinking gun, go ahead and buy the $40-$150 optic. If, however, you plan to rely on the AK for defense, then it is not uncommon to spend more than the AK for a reliable optical sight. Red dots, or fiber optic sights are usually less expensive than the more sophisiticated combat sights, but are great on an AK. I use two different sights on mine, a Trijicon Reflex, and a Zeiss Z-Point. I can recommend both; the Reflex is cheaper, older, and can be found used for $250-$300. The Z-Point is up there with the best of its type, and is in the $400-$450 range, and not often found used. I think both are durable enough to qualify as a combat sight, especially for civilian defensive rifles. The regular, cheaper red dots rely on older technology (and/or Chinese manufacture), often go dead too soon in extreme cold, or just don't hold up to shock as well as the higher quality ones.

briansmithwins
November 15, 2011, 09:46 PM
I avoid those 'optics' from CTD. Eben if they last thru a mag or two on the AK, one drop and they are dead. Battery life will also be minimal.

The PA optics are a good choice if you're on a limited budget. They aslo have the advantage that when you get more funds, you can swap to a Aimpoint Micro and use the same mount.

Having owned both the PA Micro clone optic and a T1 Aimpoint Micro, what you're giving up is a battery life of days instead of years, robustness, brightness range, and clarity.

If it's a fun gun you might use to try and pop a song dog or two, no biggie. If people might die cuz you optic is crapped out, get the Aimpoint.

BSW

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GEadNOVZs80/TOhU-weV4II/AAAAAAAAAyI/uML-svUsArg/s640/IMG_1875.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_FFM20XVuh8/TOhU_L7eRJI/AAAAAAAAAyM/m7Qk14T-txI/s640/IMG_1877.JPG

kfgk14
November 15, 2011, 11:49 PM
Primary Arms and Vortex offer the best "cheap" red dot sights, the rest are largely a waste of time and money.

SharpsDressedMan
November 15, 2011, 11:50 PM
I don't own one of those^^^, but I would..............................great optic.

amprecon
November 16, 2011, 12:10 AM
Leupold DeltaPoint on Ultimak Rail
The only problem is that you cannot co-witness the irons with this installed, just keep the star wrench handy.

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab167/amprecon/Guns/UltimakMountb.jpg

amprecon
November 16, 2011, 12:11 AM
Pic of the dot
http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab167/amprecon/Guns/030.jpg

mdauben
November 16, 2011, 07:42 AM
I have a budget of about ~$100.
At your price range, I would definetly go with a red-dot. While you can find a decent, inexpensive red dot with a bit of research, IMO no one makes a good, cheap reflex sight. Any reflex sight at that price is guaranteed to be junk.

As others have said, though, you might actually be better off with a low power conventional scope for your stated purposes.

A_Matthew
November 16, 2011, 03:23 PM
Thanks guys for all your input! You've given me a lot to think about...:) I really like the idea of using a 1-4 power scope, or a 2-6, but I don't like the fact that it'll be a lot harder to make a quick shot on something (like a coyote). So what I've been thinking of is maybe going with a side rail mount, mounting a low power rifle scope high enough so I can still use the iron sights, and then getting a pair of tritium night sights. That way, if a coyote decides to try and make a dinner out of one of our chickens, I can use the night sights at night, or if it's day time, I'll use the scope. I have a friend who set up his AK like this, and I really like it. The night sights are about $120 here (http://www.amazon.com/Meprolight-AK-47-Tru-Dot-Night-pattern/dp/B0012Z60CE), and I'm not sure what I'll do for a scope yet. Or the other idea I had was to get one of the Vortex red dots, and use it with one of their 3x magnifiers on an Ultimak. Then I wouldn't have to buy the night sights. Either way, I can see I'm going to end up spending more money than I had budgeted. But that's okay. :D

RatherNotSay
November 16, 2011, 04:02 PM
Bushnell TRS-25 is my recommendation. Stands up to the recoil of a 7,62x39 and holds zero exceptionally well after removal of gas tube. It's also in your price range.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/593456/bushnell-trophy-trs-25-red-dot-sight-1x-25mm-3-moa-dot-with-integral-weaver-style-mount-matte

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m577/RNS915/2011-09-16162648.jpg

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/4940/dsc02147md.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/dsc02147md.jpg/)

JHenry
November 16, 2011, 04:38 PM
irons, they make 20-30 round mags for a reason

RatherNotSay
November 16, 2011, 11:01 PM
irons, they make 20-30 round mags for a reason
How fast is your acquisition with those iron sights?

henschman
November 16, 2011, 11:28 PM
The problem with a scope mounted high enough to see the irons under it is that there is no way you will be able to get into a proper shooting position with your cheek rested on the stock with the scope that high. It might work for shooting beer cans at 25 yards, but you can forget about any kind of precision, which kind of defeats the purpose of a scope IMO. And then if you put a big cheek riser on your stock high enough to get cheek weld with the scope, it has to be removed to use the irons, which defeats the purpose of being able to quickly use the irons.

One option you might consider is a scout scope. That is a long eye relief scope that is designed to be mounted farther forward than a regular scope. The nice things about them on an AK are 1) they are really quick to get sight picture with, 2) they leave you a lot of peripheral vision compared to a traditional scope that is close to your eye, and 3) you can mount them low enough that you don't have to use a cheek riser to get a proper cheek weld. You can mount the scout scope in some quick detach rings if you want, so you can pop it off quickly to use the irons. Burris, Leatherwood, and Leupold all make Scout scopes at various price points.

Another option you might consider is an offset red dot sight. That is a backup red dot that is mounted at 45 degrees, next to your scope. If you need to shoot close quarters, you just rotate the rifle and use the red dot. No its not an ideal position, but that matters less for close and fast shooting. Google "offset red dot sight" and you will see what I'm talking about. You can use that with pretty much any scope mounting method. you can either get the offset mount that attaches on a picatinny rail under your scope, or you can get some scope rings that have a picatinny rail on them and attach one there. That would work fine with a receiver-mounted scope and a cheek riser on the stock.

But honestly, if you have OK eyesight, a red dot is perfectly fine out to 250 yards or so with an AK. With a 25/200m zero, you will hit real close to point of aim out to that distance. I personally think that a simple co-witnessed tube bodied red dot sight makes the most sense on an AK. But different strokes for different folks -- some guys need the help of a scope to be able to see the target.

SharpsDressedMan
November 16, 2011, 11:45 PM
On the Ultimak mount that I have on an AK, I can see the iron sights THROUGH the Z-Point sight that I use. Very simple, in the event the battery fails or it gets damaged. Plus, it removes in about 2 seconds with accurate replacement zero.

RatherNotSay
November 17, 2011, 02:40 AM
On the Ultimak mount that I have on an AK, I can see the iron sights THROUGH the Z-Point sight that I use. Very simple, in the event the battery fails or it gets damaged. Plus, it removes in about 2 seconds with accurate replacement zero.

Cool thing about the ultimak is the cowitnessing.

A_Matthew
November 17, 2011, 03:52 AM
Does anyone have any experience using the Texas Weapon Systems (http://texasweaponsystems.com/) mount? That seems to be what I'm looking for. I'm thinking of going with that, and then maybe getting one of the Vortex red dots that includes a 2x magnifier (such as the SPARC). Or doing what henschman suggested and mounting a scope with an offset red dot. But the other thing is I want to keep the bulk and weight down as much as possible. I don't know how much more bulkier it would be if I got the offset mount (such as this (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/628995/daniel-defense-1-oclock-offset-picatinny-rail-aluminum-matte) one), but I think it would be fine.

The Vortex SPARC would be a cheaper set-up, and I suppose I could always switch over to the offset red dot mount without too much trouble. I'm thinking what I'll do is start off with the TWS, a Vortex SPARC (with included magnifier), and see how that works. If I need the extra power of a rifle scope, then I'll switch over to the offset mount. And in the event that the red dot breaks, I'll have the TWS peep sight as a back up. Do you know if it's possible to co-witness with the peep sight and a red dot? Or would you have to take the red dot off to use the peep sight. :confused:

Thanks so much for all your help. :)

Davek1977
November 17, 2011, 07:04 AM
irons, they make 20-30 round mags for a reason I enjoy a good mag dump as much as the next guy, but are you honestly going with the quantity over quality argument here? That argument can be used for a good many things, but number of shots shouldnt be one of them! I guess I expect to hit something when I pull the trigger, and strive for every shot to hit its mark. i would NEVER advocate the spray and pray method, regardless of magazine capacity. Having additional rounds on hand doesnt mean you shouldnt strive to make every shot count

As far as cheap red dots go, I'll agree with the consensus thus far...Primary Arms. I have one for my AR, and its performed well. It may be getting moved to an AK soon though, as I have already scoped the AR-15, as I used it (successfully) for deer season this year.

-v-
November 17, 2011, 01:53 PM
+1 on the Bushnell TRS-25. At a 4/11 setting, which by brightness is on par with my CompC3's 7/11 setting, battery life is 3,000 hours. So you can turn it on and leave it on for about 4 months strait without worry. Mine's on an Arsenal SGL-21, has stood up very well to use an abuse, and has a few silver gouges in its body from less then gentle handling. For $80, I dont think you can beat it.

briansmithwins
November 17, 2011, 03:45 PM
The problem is that with a $100 budget you can get either a decent mount for the AK or a useable optic.

But not both.

If it were me I'd sell something I'm not using or save up until I had around $200. Much less than that and you're going to be way better off sticking with the irons.

Which actually aren't that bad on a AK.

BSW

henschman
November 17, 2011, 05:07 PM
Yeah you can co-witness with that TWS mount. The pic they have on their website is of a micro co-witnessed on it. The rear peep looks like it is completely non-adjustable, so you could forget about adjusting it for different ranges like you can with your factory rear sight.

A_Matthew
November 17, 2011, 11:26 PM
My $100 budget was for the scope alone. I was already figuring on the mount. And I think I'll be raising that budget anyway... :)

That's the one thing I don't like about the TWS is that you have to get rid of your irons and make do with the non-adjustable peep sight. Would it be possible to co-witness with the Ultimak and one of the Vortex red dots? I've heard that you can not co-witness with the SPARC and the Ultimak, but I'm not sure about the Strikeforce. I'm looking seriously at the SPARC right now, as it seems to fit my needs. Comes with a 2x magnifier, and 3 different mounts. So I guess it's come down to the either the Ultimak or the TWS for a rail, and one of the Vortex red dots.

230therapy
November 17, 2011, 11:38 PM
Ultimak rail (or RS Regulate side rail) and the Aimpoint are the way to go. You can buy once or you can buy twice.

I have the TWS rail. I'm not really pleased with it. I'll see how it shakes out.

henschman
November 18, 2011, 06:18 PM
On an Ultimak, the SPARC wouldn't co-witness, but a Strikefire would (it is just a copy of an Aimpoint). Any of the Primary Arms Aimpoint copies would co-witness, too.

Another option to look at (if you're not overloaded by now, lol) is the Midwest Industries Micro-dot mount. It mounts various mini red dots, and some of them co-witness. Info is on their site.

wally
November 18, 2011, 06:56 PM
I've yet to find a sub $200 reflex type sight that stands up. OTOH I've had near universal good results with inexpensive tube type red dots.

+1 to Primary Arms in your price range, although their Micro reflex is yet another example that didn't hold up, but they gave me full credit towards a Burris Fastfire2 that has been fine but is ~$200.



Ultimak rail (or RS Regulate side rail) and the Aimpoint are the way to go. You can buy once or you can buy twice

I like my Primary Arms red dot and Ultimak enough that I'll spring for the Aimpoint if my Primary Arms sight dies. Not willing to spend that kind of money upfront without experience with the setup.

I slightly favor the reflex sight because it doesn't need batteries
Huh? the only ones I know of that don't need batteries are the Trijicon and Meprolight, and these are in the Aimpoint price range, 4-5X his.

I've got a Trijicon RMR on my FNP-45 Tactical and it rocks, but IMHO its dot size options are too large for a primary rifle sight.

kingkeoni
November 18, 2011, 07:06 PM
Bushnell TRS25 is the best red dot that I've found for under $100.

I have used them on more than one AK with the ultimak mount.

Here is a great comparison of the TRS25 and a Burris fastfire 2.
http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=1425.0

A_Matthew
November 18, 2011, 09:19 PM
I visited a a local Cabelas today and looked at a couple of red dot sights, including the Vortex Strikefire. After looking at it, it's a little bit bigger than I'd like, but still reasonable. My next choice would be the SPARC, but it's $50 more. My brother has the TRS-25, and it's not quite what I'm looking for. I've considered Primary Arms quite a bit, but the battery life doesn't seem to be quite on par with other red dots. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that...) But then again, no red dot (except for the Aimpoint) is going to have a very good battery life. But then I heard about Trijicon, and their Reflex sight. I really liked the idea of the tritium, so it doesn't need batteries. But I always thought that Trijicon was way out of my price range, until I found this (http://www.amazon.com/Reflex-12-9-Triangle-Reticle-Amber/dp/B000VYSX18/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1321643357&sr=1-1). It's only $100 more than the SPARC, but very high quality, doesn't need batteries, and I really like the 12.9 MOA triangle they're using as the reticle. Very fast close up shots, but still precision enough for longer shots (150yds or so). I'm pretty sure I'll be able to come up with the money within a couple of weeks. So, what do you think of the sight? I'll probably use this (http://www.amazon.com/Mounts-Profile-Flattop-Quick-Detach/dp/B0037WCV4Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321643271&sr=8-1) as a mount on top of the Ultimak. Even if it isn't able to co-witness, I can live with that. :)

230therapy
November 18, 2011, 11:22 PM
Seriously...just save up and get the Aimpoint. The lower end optics just don't hold up for anything other than range use.

BTW...start saving up for a Battlecomp for AK's. It's like cheating!

fatcat4620
November 19, 2011, 12:54 AM
Google the kobra red dot sight and you will never look back.

A_Matthew
November 19, 2011, 03:00 PM
The Kobra sight looks good, but the only place I could find it at was here (http://www.eastwave.ca/products/scopes/cobra.html). Is $400 worth it?

So I was looking at Aimpoints, and this one (http://www.opticsplanet.net/aim-point-compc3-red-dot-sight-11421.html) looked like the most affordable one. But once again, it's $400, and the Trijicon is $300. So just how "low end" of an optic is Trijicon? I know that Aimpoints are all good, but I don't know if I can justify the extra $100. Keep in mind that I still have to buy a mount for my AK, which is around $100, and a mount for the red dot itself. So I'm looking at about $450 altogether (with the Trijicon) or add an extra $100 for the Aimpoint. The reason I'm willing to pay so much more for the Trijicon than my original budget allowed is that it doesn't require batteries, which is an important feature in my book. I know that the Aimpoints have a really long battery life, but they still use batteries. And I'd hate to have them run out when I needed them most. :)

Zombiphobia
November 19, 2011, 04:07 PM
you don't HAVE to spend a lot of money on Aimpoint's or EOTech or BlackHawk or Tango down products to get a utilitarian, functional reflex site or other tactical tool.... just don't expect them to last as long or be as durable.

I have a cheapo plastic one I put on my AK and it works fine. Batteries don't last long, though. If I wanted a tough, reliable tactical site to use in all situations, expect to pay more than 100$

briansmithwins
November 19, 2011, 04:12 PM
The Kobra sight looks good, but the only place I could find it at was here. Is $400 worth it?

So I was looking at Aimpoints, and this one looked like the most affordable one. But once again, it's $400, and the Trijicon is $300. So just how "low end" of an optic is Trijicon? I know that Aimpoints are all good, but I don't know if I can justify the extra $100. Keep in mind that I still have to buy a mount for my AK, which is around $100, and a mount for the red dot itself. So I'm looking at about $450 altogether (with the Trijicon) or add an extra $100 for the Aimpoint. The reason I'm willing to pay so much more for the Trijicon than my original budget allowed is that it doesn't require batteries, which is an important feature in my book. I know that the Aimpoints have a really long battery life, but they still use batteries. And I'd hate to have them run out when I needed them most.

Kobra: Looks good, but don't get the emitter window wet. If you do the reticule will look like a X-Mas tree and will be unusable. Battery life also isn't the greatest. Not worth $400.

Aimpoint battery life: Say your ML3 battery lasts for 6 years. In 12 years you'll have gone thru 2 user replaceable batteries with the Aimpoint. With the Trijicon reflex you'll be thinking about buying a new one as the tritium light source will be 1/2 as bright as new. And Trijicon doesn't replace tritium in expired relex sights.

BSW

henschman
November 19, 2011, 04:28 PM
No, Trijicon is not a lower-end optic. But once again the Reflex sits way too high to get a co-witness or to get good cheek weld with the factory stock. Here is a pic of one on an Ultimak with a low-profile mount:
http://ultimak.com/products/rx23inst.jpg

The Kobra is even worse as far as how high it sits.

What I would do is keep an eye out on some gun forums for used Aimpoints. They can be had for the same or less than what that Reflex was going to cost you. Look in the ar15.com equipment exchange, and if you have a local gun forum for people in your state, check it. Those things are so tough that there is very little downside to buying used. You just have to watch out for Chinese knock-offs.

Yeah, I echo what BSW said about batteries versus tritium. Sure the tritium lasts longer than one battery -- it might even last longer than 2, but probably not 3. And it is a lot easier and cheaper to just change out batteries a couple times than it is to get a new tritium lamp. I am just not sold on the battery free red dots. With the Aimpoint you can leave it on 24/7 365, and the battery will still last for years.

RightWing
November 19, 2011, 04:54 PM
I put the Ultimak top rail and a primary arms compact red dot (the t-1 equivalent) on my SAR1. The sight gives a good picture and is very fast that far forward. I'd have to go check but I believe it co-witnesses with the irons. I believe the whole setup cost me less than $200 from Primary Arms.
I don't use the AK that much, but it was a worthwhile upgrade.

benEzra
November 19, 2011, 04:59 PM
Google the kobra red dot sight and you will never look back.
I currently run a Kobra (gen 2) on my SAR-1, but am looking to switch to an Ultimak/red dot in the future. The Kobra reticles are awesome, but the sight is impossible to cowitness with the irons and sits way too high for a good cheek weld. The Gen-2 model is also a bit on the delicate side (broken switch shafts are a common failure mode, and one which I've experienced) and battery life is under 100 hours on the coin cells (not sure what it is on the AA model). So I like the Kobra, but I think an Ultimak-Aimpoint combo (or, on a budget, Ultimak-PA/Vortex/Burris) does have some advantages.

wally
November 19, 2011, 05:00 PM
The lower end optics just don't hold up for anything other than range use.

How many people here really do anything else?


If the SHTF, I'd have no hesitation to grab any one of my "range guns" that have seen 1000's of problem free rounds independent of how much cash I'd sunk into them.

SharpsDressedMan
November 19, 2011, 05:42 PM
Wally, you caught us! We're ALL just armchair commandos! Some of us have just been doing it longer. :D

RatherNotSay
November 19, 2011, 07:32 PM
Seriously...just save up and get the Aimpoint. The lower end optics just don't hold up for anything other than range use.

Are you planing on taking out zombies or something? What PRACTICAL situation are you going to find yourself in that isn't at the range using a red dot? Red dot's are for range and multi gun courses not call of duty modern warfare scenario. True "SHTF" optics should be iron anyway.

SharpsDressedMan
November 19, 2011, 09:19 PM
^^Guess you never noticed the optics being used by our troops in Afghanistan or Iraq? What works at the range will work in combat, as long as it's rugged.

A_Matthew
November 19, 2011, 10:42 PM
Well you just sold me on the Aimpoint over the Reflex... :) But half of me wants to get the Aimpoint, and the other half of me thinks that I won't ever be in a situation where I'll need a $400-500 military quality red dot, so I should just go with a Strikefire or something. Ugh, decisions decisions...:rolleyes:

The one thing I just can't stand is the battery life of most of the red dots (such as the Vortex) when compared with the Aimpoint. :banghead: It just seems ludicrous to buy a red dot sight, and then have to change the battery every couple months. Something tells me I'm going to end up buying the Aimpoint...:cool:

So is it possible to co-witness the Comp C3 with an Ultimak? Or does Midwest Industries make a mount that would allow it to co-witness.

benEzra
November 19, 2011, 11:01 PM
True "SHTF" optics should be iron anyway.
Unless the "SHTF" occurs under less than ideal lighting conditions, or requires nonstandard shooting positions due to cover/obstacles...

Good optics are about as durable as the rifle is, but if the optics do somehow go down, you can always just look through them and use the irons (if cowitnessed), or remove them and use the irons. But dots do have their place on defensive long guns as well, IMO. They are not a requirement by any means, but they do offer real advantages over irons under some conditions.

henschman
November 21, 2011, 12:22 PM
Yeah, a C3 is a tube-body optic, which means you can put it in a low 30mm ring and it will co-witness on the Ultimak.

A_Matthew
November 21, 2011, 03:52 PM
Yeah, a C3 is a tube-body optic, which means you can put it in a low 30mm ring and it will co-witness on the Ultimak.

Thanks, it looks like I'll probably be going with the Aimpoint Comp C3 then. I should probably be able to order it in a few weeks. I'll definitely post some pictures when I get it mounted. Thanks for all your help guys! :)

henschman
November 21, 2011, 05:10 PM
No prob, glad to help a fellow gun guy... and definitely post pics when it is done!

A_Matthew
November 21, 2011, 05:56 PM
and definitely post pics when it is done!

You bet! Like I said before, it'll be a few weeks before I can order it, which also means it'll be a few weeks before I can post pictures. But in the mean time, I'm going to refinish the receiver on my AK, so that'll be a good project to help the time pass... ;)

The Sarge
November 21, 2011, 06:14 PM
I have millet or primary arms on most of my Saiga's.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/sgtgeek/th_SaigaRow001.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/sgtgeek/SaigaRow001.jpg)

Rock solid. Reliable and hold zero.

A_Matthew
November 21, 2011, 06:20 PM
I really like everything about the Primary Arms red dots, except the battery life. Otherwise, that or a Vortex is what I would have gone with.

Gordon
November 22, 2011, 01:27 AM
You can find Aimpoint M2s or C3 on Ebay for just over $200 if you look a while. With the factory Aimpoint low ring it cowitness perfectly! I have used this combo for more than 6 years on a pre ban Feg and cannot come up with anything better. The M3 will work even better and is on my latest Preban M85 Feg, it seems the ultimate combo. I haven't shot it yet as the bolt carrier is getting polished after the Gallil style skull was welded on.

longshot7.62x51
November 22, 2011, 01:33 AM
good choice on the Aimpoint its what i use on my AR and PTR91 comp2s on both

A_Matthew
November 22, 2011, 01:42 AM
So what's the difference between the C3 and the M3? Any noticeable difference?

briansmithwins
November 22, 2011, 12:55 PM
So what's the difference between the C3 and the M3? Any noticeable difference?

Mostly night vision compatability and water proof rated depth.

BSW

A_Matthew
November 22, 2011, 02:47 PM
Okay, thanks. Since I don't need night vision compatibility, and I'm DEFINITELY not going scuba diving with it, then I'll just go with whatever one I find cheaper. :)

230therapy
November 24, 2011, 09:40 PM
not needed

230therapy
November 24, 2011, 09:45 PM
not needed

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