How Many Carry a 1911 with FMJ Ammo?


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LCPor9mm
December 5, 2011, 08:45 PM
I don't foam at the mouth either over HP for .45s and often carry mine with 230 grn hardball. I am confident that my gun will function as designed and not worried that I don't have the latest and greatest MANSTOPPER bullet.
That being said I am not opposed to change and will probably purchase some of the ammo posted in this thread for my nines, and at some point in the future my 45s.

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Trent
December 5, 2011, 09:05 PM
*IF* we had concealed carry in Illinois, I'd carry the 1911 in a heartbeat. My Springfield 1911 GI model (with walnut grips!) feeds my 185gr Golden Saber load perfectly. It is also consistently the highest velocity handgun I own in 45 ACP, out of 7 different models of 45's. Great barrel. :)

When I shoot the 1911 in competition shooting, I tend to be far more diligent to make my shots count more. Taking an extra shot on a Glock 21 to put one in the A ring or to drop a pin might cost me a .3 split. Having to RELOAD an extra time.. jeez. That's damn costly.

I highly doubt that in the cosmically-unlikely event I'd ever need to use a gun in self defense that I'll need more than 8 shots. This being said, I'm the crazy bastard that sleeps with a PS90 next to the bed... because you just never know. :)

As far as what you guys call "social work"? What the hell am I going to do with 13 rounds that I can't do with 8? If I'm up against more than 4 bad guys chances are I screwed up something fierce earlier in the decision making process and very likely deserve what I have coming to me. :)

Prosser
December 5, 2011, 09:17 PM
Trent:
Sometimes it's not about you, and, you have no control over the situation.

For instance 3 huge guys decide to beat some white guy up. Why?
They get kicked out of a bowling alley, being drunk and high, by a white, skinny,
manager.

They come in a side door, see the only other white guy in the alley, follow him into the bathroom, and beat him over the head with a Walther PPKS.

I guess you could say that the person had control, in that he could have made the choice not to be there. That is the liberal position on firearms. Give up your freedom to be absolutely, pretty much safe, by not going into areas that have possible criminal behavior.

This place, Mel's bowling alley in Alemeda, Kali, is sort of a melting pot of people that come in and bowl there. A hate crime? Not likely, but, drugs and alcohol do strange things, and so do people when the drugs and alcohol are in control. Never caught the guys, either.

David E
December 5, 2011, 10:06 PM
Now I may not be the rocket scientist you are, but even I can see those two statements are discribing two completely different actions.r

Hey, you're catching on! The statements describe what can happen WITH the poly plug and WITHOUT the poly plug.

I also don't spend a lot of time in the kitchen with cookie cutters, but your analogy of hollow points punching out little discs of clothing that collect inside doesn't make any sense if your statement "The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself" is to be taken as fact.

A bullet WITHOUT the poly plug will typically cut discs of fabric that collect in the hollowpoint, thereby likely affecting the expansion.

For me to attempt to explain further will only repeat what I've already posted.

If you want to learn more, I suggest rereading my previous posts and googling some videos showing the Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo and ballistic gelatin testing.

Prosser
December 5, 2011, 10:19 PM
The good news is you have a flat point bullet that works well, if it doesn't expand, in .45 caliber. Better then FMJ.

LCPor9mm
December 6, 2011, 10:38 AM
A bullet WITHOUT the poly plug will typically cut discs of fabric that collect in the hollowpoint, thereby likely affecting the expansion.

For me to attempt to explain further will only repeat what I've already posted.

If you want to learn more, I suggest rereading my previous posts and googling some videos showing the Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo and ballistic gelatin testing.

Great diversionary tactic David. Without explaining what you already posted you have brought up more useless information.
I will pass on rereading any of your previous posts, as I have done my own research and satisfied my curiosity, which is apparently what I should have done in the first place.

amd6547
December 6, 2011, 12:24 PM
"...As far as what you guys call "social work"? What the hell am I going to do with 13 rounds that I can't do with 8?..."

You just never know. I recently read an account of a bad breath distance shootout between a cop and a bad guy. Cop had a Glock 21, bad guy had a Sig 220...It took 14rds with 7 hits to put the guy down, using CorBon 185gn +P...the cop changed to 230gn Gold Dot after the shooting. The cop ended the shooting on the ground with a hole through his leg. The bad guy, BTW survived. The cop was a 20yr vet and a SWAT team member with SWAT training...The entire shootout lasted between 5 and 10 SECONDS.
Here is a link, story starts on page 32...by Mas Ayoob:
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/

David E
December 6, 2011, 01:02 PM
Great diversionary tactic David. Without explaining what you already posted you have brought up more useless information.
I will pass on rereading any of your previous posts, as I have done my own research and satisfied my curiosity, which is apparently what I should have done in the first place.

Yes, you should've done your own research in the first place. If you had, maybe you wouldn't still be so dang confused. It wasn't a diversion, it was a valid suggestion since you seemed to keep struggling with understanding the information.

After my last post, I decided to see how hard it would be to find the information I was posting. Answer: about 7 seconds. I found a lot of information, including videos. Take a look and maybe you'll understand....or maybe not, but it's all I can do for you at this point.

Robert101
December 6, 2011, 01:47 PM
Does a SWC with a large metplat have any bearing on this thread? Ooops, did I just say that?

mavracer
December 6, 2011, 02:04 PM
Does a SWC with a large metplat have any bearing on this thread?
Probably not while they are better than ball ammo for terminal wounding they are probably the most problematic design with reguard to feeding issues.
Of course when I carry my Goldcup (not often) that's what's in it.

Lucky Derby
December 6, 2011, 02:15 PM
Does a SWC with a large metplat have any bearing on this thread? Ooops, did I just say that?
They do work great in my .45 Colt revolvers.

S.B.
December 6, 2011, 02:18 PM
United Soviet Socialist Republic(quite a handle, considering they were our enemies. Sorry I'm not politically correct.), how much actual testing have you done with this?
Steve

JTQ
December 6, 2011, 02:32 PM
LCPor9mm wrote,
After an hour or two searching the internet for an explanation as to why hollow points don’t reliably expand. Here’s what I came up with:

Hollow points in the traditional sense rely on hydraulic pressure in the hollow cavity to expand. The designers have taken advantage of the fact that the human body is approximately 60% liquid. This expansion does not always take place if the cavity “fills up” with clothing because hydraulic pressure from the fluids in the body is required to “split” the bullet open. If the cavity is filled with enough clothing, the design pressures are not reached and the bullet doesn’t open.

The next type of “hollow point” isn’t really hollow at all. It has what Hornaday refers to as a flexible tip that compresses to open the cavity, preventing clogging and better controlling expansion by a means of what I like to call self contained hydraulics.
LCPor9mm doesn't your research here confirm what DavidE has been saying? I'm not sure what your argument is?

mljdeckard
December 6, 2011, 02:39 PM
I highly doubt that it is either as common as Hornady claims it is, or that their CD ammo is any more or less likely to expand through clothing than any other premium JHP ammo. It's not like everyone making bullets BEFORE this one assumed that they would be hitting naked people. I think Hornady largely invented the problem.

USSR
December 6, 2011, 02:53 PM
United Soviet Socialist Republic(quite a handle, considering they were our enemies. Sorry I'm not politically correct.), how much actual testing have you done with this?
Steve

Hmm, Steve. You know what they say about those that "ASSume"? Oh, and with your false assumption, you even blew what you think it stands for.

Don

Sniper X
December 6, 2011, 02:59 PM
Considering most "bad guys" are running from you, spraying and praying, the chance of you getting off one shot is slim. Unless of course you get that shot off before the bad guy or guys start to run off!. Seems every gun fight gone bad I see on The First 48, or Cops or even read about starts and ends like that. I will say that it is about 90% possibility that if we here ever do have to use our gun in a firefight, it will be with someone trying a home invasion or a regular burglar or robber who doesn't have a gun.

Fastcast
December 6, 2011, 03:04 PM
What the hell am I going to do with 13 rounds that I can't do with 8? If I'm up against more than 4 bad guys chances are I screwed up something fierce earlier in the decision making process and very likely deserve what I have coming to me. :)

Apparently you've never seen a gang of sloths hanging outside your local mall/mart, looking for a free lunch.

mljdeckard
December 6, 2011, 03:52 PM
If there was an entire gang of 'sloths', and you decide to take them all on with a pistol, you won't have time to shoot all of your 12 or 15 rounds either. You will be outgunned, they will rush you, or when bullets start flying they will disperse.

We don't live in Melgibsonland where you routinely fire fifteen straight shots without a chance to reload. I strongly feel that rather than depend on a higher magazine capacity, you should be practicing reloads. Even your double-stack can jam.

Fastcast
December 6, 2011, 04:01 PM
Than why are LEOs now carrying hi-cap and not revolvers? :scrutiny:

mavracer
December 6, 2011, 04:02 PM
I strongly feel that rather than depend on a higher magazine capacity, you should be practicing reloads while moving.
there fixed it for ya.;)

S.B.
December 6, 2011, 04:18 PM
Trent, where in Illinios are you? I'm right where I55 crosses rt. 116.
USSR, your choice of handles, not mine. Just a natural assumtion.
Steve

Fastcast
December 6, 2011, 04:23 PM
On another thought why do some assume because one carries a hi-cap pistol, they don't practice reloads?

You can bet most the sloths are carrying hi-cap. Who wants to reload before them but I do agree, it probably won't even get that far.

Hell, I don't always carry hi-cap but there is a comfort zone in doing so.....I've always been an advocate of less is more, with many things in life but certainly not when it comes to bullets....YMMV

Thread derail....I'll try and graciously back out now.

KodiakBeer
December 6, 2011, 04:30 PM
The whole argument just seems silly to me.

If your HP doesn't expand, you're no worse off than using FMJ.

If your gun doesn't feed HP's, it's broke. Either choose a different HP that it will feed, or get it fixed.

1911Tuner
December 6, 2011, 04:31 PM
It's not like everyone making bullets BEFORE this one assumed that they would be hitting naked people. I think Hornady largely invented the problem.

About 12 years ago, I was forced to shoot a fairly large, extremely aggressive dog. The 230-grain Federal Hydra Shok bullet passed through the dog lengthwise, and my walking companion found the bullet about 20 feet from the downed dog. It had apparently barely made it through, and skittered along the ground. If she hadn't seen it glint in the sunlight, I'd have never found it.

Aside from the rifling marks, it could have been reloaded and fired again.

That one made two over the course of 22 years. The other one was shot...also lengthwise through and through...with a 210-grain cast SWC loaded to a mv of about 1,000 fps. Neither animal stepped out of its tracks.

481
December 6, 2011, 04:49 PM
Good stuff, Tuner.

Many lose sight of the fact that it ain't the ammunition that's important: its what you hit with the ammunition that matters most.

It seems like an over-simplification, but it ain't.

LCPor9mm
December 6, 2011, 05:21 PM
David:
I said this
Quote:
Originally Posted by LCPor9mm
I mean if the hollow point is designed to "catch" material to expand, why would it matter what that material was?
I was confused.
Then you said this:

Because it does. Not all material acts the same. Would you expect water and drywall to have the same effect on the hollowpoint? If you do, then you might want to test your theory first.
Hornady's Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo addresses the issue pretty well. The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself and acts upon the bullet in a fairly consistent manner regardless of what material it encounters. Standard hollowpoints typically do not.

Closing in on itself is a poor choice of words and incorrectly discribes the action that takes place.
I researched the internet and found my answer, which is: The plug is used to prevent clogging or filling up, NOT to prevent the bullet from CLOSING IN ON ITSELF as you had indicated. This is the correct answer I am not confused.

Prosser
December 6, 2011, 05:29 PM
A non-expanding HP, as a general rule, has a better shape for straight line penetration then a RNFMJ. It's essentially a Truncated cone, or flat point, and, it will likely penetrate straighter then RN. You don't loose, except your wallet is considerably lighter, offering less protection, and less practice.

mavracer
December 6, 2011, 05:54 PM
I researched the internet and found my answer, which is: The plug is used to prevent clogging or filling up, NOT to prevent the bullet from CLOSING IN ON ITSELF as you had indicated. This is the correct answer I am not confused.
You still seam to be. Bullets are designed to expand cconsistaantly after going through a wide variety of different material. FBI protocal requires them to be shot through glass and sheet metal as well as sheet rock and clothing(both heavy and light cloth) the plug helps with both hard and soft mediums. It helps keep the tip from closing while going thru glass and sheet metal as well as keeping it from getting clogged by clothing and/or sheet rock. It's an attemp to make the bullet work better over a wide set of vairiables. Bullet companys know what the tests are and for the most paart succeed in improving how consistant bullets work.

LCPor9mm
December 6, 2011, 07:08 PM
That's an interesting side note MAV, but irrelevant to my post. I don't care about water, glass, sheetrock or metal. Neither am I interested in FBI protocol. I was unclear how clothing could clog up a hollow point. I have found my answer and you and your buddy David have been, and continue to be of no use to me.

David E
December 6, 2011, 07:22 PM
.

Closing in on itself is a poor choice of words and incorrectly discribes the action that takes place.
I researched the internet and found my answer, which is: The plug is used to prevent clogging or filling up, NOT to prevent the bullet from CLOSING IN ON ITSELF as you had indicated. This is the correct answer I am not confused.

(sigh) Looks like you stopped researching too soon.

It does both, depending what the bullet hits.

If it hits clothing, there is little chance of the HP closing in on itself. That's where the "cookie cutter" effect is neutralized by the poly plug.

But if the bullet hits drywall, plywood glass or steel, the chances of the HP closing in on itself increase. The poly plug minimizes this possibility.

The Hornady engineer stated this, but compared to your vast minutes of online research, what does he know? :rolleyes:

Trent
December 6, 2011, 07:47 PM
Trent:
Sometimes it's not about you, and, you have no control over the situation.

For instance...(snip)

Oh I completely understand, Prosser. In Illinois I have to be mindful of where and how I travel to avoid anything excessively high risk, as we aren't allowed to carry anything, period. So if I get jumped by 3 or 4 (or more) guys somewhere, I've managed to put myself in a place where I shouldn't have been.

If I were allowed to carry, and I'm able to successfully defend myself against the first 2 or 3 attackers that are coming at me, any MORE than that will likely make tracks, fast, in the other direction.

You are correct in that I *HAVE* had to give up my freedom to go wherever I want, any time I want (I won't carry illegally). ***

When I had my gun shop, I carried a Glock 19 and kept a 12 gauge under the counter. My grandfather (who was retired, and worked there off and on) always kept a S&W M&P 45 loaded, and Charles carried an XD45.

I wouldn't carry a 1911 in a gun shop - the risk of getting hit by multiple people was too high, and 7 or 8+1, just ain't enough.

*** This is the reason we have annual IGOLD rallies in Springfield, IL, BTW. :)

1911Tuner
December 6, 2011, 07:54 PM
I researched the internet and found my answer, which is: The plug is used to prevent clogging or filling up, NOT to prevent the bullet from CLOSING IN ON ITSELF...

It does both. Although it's primarily designed to prevent clogging and initiate expansion by being driven into the bullet's core...it also initiates that expansion no matter what it hits. A conventional hollowpoint will collapse inward when it hits the hard stuff. Drywall probably isn't hard enough to collaspse it, but a solid wood door is, and it also clogs the cavity with wood chips.

Conventional hollowpoints need hydraulic pressure to initiate expansion. If it gets plugged with dry material, expansion probably ain't gonna happen.

LCPor9mm
December 6, 2011, 08:12 PM
If it hits clothing, there is little chance of the HP closing in on itself.
Thank you David, I agree. A poor choice of words.

Conventional hollowpoints need hydraulic pressure to initiate expansion. If it gets plugged with dry material, expansion probably ain't gonna happen.
Well put. I only wish David had made that statement so clear and precicse.

DLEJones
December 7, 2011, 08:08 PM
230 gr Federal Hydra-Shok in the full size Springfield 1911-A1 (if good enough for the FBI they're good enough for me)
and
165 gr Federal Hydra-Shok in the compact Springfield Micro...

David E
December 9, 2011, 03:24 AM
Thank you David, I agree. A poor choice of words.


Well put. I only wish David had made that statement so clear and precicse.

Dang. I thought that was so intrinsic that everyone understood that. :rolleyes: You even said you understood that drywall and water affected hollowpoints differently....my bad.

SharpsDressedMan
December 9, 2011, 04:57 PM
OK, how many of you use ammo that has this plug in the hollowpoint? If an HP is better than FMJ, is the "tipped" or "filled" HP better than an open HP?

David E
December 11, 2011, 11:35 AM
Perhaps you should read all the previous posts in this thread that discuss that very thing. :rolleyes:

EvilGenius
December 11, 2011, 04:38 PM
OK, how many of you use ammo that has this plug in the hollowpoint? If an HP is better than FMJ, is the "tipped" or "filled" HP better than an open HP?
Yes...

Apparently....

SharpsDressedMan
December 11, 2011, 04:54 PM
David E: "Perhaps you should read all the previous posts in this thread that discuss that very thing."
Me: David, perhaps you should read the part where I ask, specifically, who carries these HP's with the filled tip, and asked THEM to comment. :rolleyes: Obviously, those few feel differently than the masses that use the regular HP's. Are we ALL going to dump the conventional HP's for the new plastic tipped ones, because they APPARENTLY are a little better? Where does it stop?

David E
December 11, 2011, 06:59 PM
Me: I ask, specifically, who carries these HP's with the filled tip, and asked THEM to comment. :rolleyes:

I do and i did.

Your second question has already been addressed and discussed rather extensively in this thread.

Are we ALL going to dump the conventional HP's for the new plastic tipped ones, because they APPARENTLY are a little better?

No, because most people don't care. They feel "comfortable" with .22's, are confident they can place their shots with surgical precision while taking incoming fire, in the dark, while moving etc, etc, etc.

Me, I'm not as good as everyone else here, so I'll take any practical advantage I can.

YMMV, IMHO, GMTA, LTNS, AFK, WYWTD, FMJISAOK, IDCWYD, etc.

SharpsDressedMan
December 11, 2011, 07:20 PM
We have had a lot of comment, but my question still remains for the few, very few people, that have (in use or carry) and/or have used the new poly-tipped stuff. Do we have any real life shootings, or is it all marketing and conjecture. Even hunting with the darn stuff ought to tell us something. Any hunters out there? David E, do you have any results of performance you can share? Howm many others are using the stuff?

DLEJones
December 11, 2011, 09:07 PM
This may not apply but I have used them hunting.

The only plastic filled hollow points I used were in hunting. They are the V-Max bullet and will sometimes turn a groundhog inside out. If you hit them anywhere they die. Once and a while, there is no exit hole and they feel mushy, as in total energy transfer.

I have never shot them with solids or non-plastic tipped hollow points so I don't know if what I saw was typical. They were 40 grain .22's - loaded in a 22-250 case moving 4150fps. 1" low at 100 and 300 and zero at 200. I shot one walking at 329 yards in the jaw and he expired without finishing his step.

NMGonzo
December 11, 2011, 09:33 PM
Big holes original recipee.

1911Tuner
December 11, 2011, 09:34 PM
Nosler Ballistic Tips are serious Whitetail medicine.

SharpsDressedMan
December 11, 2011, 10:26 PM
I think we are better off comparing pistol rounds here. The performance of any Mach III rifle ammo is going to be abit different.............

NG VI
December 14, 2011, 08:20 PM
OK, how many of you use ammo that has this plug in the hollowpoint? If an HP is better than FMJ, is the "tipped" or "filled" HP better than an open HP?

No, because the tipped bullets in question don't expand as much as several other bullets that are as consistent as you could hope for, and they were designed to not reach the FBI-recommended 12 inches of penetration, while the other bullets were.

They may be very consistent, but their overall performance is still pretty short of the HST and 4th gen Ranger-T bullets, and not really any better than the Gold Dot/PDX type bullets.

I'd say they offer some nice qualities compared to the older XTP and Golden Saber, and generic hollowpoints, but compared to the other premium loads, not so much, and they still have drawbacks compared to the other bullet their company offers.

kyletx1911
December 14, 2011, 09:10 PM
Mine eat both fmj"s run great but i carry ball in mine most of the time

neilin
December 14, 2011, 10:47 PM
.45 FMJ always. I have talked to a number of veterans who used them in wartime. There is no question about the stopping power of FMJs. I no longer waste my money on the expensive hollow points that younger shooters seem to be impressed with. Also, feeding may be questionable with some hollow points.

Bovice
December 14, 2011, 10:50 PM
I no longer waste my money on the expensive hollow points that younger shooters seem to be impressed with.

We also shoot modern guns that feed this expensive modern ammunition just fine.

SharpsDressedMan
December 15, 2011, 01:18 AM
I'm glad I asked the question. This has been very interesting. I don't think either "side" has been swayed, though. Both sides have strong opinions, and strong wills. :D

JRH6856
December 15, 2011, 02:21 AM
Stopped is stopped. Down is down. Dead is dead. Jeff Cooper praised the .45ACP Hardball for its stopping power. This power was due to the bullet diameter and weight. He had the same opinion of the .44 Special for the same reason, but preferred the 1911 platform over a revolver for its extra capacity and ease of reloading. Then he started IPSC with its major and minor calibers and the race was on to make smaller calibers as effective as the larger ones. The ammo companies saw a marketing opportunity and soon we had light weight JHPs in .357, .38+P, and 9mm claiming to expand to the diameter of a .45 hardball and thus deliver the same or better stopping power. Well, can't have those pipsqueaks challenging the almighty .45 so whats good for the goose is good for the gander, and here came the .45ACP JHPs. By golly, we'll show them. Now lets see the .38s expand to .50 or .60. And so it goes.

But what did not change is the fact that the .45ACP Hardball still delivers the same stopping power it did when it was declared the premier SD round and, since homo sapiens has not evidenced significant evolutionary change in the last 100 years, the .45 caliber still performs the same way as it did in the Thompson-Legarde tests 100 years ago, which lead to the US Army adopting it. It will do the job and stop the fight and do it reliably. So will a .45 JHP, JFN, or LTC.

Security is a state of mind, so carry what makes you feel most secure. If you are more secure believing you are making a bigger hole, fine. If you are more secure believing the bullet is going to come out of the barrel every time, fine. The BG that gets shot won't care. Stopped is stopped, Down is down, Dead is dead.

-jrh

(BTW: .45ACP 230gr FMJ; 9mm 124gr JHP; .380 95 gr FMJ. FWIW)

1911Tuner
December 15, 2011, 04:31 AM
Lee Jurras got the ball rolling on light, fast JHP ammunition with his "Supervel" brand. IIRC, his first excursion was 110-grain .38 Special, followed shortly after by 185-grain .45 ACP. JHP bullet technology was a bit lacking, and the bullets didn't perform all that well...but the stage was set.

Remember also that Cooper's personal experience with .45 hardball's stopping power was limited to three starving, exhausted Japanese soldiers that he shot at close range. He may have witnessed others, but those were the ones that he always mentioned. Hardball may not do quite as well against a 250-pounder who spent the last 10 years pumping iron in the prison yard. Of course, under those circumstances, a hollowpoint may not do a lot better...which is why we shoot until he's down or until the slide locks.

dom1104
December 15, 2011, 11:30 AM
Wait.. Supervel is a ... thing?

I used to buy them ammo from Jurras....

I still have cases of the stuff. Mostly his "seconds". The boxes are yellow and red.

And a barrel of ... weird items.

Backwards bullets, strange wadcutters, solid copper bullets...

I dont shoot it much, it seem VERY VERY hot...and I worry about the quality of it.

I thought he was just local guy, ammo loader.

I gotta look into this.

JRH6856
December 15, 2011, 12:33 PM
Lee Jurras got the ball rolling on light, fast JHP ammunition with his "Supervel" brand. IIRC, his first excursion was 110-grain .38 Special, followed shortly after by 185-grain .45 ACP. JHP bullet technology was a bit lacking, and the bullets didn't perform all that well...but the stage was set.

I think there was also a 125 grain .357 in there as well. It has been a progression. Elmer Keith started the magnum phase pushing heavy bullets faster. Then Jurras started pushing lighter bullets faster still.

Hardball may not do quite as well against a 250-pounder who spent the last 10 years pumping iron in the prison yard. Of course, under those circumstances, a hollowpoint may not do a lot better...which is why we shoot until he's down or until the slide locks.

"Two in the body, one in the head guarantees he's really dead."

It's also why Dirty Harry carried a .44 Magnum.:rolleyes: Then, there is always the Desert Eagle and .50AE. (Fish is lucky he only had a 10mm).

Slow and heavy, light and fast, or heavy and fast. Solid, HP or FMJ. I don't want to get hit with any of them.

1911Tuner
December 15, 2011, 01:22 PM
Here ya go, Dom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Jurras

Elmer Keith started the magnum phase pushing heavy bullets faster.

There were a few things that led to the development of the .357 Magnum. Keith was one of them with his loading heavy .38 Special cases with a 160-grain cast SWC to 1200 fps, which led to the .38-44HD revolvers and ammunition. The problems started when Joe Blow ignored the warnings to only use the ammo in large-framed Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers...and fired it in the .38 Hand Ejector models...later known as K-Frame/Model 10...and shot revolvers apart while-u-wait. Smith & Wesson responded by stretching the case and chambering their big N-Frames for it, even though the .38-44 ammunition remained in the catalogs for several years.

His work with heavy .44 Special loadings led to the .44 Magnum. He approached Remington Arms with his idea for the cartridge, who told by Smith & Wesson that they'd wrap a gun around any reasonable cartridge that they came up with. A case with the .44 Magnum headstamp was found in a trash dump...delivered to Bill Ruger...and he got the jump on the market by introducing his big.44 Magnum Blackhawk...later to become the Super Blackhawk. The proper name for the .44 Magnum cartridge is .44 Remington Magnum...and "Magnum" is a Smith & Wesson trademark. Only Smith & Wesson revolvers may have the word included in the model's name. All others must be rollmarked: ".357 Magnum/.44 Magnum, etc ctg" to designate the caliber without Smith's permission.

S.B.
December 15, 2011, 01:35 PM
I thought wikipedia was a site where anyone could contribute their personal opinions(after registering) whether true or not??? Don't take me wrong here, I'm not suggesting your info is false about Jurras. Without him, the handgun shooting public would be far behind what it has become.
Steve

1911Tuner
December 15, 2011, 01:45 PM
Okay then...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_187_31/ai_n27177544/

Hangingrock
December 15, 2011, 02:27 PM
Cooper at the right time and place with the ability to articulate his position in the pages of Guns & Ammo. That got the ball rolling.

Cooper’s WW2 service was basically spent on the battleship Pennsylvania. He was in charge of the Marine detachment and also served in fire direction control department of the ships main battery of 14"guns. Part of his duties was to go ashore and do bombardment survey damage assessment.

In between WW2 and Korea his duties were that of a staff officer.

During Korea he was in the clandestine service.

After Korea with out direct ground combat command experience his career opportunities being limited he separated from service.

During Viet-Nam he volunteered for service but his application was deferred.

NG VI
December 15, 2011, 03:37 PM
light weight JHPs in .357, .38+P, and 9mm claiming to expand to the diameter of a .45 hardball and thus deliver the same or better stopping power.

9mm JHPs expand well beyond .45 FMJ diameters. They aren't 'as effective' as .45 FMJ, they are significantly better than it is.

Prosser
December 15, 2011, 03:43 PM
Using Lee Jurras is I'm not altogether the right person to justify the existence and use of hollowpoint ammunition:

As for Lee Jurras on self-defense, his acutal opinion might surprise you: It's a bit of a long read, but Lee Jurras is a great writer:
"Since I've got your ear, I do have a question for you.

In another forum, these guys like their loads to go about 14" in gelatin(talking about 45 acp) and stop, expanded.
Now, according to JRH, and myself;-), I would much rather have a heavier projectile, like a 230 grain hollow point,
GD, at 1100 fps(My minimum for self-defense, or, I even like the old Detonics 200 grain flying ashtray at 1200 fps, but, I've heard the new 200 grain bullets aren't as well designed as the 230's, or for that matter, the 185's). My theory is I want that bullet to expand, and continue on it's way, not slowing at all, or very little, through the entire target, for maximum wounding effect. I believe that a high velocity, expanding bullet, that penetrates
it's entire target, maintaining more speed, transfers more kenetic energy to the target, with more surface area due to the heavier, larger, bullet, and the maintained velocity.

This same theory has been best observed using the 458 win magnum on large cats, like lions. The Africa guys swear that the 500 grain bullets, soft points, at lower velocity then the 400-450 grain bullets, at higher velocity, just hit the animal harder, despite being under fackler's mysto 2100 fps(also the target velocity for the old Nitro Express rounds, maybe those old brits
aren't so dumb, afterall). Even though the 400 grain bullets can be put out at 2400 fps, they just don't have the same visible affect that the 500 grain bullets do on lion.

Since I feel almost ALL handguns are not consistent stoppers on man-size targets(vs. my 375 H&H with 270 grain soft points at 2800 fps;-) I think a large, fast moving, expanding bullet is superior to the lighter, slower bullets, that open up, and stop at 14 inches in gelatin. Your thoughts?

P

"P, you keep their heads down with the 45 ACP, and I'll sneak around and hit them with a REAL gun(45 Colt/Linebaugh)"

P, you got my ear, but I'm not sure I can answer in a brief e-mail...here goes... Remeber, these are my HO based on experience, as I am still working on my Doctorate in Ballistics Engineering...If fact having trouble finding a school that offers it. To my knowledge the U. of Berlin was the last..Think they closed the doors in '45....Oh well, I think todays serious junior Ballistics engineer should Major in Chem Eng,with a dual major in Mechanical, and a minor in Wound Ballistics from one of the Major Un's after he got his MD...There are some sharp dudes out there with some great specialists...But I think you have to compile a Blue Ribbon committe to get all the answers. Kinda reminds me years ago we bought a lot of brass from Federal Ctg. If we had a problem with incoming QC, I'd have to go to the factory, and could not talk to an individual...The Pres, would call a meeting and each dept head would be present. As I would ask a question, he would refer to each dept head for the answer....Maybe something as simple as case hardness gradient...Personally I thought it was BS... But you have to remember each of these guys was a specialist in his field.. Combined, they couldn't pull the trigger and hit a target, but combined they could make a product that you could hit the target with....A reporter once asked Werner Von Braun what it was like in layman language to land a man on the moon? he replied after a moments thought...." riding a merry-go-round, shooting a BB gun and hitting a BumbleBee @ a 100 yds"...see how many people NASA has ....Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to put myself in class with these guys, just explainning what happens when guys think one bullet, one load, one caliber should do it all under all circumstances... Well hell I've rattled on here and haven't even started to answer your question....digest this and I'll get back this evening and try to answer your original question...Have to get some work done right now....ATB Lee

P & S; you guys are making my head swim also...Yes I can relate story after story of failures and successes with both high velocity and heavy slow moving bullets..As I mentioned in previous posts; " its a never ending debate , that has no real endind 'cause both have there place....On my first trip to Africa I took a 458 Browning and a SuperBlackHawk 44 Mag. 20 Rds of 500gr. SP and 20 rds of 500 Solids plus 100 rds of 180 gr. JSP for the 44 Mag... When my Pro Hunter saw the 500gr, Soft Points for the 458 he said, "what are you going to do with those", told him I thought probably Lion...He said, "you been reading too much Jack O'Conner"...then he said what are you going to do if a Cape Buff charges without notice of we come up on an Elephant? He said "we only use solids ", solids will kill a Lion OK, but you don't want to get caught with SP's in the magazine when you need solids...Think about it....Well I said I'll trade you these 20 SP's for 20 Solids, he said NO we'll sell you 20 solids, take the SP's home and shoot them at Deer or something....The Point being that your favorite manstopping load might not cut the mustard if it has to go thru a car door, glass, brush or some body armor. I've seen guys load their revolvers with three different loads so as to be prepared for all circumstances, and they actually believed that these events should follow in a orchestrated manner????The 14" of geletin is fine for lab analylsis and a theoretical situation, someone has to explain to the widow why that theory didn't hold water after the fact: now maybe thats a little rash, but it has happened...You say you feel ALL handguns are not consistent stoppers on man sized targets"...I SAY if the caliber starts with a 4, and weighs at least 250 grs, moving at least 950 fps. IT WILL be consistent if properly placed...Thats the big secret. I also believe if it starts with a 3 and weighs 110 grs, traveling at least 1350 fps, it can be a consistent stopper also....provided its properly placed...Now before I hear the onslaught of disbelief....remember the little tail about the solids and the SP's I mentioned....Use the right equipment...Guys usually know the general senario they will be facing...The NYC detective 's will probably differ from The Montana Hiway Patrolman, just as the guy going after Grizz with his favorite 44 or 45, or 475 and 500 will differ from the Eastern Whitetail hunter...Now this might not answer all your questions P BUT...I don't believe there is a pat answer...I personally have tried to choose the equipment for the job...And or offered the Individaul a choice. I took my choice, design, and finished product at tested it in a good portion of the world under a variety of circumstances....My choice today for Grizz or Moose in Alaska, My 375 Howdah or my 475 Linebaugh...All lesser game my Ruger 44 Mag SuperBlackhawk.Jurras 180 gr. JSP.... Personal defense My 70 Series 1911.or 4" 25-5....All-around one gun...Probably 44 Superblackhawk....But who wants just one gun.....If I could only own one, I'd probably have to say my Linebaugh 475, could load in down for squirrel or up for bear....All around bullet design Keith style SWC....Hope I haven't confused the issue...For those of you that might mistake my trivia for just an old man...thats what worked and continues to work for me....Onward and upward...the Curmudgeon"

Lee matched his BULLET to his target. Situation requiring less penetration, he used the 180 grain soft point, or even HP's for varmits, going nearly 1900 fps. For bigger, more dangerous game, he would use silhouette 180 grain bullets, pretty much truncated cone bullet designs, that didn't expand, but, went to the same point of aim, and, thanks to velocity, penetrated very well.

Prosser
December 15, 2011, 03:46 PM
Double tap please delete.

S.B.
December 15, 2011, 04:45 PM
Things seem to have gone south here. Bullets expanding tanslates to tissue damage while translates into produce over penetration. Do you really need a defence bullet to go through your target and then into a childs bedroom? Doesn't it?
That's why so many so called expert recommend shotguns for defense, isn't it?
I see a lot of Gun Store commandoism here.
Steve

Prosser
December 15, 2011, 04:58 PM
Steve:
So, I post one of the owners of an ammunition company's view on self-defense, a guy that's been in the business for nearly 60 years, and he says

"" its a never ending debate , that has no real endind 'cause both have there place."

Also:
".The Point being that your favorite manstopping load might not cut the mustard if it has to go thru a car door, glass, brush or some body armor. I've seen guys load their revolvers with three different loads so as to be prepared for all circumstances, and they actually believed that these events should follow in a orchestrated manner????The 14" of geletin is fine for lab analylsis and a theoretical situation, someone has to explain to the widow why that theory didn't hold water after the fact: now maybe thats a little rash, but it has happened...You say you feel ALL handguns are not consistent stoppers on man sized targets"...I SAY if the caliber starts with a 4, and weighs at least 250 grs, moving at least 950 fps. IT WILL be consistent if properly placed...Thats the big secret. I also believe if it starts with a 3 and weighs 110 grs, traveling at least 1350 fps, it can be a consistent stopper also....provided its properly placed...Now before I hear the onslaught of disbelief....remember the little tail about the solids and the SP's I mentioned....Use the right equipment...Guys usually know the general senario they will be facing...The NYC detective 's will probably differ from The Montana Hiway Patrolman, just as the guy going after Grizz with his favorite 44 or 45, or 475 and 500 will differ from the Eastern Whitetail hunter...Now this might not answer all your questions P BUT...I don't believe there is a pat answer.."

So, I think I'll go with his observations and experience, if you don't mind.

Japle
December 15, 2011, 05:44 PM
I no longer waste my money on the expensive hollow points that younger shooters seem to be impressed with. Also, feeding may be questionable with some hollow points.

"Younger shooters"? I'm about to turn 66 and have been shooting .45s since 1969. I wouldn't carry FMJ unless I was required to by law or regulation.

When your life's on the line, using the least effective ammo available makes no sense at all.

45crittergitter
December 21, 2011, 05:06 PM
Putting aside for the moment the tangential discussion of "factory plugged" HPs vs. conventional HPs, the arguments made here in favor of FMJs over JHPs for defensive use seem to mostly filter down to only two:

1) Feed/function reliability enhancement

2) JHPs may plug up or otherwise not expand


It seems to me that argument #1 may be a gun problem, not a bullet problem.

It seems to me that argument #2 boils down to "I prefer an FMJ over a JHP, because the JHP may plug up/fail to expand and act like an FMJ."

Prosser
December 21, 2011, 05:09 PM
The beauty of a HP is it doesn't act like a Round nose bullet. It acts like a truncated cone, which tends to maintain it's path better, and straighter then round nose bullets do.

I wish Truncated cones were more popular in .45 ACP, and cheap.

JRH6856
December 21, 2011, 05:26 PM
I wish Truncated cones were more popular in .45 ACP, and cheap.

So do I.

fastbolt
December 21, 2011, 05:26 PM
Well, since the last time I posted in this thread topic I've fired several hundred hollowpoint rounds through a couple of my 1911's, using magazines which have been inspected and have demonstrated themselves to feed & function well in my guns.

Since I was only using them for range guns when working ranges, and haven't been carrying them lately, I occasionally left one or the other of them dirty from one range to the next. A couple of times I realized I couldn't remember when I'd last cleaned one of them, so I just wiped off the rails, ran a patch or bore snake through the barrel, and then lubed them. (I'd obviously have cleaned them immediately after shooting them if I'd been carrying them between range sessions. ;) )

They still seem to run well with my assorted duty-type hollowpoints ... so, I still have no plans to use my remaining amount of new factory 'ball loads, even for range use, but especially not for dedicated carry purpose.

Maybe if I was shooting an older 1911, Star PD or an early 220 which was fussy about hollowpoints (but luckily for me, even my Star PD of many years ago fed & fired the hollowpoints of that time with aplomb ;) ).

Different strokes. :)

Nushif
December 21, 2011, 05:59 PM
I thought wikipedia was a site where anyone could contribute their personal opinions(after registering) whether true or not???

Not entirely true, but this is a pretty common misconception. There is a lot of editing involved, and oftentimes you will find the little blue tags "citation needed" or "source" which mean that there is no citation yet or conversely that this is the source.
I really do wish more people got informed about the wiki idea, because ultimately the format is more accurate than some guy sitting down and writing the meaning of words down, as he thinks they are ... which is basically the first dictionary.

JTQ
December 22, 2011, 12:25 AM
I wish Truncated cones were more popular in .45 ACP, and cheap.
So do I.

How about Speer Lawman, 200gr at 1080ft/sec, 518ft/lbs, at $31.99 for a box of 50.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/712004/speer-lawman-ammunition-45-acp-200-grain-total-metal-jacket-box-of-50

JRH6856
December 22, 2011, 01:31 AM
I have a hard time thinking of $32 a box as cheap when I'm buying 230gr FMJ RN for little more than half that.

PabloJ
December 22, 2011, 02:10 AM
With quality ammo prices today I'm glad I only need to shoot couple times a year to keep up my skills. I suspect about year from now shelves will be devoid of fodder except for .40S&W and .44Mag.

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 02:50 AM
I'd rather have those truncated cones in my 1911 then ball ammo.

I still carry 45 Super 230 grain HPS, anyway, but, in a few other mags I have ball.

BeerSleeper
December 22, 2011, 08:59 AM
TC has the drawback of reduced feed reliability, same as JHP, without the advantage of the expanding round.

TC is great for targets, punches holes in paper almost as neat as SWC, but for defensive purposes, giving up a small % of feed reliability would be a trade off if it meant gaining a more effective expanding round, but that's not what happens here. The cost is less reliable feeding, the gain is nothing. That's not a tradeoff, that's a straight downgrade.

1911Tuner
December 22, 2011, 10:37 AM
Speaking only for myself, I've never had a problem with solid, truncated cone bullets...including in original, unaltered USGI pistols. The advantage of the TC 230-grain bullet is that at a given velocity, it penetrates a bit further than hardball. If memory serves me...but it's been 25 years ago...they penetrated about 4 inches deeper in ballistic gelatin at 850 fps mv.

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 02:14 PM
Not only deeper, but straighter. Also, the original round Browning came up with
was 200 grains, 950 fps. I like the idea of a non-expanding truncated cone, but using the lighter weight to get higher velocity, like 1100-1200 fps.

JTQ
December 22, 2011, 03:14 PM
MicroTecniqs wrote,
I have a hard time thinking of $32 a box as cheap when I'm buying 230gr FMJ RN for little more than half that.
I suppose it is all a matter of perspective, though I applaud you for finding 230gr FMJ for under $20 per box of 50.

At Midway, they sell 230gr Gold Dot hollow points for $1.15 per round, on sale. The regular price is $1.37 per round.

Speer Lawman 230gr FM goes for .68 per round.

With the Speer Lawman 200gr truncated cone at .64 per round, that is a reasonable bargain, making it cheaper than their ball round and about half the cost of their hollow point round.

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 03:22 PM
I like this one:
Look at the 230 grain TCBB
http://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html


This bullet is a full caliber, much like the G&S solids, but cast:
420 Grain Linebaugh
http://www.pennbullets.com/475/475-caliber.html

Here's a full caliber .45, designed for hunting:

270 Grain Thunderhead BB

http://www.pennbullets.com/45/45-caliber.html

JRH6856
December 22, 2011, 04:23 PM
I see a 200gr TCPB and a 230gr TCBB, but no 200gr TCBB. I used to load a 215gr TCBB cast by a local guy but he quit casting them years ago.

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 04:28 PM
Sorry, my mistake. It's a 230.

JRH6856
December 22, 2011, 04:40 PM
With the Speer Lawman 200gr truncated cone at .64 per round, that is a reasonable bargain, making it cheaper than their ball round and about half the cost of their hollow point round.I didn't say it wasn't a good price. It is. Just not one I would consider cheap.;)

I was in Wal-Mart a couple of weeks ago and saw Federal 230gr FMJ for 17.99. I bought all they had on the shelf.

JRH6856
December 22, 2011, 05:10 PM
Prosser, both the 200grTCPB and 230grTCBB from Penn look like good bullets at a good price. I'll probably start reloading again soon and will keep them in mind. Thanks.

llwsgn
December 23, 2011, 12:14 AM
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D 8 of em + :D:D:D:D:D:D:D more.

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