Incident at School...


Michael R.
November 16, 2011, 06:09 PM
i am a freshman at a local high school in illinois near the border of wisconsin and i have one question concerning hunting and such things(didnt know if this is the right place or not). anyhow. let me give you some background on what is about to happen. my english teacher is how you would expect any teahcer to be, he says he protested many things during the 60s and 70s, and he says he thinks obama is a great speaker(which he isnt), and he doesnt even own a tv. anyhow, today in class we were talking about how children should go outside instead of watching tv, etc. so, eventually we talk about how there are coyotes in the woods.

i raise my hand and talk about how my dad has shot 3 coyotes because they are nuisances where i live, and they kill pets, deer, etc. before i explain why he shoots them, everybody says oh how can you do that! and what not. and his response is "well aren't you harming the coyotes for putting your house on their land". now i would usually would have a good response to this, but i kind of babble things out and i dont give a good answer. after that i now feel like the whole class hates me because i kill cute, fuzzy coyotes.when the class ended, i immediatley decided to post this on THR because the level of knowledge here is simply amazing. what should i have said to the teacher and what should i say if something like this rises up again?
p.s. if i need any further explanations from you guys then just ask, and i will elaborate

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November 16, 2011, 06:28 PM
Don't argue with idiots...they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Seriously, you're not going to change his mind. Just smile at him and know that you are far better off.

Michael R.
November 16, 2011, 06:31 PM
thanks esheato, if there's one way to get nowhere, it's arguing with idiots

November 16, 2011, 06:49 PM
First off, not all teachers are idiots, or anti-gun.
Next, learn how to use capital letters and punctuation, and watch your attitude.

Now that I got all my teacher persona have a few choices.
1. Your friends and those who understand the issue will support you, the rest don't really matter.
2. Agreed, you will not change the teacher's mind, but a quiet, rational, reasoned explanation (with some solid info on the danger of 'yotes to back you up), might earn you a bit of respect with the guy(?) and the class. I welcome disagreement in my classes, but come loaded for bear, 'cuz I already am.
3. Your story about your dad shooting coyotes was a bit off the topic of kids going outside, so perhaps a side discussion with the teacher, explaining what your point was going to be, might help clear the air for the future.

I'm a crusty teacher, so I know how to stay on the good side of crusty teachers. Show a bit of calm thought and respect. Both will go a long way.

Axel Larson
November 16, 2011, 06:51 PM
Thankfully in college most of my professors have been mostly logical but I have gotten into arguments with classmates, I had one who thought you had to have a "license" to carry in Vermont(my project in class dealt with firearms laws) . Anyhow just tell them what you know, would they rather shoot a coyote or have their live stock/ pets eaten. Not to mention that coyotes can even become aggressive towards humans. In my opinion they are far worse than wolves. You will never reach some people but you may persuade others.

November 16, 2011, 07:01 PM
Hey man, I am in H.S. as well, I have gotten that same BS as well (you are talking to a coyote hunter here, fyi) and you should respond in telling them that coyotes have been known to kill small children, get rabies and spread it to multiple other animals, an not to mention they don't really care about houses- they actually do live in cities, even large ones like Spokane and Seattle. So unless they want rabid, child- killers loose in the public, they should give you an ear about this.

Do they need proof? Here is a list of deaths & attacks on humans.

November 16, 2011, 07:20 PM
In order for an argument or debate of any kind to be at all productive, both parties have to agree on some basic tenets. If they don't, it's just not gonna happen. Kind of like the NRA vs. PETA debates. One group believes that animals are as important and should have the same rights as people. The other group believes animals are a resource to be used and appreciated but not given the same rights as humans. Unless they agree on the basic concept to begin with, a debate about hunting and/or wildlife management will get nowhere. Same thing with your teacher and other students. Don't waste time arguing with people when you aren't starting from the same base. The old Mark Twain statement quoted by a couple others is very true.

Michael R.
November 16, 2011, 07:42 PM
I agree with all of you. Johnnyc, I really need to start thinking before I act and realize the implications of what i am saying. I was not stereotyping about teachers, just the ones who are idiots. I will remember to back up my statements with evidence as well.

November 16, 2011, 07:47 PM
Moving this down to Hunting, I suspect some of the hunters can explain overpopulation of wild animals in a way your teacher and others would understand.

You may not change their minds, but at least you will be able to try armed with good information.

Overpopulation, inbreeding... all kinds of reasons to control many animals. Even non emotional animal rights folks agree with the majority of it.

November 16, 2011, 07:57 PM
Michael! I am an old man, and I have taught, but mostly adults...

These are my rules: First person that raises their voice looses. First person that attacks the other PERSON and does not stay on topic, looses.

Any time these two things come up in any discussion, it is no longer a discussion but time to walk away. And do that, just walk away.

Remember, some people have "other' value systems. (ie animals are just as/or even more important than humans). Do not ingage in any "discussion" about hunting with is not possible...ignore them. If you must try to talk about guns, stay on target shooting, if you bring hunting into it, their emotions will cloud their logic to the point they cannot think. OK?

Michael R.
November 16, 2011, 08:45 PM
I agree with you totally. Keep my mouth shut and avoid any off topic discussion. Thanks for your help everyone.

Axel Larson
November 16, 2011, 09:02 PM
I respectively disagree go ahead and bring hunting into the conversion.Hunting is a way of life for many people that live in Vermont. I also realize that you probably don't have that many country folk in your class considering it is in Illinois but if you do not explain to them the values involved in hunting and shooting they will not know them. But when it comes down to it it is your call whether or not to deal with trying to show people logic.

Arkansas Paul
November 16, 2011, 10:17 PM
I have a policy never to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

November 16, 2011, 10:56 PM
First off, not all teachers are idiots, or anti-gun.

More and more they are, but not all. I married one of the few that isn't...a college professor, too. Go figure. Colleges are INFESTED with liberals that infect our youngsters with all sorts of crap. Brainwashed, mind numbed idiots are far to often the results of their "education". It's sick. So, just keep YOUR head clear. I've been a member of the NRA since the age of 14 and it gave me the info I needed to satisfy my political development in a world of leftists. :D However, I attended Texas A&M University, a rather conservative school at the time, and even majored in Wildlife and Fisheries management, which is NOT the bailiwick of liberals, or wasn't at the time. We had two kinds of students in that career path, though, the rural kid hunters and fishermen types like me and, more and more, were the granola cruncher eco save the world types, the ones that wanted funding for game management to be diverted to song bird research (even though HUNTERS do the funding), that sort of thing. So, I don't know what it's like up there, now. I'm retired and don't give a damn, frankly. LOL

Sounds like you have YOUR head on strait, so I'd just ignore the idiots. There are plenty of 'em out there in academia, trust me.

November 16, 2011, 11:19 PM
Anytime you encounter a grown adult that uses phrases like this "well aren't you harming the coyotes for putting your house on their land?. You must realize that you are not dealing with a rational person.

Don't engage in back and forth debate with one, you can't win.

Art Eatman
November 16, 2011, 11:29 PM
Agree with BCCL. The teacher's comment is not at all rational. Just words to support an emotional opinion, and not even directly related to being against shooting a coyote.

It's a waste of time to argue or even try to discuss an issue with somebody whose entire thesis is based upon emotion.

November 16, 2011, 11:51 PM
I don't even waste time trying to convince people hunting is the right thing. Many have already made up their mind. I do not feel like I have to explain myself to anybody, especially when what I am doing is legal and to me- ethical.

When people want me to explain the reason I hunt, I tell them they have to try it to understand. Words cannot describe (at least my words anyway) the way it feels to be out in the wild with the intent of harvesting an animal. It just feels natural. It just feels right. I love sharing that feeling with others, but if they don't want to then it is their loss.

November 17, 2011, 04:48 AM
I've had similar 'conversations' in class, too. I'm sure most of us here have.

What has been said is true; you can't win an argument with someone who always knows better than you without ever having been properly educated. Too few people in our country understand the neccesary balance of life and death and will always demonize you if they don't like what you do. It's this intolerable ingorance that is destroying us all though.

November 17, 2011, 04:58 AM
I have a policy never to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

great quote! i wonder who wrote it.

As for the teacher thing. I echo the words or wisdom above...

Art Eatman
November 17, 2011, 10:04 AM
interlock, I first heard that from a comedian named Woody Woodbury onstage in Fort Lauderdale in about 1961.

WNC Seabee
November 17, 2011, 11:07 AM
Share this story with your class....

November 17, 2011, 11:20 AM
He's an English teacher, right? You could ask that teacher why he is anthropomorphizing wild animals. He might be so shocked at your width of vocabulary that it shuts him up. :D

Arkansas Paul
November 17, 2011, 11:32 AM
great quote! i wonder who wrote it.

Not sure where it originated. I don't even remember where I heard it, but I love it. :)

November 17, 2011, 11:52 AM
If he thinks coyotes are great, maybe he should be introduced to one in a locked room. It amazes me how many people develop bonds with things in life they have no overall experience with.

November 17, 2011, 11:57 AM
show them a picture of a coyote infected with mange and explain how it can spread. I doubt that too many will fault your for killing the cute, cuddly coyote.

The Termite
November 17, 2011, 12:19 PM
Colleges are INFESTED with liberals that infect our youngsters with all sorts of crap. Brainwashed, mind numbed idiots are far to often the results of their "education".
Mostly in the liberal arts departments.
Engineering and science professors are more "down to earth". "How you FEEL" about something isn't really important when you are trying to figure the size of a concrete archway that will be holding up a road bridge. Either it's strong enough, or it isn't.

November 17, 2011, 01:19 PM
Mostly in the liberal arts departments.
Engineering and science professors are more "down to earth".

Still lots of liberals even in technical fields, or so says my wife who is a professor of computer science. BUT, you're probably right that there are way more in liberal arts, but I think the overall liberal politic is far higher even in technical fields amongst academia than it is in the general population. But, if you're there to learn FORTRAN, just how much does politics come up in the classroom? :D A political science course, required in Texas for undergraduates in all fields, well, hell, that's what it's about.

The college I attended was all military until 1967 and their strong suit is engineering and agriculture, so it was a pretty conservative school. No sit ins there, just beer parties, and I was there at the end of the vietnam war. :D I don't recall anyone yaking a lot about politics, at least world politics, when I was in school. We were all worried about tests and finals, what school is supposed to be about, after all.

November 17, 2011, 01:36 PM
Sounds like you have the right idea. Like stated above don't argue with idiot's. Read like crazy on coyote management. You wont convince everyone, that's fine you might get one kid interested in hunting. Wear some coyote hides to school this winter. It will gain the interest of some of the other students.

November 17, 2011, 01:41 PM
Wear some coyote hides to school this winter. It will gain the interest of some of the other students.

Or get red ink tossed on you if you're anywhere near Berkley. :D

November 17, 2011, 06:00 PM
Throwing ink on people is a bad idea. I am sure the liberals would try to ban fur at school after that. Who knows might come from that.

November 17, 2011, 07:01 PM
Lots of great points mentioned. I would add just one thing. Don't be too hard on yourself. You were expressing an opinion that you probably knew would not be a popular one and doing it with all eyes on you. That can cause a moment of stress, and that in turn can make you say things you normally would not.

Best thing to do is to continue to educate yourself on the topic. Know the ins and outs of both sides, and be prepared to present your case (if the opportunity truly presents itself) in an articulate and well informed manner. Remember, when it comes to the rights of animals, you have the upper hand on every omnivorous animal rights activist out there who chooses not to "kill" animals, but is more than happy to gluttonize their bulging anatomy with the likes of t-bone steaks, fried chicken, and a multitude of McGreasies! --Not to mention one who lives in a house which displaced the home of a once proud and innocent species of wildlife. OH THE HYPOCRACY OF IT ALL!

der Teufel
November 17, 2011, 11:13 PM
I wasn't there, but it sounds like the teacher didn't pursue the argument. That is, they proposed a counter-point that put them (the teacher) in a sort of devil's advocate position, and gave you a chance to respond. You admit that you weren't fully prepared to follow up and defend your initial statement, and it seems the teacher let things drop.

If that's correct, the teacher may have done you a favor. You're now working to prepare good arguments in the event the topic arises again, and probably you'll start thinking ahead a move or three during discussion. A thought process along the line of "If I say X, how will it be interpreted, and how can I either avoid misinterpretation or defend/explain it if it is properly understood?" can make you a better communicator. Assuming that indeed the teacher did not continue to attempt to embarrass you or 'paint you in a corner' his actions may have been made with good intention. It sounds like you're already learning from the experience.

November 17, 2011, 11:24 PM
Don't argue with idiots...they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Thats good advice...

But one argument could be that without hunting, animals would get over populated which leads to all kinds of "endings" that are far worse than being shot by a hunter...such as disease and starvation.

November 18, 2011, 08:19 AM
First off, not all teachers are idiots, or anti-gun.

I'd like to stress this. I recently retired after 30 years of teaching and coaching high school sports. Sometimes, some folks paint with a broad brush and put all of us into the same category. In 30 years I worked with 7 different principals. Every one was a gun owner and hunter, two ex military, 1 shoots quite often at the same range I belong to and another is the son-in law of one of the most respected gunsmith's in the area.

I can honestly say that I never encountered any of the bias about hunting and shooting that some post about on the net. I suppose it depends a lot on the part of the country you live in.

Axel Larson
November 18, 2011, 08:37 AM
I have had some anti gun teachers but I have had more pro gun or neutral teachers, maybe it is because I am at the a community college. In fact I talk to two teachers there off and on about guns when I see them. One is a Police Chief who loves Russian surplus.

November 18, 2011, 08:59 AM
one of my favorite arguments with teachers and guns was with my 8th grade history teacher who was telling the class how dangerous and evil guns are and how they've caused nothing but damage yadayadayah... one of the students explained, "If it weren't for firepower, you'd probably be a slave right now."

...and I'd like to stress THIS; far too many 'teachers' ARE idiots.

Art Eatman
November 18, 2011, 09:42 AM
We're likely wearing the poor old horse down beyond resurrection. :D Enough for now, looks like.

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