To correct or not to correct?


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The_Next_Generation
November 15, 2011, 08:22 PM
Hey all,

I was on a certain social networking site a few minutes ago, and I saw a picture an acquaintance of mine had posted. He was holding his buddy's AR15 across his chest and upward. I thought "Great! A suburban kid is getting out and experiencing something!". Upon closer inspection of the picture, I realized he had his finger in the trigger guard.

I commented saying, "Finger in the trigger guard..tisk tisk.."

To which he replied, "Empty clip." :banghead:

I happen to know the owner of the rifle (a classmate of mine who recently turned 18), and I am disappointed that the owner didn't correct the finger issue, and that he didn't educate his partner about the difference between a "clip" and "magazine.

Should I respond commenting on how he is the only one who knows if the weapon is loaded or not AND that because of this, "putting your boogerhook on the boomswitch" without aiming in a safe direction is uncouth to say the least?

When is it ok to correct someone? When should you let it slide? When should you stop correcting someone?

I've had this happen a few times and I am sure others have had similar experiences.

Other insight and opinions are great to hear as well!

- The Next Generation

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Solo
November 15, 2011, 08:26 PM
Can't fix everything that you see wrong in life. Unless you're Batman, I suppose.

zoom6zoom
November 15, 2011, 08:28 PM
Yes, you should correct him.

It's a magazine, dammit. ;)

TNboy
November 15, 2011, 08:51 PM
I would just reply with something sarcastic such as "And if it's not you will be the first person ever to accidentally kill someone with an UNLOADED gun." I'm a smart aleck like that though.

mgmorden
November 15, 2011, 09:00 PM
I'd probably take TNboy's advice and come off a bit comical.

Just something like: "Unloaded" guns have killed a lot of people over the years :)

Add the smilies. People love smilies :). (Seriously - it helps to convey emotion in a medium where vocal inflections are absent.)

Bobson
November 15, 2011, 09:08 PM
You corrected the finger on the trigger - I'd leave it at that.

From my experience, people are only ignorant when they choose to be. This guy probably can't care less whether it's a clip or a magazine.

Shawn Dodson
November 15, 2011, 09:13 PM
The most dangerous gun is an "unloaded" gun.

NavyLCDR
November 15, 2011, 09:16 PM
I happen to know the owner of the rifle (a classmate of mine who recently turned 18), and I am disappointed that the owner didn't correct the finger issue, and that he didn't educate his partner about the difference between a "clip" and "magazine.

It's a magazine, dammit.

Really? Hmm... anybody if knowledge of history would know that clip and magazine are really synonymous....

http://www.nraila.org/issues/firearmsglossary/

"CLIP
A device for holding a group of cartridges. Semantic wars have been fought over the word, with some insisting it is not a synonym for "detachable magazine." For 80 years, however, it has been so used by manufacturers and the military. There is no argument that it can also mean a separate device for holding and transferring a group of cartridges to a fixed or detachable magazine or as a device inserted with cartridges into the mechanism of a firearm becoming, in effect, part of that mechanism."

http://www.remington.com/products/accessories/gun-parts/magazine-clips/model-504-magazine-clip.aspx

"Model 504™ Magazine Clip"

http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Accessories/Gun-Parts/504magazine.ashx?w=570&bc=ffffff

For the record, I used to say the same thing, until I educated myself...

Old krow
November 15, 2011, 09:26 PM
I'd probably take TNboy's advice and come off a bit comical.

Just something like: "Unloaded" guns have killed a lot of people over the years

Something like that would work.

BullfrogKen
November 15, 2011, 09:29 PM
You commented on the finger on the trigger.

To which he replied, "Empty clip."


Rather banter about magazine vs clip . . .


He needs to be reminded about Rule #1 - All guns are always loaded.

Jeff Cooper said if we observe three of The Four Rules, the gun could go off and no one would get hurt. But once we break two, all bets are off. If the gun does discharge, only through luck will no one be injured.


Rule one is Rule one for a reason.

Safe gun handling skills are the result of habits, and we build habits through the repetition of behavior. Your friend is building bad habits.


Were it me, I'd be firm about not being around your friend at all when he has a gun until he gets it right in his mind that you can't slough off breaking the Four Rules. I've told family members who had bad gun habits, men twice my age, to put them away or I'd shove it up his keister.

Hossfly68
November 15, 2011, 10:11 PM
"Shove it up his keister"?

You can educate or you can be kinda violent about it and maybe he'll use that finger to pull the trigger. I've stared into the Barrel of a loaded pistol with a finger on the trigger twice. It was being calm that kept me from suffering a 9mm hemorage each time. Now, I've found it easier to simply point out what they're doing wrong and why they should correct it. In that light, here's your advice....
Explain that their finger is on the trigger and , even though you know they checked the chamber for a bullet, you're still uncomfortable with them fingering the trigger. Then, when they look at their own finger like an idiot, smack the living hell out of them with the nearest lamp, look at them on the floor and say, "see stupid? That's dangerous!"
Works every time.. Oh yeah, smile when you do it!

The_Next_Generation
November 15, 2011, 10:16 PM
Verdict is in guys, thanks for the advice.

I replied saying, "I was always told to keep my boogerhook off the boomswitch until ready to fire, and that a gun is always loaded :)"

Figured he'd go for the minor humor, but still realize his error.

BullfrogKen
November 15, 2011, 10:39 PM
"Shove it up his keister"?

Yup.

I think I know the men in my family better than you. One Thanksgiving in particular I'd had enough of my wife's uncle sweeping me with the barrel of his new, pistol-gripped Mossberg. I told him nicely once that I didn't appreciate it, and not to do it again.


Of course, he didn't have the habit engrained, because he didn't pay any mind to his behavior with a gun. And he gave no pause to his behavior because his mindset was "well, it's not loaded".


When he did it the second time, not even a minute later, I was done being polite and tactful.

THR would filter out the actual language I used, but keister will suffice.


Just the instant I finished dressing him down, my wife walked out to tell us dinner was ready. She heard him say, "Well, it's not loaded." To which she said, "Rick, all guns are always loaded, so don't point yours at my husband. You ought to know better than that. Now put the guns away and come inside to eat."

:D

hso
November 15, 2011, 11:30 PM
Forget the magazine vs. clip issue and focus on the 4 safety rules.

Simply point out that good habits produce good results and bad habits can produce bad results. Being at all casual about having your finger on the trigger is a bad habit. Considering the possible consequences it isn't one you can afford to be lax about.

Don't hammer him and don't be insulting, he's a noob. You just want to approach it from the standpoint of passing on good advice.

Cal-gun Fan
November 16, 2011, 01:29 AM
Agreed on the 4 safety rules...do we really need to be so nitpicky about the magazine vs. clip issue? Sure, one is correct...but its not a big deal, honestly.

bruzer
November 16, 2011, 02:16 AM
I was handling a gun with one of my good friends. He told me that he never ever puts his finger on or around the trigger until he is on target and ready to fire. I don't really know if my finger was on the trigger but I believe it was his way of letting me know right from wrong. I have heard stories about empty guns shooting people so I make sure my finger is off the trigger.
Mike

Sav .250
November 16, 2011, 07:08 AM
If your comfortable about your comment...... that`s all that matters.

Hk Dan
November 16, 2011, 07:37 AM
1) Clips go in a magazine, magazines go in a gun. Not synonymous.

2) Tell him the next time you see his finger on a trigger the next time he'll see the gun will be at the proctologist's office as they remove it from a certain bodily orifice that should be marked "Exit only".

No excuses, stupidity kills.

Caliper_RWVA
November 16, 2011, 08:12 AM
Really? Hmm... anybody if knowledge of history would know that clip and magazine are really synonymous....

Actually, anyone with a knowledge of firearms history would say that they are NOT synonomous. Magazines were originally not detachabale and the clip was only something used to load the magazine. Nobody handling a 1895 Mauser would call the magazine a clip.

I will however accept that the English language grows and changes and that the two words are now used interchangably by many. Manufacturers are likely to use both terms in their descriptions so that customers googling their product are more likely to find it (and buy it).

I will tell people the difference if they are interested, but not make a bother arguing and correcting people because I have better things to do with my life. Being as I have both clip loaded and magazine loaded weapons, I keep the two terms seperate when I use them.

Cop Bob
November 16, 2011, 09:22 AM
All guns are loaded... ALL THE TIME... no such thing as an unloaded gun for the purpose of handling... if it is in your hands, treat it as if it were loaded... then, now, and ALWAYS....

If the weapon is static, MY preference is that the magazine be out, slide, or bolt back/open and in the case of the AR platform, the dust cover open so the we can see the open bolt...

And YES, that straighten finger laid along side the action...

Famous last words....."I THOUGHT it was unloaded" I have seen the aftermath bad assumptions with firearms.... it is never good...

Yes correct the finger,,, the Mag/clip thing.... save that for a later lesson so that the feeble minded are not over taxed....

jrhines
November 16, 2011, 10:06 AM
Russian gun safety proverb relayed to me by an ex-prison guard (Siberian prison), while I was working in Armenia.

Hossfly68
November 16, 2011, 11:08 AM
I still think it'd be funnier to smack him with a lamp and then tell him, "I told you it was dangerous". :D
Might put a damper on Thanksgiving dinner though..

youngda9
November 16, 2011, 11:11 AM
Only if you want to be "that guy" :)

ErikO
November 16, 2011, 11:32 AM
This definately sounds like a teachable moment.

Skribs
November 16, 2011, 11:46 AM
There's a difference between holding a weapon like that for everyday use and holding a weapon like that for a photo. I get annoyed when I watch videos on youtube and they go through the whole safety check on camera. I can assume you safety checked it before you started recording, and it would save time on the video.

There's safe, and then there's paranoid. Yes, I agree, that if someone is holding a weapon IRL, I want it either in a safe direction or where I have made sure it is safe. But I'm not about to correct every photo, where the guy probably safety checked the weapon 2 seconds before the picture was taken, was standing still during the photo, and could easily have taken his finger off the trigger guard once the flash wore off.

Seriously, if you start attacking this guy based off of the picture, all you're going to do is spark an unneeded argument.

outdoorsman1
November 16, 2011, 12:01 PM
I totally agree with that 4 rules shoould be discussed, and as you have already made the decision what to say, I will leave that alone but...

Based on his responce to your using humor to make a point, if given another oppoertunity by his responce, I would let him know in no uncertain terms (not humor), that the ONLY time a finger should be on the trigger is seconds before the firearm is actually fired. Pictures, videos, whatever, the finger has no reason to be on the trigger. As far as his reply of the empty clip (Mag.), I do not own that type of firearm (yet) so please forgive my ignorance, but as in a semi-auto handgun, could not the Mag. be empty with a round still in the chamber...??? If yes, then that would be a good comeback to his next responce.... Bottom line, firearm handling is a SERIOUS business and any part of it taken lightly could get someone killed....

Outdoorsman1

Edited to add:...

Skribs said...

Snip..

There's a difference between holding a weapon like that for everyday use and holding a weapon like that for a photo.

I disagree, any weapon should "be held" in an identical way no matter why the weapon is being held....

Just Sayin....

ErikO
November 16, 2011, 12:18 PM
When the bolt is in the receiver, the gun is loaded.

Ringolevio
November 16, 2011, 12:29 PM
My dad and uncles, when speaking of their experiences in WW2, seemed to always refer to their sidearms as loading with a "clip". But then they also referred to the sidearm itself as a ".45 Automatic".

Nowadays, however, we make the distinction between "automatic" and "semi-automatic", and we refer to that particular handgun design as a 1911. Similarly, we distinguish between a magazine and a clip, just as we distinguish between bullets and cartridges.

Using proper nomenclature is one more way of exhibiting one's mastery of a subject or a skillset. So, among the ways that serious pistoleros and fusileros can be distinguished from the tyros are: calling a magazine a magazine, indexing and observing muzzle discipline.

I've all but given up on correcting others' sloppiness in spoken and written English (except of course in my role as a proofreader and editor), even though I often find such errors extremely irksome. But, unlike with firearms, carelessness and ignorance in speech and writing are not matters of life and death.

Ranger30-06
November 16, 2011, 12:36 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=152862&stc=1&d=1321464872

:D

Besides that, unloaded guns are the most dangerous ones. People slip into a sense of relaxation and this is when the ND's strike most.

mljdeckard
November 16, 2011, 12:37 PM
When my friends post shooting pics, I pretty much always either remind them of which of the four rules they are breaking or thank them for being safe.

Skribs
November 16, 2011, 12:41 PM
I disagree, any weapon should "be held" in an identical way no matter why the weapon is being held....

Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies? I'm not talking about the characters holding the guns wrong, but about the actors actually pointing guns at other people? It's the same thing. The finger on the trigger adds drama and action to the photograph, and can be done safely if you simply check the weapon before taking the picture.

Ranger30-06
November 16, 2011, 12:46 PM
Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies? I'm not talking about the characters holding the guns wrong, but about the actors actually pointing guns at other people? It's the same thing. The finger on the trigger adds drama and action to the photograph, and can be done safely if you simply check the weapon before taking the picture.
"I checked" isn't an excuse for stupidity, especially around other people.

Hollywood is Hollywood, and we all know that 3/4 of them know next to nothing about gun safety to begin with. That also is no excuse for something as simple as keeping your finger off of the trigger.

outdoorsman1
November 16, 2011, 12:55 PM
Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies? I'm not talking about the characters holding the guns wrong, but about the actors actually pointing guns at other people? It's the same thing. The finger on the trigger adds drama and action to the photograph, and can be done safely if you simply check the weapon before taking the picture.
Oh.. you mean like this

www.thecrow.info/accident.htm

Outdoorsman1

StrutStopper
November 16, 2011, 01:38 PM
You could post a video clip of the famous "I'm the only one qualified" video of the DEA agent shooting himself with an unloaded gun in front of a class full of kids...

BullfrogKen
November 16, 2011, 02:40 PM
Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies? I'm not talking about the characters holding the guns wrong, but about the actors actually pointing guns at other people? It's the same thing. The finger on the trigger adds drama and action to the photograph, and can be done safely if you simply check the weapon before taking the picture.

Yes, I do. I think Hollywood is a destructive force in many different ways, and when I see poor, sloppy, unsafe, or stupid gun handling in a movie I notice it. My wife does, too. And depending on the context I probably won't like it.


But I don't care what pop culture thinks, and the whole image thing.


Want to impress me? Take a picture holding the rifle in a safe manner, displaying some safe gun handling. Unless you're doing some marketing work that requires pointing guns at people with fingers on the trigger, I have no tolerance for it in photographs. It doesn't look bad-ass. It doesn't look cool.



The coolest pictures I saw were of a couple SEAL teams taken over the years, hanging on the walls of a bed-and-breakfast in the middle of Nowhere, central Virginia. The Teams rented the property and outbuildings, stayed there and did land nav and E&E in the mountains for a few weeks. The group pictures had the guys holding all manner of exotic weaponry. No magazines in the weapons. No fingers on triggers. Everything pointed in a safe direction.


Those were cool pictures.


Guys posturing and posting that stuff on their Facebook pages. I'm not impressed. I've seen plenty of firearms, and bragging to show me what you spent your money on does nothing for me. While I don't go looking for an argument if you direct my attention to it, I'll comment on the gun handling you decided to show off, good or bad.

Impress me with pictures of your targets, your match results, and showing some safe gun handling when you snap a picture showing what you used to post some good scores.

Skribs
November 16, 2011, 03:46 PM
"I checked" isn't an excuse for stupidity, especially around other people.

If the gun actually was loaded, it's stupid. If the gun is not loaded, it is temporarily suspending one of the redundant safety rules for the sake of art.

Yes, I do. I think Hollywood is a destructive force in many different ways, and when I see poor, sloppy, unsafe, or stupid gun handling in a movie I notice it.

I'm not even referring to this. What I am referring to is a suspenseful shot where the bad guy puts a gun up to the good guy's head. In the context of reality, these guys probably get along, and so in no way would the actor playing the bad guy point a gun at the other actor in any other environment. However, for the sake of the action shot, he has to. Other safety precautions are followed, but he is still pointing a firearm at his buddy.

The Crow was a tragedy, but how often does that really happen?

The-Reaver
November 16, 2011, 03:54 PM
Yeah go ahead and correct him.
You should treat every firearm as if it where loaded no matter what.
And finger off the trigger until your ready to engage.

outdoorsman1
November 16, 2011, 04:01 PM
If the gun actually was loaded, it's stupid. If the gun is not loaded, it is temporarily suspending one of the redundant safety rules for the sake of art.



I'm not even referring to this. What I am referring to is a suspenseful shot where the bad guy puts a gun up to the good guy's head. In the context of reality, these guys probably get along, and so in no way would the actor playing the bad guy point a gun at the other actor in any other environment. However, for the sake of the action shot, he has to. Other safety precautions are followed, but he is still pointing a firearm at his buddy.

The Crow was a tragedy, but how often does that really happen?
Snip..
If the gun actually was loaded, it's stupid. If the gun is not loaded, it is temporarily suspending one of the redundant safety rules for the sake of art.


WOW... how do I say this nicely....your thoughts on this is really scary.. If you feel this way then maybe you should re-think handling firearms around other people...

Snip
The Crow was a tragedy, but how often does that really happen?


A single tragedy is still a tragedy.. and by insinuating that it is ok to handle a firearm in an unsafe manner simply because a "tragedy does not "happen" "often" just reinforce's my feeling above + 1000....

Like I said... WOW...

Ok, I have said what I needed to say, so I will finish by also saying...

Just Sayin...

Outdoorsman1

BullfrogKen
November 16, 2011, 04:07 PM
The Crow was a tragedy, but how often does that really happen?

How often does it need to happen?

Negligent discharges do happen. I've seen them with happen with my own eyes. Sometimes no one gets hurt. Occasionally an injury occurs. And rarely someone dies.

But negligent discharges are too damn common. Suggesting that, well, you know, since deaths don't happen all that often , it's ok to do stupid things once in a while . . . that's a very reckless mindset to have.


for the sake of art

Pictures on Facebook and social media are now art? Get serious.


Actors using guns on television are not using live guns. Those are stage guns. Prop guns.

Besides, what do I care about the images Hollywood portrays with guns? I've found very few movies that portray gun ownership in a positive light, anyway. I care more about that than whether their movies portray safe gun handling in them.


I do care about what real people do with real guns. Especially when I or anyone I care about is nearby.

If I see someone I know goofing around and post a stupid "posture-picture" up on his Facebook page, you better believe when I see him out on the range I'll be paying extra attention to how he handles his guns while he's there. And we've got no problem kicking someone out of a match who can't seem to apply the Four Rules.

Skribs
November 16, 2011, 07:03 PM
Some movies use stage guns, some use live guns with stage ammo. That is what happened in The Crow - the gun had real bullets instead of blanks. What matters to me is that in thousands of movies where guns are used, pointed at other people, and have the trigger pulled (either with blanks, or just an empty chamber and CGI reports added in after), there is only one occurance to my knowledge of this happening, where an AD occured and the person was shot. However, in those movies, the ACTORS were using "unsafe" methods to portray what you would really do - point the weapon at your enemy.

If you have read about The Crow tragedy, as I have, you will read how strict the guidelines are for securing firearms that are being used in movies, and how inconceviable it is that the actor was shot. So yes, you can still be safe while ignoring 1 rule. That's because gun safety isn't about the rules, it's about using your brain to prevent an ND. The reason there is a rule against putting your finger in the trigger guard is to prevent a twitch, fall, etc. from pulling the trigger. However, if the gun is empty (which could have been verified seconds ago), and you are standing still - then an accidently pull is unlikely, and an AD in that scenario is impossible.

Pictures on Facebook and social media are now art? Get serious.

It may not be picasso or de vinci, but it is art in the way a painted portrait of yourself in 1780 was art. It is a moment of your life frozen in time, and the person wants to add the drama of the finger on the trigger. It is a statement that he has a weapon and is willing to pull the trigger.

If you feel this way then maybe you should re-think handling firearms around other people...

I have never had an AD/ND. I make sure I know whether a firearm is loaded when it is handed to me, and treat it accordingly. Since all my firearms are always loaded, it's pretty easy for me. However, after unloading a firearm and verifying that it is unloaded, I do understand that no fairies or leprachauns snuck a bullet into the chamber while it was still in my hand.

I understand the rules, and I know why they exist. I'm also smart enough to know when I'm being safe and when I'm being paranoid.

outdoorsman1
November 16, 2011, 07:26 PM
Skribs said...

That's because gun safety isn't about the rules, it's about using your brain to prevent an ND. The reason there is a rule against putting your finger in the trigger guard is to prevent a twitch, fall, etc. from pulling the trigger.

So yes, you can still be safe while ignoring 1 rule.

Also said..

I understand the rules, and I know why they exist.

Seems kinda contradicting to me....

Also said...

I'm also smart enough to know when I'm being safe and when I'm being paranoid.


Ok... good for you... but... If being "paranoid" keeps me "safe" (ALIVE) then I guess I will go with "paranoid"...

I can see that we disagree on these issues aand no matter what either one of us says, neither are going to change there minds so I guess all I have left to say is... Good Luck with your way of thinking... and...don't take just my word for it.. maybe read some of the other posts regarding your past statements... I know, I know, you have already read them....

Finally, GUN SAFTEY IS ABOUT THE RULES.....

Nuff said...

Outdoorsman1

Skribs
November 16, 2011, 08:13 PM
Gun safety is about preventing ADs/NDs, and preventing those shots which are taken from hitting targets you did not intend to hit. How many people will say "get a good holster if you're going to carry a handgun"? Guess what - it's NOT a rule, but the #1 reason I see reported as being the cause of an AD/ND is a lack of a holster, or problems with the shirt/strap when holstering a gun.

So, if "gun safety is about the rules" is true, then how do you explain people who follow the "4 rules" but have NDs for other reasons?

Similarly, one of the recommended methods of practicing on a revolver is to put in snap caps and dry fire in your home. Not only do you put your finger in the trigger guard without intending to fire, you pull the trigger! How is assuming there is a snap cap any different from assuming the chamber is empty? It isn't. And yes - people have had NDs assuming they have snap caps in their gun.

So, I intend to not fire my revolver with snap caps in, but I do put my finger in the guard. Am I breaking a rule? No, because I expect there to be a plastic dud. Similarly, while posing for a picture, someone may have just done a chamber check and KNOW that the chamber is empty. Therefore, even if they are not preparing to fire - they are ready for the hammer to fall on an empty chamber.

Note that I am not advocating walking around every day with your finger in the guard. I am just saying that for the sake of a picture, with an empty gun, you can easily put your finger in the guard for 3 seconds, snap the photo, and go about your day safely.

Back to the OP, you have a snapshot of what the person did. You do not know whether or not he checked the weapon, or how he normally holds it when is not POSING. You pose for pictures differently than you would actually hold yourself in most situations. If you start asking questions, he's going to get defensive and upset. If you attack him, seriously or smart-alecky, he's going to get upset. You might feel high and mighty about your safety smarts, but the real goal, if you want to make sure he follows your safety rules, isn't going to be accomplished. If you do this publicly, it also makes you look like a jerk, and makes gun nuts look like "rule nazis".

If you really think he's being unsafe and want to see what he's like with a gun outside of a picture, spend some time with him and see. At that point, you can bring up your concerns. But a fight on facebook isn't going to win you any friends, and it's going to make you look like an elitist. People aren't going to want to talk guns with you for fear of being overcorrected ("OMG its a magazine, not a clip"), and RKBA suffers.

Yes, preventing AD/ND is good for RKBA, because it presents us as aware of the dangers of firearms and firearms as having the potential to be safe in the right hands. But it's bad for RKBA if you don't do it with tact - because then you just push people away.

BullfrogKen
November 16, 2011, 08:32 PM
Look, there are times when we will knowingly break the rules. And when it is appropriate I am OK with that.


There is a difference between being Mastered by the Rules and being a Master of the Rules.


During Force on Force training, we use guns with Simunitions rounds. There is a risk, and people have died when someone thought a gun still had Sim rounds and used it. But good FoF controls have a protocol that will make the risk negligible. When you decide to knowingly break the Rules, you do it for a good damn reason. In fact, when we've done it, we had protocols that were almost ceremonial in the ridigity of the process.


I think I'm just going to have to disagree over when it's OK to break a rule, and when it's not. Odds are, I'd wager the guy in the OP's photo doesn't have Rule 3 ingrained as a habit anyway. But either way I'm not into doing nonsense like that just for a MyFace picture.


I can see that we disagree on these issues and no matter what either one of us says, neither are going to change there minds

I'm in agreement.

I guess someone can do whatever he wants in his own home, when I'm not nearby. But I have no tolerance for displaying a lackadaisical regard towards safe gun handling in my presence. And if someone horses around with a gun in his hand he can either put it away, or take his gun and both of them can go away.

I'm still not going to budge on thinking unsafe pose-pics on social media is an appropriate time to break the Four Rules. Call me a Curmudgeon. Oh well.

orionengnr
November 16, 2011, 08:45 PM
Forget the magazine vs. clip issue and focus on the 4 safety rules.
Bingo.
Show him some pics of GIs and note that their trigger fingers are always extended straight forward. Tactfully find a way to get the point across that professionals do it one way...the right way...every time.

Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies?No, because I quit giving those stinking Socialist Hollywood @#$%s my money years ago. Last movie I watched was Forest Gump. I don't even watch movies on TV.

EvilGenius
November 16, 2011, 09:05 PM
I treat firearms like many older cultures treated swords.

They were to be respected and used in an honorable fashion, always.

Putting your finger on the trigger when you're not ready to pull it shows a lack of respect and discipline. Both of which are not honorable, especially when done intentionally for bravado's sake.

To each their own, but if you choose to behave in such a manner dont expect to be taken seriously.

Jim Watson
November 16, 2011, 09:15 PM
I agree that safety should be pushed, even on the internet. Else the next DumbTube video might be somebody ELSE shooting himself.

But I sure wish I had a database that would tell me every time somebody who feels compelled to explain the difference between "clip" and "magazine" had made some other and possibly more significant technical gaffe. For some reason I am particularly annoyed by people with .308" "bores" in their 7.62xwhatthehellever rifles.

Skribs
November 17, 2011, 03:33 PM
I think I'm just going to have to disagree over when it's OK to break a rule, and when it's not.

I can agree with that.

There is a difference between being Mastered by the Rules and being a Master of the Rules.

I can especially agree with this, and this is the point I was trying to make. I keep my finger off the trigger because I understand that if my finger is inside the trigger guard, and I should twitch, make a fist, trip, have an earthquake hit, etc, that my finger may potentially pull the trigger, hence the Rule about it.
I do not keep my finger off the trigger guard because "it's a rule".

I agree that safety should be pushed, even on the internet.

It depends on how its done. If you do it in a holier-than-thou manner, then it may turn people OFF to listening to you, and thus hurt safety. "RULES RULES RULES RULES RULES!" won't help anyone if nobody listens because you shove them down their throats.

Matthew Courtney
November 17, 2011, 04:01 PM
Really? Hmm... anybody if knowledge of history would know that clip and magazine are really synonymous....

http://www.nraila.org/issues/firearmsglossary/

"CLIP
A device for holding a group of cartridges. Semantic wars have been fought over the word, with some insisting it is not a synonym for "detachable magazine." For 80 years, however, it has been so used by manufacturers and the military. There is no argument that it can also mean a separate device for holding and transferring a group of cartridges to a fixed or detachable magazine or as a device inserted with cartridges into the mechanism of a firearm becoming, in effect, part of that mechanism."

http://www.remington.com/products/accessories/gun-parts/magazine-clips/model-504-magazine-clip.aspx

"Model 504™ Magazine Clip"

http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Accessories/Gun-Parts/504magazine.ashx?w=570&bc=ffffff

For the record, I used to say the same thing, until I educated myself...
While magazine and clip are not complete synonyms, in reference to the detachable ammunition feeding device used in AR-15 and other similar firearms, either word is appropriate.

Generally, a clip holds things together, such as paper clips, hair clips, ect. In the specific usage, an ammo clip holds cartridges together for loading a firearm.

A magazine is something in which munitions are stored. They can be ammunition feeding devices in which munitions may be kept, buildings used to store munitions, or even rooms or closets where munitions are kept.

With respect to safety, a gentle reminder that one's trigger finger belongs beside the frame of an AR until one's muzzle is on target and one has decided that it is appropriate to shoot.

Shawn Dodson
November 17, 2011, 10:40 PM
Generally, a clip holds things together, such as...

...an M1 Garand en-bloc "clip", which is inserted into the "magazine" of the rifle:

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/rifle/8/1288258651.jpg

MyGreenGuns
November 18, 2011, 04:01 AM
The clip/mag thing, I would let go.

Finger on the trigger? Thats a no no.

I've taken some pix with my guns. Some of them have gotten me lectured. My xbox profile is me pointing the shotgun at the camera. Someone asked who the poor sap holding the camera was. Answer: Noone, it was taken with the timer. I have another one holding a pistol. In my pic you can see a magazine is loaded in the gun. Posing with a gun that has no mag is like posing with a car that has no wheels. Closer inspection shows the striker is down, you have to cycle the slide to cock the gun, clearly there is not a round in the gun.

All my pix were taken with an unloaded gun, pointed in a safe direction, with my finger off the trigger. When I see pictures with a finger on the trigger, I always assume that person does NOT know gun safety. Be safe when you pose for pix. To the untrained you still look cool, to the gun people, they know you probably know what you are doing.

Someone posted that they hated seeing someone clear a gun on the "YooToob". That made me laugh. I was at my big brothers house and we (me +2 brothers) were checking out his new toys. We were passing guns around in a circle checking them out. I watched my oldest brother clear each gun, and tell us about it. When he passed it to my younger brother, HE cleared it, and looked at it. I did the same when it was passed to me. When I handed it back to my elder bro, he cleared it again. Ammo is stored in another room, all that checking was "unnecessary", but I felt safer knowing they follow the same rules as I do. I remember laughing inside thinking that this would make a good "YooToob" vid about safe weapons handling.

Zach S
November 18, 2011, 09:35 AM
Bad habits with unloaded guns lead to NDs.

It doesn't matter if have my 1911 detail stripped for an (overdue) cleaning, I still index my finger along the frame. Trigger discipline also applies to my drills, sawzall, grinder, etc.

Having been in the OP's situation, I did call my friend out on his lack of trigger finger discipline, and then corrected him on the "clip" as well.

Do you cringe about gun safety when you watch movies?
Yes, actually... I think its sad that a the characters in a Japanese cartoon have better trigger discipline than most of Hollywood.

EvilGenius
November 18, 2011, 10:44 AM
Yes, actually... I think its sad that a the characters in a Japanese cartoon have better trigger discipline than most of Hollywood.

Same thing happens to me. I find myself yelling at the TV/screen for not just trigger discipline but also characters seem to flag te hell out of each other with a "loaded" gun.

Can turn me off a show or movie real quick if they're too sloppy about it.

thorazine
November 18, 2011, 01:44 PM
When is it ok to correct someone? When should you let it slide? When should you stop correcting someone?

Anytime necessary.
Never.
The day you die.

Ignition Override
November 20, 2011, 12:28 AM
An "unloaded" Mini 14 which was picked up from a gun show table injured three people early this year. It reportedly was brought in the previous night.

One of the three was seriously injured, and it is doubtful that both the seller and rifle handler were new to guns.

Your friend probably wouldn't relate to this hint of what can easily happen.

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