CCW for pre 1898 guns?


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Dr.Mall Ninja
November 16, 2011, 08:39 AM
I was looking at different laws and like I could carry a 1898 or older handgun without a permit. Could anybody verify this? Its just out of curiosity.

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Sam1911
November 16, 2011, 09:20 AM
If you read the MO laws listed here: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap571.htm, the state defines "firearm" as, "(8) "Firearm", any weapon that is designed or adapted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive."

The law goes on to state that it is illegal to carry a firearm loaded concealed about the person except with exceptions -- one of which is that the carrier holds a license to carry.

The law does define antique firearms, as you're describing, but I don't see any exemption in the law against carrying concealed firearms for antiques.

Tommygunn
November 16, 2011, 12:51 PM
IMHO there's a confusion about this because these old guns are not "defined" as firearms, which is a federal regulation and involves how these get shipped. I can mail order a cap & ball revolver and it will be delivered from Michigan to Alabama by UPS, for example, while a modern Sig Sauer P220 can't; I have to go to the gunstore and buy it face to face in my own state and fill out the appropriate paperwork & so forth.
However, in carrying a gun on one's person, that is a matter for the local and/or state laws, and those don't distinguish a Colt 1848 Wells Fargo from a Sig P238. A gun is a gun is a gun.

Sam1911
November 16, 2011, 12:58 PM
...these old guns are not "defined" as firearms, which is a federal regulation... Under FEDERAL law they are not defined as firearms. That definition only applies to FEDERAL laws.

But a state can define legal terms on its own, and the state of MO does have such a list of definitions (in the link above), and they specifically define both firearm and antique firearm. For the purposes of this law, the state's definition of "firearm" does appear to include antques.

However, in carrying a gun on one's person, that is a matter for the local and/or state laws, and those don't distinguish a Colt 1848 Wells Fargo from a Sig P238. A gun is a gun is a gun. Some states do and some don't, but MO appears to fall into the group that don't.

If a state wants to put in it's list of definitions that a BB gun or a slingshot is a "firearm," they may do so. If their laws then go on to say that carrying a "firearm" is illegal, then carrying a slingshot or BB gun is illegal under that law -- regardless of what the federal definitions of firearm might be.

hermannr
November 16, 2011, 02:42 PM
As has been stated, some states just use "propelled by an explosion" type definition. and you also need to be careful with other terms also.

as in WA state: in F&W law and regulation, a "firearm" is only a rifle or shotgun (RCW 77) whereas in the concealed carry law, a firearm is only a pistol (RCW 9.41) even though they both use the "propelled by an explosion" statement.

NYS penal code is really bad about changing definitions also.

Owen Sparks
November 17, 2011, 12:39 AM
Don't confuse federal laws that don't apply with state and local laws, many of which have been on the books since the black powder era.

EOD Guy
November 17, 2011, 01:51 PM
Another term some States use, including California, is "dangerous weapon" which would include antique firearms.

Carl N. Brown
November 17, 2011, 03:55 PM
Antique, cap'n'ball and muzzleloader firearms may be exempt from parts of the federal law on transfer of ownership of firearms, but that does not mean local laws on carrying weapons does not regard them as weapons.

Carrying a cane or baton as a weapon of offense (or of defense without certification of training from a licensed martial arts instructor) is illegally "going armed", much less carrying an antique firearm with intent to use as a weapon. My state's "going armed" statute has a list of specific weapons and a catch-all basicly covering anything carried with intent to use as a weapon.

fal762x51
November 17, 2011, 05:20 PM
Under FEDERAL law they are not defined as firearms. That definition only applies to FEDERAL laws.

You might want to think more about that. I do not recommend walking into a Federal courthouse or post office with a gun made in 1898 and think the feds are not going to consider that a firearm.

Sam1911
November 17, 2011, 05:30 PM
If you read Section 930 that describes the offense, it mentions "firearms and dangerous weapons."

It goes on to define "dangerous weapon" thus:
(2) The term ``dangerous weapon'' means a weapon, device,
instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is
used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily
injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a
blade of less than 2\1/2\ inches in length.


So, even though a cap & ball revolver isn't a "firearm" under federal law, you're still prohibited from carrying it in a federal facility.

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