orangeninja
January 31, 2004, 10:51 PM
Which of the following would you do and why?
After a shooting in a self defense situation...
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P95Carry
January 31, 2004, 11:03 PM
I would not expect to be particularly calm after such an event .. and the last thing I'd wish to do is blather some garbled ''explanation'' immediately to any cops. ...... rather (so chose #1) .. would prefer to get straight in touch with legal help. Time then to settle down a bit and try and reconstruct the whole series of events.
Others maybe consider they would be calm and rational .... for me .. I doubt I'd be too good at all. ''Shakes'' at very least!
Others maybe consider they would be calm and rational .... for me .. I doubt I'd be too good at all. ''Shakes'' at very least!
Andrew Rothman
January 31, 2004, 11:05 PM
"He attacked me. There is the evidence. I am willing to sign a complaint. I need to talk to my lawyer before I say anything else."
- Joel Rosenberg (joelr here), Everything You Need to Know About (Legally) Carrying a Handgun in Minnesota (http://www.ellegon.com/features/data/orderingthebook/)
- Joel Rosenberg (joelr here), Everything You Need to Know About (Legally) Carrying a Handgun in Minnesota (http://www.ellegon.com/features/data/orderingthebook/)
tc300mag1
January 31, 2004, 11:06 PM
In our Class we were instructed by a lawyer to give the police the basics like came though do with gun i shot him .. not how many times or how long the whole deal took etc etc just the basics. Wait till your lawyer shows up to get to the spefics which you lawyer will tell you to wait 4-5 hours to do.
The police who taught this class even reccomend the same course of action. Hopefully i will never have to but thats what i will plan on doing if i ever have to defend myself with my gun
The police who taught this class even reccomend the same course of action. Hopefully i will never have to but thats what i will plan on doing if i ever have to defend myself with my gun
Jim Diver
February 1, 2004, 02:47 AM
As I trust the police as far as I can throw them, they only get these words from me : I want my lawyer NOW!
Chuck Jennings
February 1, 2004, 03:15 AM
"Officer, I was in fear for my life!! Before I say anything else, I would like to speak to a lawyer."
marklbucla
February 1, 2004, 03:49 AM
This doesn't specifically address your question as stated but in shows like "The Practice", the prosecution seems to consider calling a lawyer before the police a sign that you know you did something wrong and weren't in the right. I don't know how well these shows model reality, but it would make sense that this order of action would raise questions.
labgrade
February 1, 2004, 06:31 AM
Voted = no statement whatsoever & I want a lawyer now (please & thank you).
Only instance I've ever had far as being accosted by The Man was this past summer. I had a handgun, I surprised the cops on-scene (didn't know cops were even there yet), they freaked, all pointed guns at my chest, shaclked me up, & threw me in a patrol car.
No charges stated (at the time), no rights/Miranda read, request for a lawyer was denied, request for a phone call = denied - still held for over 7 hours. Repeated phone calls from The Wife = nope! you can't talk to him.
Granted, this was a "crime" of "scaring a cop" - not smokin' a bad guy, but for every encounter I have with The Man lately, the less I trust 'em.
Only instance I've ever had far as being accosted by The Man was this past summer. I had a handgun, I surprised the cops on-scene (didn't know cops were even there yet), they freaked, all pointed guns at my chest, shaclked me up, & threw me in a patrol car.
No charges stated (at the time), no rights/Miranda read, request for a lawyer was denied, request for a phone call = denied - still held for over 7 hours. Repeated phone calls from The Wife = nope! you can't talk to him.
Granted, this was a "crime" of "scaring a cop" - not smokin' a bad guy, but for every encounter I have with The Man lately, the less I trust 'em.
orangeninja
February 1, 2004, 08:19 AM
"Wait till your lawyer shows up to get to the spefics which you lawyer will tell you to wait 4-5 hours to do."
We were instructed in the academy to do the same thing as Police Officers. We were told to ask for coffee, a place to rest and told not to talk to anyone, not even our partners, about what just happend. The reason why is, because everything you say WILL be used AGAINST you in court, even as a cop.
I would not disrespect the police, since they can make charges against you as well. I would say, "he attacked me, I defended myself. I need a minute, may I call my lawyer?" That is how you should leave it, let the evidence speak for itself. NEVER get into specifics and they legally CANNOT ask you anything else after you ask for an attorney.
I am the kind of person that when they get nervous, they start talking a lot. About anything. I do it when I give blood because I am scared of needles even. When the Police arrive, the best thing to do is issolate yourself or talk about unrelated stuff. The police will probably "issolate" you in the back of a car.
When the police arrive on the scene, DO NOT have your gun in your hand. Try to reholster and keep it at the holstered ready, which is hand on the butt if your assailant is still moving or you are not sure if they are still with us.
This brings me to a question......do you think those "Concealed Weapons Permit" badges you see advertised were meant for this moment?
Its kind of a good idea if for no other reason than it makes the cops take a second look at you before drawing down or some excited rookie inadvertantly popping one off at you.
We were instructed in the academy to do the same thing as Police Officers. We were told to ask for coffee, a place to rest and told not to talk to anyone, not even our partners, about what just happend. The reason why is, because everything you say WILL be used AGAINST you in court, even as a cop.
I would not disrespect the police, since they can make charges against you as well. I would say, "he attacked me, I defended myself. I need a minute, may I call my lawyer?" That is how you should leave it, let the evidence speak for itself. NEVER get into specifics and they legally CANNOT ask you anything else after you ask for an attorney.
I am the kind of person that when they get nervous, they start talking a lot. About anything. I do it when I give blood because I am scared of needles even. When the Police arrive, the best thing to do is issolate yourself or talk about unrelated stuff. The police will probably "issolate" you in the back of a car.
When the police arrive on the scene, DO NOT have your gun in your hand. Try to reholster and keep it at the holstered ready, which is hand on the butt if your assailant is still moving or you are not sure if they are still with us.
This brings me to a question......do you think those "Concealed Weapons Permit" badges you see advertised were meant for this moment?
Its kind of a good idea if for no other reason than it makes the cops take a second look at you before drawing down or some excited rookie inadvertantly popping one off at you.
labgrade
February 1, 2004, 08:52 AM
" ... because everything you say WILL be used AGAINST you in court, even as a cop."
Except the cops DO talk amongst themselves & will lie each other up - to protet themselves.
Trust me.
I was one & The Cops lie-up just as much as the "criminals" do - merely to not make themselves look like *********s before the judge - just like the "bad guys" do.
Only difference between cops & the bad-guys is the badge - one has "the power of," the other doesn't.
Cops are folks, just like you & me, & they lie to cover their tracks just as much as any other unhonerable scum would do.
...and they legally CANNOT ask you anything else after you ask for an attorney."
& if they never allow you even a phone call to an attorney!? & charges were never even pressed!? & hold one for over 7 hours !?
Total BS!
Cops are the biggest, baddest F'ing, populace-funded street-gang on the planet & you had better have your s#it wired very tight if you ever cross 'em.
Best case, if you do = you're looking at a close-to $10K suite just to prove that what they did to you really didn't happen.
Except the cops DO talk amongst themselves & will lie each other up - to protet themselves.
Trust me.
I was one & The Cops lie-up just as much as the "criminals" do - merely to not make themselves look like *********s before the judge - just like the "bad guys" do.
Only difference between cops & the bad-guys is the badge - one has "the power of," the other doesn't.
Cops are folks, just like you & me, & they lie to cover their tracks just as much as any other unhonerable scum would do.
...and they legally CANNOT ask you anything else after you ask for an attorney."
& if they never allow you even a phone call to an attorney!? & charges were never even pressed!? & hold one for over 7 hours !?
Total BS!
Cops are the biggest, baddest F'ing, populace-funded street-gang on the planet & you had better have your s#it wired very tight if you ever cross 'em.
Best case, if you do = you're looking at a close-to $10K suite just to prove that what they did to you really didn't happen.
orangeninja
February 1, 2004, 09:08 AM
labgrade
O-K-A-Y.....:uhoh:
O-K-A-Y.....:uhoh:
Double Naught Spy
February 1, 2004, 09:35 AM
While I don't have labgrade's view on cops, I do know that it is very easy in a sensitive situation to get information wrong in some manner. So even if the shooter did explain the events to the cops, it is possible that they will not fully understand what was being said or add their own interpretations to the statements and body language of the shooter, even if they are not aware of doing so.
A LEO buddy of mine recounted a nice theory to me that he says occurs every day with arrents. It is based on the concept that if you give a person enough rope, that person will hang himself. During interviews by cops, stopped folks often manage to talk themselves into tickets and into going to jail.
Some folks suggest stating that you were in fear for your life. I doubt that alone is going to preclude you from getting arrested if there are no impartial witnesses to verify your story. The cops will want to know why you were in fear for your life, so as to just the shooting, but you won't talk and have asked for a lawyer. So now you have provided a teaser to the cops. What good is that? Let the lawyer speak for you.
A LEO buddy of mine recounted a nice theory to me that he says occurs every day with arrents. It is based on the concept that if you give a person enough rope, that person will hang himself. During interviews by cops, stopped folks often manage to talk themselves into tickets and into going to jail.
Some folks suggest stating that you were in fear for your life. I doubt that alone is going to preclude you from getting arrested if there are no impartial witnesses to verify your story. The cops will want to know why you were in fear for your life, so as to just the shooting, but you won't talk and have asked for a lawyer. So now you have provided a teaser to the cops. What good is that? Let the lawyer speak for you.
ojibweindian
February 1, 2004, 10:31 AM
My advice to myself is to shut up and lawyer up.
Why? Because our legal system is adversarial and, as a suspect in a shooting, your adversaries are the cops and the D.A. In reality, while a suspect, saying ANYTHING to them is giving aid to the enemy.
Why? Because our legal system is adversarial and, as a suspect in a shooting, your adversaries are the cops and the D.A. In reality, while a suspect, saying ANYTHING to them is giving aid to the enemy.
orangeninja
February 1, 2004, 12:24 PM
You should NOT talk about the shooting other than to say it was in self defense and then nothing more. They teach us that in Police training as well. I do not share the above stated "views" of Police. I work with several great guys and a few A-Holes like any other job. We were told this....
1. Shut up or change the subject if you must talk. Untampered physical evidence will usually speak for itself. You will be under a great deal of emotional and mental stress and you will NOT be able to clearly recall all that happend. Its called "mental shock". Not the time to be testifying....which is what you're doing if you're talking.
2. Upon Police arrival, comply with all orders they give you to "drop the weapon" etc. EVEN if YOU are a cop.
3. Say it was in self defense for 2 reasons.....First, now they know why you have a loaded weapon, second, they will cover the downed bad guy and anyone else involved so that you do not have to.
4. A lawyer will be able to speak with you in confidentiality and help you to recall things that you might not have noticed or been cognant of directly after the shooting, due to mental shock. Talking it through several times will really help clarify....and it will be OFF THE RECORD! Client/Lawyer confidentiality.
5. Even cops lawyer up after a shooting.....contrary to what was stated earlier....cops are not a "gang" and do not cover for one another on a regular basis. In fact, in larger departments....many cops have never even met one another. Or in my circumstance, there are so many small cities right next to one another that you will most likely be in some other Department's jurisdiction.
I voted: shut up and lawyer up. But for very different reasons. Its not that I don't trust the cops....its that I don't trust myself.
1. Shut up or change the subject if you must talk. Untampered physical evidence will usually speak for itself. You will be under a great deal of emotional and mental stress and you will NOT be able to clearly recall all that happend. Its called "mental shock". Not the time to be testifying....which is what you're doing if you're talking.
2. Upon Police arrival, comply with all orders they give you to "drop the weapon" etc. EVEN if YOU are a cop.
3. Say it was in self defense for 2 reasons.....First, now they know why you have a loaded weapon, second, they will cover the downed bad guy and anyone else involved so that you do not have to.
4. A lawyer will be able to speak with you in confidentiality and help you to recall things that you might not have noticed or been cognant of directly after the shooting, due to mental shock. Talking it through several times will really help clarify....and it will be OFF THE RECORD! Client/Lawyer confidentiality.
5. Even cops lawyer up after a shooting.....contrary to what was stated earlier....cops are not a "gang" and do not cover for one another on a regular basis. In fact, in larger departments....many cops have never even met one another. Or in my circumstance, there are so many small cities right next to one another that you will most likely be in some other Department's jurisdiction.
I voted: shut up and lawyer up. But for very different reasons. Its not that I don't trust the cops....its that I don't trust myself.
Publicola
February 1, 2004, 04:12 PM
silence is indeed golden.
explaining the circumstances to the police is a crap shoot. A cop might be cool, he might not. either way it's the DA that will press charges or not & he often doesn't care if the cops at the scene felt you're a good guy or not.
So dusting off the old 5th amendment & using it is the best course of action.
explaining the circumstances to the police is a crap shoot. A cop might be cool, he might not. either way it's the DA that will press charges or not & he often doesn't care if the cops at the scene felt you're a good guy or not.
So dusting off the old 5th amendment & using it is the best course of action.
HankB
February 1, 2004, 06:05 PM
I've read that if, instead of Mirandizing a suspect, the cops were required to slap a piece of duct tape over his mouth so he COULDN'T say anything, convictions would drop 50%.
"I was in fear for my life - I want an attorney" is ALL you should say. Some argument can be made that even that's too much - "I want an attorney" is it.
Remember, even if the responding officer really IS a good guy, maybe the local, politically-driven DA hates civilians with guns, and will decide to make an example of you. (Happened here in Austin, TX, not too long ago.) He will twist and warp everything you say.
Unless you don't say anything.
"I was in fear for my life - I want an attorney" is ALL you should say. Some argument can be made that even that's too much - "I want an attorney" is it.
Remember, even if the responding officer really IS a good guy, maybe the local, politically-driven DA hates civilians with guns, and will decide to make an example of you. (Happened here in Austin, TX, not too long ago.) He will twist and warp everything you say.
Unless you don't say anything.
Moparmike
February 1, 2004, 06:25 PM
Some people cant afford an attorney.
Those of you mocking labgrade: Read his story (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=58241&highlight=cops) before you mock his changed views of Peace Officers.
I voted for the 2nd option.
Those of you mocking labgrade: Read his story (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=58241&highlight=cops) before you mock his changed views of Peace Officers.
I voted for the 2nd option.
shooterIII
February 1, 2004, 09:27 PM
Mpayne is correct, this is what is taught in my ccw class.
Jeff Thomas
February 1, 2004, 10:57 PM
Best advice I received (from many instructors) was to say nothing more than "I was in fear for my life, and I need to speak with my attorney". No more.
Now, can I do that if, God forbid, I've ever in this situation? Sure hope so. Because attorney friends have given me too many examples of how wrong things can go if you start talking ... completely innocent people can wind up in very, very bad spots, simply be saying too much without counsel.
Regards from TX
Now, can I do that if, God forbid, I've ever in this situation? Sure hope so. Because attorney friends have given me too many examples of how wrong things can go if you start talking ... completely innocent people can wind up in very, very bad spots, simply be saying too much without counsel.
Regards from TX
Gary H
February 1, 2004, 11:06 PM
Should you open your mouth and utter a sentence without the words lawyer, or attorney, they can write anything on their little pad that they want. I'm not even suggesting any ill will here, but you need a lawyer, or you need to have your own tape recorder going and only give the basics.
fjolnirsson
February 1, 2004, 11:22 PM
Labgrade,
Howdy! Read your story. That sucks!
I can see your point a little more clearly now.
Speaking as someone trying to get into the LE field, I can tell you, I see these changes going on, and they scare me. So many of the "Good Guys" I know have been turned down (myself included), because we do not have the apropriate JBT mentality.
Myself, I was booted from the academy two weeks before graduation because I dared to question my instructors when I believed that what they were teaching violated civil rights.
However, my best friend is a recently hired LE, so they aren't all bad.
Maybe things aren't lost yet.
Howdy! Read your story. That sucks!
I can see your point a little more clearly now.
Speaking as someone trying to get into the LE field, I can tell you, I see these changes going on, and they scare me. So many of the "Good Guys" I know have been turned down (myself included), because we do not have the apropriate JBT mentality.
Myself, I was booted from the academy two weeks before graduation because I dared to question my instructors when I believed that what they were teaching violated civil rights.
However, my best friend is a recently hired LE, so they aren't all bad.
Maybe things aren't lost yet.
captlid
February 1, 2004, 11:50 PM
calling the ambulance first? That gives you sometime to calm down, (and call a lawyer if you are able to) and when paramedics arrive, they'll get BG and check you out for shock, stress. (in my hood ambulance service is faster than cops)
444
February 1, 2004, 11:55 PM
I have sat through a couple lectures on this subject. They all involved cops and private citizens. And they all said pretty much the same thing - which is somewhere between the two extremes given here.
First of course they said you need to call it in. You call and say you were attacked and defended yourself. You tell them you need an ambulance. And you tell them that if the other person survives, you want to press charges. Then you stay on the phone.
They advised that you should talk a little. You should of course say that you were threatened with lethal force and you defended your life. They advised not to say much, but try to at least appear to be cooperative. If anything gets specific or confrontational, instead of immediately saying you want a lawyer, you should just say that you are really upset and don't want to say anything right now.
They specifically advised against immediatly saying you want a lawyer. Their reasoning was that cops deal with criminals all day, every day. When a criminal is busted, the first thing he wants is a lawyer. You are an honest citizen who just legally defend yourself against deadly force, if you immediately dummy up and ask for a lawyer, you are acting like the criminals they deal with on a daily basis and will probably be treated as such. They also got into the crime scene investigation. They said that if you defend yourself, the evidence is right there for them to see. And in a rightous shooting, it will be fairly obvious that the other guy has a weapon etc. There may even be witnesses or video cameras present. They may look at the scene and say it is pretty much open and shut, do a cursory investigation and call it a day. But, the moment you start talking about lawyers, they are going to make sure that every i is dotted and every t is crossed. They will call in everyone to process the scene etc. because they know that everything they do is going to be closely examined in court.
At no time did they say you should spill your guts. They advised against it. They did say you should cooperate to some degree.
At no time did they say not to call a lawyer. They just didn't think it was a good idea to make a big issue of it right from the get go.
First of course they said you need to call it in. You call and say you were attacked and defended yourself. You tell them you need an ambulance. And you tell them that if the other person survives, you want to press charges. Then you stay on the phone.
They advised that you should talk a little. You should of course say that you were threatened with lethal force and you defended your life. They advised not to say much, but try to at least appear to be cooperative. If anything gets specific or confrontational, instead of immediately saying you want a lawyer, you should just say that you are really upset and don't want to say anything right now.
They specifically advised against immediatly saying you want a lawyer. Their reasoning was that cops deal with criminals all day, every day. When a criminal is busted, the first thing he wants is a lawyer. You are an honest citizen who just legally defend yourself against deadly force, if you immediately dummy up and ask for a lawyer, you are acting like the criminals they deal with on a daily basis and will probably be treated as such. They also got into the crime scene investigation. They said that if you defend yourself, the evidence is right there for them to see. And in a rightous shooting, it will be fairly obvious that the other guy has a weapon etc. There may even be witnesses or video cameras present. They may look at the scene and say it is pretty much open and shut, do a cursory investigation and call it a day. But, the moment you start talking about lawyers, they are going to make sure that every i is dotted and every t is crossed. They will call in everyone to process the scene etc. because they know that everything they do is going to be closely examined in court.
At no time did they say you should spill your guts. They advised against it. They did say you should cooperate to some degree.
At no time did they say not to call a lawyer. They just didn't think it was a good idea to make a big issue of it right from the get go.
labgrade
February 2, 2004, 12:19 AM
alduro,
Roll your eyes all you want. & yup, I'm still a bit pi$$ed off about this latest affair.
I was a cop - been there, done that, T-shirt & everything, & you know what? Over 1/2 of my felony busts were other cops - breaking/entering/possession of stolen firearms/drugs & sale of same, besides a couple other nifty things. Excessive use of force comes to mind more than once, not to mention just lying their a$$es off to make "good" a case that wasn't there to begin with.
I got into the cops from a purely humanitarian aspect = to be there when folks need you most/a "firefighter with a gun"-kinda thing, if you catch my drift & it was one of the most rewarding things I have ever done - the interaction with the people themselves, when they required things you could do for them - a very purile public service.
But, many of the cops themselves were either criminals, or just short of - biggest street gang in the world & they take their turf very seriously.
Anybody who has spent any time at all in this carreer field has seen it, or has been very lucky - & I commend you for your department.
Something about that just jades one, ya know? Ever watch sausage getting made? ;)
fjolnirsson,
Thanks.
This latest bit really only jaded me further.
Cutting my teeth, so to speak, in Miami, & parts south during the early 70s, I got to be pulled out of my car about every day. "Got any drugs!? Weapons!?" Car searched, me patted down, groped (by the more "friendly ones") for no reason other than having long hair. With a few, on first-name basis, we even "joked" while being violated ....
The Coacaine Cowboys were very much in evidence during those times, & although I never plied that trade, there were many of us that got to spread 'em as a result - just a "fun" off-shoot.
Living on a sailboat in the Keys also allows one to experience the JBT nature of those that can. You see, a house is a domicile, while a sailboat, at anchor, is fair game for Coast Guard, Customs, INS, DEA, you name it - plenty fun violations associated with that.
A woman very dear to my heart had her first "sexual experience" due to the "very persuassive nature" of a GA Deputy Sheriff - some call it rape.
Other than the above, I've had a generally decent enough experience with cops & hold them, as a profession, decent enough & even count a few as friends.
So sad though that the divide of "us versus them" has widened, & it hasn't been due to
Personally, in any "professional event," I wouldn't give a cop CPR - may be used against you in court.
& I'm for everything they're supposed to stand for.
Pretty sad, no?
Roll your eyes all you want. & yup, I'm still a bit pi$$ed off about this latest affair.
I was a cop - been there, done that, T-shirt & everything, & you know what? Over 1/2 of my felony busts were other cops - breaking/entering/possession of stolen firearms/drugs & sale of same, besides a couple other nifty things. Excessive use of force comes to mind more than once, not to mention just lying their a$$es off to make "good" a case that wasn't there to begin with.
I got into the cops from a purely humanitarian aspect = to be there when folks need you most/a "firefighter with a gun"-kinda thing, if you catch my drift & it was one of the most rewarding things I have ever done - the interaction with the people themselves, when they required things you could do for them - a very purile public service.
But, many of the cops themselves were either criminals, or just short of - biggest street gang in the world & they take their turf very seriously.
Anybody who has spent any time at all in this carreer field has seen it, or has been very lucky - & I commend you for your department.
Something about that just jades one, ya know? Ever watch sausage getting made? ;)
fjolnirsson,
Thanks.
This latest bit really only jaded me further.
Cutting my teeth, so to speak, in Miami, & parts south during the early 70s, I got to be pulled out of my car about every day. "Got any drugs!? Weapons!?" Car searched, me patted down, groped (by the more "friendly ones") for no reason other than having long hair. With a few, on first-name basis, we even "joked" while being violated ....
The Coacaine Cowboys were very much in evidence during those times, & although I never plied that trade, there were many of us that got to spread 'em as a result - just a "fun" off-shoot.
Living on a sailboat in the Keys also allows one to experience the JBT nature of those that can. You see, a house is a domicile, while a sailboat, at anchor, is fair game for Coast Guard, Customs, INS, DEA, you name it - plenty fun violations associated with that.
A woman very dear to my heart had her first "sexual experience" due to the "very persuassive nature" of a GA Deputy Sheriff - some call it rape.
Other than the above, I've had a generally decent enough experience with cops & hold them, as a profession, decent enough & even count a few as friends.
So sad though that the divide of "us versus them" has widened, & it hasn't been due to
Personally, in any "professional event," I wouldn't give a cop CPR - may be used against you in court.
& I'm for everything they're supposed to stand for.
Pretty sad, no?
F4GIB
February 2, 2004, 12:53 AM
In my decades as a lawyer the most constant fact has been that most people cannot STOP if they start talking to the "nice" officer. If you aren't CERTAIN you can stop (or, even worse, if you aren't CERTAIN you acted properly), do not start talking with the police.
In 99% of outside the home shootings and 80% of in your home shootings, you will be arrested based on the ambiguities of the physical evidence. Talking will not prevent this from occuring. Let me repeat that: Talking will not prevent this from occuring.
Request an opportunity to consult with a lawyer from everyone in blue that you come in contact with. "Lawyering up" after a shooting is just as important as having a gun in a gunfight. "I want a Lawyer," "lawyer," "lawyer," "lawyer." Make it your manta.
The investigation will take weeks. There will be plenty of time to give a well-advised statement later.
I have never had anyone go to prison because of something they did NOT say. Almost everyone in prison is there because of something they DID say. TAKE HEED.
You can survive a night in the PD lockup or the county jail. Nice, normal folks do not survive in state prison. If you go to prison, the odds are you'll commit suicide.
This is serious S**t. Don't think you can get through it without professional help. The $10,000 you pay your lawyer will be the best money you've ever spent. Do not try to save money "bargain hunting" for a cheap, inexperienced lawyer.
In 99% of outside the home shootings and 80% of in your home shootings, you will be arrested based on the ambiguities of the physical evidence. Talking will not prevent this from occuring. Let me repeat that: Talking will not prevent this from occuring.
Request an opportunity to consult with a lawyer from everyone in blue that you come in contact with. "Lawyering up" after a shooting is just as important as having a gun in a gunfight. "I want a Lawyer," "lawyer," "lawyer," "lawyer." Make it your manta.
The investigation will take weeks. There will be plenty of time to give a well-advised statement later.
I have never had anyone go to prison because of something they did NOT say. Almost everyone in prison is there because of something they DID say. TAKE HEED.
You can survive a night in the PD lockup or the county jail. Nice, normal folks do not survive in state prison. If you go to prison, the odds are you'll commit suicide.
This is serious S**t. Don't think you can get through it without professional help. The $10,000 you pay your lawyer will be the best money you've ever spent. Do not try to save money "bargain hunting" for a cheap, inexperienced lawyer.
444
February 2, 2004, 12:57 AM
F4GIB
I am one for trying to get as much factual information on this board as we can.
Could you possibly give us your advice on how to choose a good lawyer for a situation such as this. What should we look for in choosing an attorney if we have no previous experience and have no friends that are lawyers.
I am one for trying to get as much factual information on this board as we can.
Could you possibly give us your advice on how to choose a good lawyer for a situation such as this. What should we look for in choosing an attorney if we have no previous experience and have no friends that are lawyers.
F4GIB
February 2, 2004, 01:37 AM
This was posted earlier as coming from a police officer:
"Their reasoning was that cops deal with criminals all day, every day. When a criminal is busted, the first thing he wants is a lawyer. You are an honest citizen who just legally defend yourself against deadly force, if you immediately dummy up and ask for a lawyer, you are acting like the criminals they deal with on a daily basis and will probably be treated as such."
If this isn't a lie, it sure is a stretch of the truth. Most criminals hate lawyers. After all, their last lawyer didn't keep their guilty a** out of jail. Furthermore, most of them believe they can outsmart the law and fool the cops.
So what they do is start running a line of BS by the officer. They lie and lie until they are totally tied up in a demonstratably false tale. They are too cool, too slick, too "bad" to ask for a lawyer. Just watch them shineing on the lawman in any episode of cops.
Real crooks don't ask for lawyers. They immediately start burying the officer in a line of BS. It is the BS that activates the officer's suspecions.
In any event, having the officer "like" you won't keep you out of prison. Often, silence will.
"Their reasoning was that cops deal with criminals all day, every day. When a criminal is busted, the first thing he wants is a lawyer. You are an honest citizen who just legally defend yourself against deadly force, if you immediately dummy up and ask for a lawyer, you are acting like the criminals they deal with on a daily basis and will probably be treated as such."
If this isn't a lie, it sure is a stretch of the truth. Most criminals hate lawyers. After all, their last lawyer didn't keep their guilty a** out of jail. Furthermore, most of them believe they can outsmart the law and fool the cops.
So what they do is start running a line of BS by the officer. They lie and lie until they are totally tied up in a demonstratably false tale. They are too cool, too slick, too "bad" to ask for a lawyer. Just watch them shineing on the lawman in any episode of cops.
Real crooks don't ask for lawyers. They immediately start burying the officer in a line of BS. It is the BS that activates the officer's suspecions.
In any event, having the officer "like" you won't keep you out of prison. Often, silence will.
Feanaro
February 2, 2004, 01:58 AM
If you don't say it, they can't use it against you. I would say "It was in self-defense and I want my lawyer." and then clam up.
labgrade
February 2, 2004, 02:09 AM
Everything F4GIB said is spot on.
Make no statement whatsoever other than you want to make a phone call to your lawyer. First though, you want to be out of jail, & free enough to enable your own choices for your future. Incummudicado & you're screwed.
Far as obtaining a lawyer, 444. I'd suggest getting ahold of one previously - & I mean right now, for any initial consultations, etc. & to merely set the stage for anything that could likely come down the pike.
In my own latest experience, I was totally unprepared. I called a couple pro-gunny group to help in the lawyering up thing. Truly, their advice sucked. I interviewed at least 6 lawyers to ascertain who I thought would best represent me. One was the last CO Senate Demo President - Stan Matsunaka, as strange as that might seem - him being an anti .... 'another story to be posted sometime later. ;)
I would take a look at civil rights-type cases in my loca;l state & who has a decent enough record. Too, as much as I'm turned off by them, you may want to look at the ACLU, although they're not heavy in the 2nd department.
Local pro-gun groups, RMGO in Colorado, or NRA nationally might be a place to start.
But, you absolutely want a bull-dog on your side.
Although "adequate," I didn't & ending up doing a plead to 2nd misdomeanor for "obstruction."
Sorry, & rambling. & yup, the meds are kicking in ....
Make no statement whatsoever other than you want to make a phone call to your lawyer. First though, you want to be out of jail, & free enough to enable your own choices for your future. Incummudicado & you're screwed.
Far as obtaining a lawyer, 444. I'd suggest getting ahold of one previously - & I mean right now, for any initial consultations, etc. & to merely set the stage for anything that could likely come down the pike.
In my own latest experience, I was totally unprepared. I called a couple pro-gunny group to help in the lawyering up thing. Truly, their advice sucked. I interviewed at least 6 lawyers to ascertain who I thought would best represent me. One was the last CO Senate Demo President - Stan Matsunaka, as strange as that might seem - him being an anti .... 'another story to be posted sometime later. ;)
I would take a look at civil rights-type cases in my loca;l state & who has a decent enough record. Too, as much as I'm turned off by them, you may want to look at the ACLU, although they're not heavy in the 2nd department.
Local pro-gun groups, RMGO in Colorado, or NRA nationally might be a place to start.
But, you absolutely want a bull-dog on your side.
Although "adequate," I didn't & ending up doing a plead to 2nd misdomeanor for "obstruction."
Sorry, & rambling. & yup, the meds are kicking in ....
ksnecktieman
February 2, 2004, 03:09 AM
In my opinion, silence is golden, and even some of you guys that are going to ask for a lawyer have already said too much. When you dial 911, I think what you should tell dispatch is that someone has been shot, and you need an ambulance. Remove your pistol and holster. When the police ask you what happened tell them you have no statement to make. They may assume that you were in a drug deal and it went bad. They may decide they do not have a reason to arrest you. If you tell them you shot in self defense you WILL be arrested, and you may get to spend your savings proving it in court. Let them assume anything they wish. Just maybe you will get to spend the night in your own bed and get to call a lawyer the next morning.
ZekeLuvs1911
February 2, 2004, 04:22 AM
Since anything I say can and WILL BE USED AGAINST ME in a court of law, they will get nothing from me except my name. Then I will call a lawyer and wait until I get legal counsel before I speak to the authorities. Silence is indeed golden and since I did not flee the scene, guilt is not assumed.
Ky Larry
February 2, 2004, 09:28 AM
Your real problems will not be caused by the police but by the District Attorney who decides wheather or not to charge you with a crime. If he or she is an anti- with political ambitions, you will be glad you kept your mouth shut. IMHO,DA's are the main reason lawyers have a bad rep. A lot of them are in office to advance their own career, not to uphold justice.
Alan Fud
February 2, 2004, 09:55 AM
Posted by F4GIB:
... This is serious S**t. Don't think you can get through it without professional help. The $10,000 you pay your lawyer will be the best money you've ever spent. Do not try to save money "bargain hunting" for a cheap, inexperienced lawyer. ... It's the middle of the night on a week-end and you just shot someone kicking in your bedroom door. How are you going to find a qualified lawyer and get him to come out? Most people do not have criminal lawyers on retainers unless they are involved in some sort of criminal activity to begin with. What do you recommend? And do you recommend anyone in the Allentown, PA area?
... This is serious S**t. Don't think you can get through it without professional help. The $10,000 you pay your lawyer will be the best money you've ever spent. Do not try to save money "bargain hunting" for a cheap, inexperienced lawyer. ... It's the middle of the night on a week-end and you just shot someone kicking in your bedroom door. How are you going to find a qualified lawyer and get him to come out? Most people do not have criminal lawyers on retainers unless they are involved in some sort of criminal activity to begin with. What do you recommend? And do you recommend anyone in the Allentown, PA area?
labgrade
February 2, 2004, 11:49 AM
Ky Larry,
Truer words never spoken.
& this not a rant, just an observation & enlightening for those that haven't been there.
I sat in front of an ??? DA-chick when attempting the plea-deal for my arrest.
I was offered a defered sentence for the firearm charge/48 hours community service - it'd all go away if I kept my nose clean. (shouldn't be no big deal since at 51, I've never seen the inside of a cop-shop when I didn't have the keys.)
No thanks, I'll pass. I don't want even one thing related to a "weapons charge" anywhere near me.
Second option was to plead to "obstruction." I asked the "nice lady" what was the "obstruction? where did it occur, yada.
Blank stare.
They had to have something - anything, or they'd look like fools from the start. Kind of a No-Limit Texas Hold-'Em card game. I decided not to raise.
Alan,
Your biggest worry is to not say anything to further incriminate you AND, biggest & best, is to not be in custody any longer & anyone really can get you out of jail.
Worry about the specifics/details after you're home & free again.
Truer words never spoken.
& this not a rant, just an observation & enlightening for those that haven't been there.
I sat in front of an ??? DA-chick when attempting the plea-deal for my arrest.
I was offered a defered sentence for the firearm charge/48 hours community service - it'd all go away if I kept my nose clean. (shouldn't be no big deal since at 51, I've never seen the inside of a cop-shop when I didn't have the keys.)
No thanks, I'll pass. I don't want even one thing related to a "weapons charge" anywhere near me.
Second option was to plead to "obstruction." I asked the "nice lady" what was the "obstruction? where did it occur, yada.
Blank stare.
They had to have something - anything, or they'd look like fools from the start. Kind of a No-Limit Texas Hold-'Em card game. I decided not to raise.
Alan,
Your biggest worry is to not say anything to further incriminate you AND, biggest & best, is to not be in custody any longer & anyone really can get you out of jail.
Worry about the specifics/details after you're home & free again.
orangeninja
February 2, 2004, 06:23 PM
my appologies....I have a less tragic but equally bad story.
I was 16...I was standing next to a strip mall wall waiting on my girlfriend. It was about 2AM. A cop rolls by real slow....then leaves. A few seconds later two cop cars come up screeching to a halt. Spot lights hit me and I am told to lay spread eagle on the ground.
A cop comes up to me, gun drawn and tells me to face away from him. He presses the gun to my head, while I stare at his boot. He frisked me for weapons, dug in all of my pockets and then cuffed me and stuffed me into the back of his car. I was 16 so I was crying my little teenage head off. This asian female cop keeps asking me questions like "are you in a gang" "do you have tatoos, etc." while her partner searches the strip mall parking lot for anything I might have "done." See, at this point there is no probable cause and the search was completely illegal. In fact, the police officer commited the offense of assault by pressing a gun into my head as I lay down spread eagle. But I'm a kid, what do I know....
to end short....I was taken home and my mother was awakened. The cop told my mom he "caught" me breaking in to a pawn shop and showed her some keys, that he also showed me, saying I was using those to try the lock through the back door. He said he was going to think about pressing charges.
My mom freaks...my life is over at this point. The next couple of weeks at school I see a guy in my platoon...(I was in JROTC) with those exact keys. I ask him where he got them....he said they were his dads, who happens to be that cop come to find out. Also this cop beat his kid, my friend and his partners would cover his tracks.
MORAL TO THE STORY: there are real bastard departments out there and real bastard cops. I am a Sergeant and I have bastards working for me....I know who they are and act accordingly since 9 out of 10 times a supervisor gets involved.
There are also great cops, who do the job because they want to make a difference or because its a family honor thing, like their dad was a cop so they are a cop so their kids are a cop. A lot of that goes on. Those guys tend to be the best cops....so I feel you labgrade...I do. But your judgement is wrong. You've got to get past it. I did, it took 7 years but I did it.
I was 16...I was standing next to a strip mall wall waiting on my girlfriend. It was about 2AM. A cop rolls by real slow....then leaves. A few seconds later two cop cars come up screeching to a halt. Spot lights hit me and I am told to lay spread eagle on the ground.
A cop comes up to me, gun drawn and tells me to face away from him. He presses the gun to my head, while I stare at his boot. He frisked me for weapons, dug in all of my pockets and then cuffed me and stuffed me into the back of his car. I was 16 so I was crying my little teenage head off. This asian female cop keeps asking me questions like "are you in a gang" "do you have tatoos, etc." while her partner searches the strip mall parking lot for anything I might have "done." See, at this point there is no probable cause and the search was completely illegal. In fact, the police officer commited the offense of assault by pressing a gun into my head as I lay down spread eagle. But I'm a kid, what do I know....
to end short....I was taken home and my mother was awakened. The cop told my mom he "caught" me breaking in to a pawn shop and showed her some keys, that he also showed me, saying I was using those to try the lock through the back door. He said he was going to think about pressing charges.
My mom freaks...my life is over at this point. The next couple of weeks at school I see a guy in my platoon...(I was in JROTC) with those exact keys. I ask him where he got them....he said they were his dads, who happens to be that cop come to find out. Also this cop beat his kid, my friend and his partners would cover his tracks.
MORAL TO THE STORY: there are real bastard departments out there and real bastard cops. I am a Sergeant and I have bastards working for me....I know who they are and act accordingly since 9 out of 10 times a supervisor gets involved.
There are also great cops, who do the job because they want to make a difference or because its a family honor thing, like their dad was a cop so they are a cop so their kids are a cop. A lot of that goes on. Those guys tend to be the best cops....so I feel you labgrade...I do. But your judgement is wrong. You've got to get past it. I did, it took 7 years but I did it.
Chuck Jennings
February 2, 2004, 07:16 PM
Just because criminals regularly know to lawyer up right away is no reason for you to forgo that right. If a LE officer tries getting specific or confrontational, "lawyering up” is your right. You shouldn't give a damn if saying nothing leaves a LE officer unhappy. Anything you say gets in the police report, and that police report can be used against you criminally and civilly. You definitely don’t want anything on paper that could further a civil claim against you. This can happen regardless of the outcome of your case on the criminal side. Anything you say can cost you your freedom, and/or your $$$$$.
444
February 2, 2004, 07:56 PM
clbj
Please note in my post that I mentioned twice that they NEVER said not to call your attorney. The thing they were advising against was immediately flaunting that and adopting a confrontational attitude with the police. Instead they advised just telling them that you just involved in a traumatic experience and don't feel like talking. You certainly do call your attorney, you just don't make a big huge issue out of it with the police. It is just as easy to be non-confrontational and still not say anything to incriminate yourself or make yourself appear in a bad light as it is to do the opposite. One might work in your favor, and it is highly unlikely that coping an attitude is going to win any points in your favor. Of course this holds true with any aspect of your life. Being a jerk seldom gets you very far.
For that matter, while you are standing there waiting for the police to arrive, call your attorney if it is that critical. You don't need to wait so you can tell the police you are doing it.
"You shouldn't give a damn if saying nothing leaves a LE officer unhappy. "
I do give a damn about making anyone in the process unhappy other than the guy that was trying to kill me. As I said above, there is no reason to do so. For all you know, the police officers that responed on the call are totally on your side, why antagonize them if there is no reason to do so ? What is to be gained by making them miserable ? On the other hand, you never know what the benefits of being nice might be. Again, this doesn't mean you have to tell them every detail of your life. You can still decline to give them any information. You can still tell them that you are too upset to talk about it right now, but you don' t have to be a dick in doing so.
Please note in my post that I mentioned twice that they NEVER said not to call your attorney. The thing they were advising against was immediately flaunting that and adopting a confrontational attitude with the police. Instead they advised just telling them that you just involved in a traumatic experience and don't feel like talking. You certainly do call your attorney, you just don't make a big huge issue out of it with the police. It is just as easy to be non-confrontational and still not say anything to incriminate yourself or make yourself appear in a bad light as it is to do the opposite. One might work in your favor, and it is highly unlikely that coping an attitude is going to win any points in your favor. Of course this holds true with any aspect of your life. Being a jerk seldom gets you very far.
For that matter, while you are standing there waiting for the police to arrive, call your attorney if it is that critical. You don't need to wait so you can tell the police you are doing it.
"You shouldn't give a damn if saying nothing leaves a LE officer unhappy. "
I do give a damn about making anyone in the process unhappy other than the guy that was trying to kill me. As I said above, there is no reason to do so. For all you know, the police officers that responed on the call are totally on your side, why antagonize them if there is no reason to do so ? What is to be gained by making them miserable ? On the other hand, you never know what the benefits of being nice might be. Again, this doesn't mean you have to tell them every detail of your life. You can still decline to give them any information. You can still tell them that you are too upset to talk about it right now, but you don' t have to be a dick in doing so.
brookstexas
February 2, 2004, 08:39 PM
1- You never know if it's adecent cop you are talking to and worse yet are there ANY decent District Attorneys?
2-You have everything to lose and nothing to gain by talking
3- Ask any lawyer
BT
2-You have everything to lose and nothing to gain by talking
3- Ask any lawyer
BT
Zach S
February 2, 2004, 08:49 PM
calling the ambulance first? That gives you sometime to calm down, (and call a lawyer if you are able to) and when paramedics arrive, they'll get BG and check you out for shock, stress. (in my hood ambulance service is faster than cops) What about after a shooting? Will the medic respond before the police secure the area, or be on standby waiting?
ksnecktieman
February 2, 2004, 08:55 PM
I hold a different opinion than you do 444. The police are there to investigate a crime, and make an arrest. It is not their job to determine guilt, or self defense conditions, or anything else. It is their JOB to make an arrest. A prosecutor is going to decide to prosecute or dismiss it, that is his job. In this case THE POLICE OFFICER IS NOT YOUR FRIEND, he is on the team of your "adversary" in our adversarial system of law.
ANY word you utter can be quoted, edited, misunderstood, used out of context, or deleted as the officials on scene consider pertinent.
Do not tell the officers you shot in self defense. Tell them there is a body, bring an ambulance, I am in shock, I will come to the station later and make a statement. (Later meaning tomorrow, after you talk to an attorney, but no need to explain that much.)
They may decide this was a gang, or drug related drive by shooting and save you paying ten thousand dollars to a lawyer. If they do, are you going to straighten them out?
ANY word you utter can be quoted, edited, misunderstood, used out of context, or deleted as the officials on scene consider pertinent.
Do not tell the officers you shot in self defense. Tell them there is a body, bring an ambulance, I am in shock, I will come to the station later and make a statement. (Later meaning tomorrow, after you talk to an attorney, but no need to explain that much.)
They may decide this was a gang, or drug related drive by shooting and save you paying ten thousand dollars to a lawyer. If they do, are you going to straighten them out?
Chuck Jennings
February 2, 2004, 09:01 PM
444,
It sounds like we are pretty much in agreement on the issue of politeness.
I never advocated being a jerk. I simply advocated being quiet and insisting on an attorney's counsel before making a statement. Trying to be helpful right off the bat can hang you later if you misspeak. In a stressful situation that will most certainly leave you in a state of shock, you may misspeak or say something that could be construed as incriminating. These words would then become a matter of public record. This could have horrible unintended consequences.
I did not advocate being dick. I have nothing but respect for LEOs (I come from 3 generations of LEOs and there are 6 family members I can think of that are currently in law enforcement at the local, state and federal levels.) One can politely refuse to give information without being antagonistic. However, you must be clear and unambiguous about your desire for counsel to any LEO you speak with. If after you refuse to say anything else, a LEO continues to question you, (even in a friendly manner) you can be polite, but firm. If they take offense, there is nothing you can do about it.
Like it or not, by shooting someone, you have entered the adversarial world of criminal law. You never know who is really on your side, and when my freedom is on the line, I will trust the person who I will be paying to keep my keester on the outside of the jail!
Regards,
Chuck
:)
It sounds like we are pretty much in agreement on the issue of politeness.
I never advocated being a jerk. I simply advocated being quiet and insisting on an attorney's counsel before making a statement. Trying to be helpful right off the bat can hang you later if you misspeak. In a stressful situation that will most certainly leave you in a state of shock, you may misspeak or say something that could be construed as incriminating. These words would then become a matter of public record. This could have horrible unintended consequences.
I did not advocate being dick. I have nothing but respect for LEOs (I come from 3 generations of LEOs and there are 6 family members I can think of that are currently in law enforcement at the local, state and federal levels.) One can politely refuse to give information without being antagonistic. However, you must be clear and unambiguous about your desire for counsel to any LEO you speak with. If after you refuse to say anything else, a LEO continues to question you, (even in a friendly manner) you can be polite, but firm. If they take offense, there is nothing you can do about it.
Like it or not, by shooting someone, you have entered the adversarial world of criminal law. You never know who is really on your side, and when my freedom is on the line, I will trust the person who I will be paying to keep my keester on the outside of the jail!
Regards,
Chuck
:)
444
February 2, 2004, 09:18 PM
"I never advocated being a jerk."
Right, all I am saying is that if they walk up to you and you say, I want my lawyer, right away you are starting off on the wrong foot. To me, you can accomplish the same thing by saying something like, I am really traumatized and dont' feel like talking right now. Both accomplish the same thing, but one does it much more less bad feeling.
"The police are there to investigate a crime, and make an arrest."
"ANY word you utter can be quoted, edited, misunderstood, used out of context, or deleted as the officials on scene consider pertinent."
"Tell them there is a body, bring an ambulance, I am in shock, I will come to the station later and make a statement. "
This all doesn't go together. If they are there to make an arrest, what makes you think you are going to tell them you will drop by the station later to make a statement ?
If ANY word you say might bring trouble, why tell them there is a body, bring an ambulance etc. ?
I am basing the following on what I would think if I was a cop. Keep in mind that my thinking on self defense, gun ownership etc. is probably very close to yours. If I got out of the car and the person who did the shooting wouldn't say a word, or if that person wouldn't answer any question other than to tell me he wanted a lawyer, I would immediately be suspicious of the whole circumstance. Personally I would immediately think he was up to something. Especially if someone told me that there was a body there and nothing else and I find that he has a recently fired gun on him. On the other hand, if the guy told me this guy tried to kill him or this guy was trying to rob him at gunpoint or whatever and he was too shaken up to talk, I would look at the thing through different eyes. Again, to my way of thinking you need all the friends you can get at this point, not more enemies.
This may be all wrong and I hope I never find out either way.
Right, all I am saying is that if they walk up to you and you say, I want my lawyer, right away you are starting off on the wrong foot. To me, you can accomplish the same thing by saying something like, I am really traumatized and dont' feel like talking right now. Both accomplish the same thing, but one does it much more less bad feeling.
"The police are there to investigate a crime, and make an arrest."
"ANY word you utter can be quoted, edited, misunderstood, used out of context, or deleted as the officials on scene consider pertinent."
"Tell them there is a body, bring an ambulance, I am in shock, I will come to the station later and make a statement. "
This all doesn't go together. If they are there to make an arrest, what makes you think you are going to tell them you will drop by the station later to make a statement ?
If ANY word you say might bring trouble, why tell them there is a body, bring an ambulance etc. ?
I am basing the following on what I would think if I was a cop. Keep in mind that my thinking on self defense, gun ownership etc. is probably very close to yours. If I got out of the car and the person who did the shooting wouldn't say a word, or if that person wouldn't answer any question other than to tell me he wanted a lawyer, I would immediately be suspicious of the whole circumstance. Personally I would immediately think he was up to something. Especially if someone told me that there was a body there and nothing else and I find that he has a recently fired gun on him. On the other hand, if the guy told me this guy tried to kill him or this guy was trying to rob him at gunpoint or whatever and he was too shaken up to talk, I would look at the thing through different eyes. Again, to my way of thinking you need all the friends you can get at this point, not more enemies.
This may be all wrong and I hope I never find out either way.
P95Carry
February 2, 2004, 09:39 PM
I hope I never find out either way 444 ...... I will second that dude .. 110%!:)
ksnecktieman
February 2, 2004, 11:19 PM
I hope I never find out either.
I was not clear with my last post. After the shooting a call to 911 is needed. To them the only thing to say is that there is a body, please send an ambulance. Inform them he has been shot. They will pump you for more information. Tell them where he is hit, and how severe you judge it to be. At no time do I think you should tell them that you are the shooter. Get an ambulance, and police on the scene. The only thing you should tell the cops is "I have never seen a dead body, or a gunshot victim before, and I can not think." Yes, I can come to the station later, and make a statement. (note, that I did not say to hand them your weapon when they arrived on scene). I think my weapon would be on my desk, or laying in the back seat of my car, not hidden, but not advertised, either. If they assume anything, it is an assumption, go to jail, do not pass go, do not provide evidence for them by opening your mouth.
A policeman's job is to arrest someone. Do not volunteer yourself. The prosecutor and the judge, and the jury are the ones that decide guilt. If the policeman does not arrest you, or the prosecutor does not see "reasonable cause" for a warrant you will not have to concern yourself with them.
I can picture a cop in the briefing room about to go off duty telling his buddies "I arrested a crazy man with a gun tonight, he shot Johnny Jones and claimed self defense, Johnny was using the same toy gun he has used in the last three incidents, the one with the orange plug still in the barrel."
I repeat,,, the police are NOT your friends in this situation.
I was not clear with my last post. After the shooting a call to 911 is needed. To them the only thing to say is that there is a body, please send an ambulance. Inform them he has been shot. They will pump you for more information. Tell them where he is hit, and how severe you judge it to be. At no time do I think you should tell them that you are the shooter. Get an ambulance, and police on the scene. The only thing you should tell the cops is "I have never seen a dead body, or a gunshot victim before, and I can not think." Yes, I can come to the station later, and make a statement. (note, that I did not say to hand them your weapon when they arrived on scene). I think my weapon would be on my desk, or laying in the back seat of my car, not hidden, but not advertised, either. If they assume anything, it is an assumption, go to jail, do not pass go, do not provide evidence for them by opening your mouth.
A policeman's job is to arrest someone. Do not volunteer yourself. The prosecutor and the judge, and the jury are the ones that decide guilt. If the policeman does not arrest you, or the prosecutor does not see "reasonable cause" for a warrant you will not have to concern yourself with them.
I can picture a cop in the briefing room about to go off duty telling his buddies "I arrested a crazy man with a gun tonight, he shot Johnny Jones and claimed self defense, Johnny was using the same toy gun he has used in the last three incidents, the one with the orange plug still in the barrel."
I repeat,,, the police are NOT your friends in this situation.
444
February 2, 2004, 11:32 PM
It is all a matter of perspective.
I can see the cop getting off duty telling his buddies"
Hey you know that ??????? Johnny Jones ?
You mean that junkie we go on every other shift ?
Yeah, earlier today he made the mistake of bringing a toy gun to a real gunfight.
No ???? what happened ?
He tried to rob some guy at an ATM machine with a toy gun, some dude drew his own gun and put two rounds COM. The paramedics didn't even work him.
Right on someone should have done that a long time ago. That ought to cut down on the paperwork around here for awhile. Let's go get a cold one.
I can see the cop getting off duty telling his buddies"
Hey you know that ??????? Johnny Jones ?
You mean that junkie we go on every other shift ?
Yeah, earlier today he made the mistake of bringing a toy gun to a real gunfight.
No ???? what happened ?
He tried to rob some guy at an ATM machine with a toy gun, some dude drew his own gun and put two rounds COM. The paramedics didn't even work him.
Right on someone should have done that a long time ago. That ought to cut down on the paperwork around here for awhile. Let's go get a cold one.
Balog
February 3, 2004, 01:11 AM
444: you seem to be missing a pretty basic fact. The cop's job is to gather evidence. Anything you say can be used as evidence. The cop can normally do NOTHING to help you out. Trying to make nice and be his friend cannot in any possible way help you, and yammering on trying to get on his good side most definitely can.
I know, I know you only advocate a minimum of helpfulness. But I'm reminded of a Vietnam vet's comments about firing the M14 on full-auto in combat. He basically said that it wasn't too bad in a real short burst, but that in a firefight the bursts had a marked tendency to get longer and longer until you were just wasting 18 of the 20 rounds. After being in what is almost certainly the single most traumatic experience of your life (unless you are a combat vet), the idea that you can start talking, say only a few well chosen words that cannot in any way be twisted against you, and then politely stop is rather unrealistic.
The cop isn't your friend. He may be a good cop who loves shooting: he may be a bad cop who wishes only LEO's and the military had guns. Unless you know the officer it's a crap shoot as to which type you get. Why risk it? As has been said before, you really have nothing to gain. If the cop believes it was a clean shoot, so what? What can he do? Is he gonna gather the evidence in a more friendly way?
I know, I know you only advocate a minimum of helpfulness. But I'm reminded of a Vietnam vet's comments about firing the M14 on full-auto in combat. He basically said that it wasn't too bad in a real short burst, but that in a firefight the bursts had a marked tendency to get longer and longer until you were just wasting 18 of the 20 rounds. After being in what is almost certainly the single most traumatic experience of your life (unless you are a combat vet), the idea that you can start talking, say only a few well chosen words that cannot in any way be twisted against you, and then politely stop is rather unrealistic.
The cop isn't your friend. He may be a good cop who loves shooting: he may be a bad cop who wishes only LEO's and the military had guns. Unless you know the officer it's a crap shoot as to which type you get. Why risk it? As has been said before, you really have nothing to gain. If the cop believes it was a clean shoot, so what? What can he do? Is he gonna gather the evidence in a more friendly way?
444
February 3, 2004, 01:22 AM
"What can he do? Is he gonna gather the evidence in a more friendly way?"
Yeah, I believe if you think about it, there are investigations, and then there are investigations.
Put another way, if you go out looking for trouble, you probably will find it.
Another way of looking at it might be the words, preconceived notions.
Yeah, I believe if you think about it, there are investigations, and then there are investigations.
Put another way, if you go out looking for trouble, you probably will find it.
Another way of looking at it might be the words, preconceived notions.
Valkman
February 3, 2004, 02:40 AM
I too believe that the impression you give the cops can help you or hurt you - it's hard to believe that the cops on the scene are going to treat you exactly the same whether they think you're a good guy who had to shoot, or a smartmouth they'd like to see locked up. I think 444 is also right in that who you shot has lots to do with what happens. If it's the crack dealer with 42 arrests, I don't think anyone around here in Vegas will prosecute, but if it's 15 year-old Johnny who came in your window and has no record, now you're in a fight for your life. You'll find yourself defending the charge that he simply climbed in the wrong window but you (being the bloodthirsty killer you are) just killed him for no reason.
And what will start the ball rolling (or not) will probably be what you say or don't say. I plan on saying as little as possibe and getting a lawyer.
And what will start the ball rolling (or not) will probably be what you say or don't say. I plan on saying as little as possibe and getting a lawyer.
Balog
February 3, 2004, 01:27 PM
Exactly, what starts the ball rolling is what YOU say. If it was a clean shoot, and you say nothing the attitude of the cop shouldn't matter. The evidence is the evidence. Are you saying that you think the cops won't investigate the scene as thoroughly if you're polite? I'd think the PD would be almost criminally negligent if they were lax in their investigation because the suspect was nice to them. Be polite, but don't refuse to exercise your rights because you're afraid the cops won't like it.
ctdonath
February 3, 2004, 02:19 PM
Point out the basic facts - especially ones that are transient. "He attacked, I defended myself, he's there, a couple rounds went into that car which is about to drive away, that lady walking off is a witness, I will fully cooperate, I want my lawyer." Then shut up.
orangeninja
February 3, 2004, 06:31 PM
Okay a few remarks from me now....(not that I'm the authority or anything)...but it seems to make sense and this is usually how I have seen it done.
1. The 911 tape is used as evidence. However, do not tell the operator that there is a "body" on the scene and not mention you are the shooter. Why? Because this is called evasion, and even if there isn't a darn thing the cops can do...a "impartial" jury of your peers will see this as a sign of guilt and you will be legally torn to shreds. Its been done. Lots.
2. Tell the 911 operator you are the shooter, describe what you are wearing and what the cops can expect to see when they arrive. This is whether or not the guy is dead yet. Remember, gunshots don't normally instantly kill. A guy I work with had a shooting that took the guy 5 days to die from. He just lay on the ground moaning until the EMTs got there. The reason you tell the cops what to expect is that they won't shoot you. And cops don't always "announce" their arrival to a shooting. So if you have your weapon on a down man....a cop sneaks up behind you with news of a shooting and no description of you as the caller...guess what? Your suspect number 1. The cop may yell "DONT MOVE, POLICE" and you in your heightend state of stress spin to see the source of the voice...BANG! you're dead. Or it may just save you the hassle of being drawn on, slammed to the ground getting all dirty, bruised and cut up, while having some cops knee in your ear while they sterilize the area.
3. It is no crime to defend yourself legally in Texas. Saying, I shot in defense is not an admission of guilt....besides, how long do you think it would take...oh...say....someone like me to figure out what happend? And guess what, if I think you're lying I will "assume" that a crime has occured. Lying is an indicator of wrong doing...and can establish mens rea'.....(did I spell that right?) Its been a long time since school....mens rea is intent to commit or knowingly to commit a crime. Deciet establishes this nicely.
4. So much physical evidence is up to interpritation its rediculous. If the cops have an attitude....shut up. In fact shut up anyway....but pissing off the guy who "reads" the evidence is not a smart move. The jury will see a version of the crime scene....not the scene itself....and even if they did see the scene...you have to know how to read one to know what you are looking at. Once you calm down and talk to your lawyer....help the cops understand what "REALLY" happend....don't take the mindset of advisary...I garauntee you will be prosicuted if you do. The cop will read the evidence and submit a report to the DA as to the "Probable Cause" that led to your warrantless arrest due to his experience combined with training that led him to believe that a crime has been committed judging from the circumstances and evidence surrounding the shooting.
Guess who determines 50% of the "circumstances".....you do. Your body language...evasiveness etc. Cops understand you wanting a lawyer...but if you make them the enemy....they will be.
1. The 911 tape is used as evidence. However, do not tell the operator that there is a "body" on the scene and not mention you are the shooter. Why? Because this is called evasion, and even if there isn't a darn thing the cops can do...a "impartial" jury of your peers will see this as a sign of guilt and you will be legally torn to shreds. Its been done. Lots.
2. Tell the 911 operator you are the shooter, describe what you are wearing and what the cops can expect to see when they arrive. This is whether or not the guy is dead yet. Remember, gunshots don't normally instantly kill. A guy I work with had a shooting that took the guy 5 days to die from. He just lay on the ground moaning until the EMTs got there. The reason you tell the cops what to expect is that they won't shoot you. And cops don't always "announce" their arrival to a shooting. So if you have your weapon on a down man....a cop sneaks up behind you with news of a shooting and no description of you as the caller...guess what? Your suspect number 1. The cop may yell "DONT MOVE, POLICE" and you in your heightend state of stress spin to see the source of the voice...BANG! you're dead. Or it may just save you the hassle of being drawn on, slammed to the ground getting all dirty, bruised and cut up, while having some cops knee in your ear while they sterilize the area.
3. It is no crime to defend yourself legally in Texas. Saying, I shot in defense is not an admission of guilt....besides, how long do you think it would take...oh...say....someone like me to figure out what happend? And guess what, if I think you're lying I will "assume" that a crime has occured. Lying is an indicator of wrong doing...and can establish mens rea'.....(did I spell that right?) Its been a long time since school....mens rea is intent to commit or knowingly to commit a crime. Deciet establishes this nicely.
4. So much physical evidence is up to interpritation its rediculous. If the cops have an attitude....shut up. In fact shut up anyway....but pissing off the guy who "reads" the evidence is not a smart move. The jury will see a version of the crime scene....not the scene itself....and even if they did see the scene...you have to know how to read one to know what you are looking at. Once you calm down and talk to your lawyer....help the cops understand what "REALLY" happend....don't take the mindset of advisary...I garauntee you will be prosicuted if you do. The cop will read the evidence and submit a report to the DA as to the "Probable Cause" that led to your warrantless arrest due to his experience combined with training that led him to believe that a crime has been committed judging from the circumstances and evidence surrounding the shooting.
Guess who determines 50% of the "circumstances".....you do. Your body language...evasiveness etc. Cops understand you wanting a lawyer...but if you make them the enemy....they will be.
clubsoda22
February 3, 2004, 07:13 PM
"He attacked me. I feared for my life and was forced to defend myself. I don't want to answer any more questions without a lawyer."
P95Carry
February 3, 2004, 09:15 PM
alduro .... 1. The 911 tape is used as evidence. However, do not tell the operator that there is a "body" on the scene and not mention you are the shooter. Why? Because this is called evasion, Not seeing the ''evasion'' aspect here.2. Tell the 911 operator you are the shooter There seems a contradiction here ....... ''not mention you are the shooter'' .... and ''Tell the 911 operator you are the shooter'' ......:confused:
One other aspect comes to mind ... however much we (inwardly) may be quite content that BG is dead ... or dying ... what about the ambulance aspect ... if we don't mention there is a body/injured person? Plus .. what does a court think about ''humanitarian'' aspects? If you show concern for the BG .... is that good or bad? I could read that either way from the comfort of my keyboard!
Just a tad more expansion on this could be useful.
One other aspect comes to mind ... however much we (inwardly) may be quite content that BG is dead ... or dying ... what about the ambulance aspect ... if we don't mention there is a body/injured person? Plus .. what does a court think about ''humanitarian'' aspects? If you show concern for the BG .... is that good or bad? I could read that either way from the comfort of my keyboard!
Just a tad more expansion on this could be useful.
orangeninja
February 3, 2004, 10:07 PM
"The 911 tape is used as evidence. However, do not tell the operator that there is a "body" on the scene and not mention you are the shooter."
What I mean here is do not imply to the operator that you "found" a body. In other words, do not neglect to tell 911 that YOU are the shooter. You need to make clear to 911 who dispatches the police that YOU are the shooter, tell them what you look like, ask for an ambulance to be summoned and the police. If you are still covering a downed bad guy....tell them...so the police know what to expect. Surprises can be deadly. Secondly, if the bad guy is down....and you know first aid...and they are no longer a threat...by all means help the stupid dude. Showing concern is human....but professional or detached...not remorseful. Rendering aid does not show remorse...it demonstrates a respect for life. Hell....I want the guy to stand trial, not die.
What may seem evasive is if you were to be unclear to dispatch as to what happened, what you need and what the police should expect. I don't mean to give a full statement....the following would be perfect.
"911 Operator state your emergency"
"Hello, I have been attacked and have been involved in a shooting at 1010 Main St. a suspect is down and I need an ambulance and police assistance right away. I am wearing a dark blue Yankees baseball cap, a black leather jacket and blue jeans. I am a white male approximatly 6ft. 200 pounds. Please advise the police that I am armed and covering the suspect."
at this point most 911 operators will give you instructions and ask questions regarding the extent of the injuries of the bad guy....will ask if anyone else has been hurt, was involved or armed....Any questions like this are fine to answer. DONT GET INTO HOW THE SHOOTING HAPPENED OTHER THAN TO SAY YOU WERE ATTACKED. LEAVE IT AT THAT....NEVER GET SPECIFIC.....the operator will want you to stay on the line....don't. Hang up to render aid or focus on the bad guy. If you stay on the line you will hang yourself.
1. State situation: "I have been attacked and was involved in a shooting" is perfect. Not too much. Not too little and does not give any clues as to how or why yet explains the need for police and ambulance and alerts the police as to who the perp is likely to be. However just so you know....upon their arrival you have not yet been identified as a "good guy", just the caller or complaintant. Which is better than nothing.
2. State location within the first 2 sentences to get services rolling.
3. Summon ambulance and police....in that order, priority goes to life saving.
4. Describe what you are wearing and your physical description. You WANT them to recognize you. Be specific.
5. Tell dispatch what the police can expect to see upon arrival...i.e.
"I will be administering first aid to the suspect. In this case it may be helpful to keep them on the phone...they can help you. Only answer medical questions though. OR " I will be covering the suspect " however the most strongly advised is to HOLSTER YOUR WEAPON and try to "determine" the condition of the bad guy. You don't have to be a doctor...just see if he is concious....bleeding, how much and where. If he can respond. If he is breathing...etc. You don't have to even patch the holes to be of assistance.
If they ask...tell them you ARE armed...your name...whether or not you are a Security Guard on or off duty...Cop off duty....CHL holder, whatever. Don't Talk about how or what happend. That is off limits. Only questions about identity....the enviroment and medical stuff is permisable. But you don't even have to go there. Just location, what happend in 5 words or less, what you need and who you are/what you look like.
What I mean here is do not imply to the operator that you "found" a body. In other words, do not neglect to tell 911 that YOU are the shooter. You need to make clear to 911 who dispatches the police that YOU are the shooter, tell them what you look like, ask for an ambulance to be summoned and the police. If you are still covering a downed bad guy....tell them...so the police know what to expect. Surprises can be deadly. Secondly, if the bad guy is down....and you know first aid...and they are no longer a threat...by all means help the stupid dude. Showing concern is human....but professional or detached...not remorseful. Rendering aid does not show remorse...it demonstrates a respect for life. Hell....I want the guy to stand trial, not die.
What may seem evasive is if you were to be unclear to dispatch as to what happened, what you need and what the police should expect. I don't mean to give a full statement....the following would be perfect.
"911 Operator state your emergency"
"Hello, I have been attacked and have been involved in a shooting at 1010 Main St. a suspect is down and I need an ambulance and police assistance right away. I am wearing a dark blue Yankees baseball cap, a black leather jacket and blue jeans. I am a white male approximatly 6ft. 200 pounds. Please advise the police that I am armed and covering the suspect."
at this point most 911 operators will give you instructions and ask questions regarding the extent of the injuries of the bad guy....will ask if anyone else has been hurt, was involved or armed....Any questions like this are fine to answer. DONT GET INTO HOW THE SHOOTING HAPPENED OTHER THAN TO SAY YOU WERE ATTACKED. LEAVE IT AT THAT....NEVER GET SPECIFIC.....the operator will want you to stay on the line....don't. Hang up to render aid or focus on the bad guy. If you stay on the line you will hang yourself.
1. State situation: "I have been attacked and was involved in a shooting" is perfect. Not too much. Not too little and does not give any clues as to how or why yet explains the need for police and ambulance and alerts the police as to who the perp is likely to be. However just so you know....upon their arrival you have not yet been identified as a "good guy", just the caller or complaintant. Which is better than nothing.
2. State location within the first 2 sentences to get services rolling.
3. Summon ambulance and police....in that order, priority goes to life saving.
4. Describe what you are wearing and your physical description. You WANT them to recognize you. Be specific.
5. Tell dispatch what the police can expect to see upon arrival...i.e.
"I will be administering first aid to the suspect. In this case it may be helpful to keep them on the phone...they can help you. Only answer medical questions though. OR " I will be covering the suspect " however the most strongly advised is to HOLSTER YOUR WEAPON and try to "determine" the condition of the bad guy. You don't have to be a doctor...just see if he is concious....bleeding, how much and where. If he can respond. If he is breathing...etc. You don't have to even patch the holes to be of assistance.
If they ask...tell them you ARE armed...your name...whether or not you are a Security Guard on or off duty...Cop off duty....CHL holder, whatever. Don't Talk about how or what happend. That is off limits. Only questions about identity....the enviroment and medical stuff is permisable. But you don't even have to go there. Just location, what happend in 5 words or less, what you need and who you are/what you look like.
P95Carry
February 4, 2004, 12:06 AM
Thx alduro .. much useful food for thought. Appreciate your trouble and time.:)
VNgo
February 4, 2004, 10:30 AM
If the bad guy is neutralized, one might want to consider rendering first aid. It's much harder for the DA to demonize you as a trigger-happy loon if you treated the bad guy for his gunshot wounds once you've ensured that he's not a threat any more.
"911, what is your emergency?"
"I've been attacked and have been involved in a shooting at _____. One suspect is down, adult male. I am an EMT and have initiated treatment. Vitals are as follows: ____. Suspect has gunshot wound(s) to the ___. I need law enforcement and paramedic backup."
One of the advantages of being an EMT in this situation is that once I've started treatment, the law says I can't turn my patient over to anyone else unless they have equal or better training -- meaning either another EMT, a paramedic, a nurse or a doctor. A convenient side-effect is I can tell the police that I'm too busy to talk to them at the scene, and they cannot force me to do so until I'm properly relieved.
"911, what is your emergency?"
"I've been attacked and have been involved in a shooting at _____. One suspect is down, adult male. I am an EMT and have initiated treatment. Vitals are as follows: ____. Suspect has gunshot wound(s) to the ___. I need law enforcement and paramedic backup."
One of the advantages of being an EMT in this situation is that once I've started treatment, the law says I can't turn my patient over to anyone else unless they have equal or better training -- meaning either another EMT, a paramedic, a nurse or a doctor. A convenient side-effect is I can tell the police that I'm too busy to talk to them at the scene, and they cannot force me to do so until I'm properly relieved.
joelr
February 4, 2004, 10:47 AM
"I need to speak to my attorney, and I do not consent to any search."
Over and over, if necessary.
Over and over, if necessary.
orangeninja
February 4, 2004, 05:49 PM
joelr....you don't have to consent to a search. A search of your person....also called a "Terry Frisk" may be made upon police arrival so they can locate your weapon. This type of search is fully constitutional and the matter is not up to you. As for you car...if they arrest you for a shooting....a search incident to arrest is standard procedure and also your consent matters not a whit. They may also "Terry Frisk" your car.
You see, a dead or mortally wounded human being lying on the ground will easily establish "probable cause" and therefore the police will most likely do whatever they have to, to make sure they get all the likely physical evidence or any weapons that may pose a public threat. Upon arrest...you have the right to remain silent....but you're gonna get searched.
Just want to say great thread guys....you're welcome p95....I just wanted to see what the prevailing attitudes in a lawful shooting would be.
I personally would be following my own advice obviously...but you can bet that the police will know that they are rolling on an "Officer Involved" shooting. Maybe it'll get me the kid gloves treatment....maybe not. But I will take every advantage I can.:D
You see, a dead or mortally wounded human being lying on the ground will easily establish "probable cause" and therefore the police will most likely do whatever they have to, to make sure they get all the likely physical evidence or any weapons that may pose a public threat. Upon arrest...you have the right to remain silent....but you're gonna get searched.
Just want to say great thread guys....you're welcome p95....I just wanted to see what the prevailing attitudes in a lawful shooting would be.
I personally would be following my own advice obviously...but you can bet that the police will know that they are rolling on an "Officer Involved" shooting. Maybe it'll get me the kid gloves treatment....maybe not. But I will take every advantage I can.:D
joelr
February 4, 2004, 05:55 PM
Oh, I know I'll get searched -- under Terry, or any number of other cases. That's fine; I certainly won't resist. But there's never a necessity to consent to a search. Just keep repeating the mantra: "I need to speak to my attorney, and I do not consent to any search."
It may not be up to me whether or not I get searched; it will be up to me if I consent to a search.
Search law is really complicated, and in the event that the right i's weren't dotted and the right t's weren't crossed, it's not at all impossible (unlikely, but not impossible) that something found might be excluded as the product of an illegal search.
Unless, of course, I give my consent. Then, for sure, the search wasn't illegal -- I gave permission, after all.
Uh-uh.
It may not be up to me whether or not I get searched; it will be up to me if I consent to a search.
Search law is really complicated, and in the event that the right i's weren't dotted and the right t's weren't crossed, it's not at all impossible (unlikely, but not impossible) that something found might be excluded as the product of an illegal search.
Unless, of course, I give my consent. Then, for sure, the search wasn't illegal -- I gave permission, after all.
Uh-uh.
orangeninja
February 4, 2004, 06:22 PM
Good point...and yes you are correct. The "Fruit of the Poisionous Tree" thingy....but then all evidence of that search would be inadmissable. However...they really don't even need to ask or use warrantless search....they can hold you there ALL NIGHT while they get a warrant. And don't forget, a warrant in "good faith" does not contaminate evidence EVEN IF the search was invalid. Courts can make mistakes and get away with it...cops can't.
joelr
February 4, 2004, 06:34 PM
Sure, they can hold you. But so what? In the wake of even the most justifiable shooting, you can reliably expect to be arrested, anyway.
Trebor
February 5, 2004, 12:58 AM
You know, instead of hashing this among ourselves, anyone who really wants to know the answer to this question should seek the advice of a qualified and experienced attorney familiar with the law of your own state.
Why take the advice of some guy on the internet for what could be one of the most decisions you ever make?
Personally, I trust the attorney who I use to teach the legal portion of NRA Personal Protection in the Home classes. He said not to say or admit to anything until you've spoken to your attorney, and I see no good reason NOT to take his advice.
One last thought: Asking an attorney this question NOW also gives you the advantage of having an attorney you can call later if needed.
Why take the advice of some guy on the internet for what could be one of the most decisions you ever make?
Personally, I trust the attorney who I use to teach the legal portion of NRA Personal Protection in the Home classes. He said not to say or admit to anything until you've spoken to your attorney, and I see no good reason NOT to take his advice.
One last thought: Asking an attorney this question NOW also gives you the advantage of having an attorney you can call later if needed.
joelr
February 5, 2004, 04:40 AM
Well, yeah; that's exactly what I did, when I wrote the book. I didn't invent "I need to speak to my attorney and I don't consent to any search," after all.
And, you bet, having the number of a good attorney in your wallet is a good idea, although I don't. (I have David Gross' number memorized, instead.)
And, you bet, having the number of a good attorney in your wallet is a good idea, although I don't. (I have David Gross' number memorized, instead.)
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