How Many Carry a 1911 with FMJ Ammo?


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SharpsDressedMan
November 17, 2011, 09:54 PM
I sometimes use JHP's, but for the most part, I am content to pack my .45's with regular FMJ ammo. I don't expect miracle expansion with JHP's at standard velocities, so FMJ's and their reliability and superior pentration is a good enough choice, in my opinion. Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?

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rich642z
November 17, 2011, 10:26 PM
I use fmj ammo in both of my 1913 and 1925 Colts because they hate jhps.

Masterartisan
November 17, 2011, 10:38 PM
I use FMJ in my Kimber Pro Carry II...flawless operation...why tempt fate?

ratt_finkel
November 17, 2011, 10:41 PM
How much penetration are you looking for? Even lack luster hollow points expand quite nicely in this size. It's not a .22 ;)

fal762x51
November 17, 2011, 11:36 PM
I carry 230g FMJ exclusively in any 1911 used for defense.

Sergei Mosin
November 18, 2011, 12:16 AM
My 1911 would not feed JHPs reliably out of the box, so I carry ball. One of these days I might see if it's sufficiently broken in to feed them now, but if it doesn't I'm not going to be overly concerned about it.

daehawc
November 18, 2011, 05:09 AM
Same here, I normally carry standard FMJ for a couple reasons.

I know it feeds flawlessly as I've fired thousands upon thousands of FMJ through my 1911s. I've only shot a few boxes worth of the JHP due to its price.

I like the penetration of the FMJ, its proven itself in combat for a century.

Its what I practice with so I'm used to the recoil and its POI from my guns.

I figure a couple .45 ACP hardballs should stop the threat or I should have gotten a rifle.

cfullgraf
November 18, 2011, 07:43 AM
Most of my M1911s shoot JHPs that are shaped like 230 RN. Not so well with other shaped bullets. But, I have not bothered to try any JHPs in my newer M1911s.

Even so, I feel 230 FMJs are more than adequate for the job. So, I only reload 230 FMJs or 230 plated RM bullets. So, if I use a M1911 for self defense, the ammunition in the gun is identical to what i practice with.

USSR
November 18, 2011, 07:46 AM
Cheap, and very effective.

Don

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTz6VtBo1AY70LOcCL9r4Z0hIJhcQ2zxx6FnG1Ux9Twj_KGZUVu

micromontenegro
November 18, 2011, 08:11 AM
I also carry 230 gr ball. In fact, I carry .45 ACP just to be able to load it with FMJ and still feel protected. Wouldn't do it with a lesser caliber.

bikerdoc
November 18, 2011, 08:37 AM
FMJ only here.

2wheels
November 18, 2011, 08:55 AM
I prefer to carry JHPs but I've been known to run with FMJs, if I don't have any of the JHPs I know run reliably in my 1911s on hand I have zero problem loading up a .45 with FMJs.

EMC45
November 18, 2011, 09:04 AM
I carry 230gr. Ball FMJ. They work so why not?

Goblin
November 18, 2011, 09:19 AM
First 2 rds are FMJ in my bedside .45.

The Bushmaster
November 18, 2011, 09:42 AM
I carry a Kimber UCC II and have had no problems with 185 grain HP/XTP...

ElrodCod
November 18, 2011, 09:44 AM
I don't carry a 1911 anymore but when I did it was usually loaded with hollowpoints. It was carried with hardball on rare occasions when, for one reason or another, hollopoints couldn't be used. I never felt that I was inadequately armed.

doorman
November 18, 2011, 09:56 AM
I carry my Springfield Loaded 1911a1 with whatever I have handy. I reload both FMJ and JHP. The 1911 platform was originally designed for the ball ammo and served the armed forces for many years.

Onmilo
November 18, 2011, 10:18 AM
http://www.fototime.com/268A032C6F51D23/standard.jpg

AllisonDT
November 18, 2011, 01:19 PM
I carry 230gr. Ball FMJ. They work so why not?

What do you mean, "they work?"

While no FMJ is going to ever expand, a JHP is never going to get smaller than .45" and will almost always expand some. With a decent JHP, it will almost always expand a lot. Why handicap yourself on purpose?

If my gun didn't reliably cycle a quality JHP, it sure wouldn't be my carry gun.

KodiakBeer
November 18, 2011, 01:34 PM
If my gun didn't reliably cycle a quality JHP, it sure wouldn't be my carry gun.

+1

I won't go into it here, but it's surprisingly easy to "break the lip" of even an old GI pistol so that it feeds hollowpoints, so why would anyone carry a .45 with FMJ's?

SharpsDressedMan
November 18, 2011, 02:17 PM
I should have stated that with my guns, it's not so much that they won't feed hollowpoints (they all do, as far as I know), it is just that I feel the .45 is effective enough with FMJ's that I don't HAVE to use JHP's. As I see, some of you feel the same way.

AethelstanAegen
November 18, 2011, 03:20 PM
I also noly use FMJs in my 1911. I know they'll function flawlessly in my gun and they will certainly stop a BG if I'm even halfway doing my part. I do carry HPs in my other sometimes carry gun, a Springfield XD 45, but that's because the XD seems to love the 185gr HPs and is very consistant with each shot.

Sniper X
November 18, 2011, 03:24 PM
first two rounds in every carry mag is 230gr JHP +P+, the rest are all FMJ Match.

Japle
November 18, 2011, 03:51 PM
When I carry a .45, whether it's a 1911 or an XD, it's loaded with CorBon JHPs. There are other good JHP loads on the market, but I happen to have CorBon, so I use it.

If I had a .45 that would only feed FMJs I wouldn't carry it.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 18, 2011, 03:57 PM
First 2 rds are FMJ in my bedside .45.

Uh, why?

I should have stated that with my guns, it's not so much that they won't feed hollowpoints (they all do, as far as I know), it is just that I feel the .45 is effective enough with FMJ's that I don't HAVE to use JHP's. As I see, some of you feel the same way.

No offense but that is just laziness, JHPs expand quiet nicely and perform better on target than FMJ. Why would you limit yourself if the round functions in your carry gun? That doesn't make sense.

fal762x51
November 18, 2011, 04:26 PM
No offense but that is just laziness, JHPs expand quiet nicely and perform better on target than FMJ. Why would you limit yourself if the round functions in your carry gun? That doesn't make sense.

Carrying FMJ eliminates one more potential problem. No matter how reliable your 1911 is with JHP, it will probably be even more reliable with FMJ. Given the nature of Murphy's law, we can expect that if a gun is going to fail with JHP, it will do so at the moment you need it most.

I have fired over 300 consecutive rounds of JHP out of my 1911 without so much as a hiccup. It would probably be fine to use JHP in that gun. But I am still going to carry FMJ, because I am obsessed with reliablity over all other issues. JHPs are probably more effective on target, but for sure my FMJ's are going to be more effective than using a jammed gun as a club.

AllisonDT
November 18, 2011, 04:38 PM
I should have stated that with my guns, it's not so much that they won't feed hollowpoints (they all do, as far as I know), it is just that I feel the .45 is effective enough with FMJ's that I don't HAVE to use JHP's. As I see, some of you feel the same way.


You can't mean that. Think this through.

With that line of thinking, you may as well call your life insurance company and tell them to go ahead and lower your payout by $50,000 while still keeping your monthly premium the same amount.

Sounds plain old goofy, doesn't it?

AllisonDT
November 18, 2011, 04:44 PM
Carrying FMJ eliminates one more potential problem.

Just carry a knife then.....:rolleyes:

Pyro
November 18, 2011, 05:00 PM
FMJ...JHP...a bullet is a bullet.
Just like any other caliber, it's all about shot placement if you want to put em' down real quick. I have no problem carrying ball ammo in a .45. Now if it was a .357 sig I'd probably opt for a JHP seeing how fast those rounds can zip through things.

SharpsDressedMan
November 18, 2011, 05:29 PM
Expanding bullets at 850fps are highly overrated, with actual shooting results being close to their FMJ counterparts. They are NOT the same as expanding bullets at 1200fps, or 2100fps. Under the speed of sound, the vaunted "hydrostatic shock" that creates all those marvelous "temporary" cavities, etc, isn't the result of slow moving bullets, and as someone mentioned above, a bullet is a bullet. If you really think the .45 JHP is going to give you marked performance, so be it. I just don't believe that slow bullets deliver uniform or dramatic results. For .357's. or 9mm's, etc, the JHP is needed, and works better at their higher velocities. We tend to lump all JHP's into that higher performance category, but they need the velocity to make them work that well. And against the slight margin of expansion at the slower velocity, the advantage of the reliability of the FMJ might make the FMJ more attractive, as it apparently does to us few who routinely use them that way.

MarshallDodge
November 18, 2011, 05:38 PM
Would some of you that say FMJ is just as good as JHP please show some evidence supporting this.

mljdeckard
November 18, 2011, 05:42 PM
Keep in mind, .45 JHP ammo is specifically designed to perform at the appropriate velocity. I have more confidence in my 230 gr HSTs to perform as expected than any other defensive round.

Having said that, if for some reason I was carrying ball rounds and had to shoot defensively, I wouldn't be wringing my brain because I was caught with mere FMJ ammo. I think that the real world difference in effect between handgun rounds of any type is limited. Some people seem to think that if you shoot 9mm FMJ, the bad guy won't even feel it, and you are going to die, but if you have .45 JHP, then the bad guy will explode when you hit him. they are all handgun rounds and they all suck. They just suck in slightly different degrees. Hollow points help, but I think that nine times out of ten, two or three good hits are going to have the exact same effect, anything from 9mm FMJ to .45

The .45 FMJ/1911 combination has probably saved more soldiers' lives than any other combination. I am not concerned by overpenetration. I want all of the penetration I can get regardless of what I carry.

jackpinesavages
November 18, 2011, 05:44 PM
The Caspian and STI will eat anything I put in the mags. The Para is strictly FMJs. No, it doesn't bother me to run just FMJs-head shots are still explosive. :D

kgpcr
November 18, 2011, 07:20 PM
I have a springer loaded double stack that is no longer made. I carry +P 210grn HP ammo and i like it

The Lone Haranguer
November 18, 2011, 07:28 PM
Even when it is a .45 to start with, it is nice to at least have the option of expanding, to make an even bigger hole. Why not take all the advantages you can get? And there is no reason, in a gun of recent manufacture, to not feed JHPs (within reason). In fact, 1911Tuner has written of some old (WWII era) 1911s that do feed JHPs.

Japle
November 18, 2011, 07:28 PM
Posted by Pyro:
FMJ...JHP...a bullet is a bullet.
Just like any other caliber, it's all about shot placement if you want to put em' down real quick.

Sure, no question. A bullet that expands to 0.8” is the same as a bullet that doesn’t expand at all. Gee, I though everyone knew that!

And of course, placing your shots in a gunfight with a violent felon who’s moving unpredictably is just as easy as placing them on a paper target that’s tacked up on a target frame at a known distance.

Glad you’ve explained that. I was worried!

JTQ
November 18, 2011, 08:09 PM
I do sometimes.

Do I believe hollow point ammo is more effective than ball? Yes. Is it a huge difference? I don't know.

However, sitting in your concealed carry class is a guy with a .380, another with a 5 shot .38 Special, another guy with a 9x18 Makarov. Hey, just about anything you have in your .45ACP 1911 is better than what they are carrying. Then of course you have to consider the other 90% (or 99% or whatever the number is) of the population that doesn't have a weapon.

When you consider all that, maybe carrying ball ammo in your .45ACP 1911 doesn't seem so stupid, goofy, or lazy, or whatever term we may want to use for our fellow THR members that choose to use FMJ ammo.

proven
November 18, 2011, 08:56 PM
my 1911 has eaten anything i've ever fed it reliably. i typically carry a mag of jhp, and a mag of ball for a reload. i have on occasion carried only ball, and never felt uneasy about it.

i never like it when a buddy uses this argument when i question one of his choices, but it applies here. "if you think that it's 'lazy' to carry fmj in a 1911, let me send one your way at 15 yds, and see what you think then.";)

Ken Rainey
November 18, 2011, 09:20 PM
Yep SharpsDressedMan, I agree with you...

I once was in search of the almighty "super" hollowpoint for whatever caliber pistol I had and would have no less than what was supposedly the "best"...I was (almost) convinced that my super HP would enter the bad guy expand fully and stop just short of exiting his other side leaving a path of destruction thru him that would look like an explosion had occurred in the cavity...but, after clearing my head of the advertisements (that are designed to convince people to buy that "best" bullet) and looking at the facts of what I already knew from mine as well as other's actual experiences and doing some of my own testing to boot, I too am satisfied to use 230 FMJ in my .45 auto...

...and, I don't even feel defenseless before my enemies with FMJ or a LSWC in other calibers - having learned (remembered) that what makes the difference with a handgun round is placement with adequate penetration - that is it my friends - placement with adequate penetration - not whether or not the bullet expands but where it goes...for you see, it's the presence of the bullet in a location of the body that it's not suppose to be in and/or the hole it made in getting there or thru there that will determine it's effectiveness in stopping the threat...the bigger the bullet, the better, but it's location is the deciding factor and more bullets increase that effectiveness...

Knowing what's behind your target as to whether or not you should shoot or from what angle is what takes care of the over penetration worries as much as can be done no matter what type ammunition is used...

Don't get me wrong, expansion of handgun rounds is great, IF it happens at all, as long as the penetration is still adequate. Most of the makers speed them up compared to the FMJ versions, I'm sure this is to aid in expansion...but, especially with a .45, the faster it goes, the harder it kicks...and, if none or little expansion occurs, the further it could over penetrate - remember, no ammunition manufacturer guarantees the expansion (or effectiveness) of their HP handgun bullets - the ads just want you to believe it's guaranteed. Plus, extra recoil and blast are things I don't want. One thing that the premium LE ammo does have is the flash suppressed powders which are nice in low light in the calibers that benefit from them such as 9mm and .40 S&W or from short barrels...something not "needed" as much in the standard low pressure .45 230 FMJ from a 5 inch barrel...or 158s in .38 specials with 4 inch barrels...but every little bit helps...

Using a 230 FMJ at standard speed in a 5 inch or less pistol is not that much of an overly penetrating round with a solid torso (not gut, arm or any other fleshy part) hit...using less than 5 inches of barrel will slow it down even more and also lessen the penetration. One of the reasons I specifically chose the heavy 230 FMJ for my officer's sized pistol was in the hope it would penetrate enough...where the use of a lightweight hollowpoint, especially if it expanded, would only lessen it's penetration - maybe to the point of being inadequate....plus the short stroker's need all the help they can get in the reliability department anyway....and there again, if using a lightweight hollowpoint, especially in a +P load, would deliver more blast and recoil to the user with only the hope of getting expansion that may work against you...

Also note that a lot of the .45 auto pistol makers recommend using standard 230 FMJ ammunition for reliability...ahh yes, reliability - what we need above all else in our chosen defensive handguns...

Using the same ammo for carry that you use for practice and training is another benefit...

And remember that you can never be sure of exactly what your bullet will have to travel thru to get to that place that will be of benefit to you in stopping the threat as soon as possible...in a .45 auto, a 230 FMJ is a pretty good all around bullet to use for "whatever" may come into it's path...

But hey, remember, these are just handgun bullets...

Sigh, I've gotten long winded again...sorry...just sharing the experiences on the road I traveled looking for the "best" handgun bullets...as always YMMV ! :)

SharpsDressedMan
November 18, 2011, 10:02 PM
Do you guys that have such faith in the .45 HP's really think they are that much more effective? How far do they get in a body before they START to expand? How far before they are .50 cal, or .60? Do you have any evidence that bad guys fall over dead immediately upon being hit by a JHP and NOT with an FMJ? We have some coroners and ER docs on this forum, and I'll bet their take on this will be different than the general concensus. I can neither prove the similar or disimilar effectiveness of either, as that data is just too subjective to sort out with my limited resouces. I don't have a lab, or lots of data to even go though. Anyone got ANYTHING besides a gut feeling here to share with us? I just am not buying into the "greatest thing since apple pie" theory about .45 JHP's at subsonic velocities.............

Onmilo
November 18, 2011, 10:13 PM
'Why on earth would anyone carry FMJ?'
Because the stuff works way more often than it fails.
Everybody that is under the impression they are invincible because they have XYZombie hollowpoints stuffed in their pistola is kidding only themselves.

sugarmaker
November 18, 2011, 10:26 PM
I don't carry, but if I did (I live in VT so I can if I choose...) the series 70 gold cup NM will be loaded with 230 ball.

Pyro
November 18, 2011, 11:54 PM
Sure, no question. A bullet that expands to 0.8” is the same as a bullet that doesn’t expand at all. Gee, I though everyone knew that!

And of course, placing your shots in a gunfight with a violent felon who’s moving unpredictably is just as easy as placing them on a paper target that’s tacked up on a target frame at a known distance.

Glad you’ve explained that. I was worried!
I like stating the obvious and I'm glad someone took me so literally.
There are quite a few differences between a .45 JHP and a .45 FMJ, yes. But, they will both do their job fine...especially in this caliber.
Shot placement means hitting center mass instead of shooting wildly in utter amazement that your target doesn't want to get shot.

HKGuns
November 19, 2011, 12:22 AM
I carry both, depending on what I happen to have on hand. I never feel under armed with either round. FMJ is far better than carrying a knife or not carrying. Either will get the job done. In fact, I will even carry FMJ 9mm. I don't get obsessive about the ammo I use as I know the reality of me having to ever use it is almost next to zero. However, should the need arise my shot placement should be such that either round will suffice to eliminate the threat.

gc70
November 19, 2011, 07:12 AM
Since shot placement is the most critical element in stopping a threat and most of the action in a real gunfight would be driven by muscle memory, I carry what I practice with.

mavracer
November 19, 2011, 08:29 AM
Expanding bullets at 850fps are highly overrated, with actual shooting results being close to their FMJ counterparts.
maybe 25 or 30 years ago. Todays HST, Golddots and Ranger T series all expand consistantly at 800fps.
Do you guys that have such faith in the .45 HP's really think they are that much more effective?
Yes
How far do they get in a body before they START to expand?
High speed video show they start to open almost immediatly.
How far before they are .50 cal, or .60?
less than 2"
Do you have any evidence that bad guys fall over dead immediately upon being hit by a JHP and NOT with an FMJ?
I've shot a fair amount of game in my lifetime and can tell you.
1. More damage usually works faster to anchor game.
2. FMJ ball ammo does less damage than SWC or Hollow Points.
3. Humans are animals.

Now I wouldn't have a huge problem with carrying ball ammo in my gun, if I absolutely had to as shot placement is still the most important factor, but given that I don't have any compelling reason to carry a less effective round there's going to be hollow points in my SD guns.

jahwarrior
November 19, 2011, 09:34 AM
JHPs in the spring and summer, FMJs in the fall and winter. it gets cold here in PA, and people tend to bundle up, even the bad guys. i don't have to worry about my FMJs getting clogged up with fibers and cloth. my PT1911 shoots anything i feed it, so it's not a reliability issue.

fal762x51
November 19, 2011, 09:56 AM
Now I wouldn't have a huge problem with carrying ball ammo in my gun, if I absolutely had to as shot placement is still the most important factor, but given that I don't have any compelling reason to carry a less effective round there's going to be hollow points in my SD guns.

Everything is a trade off. You are trading presumed improved reliability of the FMJ for presumed improved terminal effectiveness of the JHP. There is nothing wrong with that trade, so long as you are aware of the trade off.

Loosedhorse
November 19, 2011, 10:08 AM
Not me. .45 ball might be a good round, but a .45 JHP or copper HP is better, IMHO.i don't have to worry about my FMJs getting clogged up with fibers and cloth.If an HP gets clogged, it will behave more like FMJ. Not sure I see the point of: "IF people bundle up, my HP might act like FMJ, so, to avoid that, I'll load FMJ."

jackpinesavages
November 19, 2011, 10:13 AM
"Since shot placement is the most critical element in stopping a threat and most of the action in a real gunfight would be driven by muscle memory, I carry what I practice with."


This.

I cannot afford to reload or shoot factory JHPs in my practice @ 100-400 rds per month. I NEED to train with what I am carrying and that's 230 gr. FMJ. YMMV.

If you can afford to EFFECTIVELY train on a regular basis with FMJs, GREAT! Wish I could, but I cannot. Even if I could I still don't believe I would, as (a) my training base is FMJs for .45s, and (b) the FTF scenarios are nearly eliminated.

TexasRifleman
November 19, 2011, 10:17 AM
Seems that having a gun, being able to trust the guns reliability, and being able to hit with the gun is 99+% of the problem.

Ammo type then is maybe 1% of the problem?

If I had a gun that I would carry, could trust to be reliable, and shoot with very well, and all this happened to be with FMJ then I don't think I'd give any more thought to it.

mavracer
November 19, 2011, 10:29 AM
Everything is a trade off. You are trading presumed improved reliability of the FMJ for presumed improved terminal effectiveness of the JHP. There is nothing wrong with that trade, so long as you are aware of the trade off.
yes but even given that the JHPs jam once ever 100 rounds and only expand 90% that's 90% more effective against a 1% chance of failure. so concidering some of my carry guns have digested 1000s of rounds of JHPs without fail I'm more than ok with any percieved tradeoff

ApacheCoTodd
November 19, 2011, 10:39 AM
My open carry is a 1911 that the MEUSOC armorer built as one of their guns and I asked him to build it for any particular JHP... when he got done laughing at me we went for FMJ/Ball. I get the JHP argument and fully support it in ALL our revolvers (where the hole isn't filled with a shot round "one in the face - change his pace!") but figure... why risk it in the 1911 given "interaction" distances.

David E
November 19, 2011, 11:01 AM
we went for FMJ/Ball. I get the JHP argument....(but) why risk it in the 1911 given "interaction" distances.

Because it's not hard, difficult or surprising to have a 1911 be 100% reliable with a JHP. (or at least be as reliable as it is with FMJ)

Maybe you need a new armorer/gunsmith....

Japle
November 19, 2011, 11:14 AM
Posted by David E:
Because it's not hard, difficult or surprising to have a 1911 be 100% reliable with a JHP. (or at least be as reliable as it is with FMJ)

^ This.

USSR
November 19, 2011, 12:06 PM
...expansion of handgun rounds is great, IF it happens at all, as long as the penetration is still adequate.

That's why I cast my HP's. I can control both expansion and penetration by varying the alloy I use. Buy store bought bullets and it's one size fits all.

Don

SharpsDressedMan
November 19, 2011, 12:43 PM
You know what I REALLY like about jacketed hollow points? In some of my guns, the premium bullets are actually more accurate than the bulk FMJ's. Now THERE is a reason for even ME to like JHP's. However, every now and then, something goes wrong with weapon function, like dirt, lint, fouling, weak springs in magazines, worn or damaged mags or internals, loose extrators, pushed in bullets, etc, and a round nose, FMJ might feed JUST a little better than a JHP. Anyone that wants to disregard all that and put all their faith in JHP's is fine by me. I can see we have two very distinct camps here on the subject. The points taken are interesting, but where we each place our trust in ammo or weapon performance is sure diverse.

Deputy25
November 19, 2011, 01:19 PM
I work in a level one trauma center, and I've seen bullets recovered from human bodies. Hollow points appear to be 50/50, maybe less. A lot of the time, they do no more than ball ammo. YMMV, use what you have confidence in. I can tell you this, most shooting victims that are hit in the head/heart/liver/major vessels don't make it to the OR, regardless of ammo caliber or type.

Jim Watson
November 19, 2011, 01:51 PM
I think JHPs are worth having but I go with ball in 1911s.

JHPs have or should have the warning "Specifications subject to change without notice."
A gunzine article of a number of years ago noted that there had by then been five different variants of .45 Hydrashok, then the latest and greatest. Three of them were identifiable by appearance, differing in nose shape and/or seating depth. Apparently the other two variants had internal differences; maybe jacket thickness, lead hardness, or powder choice.
I'd rather not have to deal with a new box of the same brand of ammo being physically different. It might be better, but it might be worse in my gun.

Non-1911s seem more tolerant of differences in ogival hollowpoints. And I don't think they have monkeyed much with 9BP, at least not where it shows.

Old krow
November 19, 2011, 04:09 PM
Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?

It's a big bullet regardless. I'd use either in a pinch and probably wouldn't feel defenseless in the least. I normally keep some 200 grain +P JHPs loaded. I don't know that they are any more accurate than ball ammo, less accurate than handloads, but, I like the speeds that they shoot at.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 19, 2011, 04:31 PM
You know what I REALLY like about jacketed hollow points? In some of my guns, the premium bullets are actually more accurate than the bulk FMJ's. Now THERE is a reason for even ME to like JHP's. However, every now and then, something goes wrong with weapon function, like dirt, lint, fouling, weak springs in magazines, worn or damaged mags or internals, loose extrators, pushed in bullets, etc, and a round nose, FMJ might feed JUST a little better than a JHP. Anyone that wants to disregard all that and put all their faith in JHP's is fine by me. I can see we have two very distinct camps here on the subject. The points taken are interesting, but where we each place our trust in ammo or weapon performance is sure diverse.

Never heard it happening once.

SharpsDressedMan
November 19, 2011, 04:49 PM
"Never heard it happening once."
You just need to get out more! :D

USSR
November 19, 2011, 05:38 PM
...every now and then, something goes wrong with weapon function, like dirt, lint, fouling, weak springs in magazines, worn or damaged mags or internals, loose extrators, pushed in bullets, etc, and a round nose, FMJ might feed JUST a little better than a JHP

Absolutely no way of proving that one bullet "might" feed better than another bullet "might". It's just an unprovable hypothetical. The problem with some jacketed HP's is the profile. Take a look at this cast HP bullet's profile, and you will see why it feeds so well.

Don

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-NevrxelVHZxj5oR1kMn3Mas5_EPFbJSgp5etjKYzPWg9Ri0Dhl4wzD-CHA

SharpsDressedMan
November 19, 2011, 06:24 PM
I have seen some of those deficiencies listed above affect the feeding of a round into the ramp or chamber, sometimes causing the round to drop or dip during feeding, changing the angle that it feeds, and thus getting it to hang up on the lip of the HP on the bullet nose. Just enough, on just a bad feed, to hang up the round. There is just LESS to hang up on a round nose. If you don't agree, that's o.k. Maybe you've never experienced THAT type of malf.

David E
November 19, 2011, 07:37 PM
Ok, which is it?

You carry FMJ for feeding reliability or because you don't want the JHP to clog up? (in which case it'll perform like an FMJ)

Venado
November 19, 2011, 08:01 PM
I did a test recently using a hog's head. Shot it with 230grn. lrn, and with a 185 grn. xtp hollow point. I now know why I favor a light, fast hollow point over a slower, heavier bullet. First shot was with the 230 grn. lead round nose made of linotype lead. Bullet went in one eye and out the other, taking the top of the head off with it. I thought, wow, this is great. Second shot was another 230 grn. shot from front to back. Came out the back of the skull making an exit hole the size of the original bullet. I thought, ok, penetration is great. Now came the real eye-opener. Shot it with the 185 grn. xtp, and the whole head exploded with flying pig parts everywhere. It did not penetrate the whole skull, but there was no way it would not have been an instant kill. By the way, I do not believe the .45 acp needs to be a low-pressure cartridge, so these results would not be the same as a person would get with store bought ammo.

SharpsDressedMan
November 19, 2011, 08:28 PM
No reference to clogging the HP on my posts. The fouled guns, damaged mag, etc, sometimes contribute to poor bullet feed, which can hang up the lip of the HP bullet MORE than a rounded FMJ bullet.

David E
November 19, 2011, 08:47 PM
fouled guns, damaged mag, etc, sometimes contribute to poor bullet feed, which can hang up the lip of the HP bullet MORE than a rounded FMJ bullet.

I suggest cleaning your gun and checking your magazines more often....

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 19, 2011, 09:58 PM
You just need to get out more!

Sorry but I've just never heard of a case where a FMJ would feed in something lets say a Glock 21 and it wouldn't feed a JHP. It just doesn't really make sense. If you really are worried about part failures or it getting dirty. Clean and inspect your gun every time you go shooting.

SharpsDressedMan
November 19, 2011, 11:16 PM
I like my guns to work when they are dirty; just in case.................................

Prosser
November 19, 2011, 11:21 PM
SDM:

Your no dummy. Ways to a wound channel: bullet design, velocity. Why am I not on the 230 grain ball bandwagon? It was a committee trying to get something to work like the 260 grain Colt FLAT POINT, IN .45 COLT, @ 950 fps.

Remember, Browning came up with 200 grain FP's, at about 950 in the original design of the .45 ACP.

If I'm not carrying .45 ACP HP's, I'm looking at 200 grain Flat Points, at 1200 fps.
My .45 Acps are setup by Jack Huntington, and timed to shoot 45 Detonics level loads. I think Browning, later improved by Detonics, had it right.

With the added velocity of the .451 Detonics, 200 grain speer flying ashtrays @ 1200 fps, and 230 grain HPs at 1100 fps over came the problems with the .45 ACP HP's.

I'm warm and fuzzy on penetration, and, I've shot nearly 500k rounds of 200 grain speer flying ashtrays at 1200 fps. Detonics supplied evidence of their effectiveness when used by law enforcement, and, at that velocity, you get a large wound channel, even if the bullet doesn't work.

If I'm going into a really bad part of Richmond, or Oakland, where you have huge bad guys, buffalobore's 260 grain .45 ACP/ .45 Detonics/super flat points would be my friend, or, going into hog country.

I don't think much of RFN's, unless they are in a .510 Wells, and weigh 600 grains, at 2150 fps, or .458 Lott, and 500 grains at 2300 fps:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/RUGER%20510%20Max/500maxright.jpg

Heck, they are even flat pointed as much as they can..

On the otherhand, the above guns shoots .510" Caliber bullets. a 525 grain, RFN, at 1350 fps would probably get the attention of everything on the planet. Anyone want to test fire those rounds, with 60-82 ft-lbs of recoil?
I've got a bunch of 525's loaded at 1350 fps, that sit in a box while I shoot Linebaugh 'short' at 1100 fps...with lighter bullets, like 350 grains.

pinstripe
November 19, 2011, 11:26 PM
The colt 1911 was designed to use fmj hardball ammunition. this is for feeding reliability. Some shoot hollow points well, others don't. if you are confident in a particular round, then use that round, I go for reliability always, so I use fmj. works in mine flawlessly.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 20, 2011, 01:09 AM
I like my guns to work when they are dirty; just in case.................................

How dirty are you talking here? Lathered with mud, inside and out? I just took my XD-40, hand cycled a round into the chamber, riding it into battery and not a bit of hesitation with that JHP round chambering. It could go as slow as it would function dirty and still chamber. Granted it's no 1911 and I don't have one but I will test this with my brother's next time I see him, I'm assuming you carry a 1911.

The colt 1911 was designed to use fmj hardball ammunition. this is for feeding reliability. Some shoot hollow points well, others don't. if you are confident in a particular round, then use that round, I go for reliability always, so I use fmj. works in mine flawlessly.

I guess you don't realize that the design has been modified in most modern models to use JHP reliably.

ETA: Just found these two videos, 9mm FMJ and .45 ACP FMJ. If you compare the maximum expansion of the two, it actually looks like 9mm ball does more damage than .45 ACP.

9mm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSrlItrsbvs&feature=channel_video_title
.45 ACP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPjTlj1pHk

I'm even suprised by this myself.

Scipio Africanus
November 20, 2011, 01:54 AM
I carry JHP's in my 1911 and my S&W 325. The 1911 feeds them as well as it does ball and the revolver doesn't care. I prefer +P ammo in both. Ball would and has worked for a very long time, but I want every advantage that I can get. I would never disparage a fellow who did carry ball ammo.
There is definitely a place for solids in self defense, just as there is in hunting, but I think HP is a better choice overall.
And, if I was going to use a solid bullet for self defense in a 1911, it would be a JTC design; in a revolver, it would be a SWC.

No matter what, marksmanship is everything.

leadcounsel
November 20, 2011, 04:24 AM
I love these arguments.

willypete
November 20, 2011, 09:05 AM
I carry JHPs in all my carry guns because I like to stack the deck in my favor, rather than adhere to hidebound notions or justify poor feeding performance.

If it can't feed JHP, fix it or sell it, or don't use it for a carry gun. There are so many options out there that there's no excuse not to use JHP.

jackpinesavages
November 20, 2011, 10:25 AM
I love these arguments.


Aren't they great?!

PowerG
November 20, 2011, 10:33 AM
I wouldn't feel undergunned with ball ammo, but my 1911 feeds JHP reliably, so that's what I go with.

David E
November 20, 2011, 11:07 AM
I like my guns to work when they are dirty; just in case.................................

Then it's a self created artificial argument.

I clean most of my guns every 1000 rds or so, whether they need it or not.

But my defense guns.....every 100-200, depending on that range session. Ideally, I'd run 1-2 mags thru a cleaned gun to verify all is in order.

Japle
November 20, 2011, 11:12 AM
Posted by Prosser:
I'm warm and fuzzy on penetration, and, I've shot nearly 500k rounds of 200 grain speer flying ashtrays at 1200 fps.

You've shot 500,000 "flying ashtray" loads? Seriously?

Who paid for that ammo? Did you load it yourself?

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 20, 2011, 11:59 AM
Posted by Prosser:
I'm warm and fuzzy on penetration, and, I've shot nearly 500k rounds of 200 grain speer flying ashtrays at 1200 fps.

I don't believe it either.

KodiakBeer
November 20, 2011, 03:44 PM
The linked data is drawn from police shootings. They only count torso hits, ie; leg and limb and head hits are not included in the data base. They also toss multiple hits, so this includes only individuals hit and "stopped" with a single shot.

As you can see, the best HP rounds average in the low to mid 90%. The best FMJ rounds average in the low 60% - a 30% decrease in effectiveness.

If your pistol doesn't feed HP's reliably, then you have good reason to use FMJ's. But, (in my opinion), if it does feed HP's then you should use them.


http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=230

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 20, 2011, 03:50 PM
According to that, 9mm FMJ has a better chance of stopping someone than .45 FMJ. I'm really suprised by this.

That website I was looking for earlier, thanks for posting it! Just wish they listed 5.7 x 28 as I'm greatly interested in that caliber. Where exactly do they pull that date from?

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
November 20, 2011, 03:55 PM
Hornady FPD TAP 230gr +p which feeds perfectly in my PT1911.

KodiakBeer
November 20, 2011, 04:32 PM
Where exactly do they pull that date from?

It's from police reports nationwide. It's rather dated now being 10 or 15 years old, so I wouldn't take it to the bank when considering newer hollow-point designs, but it certainly shows a big gap between HP's and FMJ's.

fal762x51
November 20, 2011, 05:08 PM
The linked data is drawn from police shootings.

Actually, it is "data" from Marshall and Sanow. Their study was so unscientific that I do not think any usable information can be drawn from it. They refuse to share the raw data. There is no reason to believe their statistics aren't just completely made up. They won't allow others to interpret the data and reproduce it.

KodiakBeer
November 20, 2011, 05:40 PM
Their study was so unscientific that I do not think any usable information can be drawn from it.

That same data is available to anyone who wants to use it. It's simply public record data that anyone can access with their own time and money. One can criticize the methodology because the data includes torso hits from people who simply gave up after being shot with sometimes quite negligible wounds, yet even here you'd expect the "wimp factor" to be equal between HP's and FMJ's. Quite clearly it isn't.

The best way to evaluate this data is to ask handgun hunters about their experiences with HP's, round nosed FMJ's and flat-nosed FMJ's (or lead). NOBODY would be surprised to learn that .357 mag handgun deer hunters would nearly unanimously reject round-nosed FMJ's in favor or HP's or flat-nosed rounds (whether lead or jacketed).

Why do handgun hunters not use round nosed FMJ's? Because the deer run away and die somewhere else. Hunters want rounds that kill, er, "stop" an animal as quickly as possible so that the meat can be recovered.

The same rules apply when you are fighting for your life. You want to "stop" an assailant before he inflicts harm on you. HP's do that better than FMJ's.

fal762x51
November 20, 2011, 05:51 PM
That same data is available to anyone who wants to use it.

No they won't let an outside reviewer see their data. From a scientific standpoint, they will not allow verification. If they were attempting to publish this data, it would be rejected because it does not allow for outside review of the collected data. Saying that anyone could collect this data is true, but it would be impossible to tell if it is the same data. A lot of people are still willing to put great faith in M&S data, but generally these people do not understand how scientific data collection and interpretation works.

I am not at all disputing the increased effectiveness of hollow point ammo, nor am I doubting their conclusions. What I am saying is that their study can really not be treated as scientific data, and their study can't be used to reach that conclusion.

I prefer FMJ over JHP because I feel it feeds better. I accept that it is probably less effective than JHP. However, a functioning gun with FMJ is better than a jammed gun with JHP.

You want to "stop" an assailant before he inflicts harm on you. HP's do that better than FMJ's.

We agree on that, but its hard to stop anyone with a jammed gun.

1911Tuner
November 20, 2011, 06:02 PM
I do. I figger that if I can't git'r'done with 7 rounds of hardball, I probably can't git'r'done at all...and it's just one less thing to come up in court.

Rail Driver
November 20, 2011, 06:04 PM
I usually carry hardcast SWC, but when I can't get ahold of those locally I load it with FMJ.

fastbolt
November 20, 2011, 06:16 PM
I stopped carrying ball (FMJ) .45 ACP once the state-of-the-art of 1911 magazines reached the point where they permitted consistently reliable feeding with most hollowpoints in my 1911's.

Then, some years later, ball ammunition was no longer generally authorized for off-duty weapons due to concerns about excessive penetration and perforation ("over-penetration") of the intended threat target.

Yes, day in & day out "misses" are probably still more of a potential problem in defensive shooting situations, but then having the potential for even greater penetration of an unintended target with a ball round that missed could arguably be said to be even more of a potential problem, right?

The only time I'd use ball ammunition in a .45 any more was if a particular 1911 was only reliable with it :scrutiny: , and/or if it was strictly for range use because the price was significantly lower and made it more affordable for range sessions. (However, I'd still be firing my defensive ammunition/hollowpoints periodically for occasional function-testing of the gun, magazines and the different boxes/cases/lots of the ammunition I used.)

If I owned a 1911 which was only reliable with ball ammunition (for whatever reason was imaginable), it would remain a "range gun", used with ball ammunition ... and I'd use one of my other 1911's which did properly & consistently feed hollowpoints for lawful carry purpose.

We have better options available to us nowadays, in both the design & manufacture of .45 pistols & magazines, as well as improved hollowpoint ammunition (in both feeding and expansion/performance).

I'd use ball ammunition if I were required to do so, obviously, and I wouldn't lose much sleep over it ... but I'm not restricted to that scenario.

Suit yourselves. I do.

KodiakBeer
November 20, 2011, 06:58 PM
No they won't let an outside reviewer see their data.

It's not "their data". It's public record data from police agencies nationwide. They spent years of time and tons of money gathering that data, so it's not surprising they won't just give it away to anyone who wants a free ride.

We agree on that, but its hard to stop anyone with a jammed gun.


I haven't found that a problem. Even old GI guns can be "lipped" and have the feed ramp polished to feed hollow points reliably in 30 minutes or less. If I did have a gun that wouldn't feed a particular hollowpoint and I couldn't do the work myself (and didn't want to pay to have it done), I'd look for a hollowpoint that it did feed reliably and use that.

Still, no matter what you use just keep shooting until they fall down.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 20, 2011, 07:26 PM
I prefer FMJ over JHP because I feel it feeds better. I accept that it is probably less effective than JHP. However, a functioning gun with FMJ is better than a jammed gun with JHP.

How many JHPs have you run through your gun and how many failures have happened?

fal762x51
November 20, 2011, 07:42 PM
It's not "their data". It's public record data from police agencies nationwide. They spent years of time and tons of money gathering that data, so it's not surprising they won't just give it away to anyone who wants a free ride.

Scientists submitting a paper have to submit their data so it can be reviewed and verified by others before being accepted. M&S won't do that. So their data cannot be independently reviewed. Without independent review, you are simply accepting whatever they say is true. If they are biased, then you will never know.
How many JHPs have you run through your gun and how many failures have happened?

I have run hundreds, and admit they are very reliable. However, at least theoretically, they should be more prone to jamming. It has been my experience that they probably are, but only by a statistically small amount. However, I don't want to get screwed by statistics at the most inopportune time. I know that a gun loaded with FMJ can jam also. By keeping as few variables out of the jamming equation as possible, I hope to decrease my chances of such an event.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 20, 2011, 08:17 PM
I have run hundreds, and admit they are very reliable. However, at least theoretically, they should be more prone to jamming. It has been my experience that they probably are, but only by a statistically small amount. However, I don't want to get screwed by statistics at the most inopportune time. I know that a gun loaded with FMJ can jam also. By keeping as few variables out of the jamming equation as possible, I hope to decrease my chances of such an event.

What would cause your gun to jam in a way that FMJ would feed and JHP wouldn't? Sounds like you are creating the problem. What gun is it exactly that you carry?

fal762x51
November 20, 2011, 08:21 PM
What would cause your gun to jam in a way that FMJ would feed and JHP wouldn't?

A random feeding problem related to the JHP.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 20, 2011, 08:35 PM
and what would cause that? What gun is it that you carry?

fal762x51
November 20, 2011, 08:52 PM
Sometimes a 1911, sometimes a Glock 21.

Bonesinium
November 20, 2011, 10:16 PM
If I can't get it done with 7 or 8 rounds of FMJ, then I probably can't get it done at all.

How is this even an argument? Because you think one thing, that is reason to discount something else? That doesn't make any sense. It is illogical. I don't understand this at all.

So because you think you should be good with just 7 rounds of FMJ, that is reason to not use something that is more effective? That is akin to saying that I should be good with just wearing a seatbelt, so I don't need to have airbags. I should be good with just a jacket, so I don't need an umbrella.

I carry FMJ because I think that it is probably more reliable than JHP's even though I haven't had an issue.

I don't get this either. That is saying, I use something less effective because of an an idea that the thing that is more effective might fail, though it never has before. Really? My car says to use fully synthetic oil, but I think that might fail, so I'm going to use regular non synthetic oil because I think it should be more reliable.

In what world are we in where because of one factor, thing, or idea, that means we can discount other factors!?!

gc70
November 20, 2011, 10:35 PM
I thought the OP asked what people carried in their 1911s; who would have known that it was really an invitation to a cage-match about what was best.

Bonesinium
November 20, 2011, 10:49 PM
I thought the OP asked what people carried in their 1911s; who would have known that it was really an invitation to a cage-match about what was best.
No, that is not what the OP asked. He asked "how many people carry FMJ in a 1911" and "Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?"

I'm not sure how you interpret that, but it sounds a lot like he is asking about peoples opinion of FMJ vs JHP's to me. If it wasn't why did he start a thread...you know, where people discuss things...

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 21, 2011, 01:33 AM
Sometimes a 1911, sometimes a Glock 21.

If your 1911 is a modern one, it was most likely designed to feed JHPs and the Glock is certainly designed to use them as it was aimed at the American market. I never heard of a gun being too dirty to feed JHPs and you should always maintain your weapons and inspect them.

fal762x51
November 21, 2011, 01:43 AM
Dirtiness of the gun is not what I am worried about, as any gun that is being carried or used for defense i going to be kept clean. I am more concerned about a mag follower tilting, letting the round nose dive enough for the JHP edge to hang and not feed well, or other similar problem. This might still happen with a FMJ design, but probably less likely.

Prosser
November 21, 2011, 01:47 AM
Dillon 550. About 1980-1985. Load 3 hours every other day. I don't think my landlord, a DA, really understood why I had a Dillon press on my dining room table, but, he was ok with it, for 5 years.
Shoot 2-3 hours, at your own police range, every other day. No range marshalls, no limit on slow fire, just a boy and his Detonics Mark VI, Mac 10, and Gold Cup. Bullets were cheap enough back then to load what you carried, and practice with what you carried. Load came from Detonics. Also loaded a LOT of hardball, 230 grains, lead hard cast from a Nevada caster. That stuff was under.05 cents around, IIRC. It also was cast hard enough so it didn't lead, even at 1800 fps, out of a .45 Colt case, in a Seville/Linebaugh.

That said, by far the majority of my shooting was done by buying bullets wholesale, Shotgun News, through a local FFL, and using the Speer flying ashtrays, so If I ever had to use my carry gun, I knew where the bullet was going, and what it felt like.

I know it's hard for folks to remember what it was like back then.

Just like it's hard for me to get behind 1950's gun prices.

Also, when your best friends are the owner of Ballistic Research Incorporated, a genius high tech gunny that worked for Lockheed, and your boss is an ex-green beret, you are encouraged to shoot as much as possible, as often as possible. You are also not encouraged to just have sex with their sisters without getting married;-) B.R.I. gave new meaning to the term, "shotgun wedding!" :-)

jmstevens2
November 21, 2011, 01:52 AM
I am weird. We carried 000 and deer slugs alternating in our shotguns when I was a cop. I never got over that. I do that with most of my guns, in the 1911 though I carry a mag of Hornady Critical defense, a mag of Speer Gold Dots, and a FMJ Ball mag. If one doesn't work, I will get to the others. But I don't carry it too much anymore.

My AR is the same way. The 20 round mag on my bedside has 5 TAPs then 10 Ball, and in case they have really good armor on, the last 5 are steel cored penetrator rounds. A step up process I guess.

Jedburgh
November 21, 2011, 02:42 AM
I apologize in advance if this has been covered.

I carry FMJ in all my carry guns because they deal with barriers (glass, car doors, dry wall, etc) much better than JHP. I know that I won't control the time, place, or circumstances of an attack against myself or my family. I carry a round that is a generalist. Since I will control my shot placement, I train often.

JHP will perform better (expansion is good), but only under specific circumstances. I've heard that some shooters carry a few rounds of JHP followed by several mags of FMJ. For me, I feel comfortable knowing that I have a round that is capable in all circumstances (as capable as any pistol round can be).

I would advise against selecting ammunition based on the circumstances that you believe you will be attacked. You will either be lucky, or you will be wrong.

DOL

fal762x51
November 21, 2011, 07:57 AM
Thats a very good point, Jedburgh

Japle
November 21, 2011, 09:18 AM
Posted by fal762X51:
No they won't let an outside reviewer see their data.

They spent a lot of time and money gathering information and doing interviews with gunfight survivors. If an “outside reviewer” wants to verify it, he can spend his own time and money doing it. The information is all available to the public.

From a scientific standpoint, they will not allow verification.
A lot of people are still willing to put great faith in M&S data, but generally these people do not understand how scientific data collection and interpretation works.

It was never presented as scientific, just what it is; results of actual shootings, not lab experiments.

I am not at all disputing the increased effectiveness of hollow point ammo, nor am I doubting their conclusions.

Then we agree.

David E
November 21, 2011, 09:22 AM
I would advise against selecting ammunition based on the circumstances that you believe you will be attacked. You will either be lucky, or you will be wrong.

DOL

Sounds like this is exactly what you are doing.

You seem to anticipate your attacker(s) will always be behind cover when they initiate a deadly threat: I carry FMJ in all my carry guns because they deal with barriers (glass, car doors, dry wall, etc) much better than JHP.

While ball may perform better against these mediums, how likely would these scenarios be? If the badguy starts behind glass, car doors or drywall, how is he presenting an immediate deadly threat to you?

KungFuNerd
November 21, 2011, 09:40 AM
I don't get this either. That is saying, I use something less effective because of an an idea that the thing that is more effective might fail, though it never has before. Really?

1911's not feeding JHP reliably is EXTREMELY common.
My Gunsmith (a 1911 guy) told me that he regularly has to set up high end 1911's right out of the box to get the extractor and feed ramp working.

I have a low end 1911 American Classic GI that had to be shot a lot for break in and had to be 'smithed a bit plus getting elevated Feeder/Mags and now I THINK it feeds JHP reliably.
I still don't keep JHP in it because I only tried one Box and don't trust it yet.

Jedburgh
November 21, 2011, 10:21 AM
I would advise against selecting ammunition based on the circumstances that you believe you will be attacked. You will either be lucky, or you will be wrong.

DOL
Sounds like this is exactly what you are doing.

You seem to anticipate your attacker(s) will always be behind cover when they initiate a deadly threat:

I carry FMJ in all my carry guns because they deal with barriers (glass, car doors, dry wall, etc) much better than JHP.
While ball may perform better against these mediums, how likely would these scenarios be? If the badguy starts behind glass, car doors or drywall, how is he presenting an immediate deadly threat to you?

David-what I'm advocating is using a round that will be capable regardless of where the attack begins or where it goes after it has started. FMJ will outperform JHP penetrating barriers, but would be inferior to a steel-cored round. Essentially, I'm picking the middle (conservative) path. Like I said, it's a good general purpose round. Great at nothing, but capable enough if the shooter controls where the rounds go.

As far as getting attacked around cars; it isn't much of a stretch that you or the BG will seek cover around a vehicle if you are assaulted in a parking lot and shots are fired. Cars have both doors and glass. Having a round that will shoot through these barriers is a positive and, in my opinion, outweighs the other advantages of a JHP.

I feel confident that every man will pick the round that he thinks is best in his specific circumstances.

DOL

EvilGenius
November 21, 2011, 12:16 PM
So far I have only had FMJ loaded in my RIA for home defense since I have a limited budget and focus on spending my fun money on plinking ammo and range time.

Now I'm not entirely sure I need the JHP?

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 21, 2011, 01:55 PM
Dirtiness of the gun is not what I am worried about, as any gun that is being carried or used for defense i going to be kept clean. I am more concerned about a mag follower tilting, letting the round nose dive enough for the JHP edge to hang and not feed well, or other similar problem. This might still happen with a FMJ design, but probably less likely.

The follower tilting in a pistol magazine I can't see happening, have you ever taken the mag apart? The 1911 has metal followers that, unless they are really really crappy quality, wouldn't break and I don't see how they could possibly bend. The Glock's is made up of high quality plastic that I also couldn't see bending or breaking in the magazine. There are rental Glocks out there with 100,000s of thousands of rounds through them and the only magazine problems I've heard of are the springs wearing out. Once again, you are creating your own problems.

So far I have only had FMJ loaded in my RIA for home defense since I have a limited budget and focus on spending my fun money on plinking ammo and range time.

Now I'm not entirely sure I need the JHP?

I have a tight budget myself but I use Remington bulk JHP, it's around $36 for a box of 100 .40 S&W JHP. Unless your 1911 has a unramped barrel, you should be fine with the JHP.

In my opinion you don't really need the JHP but this is dealing with life and death, you want every advantage you can get.

JTQ
November 21, 2011, 02:15 PM
FIVETWOSEVEN wrote,
The 1911 has metal followers that, unless they are really really crappy quality, wouldn't break and I don't see how they could possibly bend.
He is not saying the followers are breaking or bending, he is saying the follower is tilting.
I am more concerned about a mag follower tilting, letting the round nose dive enough for the JHP edge to hang and not feed well, or other similar problem.


These two articles may help illustrate the way a 1911 feeds rounds.

http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines/

http://how-i-did-it.org/magazines2/

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 21, 2011, 02:28 PM
He is not saying the followers are breaking or bending, he is saying the follower is tilting.

If the follower doesn't break or bend, it can't tilt to the point of failure. Even so, it would be the last round effected, not the entire magazine.

JTQ
November 21, 2011, 02:34 PM
This is for 1911's only, I make no claims for other pistols and their mags.

He is still not saying the follower is failing. He is saying the follower is tipping and allowing the round to hit the feed ramp at a non-optimum angle.

Tilting followers is very common, especially with 8 rounders. You will find each round in a magazine hits the feed ramp at just a slightly different point. Most common with the first three round from a mag.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 21, 2011, 03:01 PM
If your 1911s mag has follower issues that cause it to jam, that's the magazines fault, not the ammo. If you've never had an issue in a few hundred rounds, then you are good. Can't see the magazine tilting to the point of failure without bending or breaking.

JTQ
November 21, 2011, 03:08 PM
FIVETWOSEVEN wrote,
Can't see the magazine tilting to the point of failure without bending or breaking.
It's not the magazine tilting. Nothing is breaking. It is the follower tipping within the tube. Think of a diving board. The leading edged of the follower tips forward (actually down) in the tube. This allows the bullet to hit lower on the feed ramp. This is generally not a problem with a longer round like a FMJ, but a short HP round could cause problems.

EvilGenius
November 21, 2011, 03:10 PM
I have a tight budget myself but I use Remington bulk JHP, it's around $36 for a box of 100 .40 S&W JHP. Unless your 1911 has a unramped barrel, you should be fine with the JHP.

In my opinion you don't really need the JHP but this is dealing with life and death, you want every advantage you can get.

Is that the "sure shot" stuff?

David E
November 21, 2011, 03:33 PM
David-what I'm advocating is using a round that will be capable regardless of where the attack begins or where it goes after it has started. FMJ will outperform JHP penetrating barriers, but would be inferior to a steel-cored round.

And it's inferior to JHP in flesh.

it isn't much of a stretch that you or the BG will seek cover around a vehicle if you are assaulted in a parking lot and shots are fired.

How could he get to cover if FMJ is:capable enough if the shooter controls where the rounds go.

Having a round that will shoot through these barriers is a positive

Unless those barriers aren't present, then you have that whole over-penetration issue to deal with.

in my opinion, outweighs the other advantages of a JHP.

A properly selected JHP would work very well on those barriers while maintaining it's enhanced effectiveness on clothed flesh. Worst case, it'll work just like FMJ.

KodiakBeer
November 21, 2011, 03:33 PM
1911's not feeding JHP reliably is EXTREMELY common.

Not true. 1911's not feeding a PARTICULAR JHP is common enough to be worth mentioning, but any gun that will feed ball will feed some JHP's, and all of them will feed just about any hollowpoint with some tweaking - good mags, rounding off the lower 1/3rd of the barrel, polishing the feed ramp, etc.

In my experience, even stock WWII era GI guns with GI mags will feed Federal Hydra-Shoks 100% reliably. I'm sure there are other JHP's that work just as reliably, but my old 1911's have been range toys so it's not something I've experimented with very much, beyond the Hydra-Shoks.

It's a lot easier (and cheaper) to find a JHP that your gun likes than to try to make a gun feed a JHP with a poor feed profile.

JTQ
November 21, 2011, 05:03 PM
It is the follower tipping within the tube. Think of a diving board.
Hey, I'm taking issue with my own post. The follower doesn't bend like a diving board, but it can tip forward.

Sorry for being part of the problem.

Bonesinium
November 21, 2011, 05:19 PM
1911's not feeding JHP reliably is EXTREMELY common.

I still don't keep JHP in it because I only tried one Box and don't trust it yet.

There is a difference in not using them because they do NOT feed, then not using them because you THINK there is a greater possibility that they MAY not feed.

One poster said even though they have shot hundreds of JHP's without issue, he still won't carry them because he thinks there is a greater possibility of failure. THAT is an illogical reason.

Now if you haven't tested an ammo, you are right, you cannot know if it works well until you have tried it. So not using that ammo in a carry weapon IS a legitimate reason. No arguments there. I got some new self defense ammo to try out, but I haven't got to test it yet, so for now, I'm not carrying it. Some magical belief that it shouldn't or wouldn't work is not a legitimate reason though.

Lone_Gunman
November 21, 2011, 07:11 PM
Hey it has been a long time since I have posted here, but I thought I would add my 2 cents for what its worth. I have been a trauma/vascular surgeon for about 20 years now. I have seen people shot with every thing from 22 LR to 30-06. Now obviously, people I see are not dead at the same, but some of them arrive to the trauma unit nearly dead.

Of the people I have operated on, and the projectiles I have recovered, or seen on X ray, I would tell you that hollow points do not expand as well as the companies that make them would claim. I have never seen an expanded 380 hollowpoint. I would say less than 50% of 45 and 9mm projectiles will expand.

Most hollow points just plug up, and dont expand at all.

Ken Rainey
November 21, 2011, 07:21 PM
Thank you Lone Gunman...this is the type of info I had referred to earlier and what ammo buyers really need to be aware of...again, no ammunition manufacturer will guarantee their hollow points to expand - it all depends on the mediums that they encounter and those can vary immensely...nothing wrong with using them but remember that it's just a "perk" if they expand, you should not count on it.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 21, 2011, 10:50 PM
It's not the magazine tilting. Nothing is breaking. It is the follower tipping within the tube. Think of a diving board. The leading edged of the follower tips forward (actually down) in the tube. This allows the bullet to hit lower on the feed ramp. This is generally not a problem with a longer round like a FMJ, but a short HP round could cause problems.

Can't see the magazine tilting to the point of failure without bending or breaking.

Must have missed that.

Is that the "sure shot" stuff?

I don't know what you mean.

KungFuNerd
November 22, 2011, 12:43 AM
JHP were not 100% in my 1911.
After repair it was 99%
I have since tweaked the Extractor more but haven't cared enough to burn through JHP to check it.

I don't think many of you have ever owned a 1911.
They have to be set up.
My Glocks will eat anything you put in them.

David E
November 22, 2011, 01:11 AM
JHP were not 100% in my 1911.
After repair it was 99%

A 1% failure rate is totally unacceptable.

I don't think many of you have ever owned a 1911.

We do. Apparently, we have a better gunsmith than you...

They have to be set up.

My 4" Kimber Compact lightweight is 100% from the factory, as are my Para's and several others.

My Glocks will eat anything you put in them.

then carry a Glock!

jahwarrior
November 22, 2011, 07:04 AM
I don't think many of you have ever owned a 1911.
They have to be set up.

that's funny, my Taurus PT1911 has been flawless since i bought it over 3 years ago, without having to "set it up." matter of fact, it's had no problems whatsoever, until the other day, when i noticed the front sight had shifted to the right, which was an easy enough fix. apparently, you have less experience with 1911s than everyone else here.

BeerSleeper
November 22, 2011, 07:36 AM
My new RIA 1911 has fed 230 RN FMJ flawlessly at this point. It has jammed more often than chambered with 200 SWC or 200 FN. That was all I had on hand to try out. I haven't tried yet, but I believe JHP results will be similar to these rounds.

This is no dig on the gun, it's a GI model, which makes it pretty close to the original design, which was for ball ammo. It is pretty commonly known that 1911's generally need a little work to feed non-ball ammo, and I'm looking forward to learning how to do it. That was in fact the main reason I did not spend extra for a pistol that already had this done.

It has FMJ in it, for now, but it hasn't graduated to carry duty yet, either.

CajunBass
November 22, 2011, 08:13 AM
I don't even own a 1911 anymore, but when I did, I was quite happy to carry FMJ ammo in it. Didn't bother me at all.

wch
November 22, 2011, 08:21 AM
I was called as an "expert witness" in a court case where the shooter had fired expanding bullets at a felon; he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter because he didn't use fmj bullets.

1911Tuner
November 22, 2011, 08:23 AM
I don't think many of you have ever owned a 1911.
They have to be set up.

My old, original/correct and unaltered/untweaked USGIs and 20s-era commercial Golt must not have gotten that memo. They all run just fine with hollowpoints and even 200-grain lead SWC...and they do it from the old GI "hardball" magazines. I've got several examples, including a 1913...a 1919...two 1918s...a 1925 Government Model...two Rands...an Ithaca...four Colts...and the Union Switch twins...and none of them can tell the difference between hardball and hollowpoints and SWCs.

And, yeah. I own a few. Here's about half the collection.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/Spread.jpg

And here are a few of my projects in progress...or a least they were. I've finished up with most of'em.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/147.jpg

punkndisorderly
November 22, 2011, 08:51 AM
I carried fmj years ago when I first started carrying. I had a Springfield Compact and was convinced from reading magazines it wouldn't be reliable with anything else. Eventually, I tried some hollowpoints and, to my amazement, they worked. Then I tried more. They worked, too. I bit the bullet and bought 250 rounds and they worked as well. I switched to jhp and never looked back.

I carry Glock now, so no worries about jhp reliability.

To my knowledge, only one PD issues fmj, and they only issue as a secondary load in case the primary fmj load fails in the case of a barrier. I don't know of any top tier trainer that recommends fmj. I don't know of any modern study that shows parity in performance between fmj and jhp. Everything i've seen shows jhp has an edge in real world performance.

The only reason I can see for carrying fmj is if your carry gun wouldn't feed jhp after trying it, you had no other options for a carry gun, and you couldn't afford a smith to tune your gun for reliability.

I'm switching back to my 1911 for carry in the near future, after a trip to a competent smith for some work. It's reliable with jhp's already. When I switch, jhp's will be on board.

Japle
November 22, 2011, 09:00 AM
Posted by wch:
I was called as an "expert witness" in a court case where the shooter had fired expanding bullets at a felon; he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter because he didn't use fmj bullets.

And my mother was 12 feet tall.

USSR
November 22, 2011, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Posted by wch:
I was called as an "expert witness" in a court case where the shooter had fired expanding bullets at a felon; he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter because he didn't use fmj bullets.

And my mother was 12 feet tall.

Yeah, I'm calling BS on that as well.

Don

punkndisorderly
November 22, 2011, 10:06 AM
I could see this in NJ (don't they forbid hollowpoints) or if by "expanding" it was some armor peircing, incendiary, flechette of instant death bought from some guy at a gunshow who makes them in his basement.

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 10:19 AM
I don't know what you mean.

The only Remington bulk I could find nearby in the $30-$40 range.

I know prices vary on location, just curious if it's the same stuff you mentioned.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 22, 2011, 11:15 AM
And here are a few of my projects in progress...or a least they were. I've finished up with most of'em.

I still think that it's unfair that you have so many that you can have a box of project 1911s like that. :D

The only Remington bulk I could find nearby in the $30-$40 range.

I know prices vary on location, just curious if it's the same stuff you mentioned.

That's it. I've shot a box of 100 through my XD then I bought another one and use that to load the gun/mags. It isn't Hornady TAP or any other high self defensive ammo but it will still do the job.

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 11:27 AM
I still think that it's unfair that you have so many that you can have a box of project 1911s like that. :D



That's it. I've shot a box of 100 through my XD then I bought another one and use that to load the gun/mags. It isn't Hornady TAP or any other high self defensive ammo but it will still do the job.
Cool.

Not looking for anything super high end but it's probably better than FMJ and at $40 for 100 a pretty good deal.

mljdeckard
November 22, 2011, 11:56 AM
The only gun I have ever needed to have milled to feed hollow-points was a 1st Gen S&W Sigma .40. (One of MANY problems I had with it.) Between myself and my friends, we have all cross-trained with each others' 1911s, from Kimber, Para, Springfield Armory, Auto Ordnance, Wilson, Baer, Sig, S&W, etc, and NONE of them have ever needed any adjustments to feed JHP ammo. (including the G.I. 'vintage' models.) I have only HEARD that a lot of G.I. pistols that came from armories into civilian hands needed to be throated to feed JHP ammo, but I have never personally seen a 1911 that wouldn't feed JHP out of the box.

David E
November 22, 2011, 12:39 PM
I was called as an "expert witness" in a court case where the shooter had fired expanding bullets at a felon; he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter because he didn't use fmj bullets.

For which side were you called?

Because SOMEBODY is an idiot, if they didn't point out that 99.99% of law enforcement issues JHP's

Prosser
November 22, 2011, 01:09 PM
I'd like to see a reference for that case. Can't imagine that one not going up on appeal.

Just a sobering reminder that such stuff does happen in court:

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

IIRC, part of the offense in the Fish trial was that he was carrying a .40, or a 10MM, and that he used 'deadly hollow point' bullets.


"They argued that the defendant was armed with too much fire power on May 11, 2004. "

"And this juror was disturbed by the type of bullets Fish used.

Meagan Elliot, juror: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill. "

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.

Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?

Lessler: Yes.

In sumation:

Michael Lessler, prosecutor: Mr. Fish shot him three time in the chest with this high powered gun, hollow point bullets and caused his death. That’s murder.
After the publicity this trial pulled, there is no way they could try him again and find 12 fools to convict him, as they did in the first trial.

David E
November 22, 2011, 01:18 PM
Some have cited the .45 FMJ is a good all around choice because they think it works better penetrating barriers like auto glass and car doors. Does it?

200+P Gold Dot JHP penetrates 14.58" of ballistic gelatin AFTER penetrating 1/4" A.S.I. Safety Glass. It expanded to .647" The 230, 13.1", expanding to .609"

Thru 20 gauge steel, they penetrate 22.8" and 19.45" respectively.

So tell me again what I'm giving up to FMJ when it comes to barriers.

What the FMJ user is giving up is expansion in flesh. The 200 grain gets to .819, the 230 blooms to .711.

FMJ? Stays steady at .451

Choosing FMJ for feed reliability is one thing, but I'd find a good gunsmith instead.

Robert101
November 22, 2011, 01:28 PM
For me it is simple. I use HPs for all of my handguns with the exception of my .380, which gets FMJ for penetration. Yes, I use HPs in my 45, 10MM, 40 cal.

Eventhough I'm getting old, I do believe in technology advances and see the benefits of the HP design. Reliability is important, but if the gun will not feed HPs then I need to fix the gun, mag., or use another's design of HP ammo.

Prosser
November 22, 2011, 02:05 PM
What I don't get about the entire issue is how the technology is somehow new?

Didn't the .45 Colt use soft lead bullets, around 950 fps, that expanded well,
and were very effective?

Sure, they didn't have a jacket to feed into an automatic, but the actual effect is the same as, or better then the .45 ACP ammunition we have now.

Why? The .45 Colt used a heavier bullet, and still expands, with more velocity then most .45 ACP rounds.

SDM originally asks,
"Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?"

I might fit into that category. I don't see a reason to substitute expansion,
by using a hollow point, and removing bullet weight, for bullet weight, and added velocity.

I would like more velocity, and more bullet weight, to get back to the .45 Colt specs. My goal would be a 260 grain bullet, at least at 950 fps, that still expands. Another avenue would be a flat point, made from pure lead, with a very thin copper jacket. It would feed, but, by not removing the weight from the hollow point, you can have a shorter bullet, that leaves more room for powder. The added speed would make expansion more reliable.

Buffalobore has something like this:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
255 grains at 925 fps.

I have a bunch of friends that SWEAR by the .45 Colt, with LFN type bullets like the above, but at 1100 fps.

It doesn't need to expand, since bullet design and velocity cut a considerable hole in whatever you shoot.

There are those who also think the advantage lies in the above, but hard cast, and non-expanding.

If you look at these high speed pictures, you can see the cone shaped pressure wave created by HP ammo.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1950.htm

The flat point hard cast bullets don't slow down nearly as much, due to lack of expansion, and they create a hole more like a shotgun slug, big, with a more cylindrical, longer wound channel. The advantage of the added speed through the target is it turns any hard matter, such as bone, into a secondary projectile, and high speed, that causes devastating damage on it's own.

Here is a picture of a LFN, this one .50 caliber, at 950 fps, and the exit whole it left in a deer:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/440grainHardcastat950fps500JRH300wincartridgeforcomparision.jpg
.300 Win mag for size comparision.


Here is a .45 Colt exit hole on another deer:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/45deer01045coltentry1150fpshardcast.jpg
1150 fps hard cast.

So, I am less then enamored with current .45 ACP offerings.
I think the avenue most of the ammo has taken is a combination of Political
Correctness, compromise, and the need to be able to shoot in older guns.

I would like more bullet weight, and more speed. My solution for 1911's has been 230 grain Speer HP's at 1100 fps, that being .45 Super. I would also feel pretty good about 200 grains at 1200 fps, or, LFN type bullets at similar speeds.

A load I've always wanted, but haven't seen much of is a Truncated cone 185 grain hard cast bullet, at 1300-1400 fps, much like the old .451Detonics. You would get limited expansion, a BIG hole due to the velocity and
bullet construction, and a flat shooting round, with relatively little recoil.

David E
November 22, 2011, 02:09 PM
Shoot those same deer with roundnose and take pics for comparison.

S.B.
November 22, 2011, 02:22 PM
USSR, Pertaining to your picture on page 1 of this thread, what was the medium used and what does the 25-1 indicate below? Distance from target? How much penetration did you get? Or just pretty bullets all in a row?
Steve

gunguy0829
November 22, 2011, 02:24 PM
dont have a 1911, but all my pistols are loaded with fmj

S.B.
November 22, 2011, 02:29 PM
The only reason the Geneva convention lists FMJ bullets is because Germany wanted to use their Lugers and that's the only bullet they could get them to shoot. Bullet design has certainly advanced since then.
Steve

Prosser
November 22, 2011, 02:42 PM
David: Excellent point.

SDM originally asked if you were not enamored with .45 ACP hollowpoints.

I think I explained that. I think your point is good as well, that ball ammo may not be a superior fall back position.

That said, the testing I have seen on ball is it does penetrate
and create a fairly decent wound channel.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45ACP%20230gr%20FMJ.jpg

Used to load .45 ACP super hard cast 230 grain ball in my .45 Colt/Linebaugh.
Just fill the case with H-110, seat the bullet, shoot it.

I estimate about 1800 fps. I suspect that velocity plays into how effective
ball ammo is.

There is pretty good evidence that wound channel increases considerably between 700 fps, and 1100-1200 fps, regardless of bullet design.

The wound channel seems to stop increasing much after that, unless a serious velocity difference is used.

However, for hard cast, if you can get to 1350 fps, you start having bullets
deform, and become expanding on their own:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/H%20H%20375%20buffalo/Recoveredbullets500JRHor500MAX.jpg

with a pretty good jump in wound channel, now due to bullet expansion as well.

That 155 grain wadcutter at 1350-1400 fps in starting to look better all the time.;)

Epiphany:

I've loaded some Hawk bullets, with thin jackets, to pretty high velocity.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/Model%2083%20FA%20475/DSC_0060FA83Barrelshotbulletsverycl.jpg

I asked Hawk what speed they wanted to ensure expansion. They said 1300 fps, but 1200 fps would be the minimum. I guess they figure that if they get going 1300 fps, since the core is soft lead, it's going to expand, regardless of is the HP works or not. Smart Cookies.:D

Sean Smith
November 22, 2011, 09:23 PM
The only reason the Geneva convention lists FMJ bullets is because Germany wanted to use their Lugers and that's the only bullet they could get them to shoot. Bullet design has certainly advanced since then.

Unfortunately it looks like human intelligence hasn't. None of what you've said is actually, you know, TRUE.

HINT: The Geneva Conventions aren't the treaties that banned expanding bullets, it was the Hague Conventions of 1899, which predate the Luger P08 by almost a decade.

willypete
November 22, 2011, 09:41 PM
The Geneva Conventions aren't the treaties that banned expanding bullets, it was the Hague Conventions of 1899, which predate the Luger P08 by almost a decade.

Shucks, you beat me to it.

LCPor9mm
November 22, 2011, 09:43 PM
I like this, it's almost as good as my caliber is better than yours because.....:evil:

Federal that has an offering called "Guarddog" that looks interesting. It's truncated cone nose design looks like feeding wouldn't be an issue. Sorry photo didn't stick.
Technical Information

•Caliber: 45 ACP
•Bullet Weight: 165 Grains
•Bullet Style: Expanding Full Metal Jacket
•Case Type: Nickel Plated Brass

Ballistics Information:
•Muzzle Velocity: 1140 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 476 ft. lbs

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 22, 2011, 09:46 PM
http://www.natchezss.com/images/products/_med/FAPD45GRD_med.jpg

There the image you you.

LCPor9mm
November 22, 2011, 09:53 PM
Thanks Seven

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 10:02 PM
Huh, that's pretty interesting.

Wonder what the "expansion" stats are on it compared to regular hollow points.

David E
November 22, 2011, 10:59 PM
Prosser, I'm not saying FMJ doesn't penetrate well, only that certain JHP's penetrate barriers well enough to get the job done.

If you needed to penetrate 20 gauge steel with a JHP and it still penetrates 22.7" of ballistic gelatin, does it matter if FMJ penetrates 30"? If the torso is 12" -15" front to back, it seems to me that a 22" depth is sufficient.

KungFuNerd
November 22, 2011, 11:57 PM
A 1% failure rate is totally unacceptable.
We do. Apparently, we have a better gunsmith than you...
My 4" Kimber Compact lightweight is 100% from the factory, as are my Para's and several others.
then carry a Glock!

Ummm....if your Kimber was already 100% then you didn't need a Gunsmith.
This Gunsmith hasn't worked on my 1911 yet. It went in for free warranty service.
The issue with mine was that it wouldn't feed the FIRST Round and sometimes the second or third.
A half empty mag it would feed anything.
They had an issue with an out of spec Mag Catch

And for the record...he has been a gunsmith for 30 years.
Has been an IPSC Master Class Shooter for 20 years.
And he competes with 1911's that he builds for himself.
So if he tells me something about 1911's I listen.

Prosser
November 23, 2011, 01:33 AM
David E:

Well, went over this today with my gunsmith. He pulled a tape measure out, and was going to measure how far in 14" is. First thing I did was square up, and point my gun at him, metaphorically, pointing out that if he was shooting at me, I was going to have both arms up, aiming at where he was aiming at me. Taped that way, the bullet may not even get to my bicep, much less my vitals, and will not keep me from continuing to try and defend myself.

I thought FMJ a reasonable alternative, he didn't. His experience with hardball, or round nose bullets has NOT been good. I thought that given enough bullet weight, round noses must be ok. I mean the .450 Nitro Express has worked for years, using 480 grain ball, hasn't it?

He pointed out that the stuff nearly got him killed. It worked once on a really mean buffalo bison cross, that was trying to kill the truck, and him.

He jumped out, hit it with one barrel, and the animal got right up. However, that gave him time to hit it with the next barrel in the brain. Game over.

Next time out, he, or the gun doubles. He hits the buffalo with one barrel in the shoulder. However, the bullet turns on the shoulder, when it should have gone through to the other side, through the vitals. The bullet went down the outside of the ribcage, and ended up under the skin, on the outside, nothing vital hit. That VERY pissed off buffalo didn't kill him because he was lucky enough to have friends backing him up, who finished the buffalo as it charged.

So, if I'm going with round nose, I guess it better be heavier, like the 600 grain Barnes solids, in .510".

Seems to me that I have heard some rather strange results with .45 ACP ball
going places it shouldn't, rather then straight through the target.

Anyone have similar results? I'm really not warm and fuzzy about bullets that don't stay online when you put them where they are supposed to be.

I also got an ear full that one of the problems with the original .45 Colt loads
was that, due to the soft lead used, the bullets would deform too much, and fail to penetrate to the vitals. Solution is harder casting, and heavier bullets, with LFN type designs.

Just to put my money where my mouth is, I bought 40 rounds of 425 grain bullets, LFN's, at 1350 fps, in .500JRH today.:D

My 1911 came out like new. I like the chrome bead blast finish JRH put on it.

David E
November 23, 2011, 01:41 AM
Ummm....if your Kimber was already 100% then you didn't need a Gunsmith.

Nope, the guns I mentioned have never seen a gunsmith.


This Gunsmith hasn't worked on my 1911 yet. It went in for free warranty service.


And for the record...he has been a gunsmith for 30 years.
Has been an IPSC Master Class Shooter for 20 years.
And he competes with 1911's that he builds for himself.
So if he tells me something about 1911's I listen.

Sounds like you have a good one there. I had a problem with a gun the factory couldn't fix, but my gunsmith did. You may have the same experience with yours.

What's his name? Maybe I've shot with him.

willypete
November 23, 2011, 01:46 AM
A 1% failure rate is totally unacceptable.

I just caught that.

If you run a machine long enough, eventually, it will break down somewhere. If you haven't had a failure of some sort, get out and shoot some more. :D

I've had my Rock Island experience various failures during range sessions, and all of them can be traced to bad magazines or being too dirty. That doesn't discourage me from using it as a carry gun. I just make sure to clean and lube it frequently, and use high-quality mags that I've tested with carry ammo.

David E
November 23, 2011, 01:47 AM
Prosser,

The Speer bullets penetrated over 22", if that matters in your scenario.

Interesting stories from your gunsmith.

David E
November 23, 2011, 01:50 AM
I just caught that.

If you run a machine long enough, eventually, it will break down somewhere. If you haven't had a failure of some sort, get out and shoot some more. :D.

Obviously, but a 1% failure rate is far too high.

One failure per 100 shots? No, I require, and get, better than that.

Hit_Factor
November 23, 2011, 06:32 AM
...and it's just one less thing to come up in court.

Can you cite a case where ammo selection was the only issue in court?

1911Tuner
November 23, 2011, 07:20 AM
Can you cite a case where ammo selection was the only issue in court?

Now, where did you get the "only" issue from what I said? I said "one less thing" going on the premise that I'd have many questions to answer in the aftermath of a defensive shooting. Ammo choice would just be one less thing. I mean...what can a prosecutor say about hardball? That it makes a hole, and not a lot more. No brainer. Move on to the next question.

Can you cite a case where ammo selection was the only issue in court?

Fish. One of the polled jurors said that she felt that he was justified in firing, but that his choice of "Deadly, overpowered hollowpoint ammunition that is only designed to inflict maximum damage...to kill...ammunition far more powerful that the police used" caused her to decide to vote to convict.

It's an old legal eagle strategy known as pulling everything out of the bag of tricks to overwhelm and keep the defense off balance and on the defensive, hoping that they're not prepared to answer all questions. Juries can be swayed on the turn of a phrase, or...as Twain noted..."The right word...delivered at just the right moment...is like a thunderbolt."

Remember this, if nothing else. Civilian court proceedings aren't so much about getting to the truth. They're about winning, and doing all that is legally admissible to achieve that end.

Hit_Factor
November 23, 2011, 08:07 AM
Fish has numerous issues making it difficult to pinpoint the conviction. Polling jurors is not a precedent.

My guess is going armed in the first place may have a bigger influence on a decision over the type of ammo or caliber.

I'm just looking for case law, there was no ill intent here.

JTQ
November 23, 2011, 08:51 AM
Prosser wrote,
Anyone have similar results? I'm really not warm and fuzzy about bullets that don't stay online when you put them where they are supposed to be.
Possibly going a little far afield here, but there is some relevance with bullet path. My guess is a hollow point that doesn't expand may follow a straighter path than ball ammo. Semi-wadcutters have a reputation for following a much straighter path through media than ball.

Proser, based on your previous posts, you seem like a guy who may have seen this already, but here is an article that may explain why ball ammo doesn't follow a straight path.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

Jim Watson
November 23, 2011, 08:58 AM
Jeff Cooper reported that, contrary to appearances, the Hornady .45 flat point - an enlarged version of their first USAF design - penetrated straighter and deeper than roundnose. Apparently the same stabilizing influence of the definite lines of demarcation between flat nose and ogive, then ogive and bearing surface.

I think it was M. Ayoob who reported that .45 ACP hardball would exit a human body less often than ballistics would predict (and that old standard .38 Special roundnose more often.)

JTQ
November 23, 2011, 10:22 AM
Likewise, the 200 gr .38 Special wadcutter design, that I believe was a popular law enforcement round 50+ years ago. Probably to get straighter bullet path and more penetration out of a low powered round.

SharpsDressedMan
November 23, 2011, 01:40 PM
Been gone for a couple days. I guess we all have our reasons for carrying what we do. I think we can agree that FMJ vs. JHP offers different advantages either way. JHP's MAY expand most of the time, and MAY do more tissue damage. FMJ's MAY penetrate deeper and MAY feed reliably at a higher per centage. We've had forensic people (doctors, ER folks, etc) comment about JHP's not expanding, and many true believers, confident that their guns work at the same level with JHP's as FMJ's, and they feel better armed with JHPs'. I guess some of it comes down to gut feelings. I can't prove FMJ's ARE more reliable (even in MY guns), as I haven't had feeding failures with the JHP's I currently use (on occasion). I just feel a little warmer and fuzzier about reliability with th FMJ's, and that they might pentrate barriers better, a concern with defense from and against vehicles. JHP's might ricochet less, and that is a valid point to consider, too. I do know I can practice more with FMJ's over JHP's (due to cost). The quality JHP's are slightly more accurate in my guns, but that mostly matters in hunting, not so much at combat distances..............

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 23, 2011, 02:18 PM
I have noticed no difference in the way my gun recoils and all with my carry ammo versus FMJ rounds. I only shoot JHP once in awhile.

KodiakBeer
November 23, 2011, 02:57 PM
Again, I think an interesting thread could be produced in the hunting forum asking for anecdotes from those who hunt hogs and deer with a .357. I say .357 because it's very commonly used in both hunting and self defense.

I don't think you'll find many hunters using round nosed FMJ's for the purpose, but it would be interesting to hear of any personal experiences.

Ken Rainey
November 23, 2011, 04:24 PM
KodiakBeer - you're right for hunting, since a .357 usually comes from a revolver and at much greater speed so that a hollow point can be of use...but that's a different deal from an auto loading heavy slow bullet to be used for defensive purposes...of course, it's shot placement with adequate penetration that makes the difference in hunting as well with bigger and faster generally being better!

aeriedad
November 23, 2011, 04:36 PM
Hey it has been a long time since I have posted here, but I thought I would add my 2 cents for what its worth. I have been a trauma/vascular surgeon for about 20 years now. I have seen people shot with every thing from 22 LR to 30-06. Now obviously, people I see are not dead at the same, but some of them arrive to the trauma unit nearly dead.

Of the people I have operated on, and the projectiles I have recovered, or seen on X ray, I would tell you that hollow points do not expand as well as the companies that make them would claim. I have never seen an expanded 380 hollowpoint. I would say less than 50% of 45 and 9mm projectiles will expand.

Most hollow points just plug up, and dont expand at all.

I don't have a real strong opinion on this one way or the other, largely because FMJ in .45 is still pretty effective, and because--as you point out here--JHP doesn't always expand. My 1911 loves JHP, but the spare mag has FMJ. In my view, even if only 50% of my JHPs expand, I think they're worth it.

Anyway, the reason I chose to speak up here is to highlight a point your post just touches on: What about the people that skip the trauma unit and go straight to the morgue? How well and how often do those JHPs expand? Of course you don't know, and nobody expects you to. However, your post reminded me of something I read not long ago (even though the source is over five years old) about terminal ballistics. It's a LONG read for those that are that interested, but there is a lot of good stuff in the early sections, and the author is a former LEO who now works in a morgue. He also discusses FMJ vs. JHP, and he's not terribly impressed with JHP--especially in anything smaller than .45. It seemed to me that combining his perspective with yours would be worthwhile for those willing to read a bit: http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

JTQ
November 23, 2011, 04:41 PM
KodiakBeer wrote,
Again, I think an interesting thread could be produced in the hunting forum asking for anecdotes from those who hunt hogs and deer with a .357. I say .357 because it's very commonly used in both hunting and self defense.

I don't think you'll find many hunters using round nosed FMJ's for the purpose, but it would be interesting to hear of any personal experiences.
I think you do make an interesting point.

If you are hunting pigs with the .357, are you using 125gr HP's or bullets 158 gr (and up) and do you lean towards HP's or semi-wadcutters?

If you are shooting little (sub 100 pound pigs) up close, where the .357 mag is more than enough for the task at hand, does it matter much what bullet you are using?

If you are shooting very large pigs, where the .357 mag may be marginal for the task, where you are thinking, "gee I should have brought the rifle", are you more likely to choose the high energy rapid expanding bullet, or the heavier deeper penetrating bullet?

Prosser
November 23, 2011, 05:31 PM
Combine both. Lee Jurras used to do that with the .44 magnum, and, he shot nearly everything on the planet with the .44.
His secret was altering the bullet construction to the game he was hunting. With 180 grain bullets, when he was faced with big game, he used pretty much silouhette bullets,
a small HP, with a very thick jacket, that doesn't expand.

JTQ's link explains why these bullets penetrate straighter and more consistently then the
FMJ's, or HPs when they expand.


http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

I always felt that if the 200 grain .45 Hps didn't expand, at 1200 fps they are
still going to cut a big wound channel.

Likewise if I can take a 200 grain flat point, get it to feed reliably, at 1200 fps, I'm good with that.

As far as expense, I don't see why you cant' find a 200-260 grain LFN
that feeds. Cast bullets would allow way more practice.

Anyone have a bullet maker that makes large quantities of .45 ACP/colt bullets that feed reliabily in 1911's LFN's or truncated cones, for a reasonable price? Have to be cast hard enough not to lead.

Jim Cooper:

I remember playing with Hornady's 185 grain truncated cone, and, Speers
185 grain HP. Neither was a favorite for one reason, lack of a crimp groove, and the possibility of the bullets moving under recoil. I'm sure someone has come up with a better design, since.

David E:
Which Speer bullet penetrates 22"?

Guess I'm going to look for more bullets...

These look REALLY good:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/531249/speer-bullets-45-caliber-452-diameter-200-grain-lead-semi-wadcutter-box-of-500

1911Tuner
November 23, 2011, 05:39 PM
Fish has numerous issues making it difficult to pinpoint the conviction. Polling jurors is not a precedent.

That wasn't my point. That being that it will be introduced...right or wrong and whether it has any bearing on the outcome or not...and that it's just one more thing to have to explain and/or justify. Remember that the average juror's understanding of firearms and ballistics comes from TV cop shows...and we all know what sort of spin that most of those put on the question.

I'm not trying to sway anyone. Your choice is your choice and mine is mine.

Prosser
November 23, 2011, 05:52 PM
The really sad part is Fish picked an excellent choice for a trail gun, against dogs, yotes, etc. 10 MM.

The fact that hollowpoints were sold as a bad thing by the DA, when they are
industry LEO standard now is a major concern.

1911Tuner
November 23, 2011, 05:59 PM
The fact that hollowpoints were sold as a bad thing by the DA, when they are
industry LEO standard now is a major concern.

Yes it is. In an ideal world, a good shoot would be a good shoot and whatever is used in a good shoot would be inadmissible...but it's not an ideal world. The object of the exercise is winning the case...not seeing to it that justice is served. The prosecutor wants a conviction. It looks good on his resume' and...like any politician...the next election is always in the back of his mind.

David E
November 23, 2011, 07:26 PM
.

David E:
Which Speer bullet penetrates 22"?
]

In Post #144 I cite a couple instances of Speer Gold Dots. The one I think you're curious about is the .45 +P 200 JHP

Japle
November 23, 2011, 07:56 PM
I don't think you'll find many hunters using round nosed FMJ's for the purpose, but it would be interesting to hear of any personal experiences.

Last year, I watched a buddy shoot a 130 lb hog 11 times with FMJ out of his Kimber 1911. Eventually, the hog died.

I was glad the hog wasn't armed and shooting at me all that time!!

mljdeckard
November 23, 2011, 08:04 PM
Hogs have a serious shoulder blade that is tough to penetrate. I wouldn't try it with a .45 at all, at least not on a big one. If I was carrying for defense against hogs, the pistol I would prefer would be a rifle. If I HAD to use a pistol, I would try to have a 10mm with hard cast loads.

orionengnr
November 23, 2011, 08:44 PM
I am surprised by the outcome of this thread.

I guess I am in the minority. I carry with JHP, because my 1911s work fine with any ammo (including my SWC hand loads). If they didn't, I'd do the same as I do with any other piece of equipment--fix or sell them (with full disclosure, as I have in the past).
1911's not feeding JHP reliably is EXTREMELY common.
Not in my experience--"only" about 25 1911s in the last 25 years.
--I've had a few that wouldn't function properly (mostly FTRB) with any type of ammo. Usually extractor-related.
--I own a 10mm CBOB that had various issues, all of which have (I think/hope) finally been resolved.
--Persistent light primer strikes (two different EMPs).

I trust my 1911s to run with JHP ammo....because they have proven themselves to do so, and I see no reason not to take advantage of that fact.

Best regards, and Happy Thanksgiving,
Rich

amd6547
November 23, 2011, 09:06 PM
I have had good luck shooting JHP in my 1911's. Even my Norinco shoots them with no problem.
However, when I was considering getting a Rock Island compact, my research found that some handled JHP's...some didn't...but they could be sent in to the manufacturer to be massaged into using them...for a price.
I bought the Glock 30, instead, which feeds anything out of the box.
While my SD pistols are loaded with JHP for carry, I often carry a reload mag of FMJ.

easyg
November 23, 2011, 10:06 PM
The only good reason to carry FMJ instread of hollow-points is because your pistol will not operate with hollow-points.

Personally, I would refuse to carry any pistol that will not operate with hollow-points.



Worse case scenario: the hollow-points fail to expand and the rounds perform as a FMJ.

Best case scenario: the hollow-points expand as designed and the rounds cause more damage to the target that a FMJ would.

Super Sneaky Steve
November 23, 2011, 10:20 PM
I didn't read the whole eight pages but I carry my round nosed plated handloads when I carry my 1911. I don't think it really matters with a .45.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 23, 2011, 10:43 PM
I didn't read the whole eight pages but I carry my round nosed plated handloads when I carry my 1911. I don't think it really matters with a .45.

9mm FMJ does more damage than .45 ACP FMJ according to the gel test I posted a bit back. It matters more with .45 ACP than 9mm.

Ken Rainey
November 23, 2011, 11:06 PM
"9mm FMJ does more damage than .45 ACP FMJ according to the gel test I posted a bit back. It matters more with .45 ACP than 9mm."

...but remember that is just gel...the heavier bullets (.45s) fair better when there are bones in the mix...

...lots of "issues" that can come into play with handgun bullets and defensive use with them that'll make one better in this situation and another better in another situation, thing is, you'll never know exactly what that situation will be...bottom line, it's shot placement with adequate penetration - choose your ammunition to suit yourself - but all things considered, the .45 230 FMJ isn't a bad choice especially when launched from a 1911 style pistol...;)

ChCx2744
November 23, 2011, 11:28 PM
I've heard from various 1911 owners (I'm not a 1911 owner myself) that FMJ feeds the most reliably in 1911s. I also don't see a problem with the big, fat .45ACP round having too much trouble stopping people with FMJ ammo. Carry ball ammo at will.

willypete
November 24, 2011, 09:52 PM
FMJ feeds the most reliably in 1911s

How much more reliable than 100% do you want to get? If I shoot 200 WWB 230 grain FMJs with zero failures, then shoot 200 Remington GS 230 grain BJHPs with zero failures, they're both as reliable as the other. The HP also happens to perform better against an adversary than the FMJ round.

jr_roosa
November 24, 2011, 10:04 PM
I carry some now but only because I need to function test some Hornady xtps and I've been busy.

mljdeckard
November 25, 2011, 03:04 AM
Today I rounded up a lot of odds and ends, loose rounds, partial boxes, old HSTs, old WWB FMJ, and shot several mags of mixed loads. Clarification, I shot some of them, I gave the rest of them to my wife to shoot a 1911 for the first time ever. Nary a hiccup.

Prosser
November 25, 2011, 07:39 AM
I do tend to have gunsmiths check my 1911's before I shoot them. Usually because I want the springs setup differently, and the ramp checked. Both Kimbers had machine marks in the feed ramp that needed removing. Might have worked fine with them, but didn't see a reason for the wasted time and frustration.

I've had more problems with Kimber parts, extractors, MIM safties, and slide stops, and cheap magazines that flare out at the top so much they lock in place in the gun, and have to be pounded out.

My point is it's who makes the gun, what parts they put in it, and how well its put together.

New ammunition hasn't been a problem. The 1000 rounds of 230 grain lead hard cast
ball ammo I just had loaded I hope won't be, either.

jackpinesavages
November 25, 2011, 09:06 AM
Here's my point, made for me in the last 8 pages: what do you train with?

Most everyone who picks HPs has stated they "carry" HPs. Fine, but if you're training with xx brand 230gr. ball realize that it's POI may be different than the hot 1XX gr. JHP you are taking to carry.

Training ammo. for head shots. Make your headshots. Carry what you train with.

mljdeckard
November 25, 2011, 10:27 AM
I have found that as long as the weight is the same, the difference is negligible, if noticeable at all. I always use 230 gr.

thorazine
November 25, 2011, 05:25 PM
I don't expect miracle expansion with JHP's at standard velocities, so FMJ's and their reliability and superior pentration is a good enough choice, in my opinion.

A JHP that might expand is better than a FMJ that will never expand. =P

For everything else just carry a CCW grenade.

Prosser
November 25, 2011, 05:34 PM
I carry HP's as well. With another clip full of ball ammo. You never know...

I think I'm going to spring for a box or two of the 255 grain Buffalobore hard cast, in .45 Super...

KodiakBeer
November 25, 2011, 06:09 PM
A JHP that might expand is better than a FMJ that will never expand. =P


This!

I've only killed one deer with a handgun and that was with a 45 acp 165 grain Hydra-Shok - the Federal Reduced Recoil offering. One deer is just an anecdote and doesn't prove anything. BUT, I happened to have a Kimber compact in my pack as a "coop-de-grassy" pistol while blackpowder hunting. I shot at a blacktail buck with my Hawken (missed, but I didn't know it then) who ran a little ways and then stopped about 75 yards away. I dug out my .45 and took a shot and hit him broadside right behind the shoulder - perfect hit. He went down right there. His head came up, but by the time I reached him he was dead. Blacktails are smallish deer, but the bullet had pierced a rib, crossed the chest and stopped under the hide on the far side. The slug had expanded perfectly, though I no longer recall what the exact size was. The shot pretty much destroyed both lungs.

I only mention this as anecdote because one kill is just one kill. Still, I don't think an FMJ would have collapsed that deer like this Hydra-Shok did. If the Hydra-Shok had failed to expand, it would have been no worse than an FMJ.

I'm going to carry hollow points in my defense pistols, no matter the caliber.

Lone_Gunman
November 25, 2011, 10:04 PM
I am curious, after 8 pages of discussion, has anyone changed their mind?

I know I haven't. I am still gonna carry FMJ.

Prosser
November 25, 2011, 11:18 PM
I'm really leaning towards coming up with a Cast LFN load, maybe 200 grains, at 1200 fps.
If I can find the bullets hard enough, and cheap enough, I can afford to shoot what I practice with, something I enjoyed about the early 80's and cheap speer hollow points.

My discussion with my gunsmith, and his comments about even 250 grain soft lead bullets turning off path surprised me. Since it's impractical to go much past 255-260 grains in the .45 ACP/ Detonics, I have to look at another way to get straight penetration, and accuracy. Bullet design and velocity will create a wound channel as well as expanding bullets. I can't make up my mind if 1300-1350 fps with a 185 grain
LFN or 200 grains LFN at 1200 fps is the way to go. The lighter bullet has a better chance of deforming, and becoming an expanding bullet. With that light a bullet, I don't know if thats a good thing or not. 200 grains at 1200 fps I would think would expand, if it hit's something like bone, while still having plenty of energy.

Have to do more research.

Ken Rainey
November 25, 2011, 11:52 PM
Those loads sound awfully stout...are any of those loads controllable for fast followup shots? ... especially if shooting one handed? ...

Prosser
November 26, 2011, 12:05 AM
Recoil out of a full sized Kimber:

45 Super 185 1300 694
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 17 fps.
45 Super 200 1200 639
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 17 fps.
45 Super 230 1100 617
Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.

Your average 9MM recoils in the 6 ft-lb range, and in a full sized 1911,
.45 ACP plus P, 230 grains at 950 fps:

Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 15 fps.

So, you add about 20-25% in recoil going to 45 Super.
Does that affect your second shots? Sure, the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP is about the same jump. Never timed it, but it never bothered me much.

BeerSleeper
November 26, 2011, 08:11 AM
I am curious, after 8 pages of discussion, has anyone changed their mind?
No. Ammo selection, terminal ballistics, caliber choices, and glock opinions are all religious matters. The best you can hope for is to be listened to courteously, no one's going to change their mind, and they're all going to their same old respective house of worship next coming sunday.

Japle
November 26, 2011, 11:39 AM
Here’s what three loads look like before and after.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/FMJvsJHP.jpg

The hardball load didn’t require any “after” example. We all know it’s going to look the same.

The middle round is a 230 gr XTP that went through a hog. It was loaded (by me) to an inadequate velocity and didn’t expand worth a whoop.

The right-hand round is a 185 gr Remington JHP loaded pretty hot. It also went through a hog and expanded to .75”.

I don’t think any commentary is required.

SharpsDressedMan
November 26, 2011, 11:49 AM
COMMENT (anyway).:neener: What about the need for penetration? Which one will penetrate deepest? If life were about uninterrupted bullet paths, then the expanding bullet would be the best. But, shootings are like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are going to get. And if you need to shoot THROUGH something, then the hardball might be the best. Compromise, anyone?

Japle
November 26, 2011, 01:23 PM
Posted by SDM:
What about the need for penetration? Which one will penetrate deepest? If life were about uninterrupted bullet paths, then the expanding bullet would be the best. But, shootings are like a box of chocolates: you never know what you are going to get. And if you need to shoot THROUGH something, then the hardball might be the best. Compromise, anyone?

Are you saying FMJ is a compromise bullet? Is using the bullet that will give the deepest penetration without any expansion a compromise?

If I have a bullet that will penetrate through 13" of hog torso, expand to .75" and stop under the hide on the other side, is that better or worse than a bullet that penetrates 13 1/2" of hog torso, and doesn't expand at all?

mljdeckard
November 26, 2011, 01:23 PM
No. Any premium JHP load is highly likely to penetrate at least 12" in ballistic gel. Whether it expands or not. Bullets with higher mass tend to penetrate further.

SharpsDressedMan
November 26, 2011, 04:43 PM
Bullets that do not expand tend to penetrate deeper. What one is willing to settle for might give the answer as to what type of bullet, bullet weight, and how much pentration is needed for each of us.

willypete
November 26, 2011, 09:12 PM
Japle, just for my own curiosity and handloading knowledge, how fast/slow were the HP bullets going?

jmstevens2
November 26, 2011, 10:11 PM
Here's my point, made for me in the last 8 pages: what do you train with?

Most everyone who picks HPs has stated they "carry" HPs. Fine, but if you're training with xx brand 230gr. ball realize that it's POI may be different than the hot 1XX gr. JHP you are taking to carry.

Training ammo. for head shots. Make your headshots. Carry what you train with.
Good reason to use Speer Gold dot to carry (after assuring it likes them) and training with Lawman (designed to be training ammo for the Gold Dots).

I don't know of any others that do this.

jackpinesavages
November 26, 2011, 11:41 PM
Interesting, thanks Jm....

jmstevens2
November 26, 2011, 11:46 PM
I am told they designed it so that the PDs could have training ammo much cheaper than duty ammo and have the same POA. Hence the name Lawman.

KungFuNerd
November 27, 2011, 12:15 AM
My mind isn't "changed".
My 1911 is ACCURATE and 100% reliable with FMJ.

As soon as I can confirm reliability with JHP I'll switch.
I just bought 100 rounds of cheap JHP to test out.

The NEXT question is "do you need fancy self defense ammo or is run of the mill JHP adequate"

Lucky Derby
November 27, 2011, 11:03 AM
9 pages now.
I personally use WWB JHP in .45 ACP. Why? Because I can afford enough of it to ensure that it will function reliably.
If it wasn't available, I would carry FMJ, and not loose any sleep over it.

Japle
November 27, 2011, 11:06 AM
Willypete:

The 230 gr XTP was clocked at 860 fps out of my S&W 625JM.

The 185 gr Remington JHP was loaded to 1057 in my XD45.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 27, 2011, 07:20 PM
As soon as I can confirm reliability with JHP I'll switch.

I actually do this myself, I only load a defensive gun with what I've already shot till I can run some JHP through it.

The NEXT question is "do you need fancy self defense ammo or is run of the mill JHP adequate"

I always forget the name but there is one (expensive) brand that expands in nearly all cases where alot of other brands get clogged up. IMO it doesn't really matter with most brands. I myself just carry cheap Remington JHP.

jmstevens2
November 28, 2011, 12:59 AM
Do you mean the Hornaday Critical Defense rounds? The hollowpoint is filled with a plastic to prevent it from clogging up with clothing and such.

BeerSleeper
November 28, 2011, 07:32 AM
I never understood the concept of "fill it up with stuff to keep it from filling up with stuff".

It just seems like a "you can't fire me, I quit" solution.

mavracer
November 28, 2011, 08:03 AM
The NEXT question is "do you need fancy self defense ammo or is run of the mill JHP adequate"
Only if you want them to expand more consistantly over a wider variety of medium. JHP's designed 25+ years ago don't expand reliably under 1000fps. Modern designs with their tapered jackets can control expansion so that they can expand easier without over-expanding and coming apart. Bonded jackets eliminates separation ensuring deep penatration.

weisse52
November 28, 2011, 10:58 AM
Very interesting thread...

I carry 230 FMJ in my 1911's and feel perfectly fine with my choice. Any other caliber and it is a hollow point. I do have a few boxes of Federal Hydra Shock and have at varies times carried with that. But I did not feel any better about carrying the hollow point.

The nice thing about a .45 is that I CAN choice a FMJ and still be confident in the round.

RevolvingGarbage
November 28, 2011, 11:30 AM
I keep PDX1 230gr JHP's in both my primary and secondary magazines for my 1911. My backup magazine I keep in the glovebox is a standard blued 7 rounder full of 1953 USGI 230gr FMJ. If I am into a fight 16 rounds and still need more, I feel like those last 7 had better be deep penetrating.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 28, 2011, 11:50 AM
Do you mean the Hornaday Critical Defense rounds? The hollowpoint is filled with a plastic to prevent it from clogging up with clothing and such.

It's not TAP. Surprisingly, TAP was one of the brands that would get clogged by bone simulate.

KungFuNerd
November 28, 2011, 07:03 PM
So after adjusting the Extractor on my 1911 I went to Walmart and bought 200 rounds of Remington UMC JHP (cheap).
I shot all of it except for 17 rounds (to fill up my carry mags+1)

Worked flawlessly in both mags.
I know these aren't great JHP....But I'm not buying 200 rounds of Golden Saber (my 9mm carry)

Prosser
November 29, 2011, 02:35 AM
I can see it at the meetings between the head of the ammo companies:

"Guys. I've got this great idea on how to sell lead at gold prices. It's called the hollow point..."

USSR
November 29, 2011, 06:52 AM
I can see it at the meetings between the head of the ammo companies:

"Guys. I've got this great idea on how to sell lead at gold prices. It's called the hollow point..."

That will only work because some guys are too d@mn lazy to make their own.;)

Don

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTz6VtBo1AY70LOcCL9r4Z0hIJhcQ2zxx6FnG1Ux9Twj_KGZUVu

LCPor9mm
December 1, 2011, 08:10 AM
I never understood the concept of "fill it up with stuff to keep it from filling up with stuff".

Yeah, me too. I mean if the hollow point is designed to "catch" material to expand, why would it matter what that material was?

David E
December 1, 2011, 12:28 PM
I mean if the hollow point is designed to "catch" material to expand, why would it matter what that material was?

Because it does. Not all material acts the same. Would you expect water and drywall to have the same effect on the hollowpoint? If you do, then you might want to test your theory first.

Hornady's Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo addresses the issue pretty well. The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself and acts upon the bullet in a fairly consistent manner regardless of what material it encounters. Standard hollowpoints typically do not.

45crittergitter
December 1, 2011, 06:42 PM
Still can't think of a single reason to use the least effective ammo type available....

Japle
December 1, 2011, 07:42 PM
I was just looking through Jim Cirillo's book, "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights". He was involved in 17 gunfights and attended quite a few autopsies.

His words: "The forensic experts I have questioned while attending many post-mortem examinations stated that they couldn't tell the difference between a .32 caliber round-nose bullet and a .45 round-nose if both had passed through the body, since both make only a small wound channel as they pass through tissue."

The smooth .45 hardball round doesn't make a .45 caliber hole. Living tissue is flexible. The bullet pushes the tissue out of the way, slips through and the tissue returns to its previous shape, minus the damage done in the center of the bullet's path.

Last year, a buddy shot a 130 lb hog 11 times with factory hardball before it went down. When we dressed the hog, the bullet holes looked like they'd been made with an ice pick.

LCPor9mm
December 1, 2011, 07:45 PM
Would you expect water and drywall to have the same effect on the hollowpoint? If you do, then you might want to test your theory first.
I don't recall being confused about what would happen with drywall or water.
What I don't understand is how a tee shirt would "clog-up" a hollow point and stop it from expanding.

The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself

Thank you for that. I can see how, while trying to punch through several layers of leather jacket, the point might collapse in on itself. I have never once heard it described in this way, and that sounds much more reasonable to me than the point being plugged up with stuff.

iron horse
December 2, 2011, 07:04 AM
"....so FMJ's and their reliability and superior pentration is a good enough choice, in my opinion. Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?"

No. Any potiental edge I can get I will take. In my Colt 1991A1s I do not compromise 100% reliablity with JHPs. They have feed and ejected everything for over a decade of use.

David E
December 2, 2011, 10:58 AM
I don't recall being confused about what would happen with drywall or water.
What I don't understand is how a tee shirt would "clog-up" a hollow point and stop it from expanding.

With all due respect, I don't know what particulars you are/were confused about.

I didn't see a mention of a t-shirt clogging up a hollowpoint. Indeed, it very likely would not inhibit expansion at all. But what if the t-shirt was the 4th or 5th layer encountered? It's getting colder, so folks, including bad guys, are wearing a t-shirt, flannel shirt, sweater, polar fleece vest and a winter coat. These layers would typically plug up most JHP's and prevent or seriously inhibit their expansion.

My drywall/water example illustrates how two different mediums have two very different effects in the same bullet. Obviously, you can't choose the ideal situation or barriers, so you therefore are subject to chance on bullet expansion.

Why fill the JHP with a polymer plug that's been exhaustively researched and tested? Because the plug is a constant, engineered to behave the same way, regardless of obstacles encountered.

LCPor9mm
December 2, 2011, 05:57 PM
What I said was I was always confussed about putting stuff in a hollow point bullet to keep it from cloging up with stuff. The drywall/water examples are yours, I didn't bring them up you did.
The very design of a HOLLOW point suggests to me that it fill up with stuff in order to expand. Are you with me so far?
When people, you for example, say clothing "plugs up" a hollow point that sounds to me like exactly what should happen in order for the hollow point to expand. These layers would typically plug up most JHP's and prevent or seriously inhibit their expansion.

When people, you for example, say something like The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself

That makes much more sense to me as it suggests an entirely different senario, that does not involve plugging up, but rather covering over the hollow point. I can invision the heavy clothing wrapping around the hollow point preventing it from opening.
It's a simple difference in terminology, but one builds the right image for me.
Do you understand?

PS: I am a native Floridian, (thus the T shirt reference) we don't wear long pants most of the time, so all this layering stuff is a bit unusual to us.

mavracer
December 2, 2011, 06:40 PM
The very design of a HOLLOW point suggests to me that it fill up with stuff in order to expand. Are you with me so far?
Some "stuff" is more dense than other "stuff". How dence it is can affect expansion. Bullet makers try to make bullets expand over a wide range of stuff. By using stuff with a consistantly dense they can better control expansion.

IkenI
December 3, 2011, 10:01 AM
I carried a 1911 for 20 years. If I carried a 1911 today I would use 230gr ball. That's one reason why I carry a SIG P220 with Ranger T.

willypete
December 3, 2011, 01:05 PM
I carried a 1911 for 20 years. If I carried a 1911 today I would use 230gr ball. That's one reason why I carry a SIG P220 with Ranger T.

You carry a SIG P220 with Ranger T because you carried a 1911 for 20 years, or because you'd carry a 1911 with ball ammo if you carried a 1911 today?

Huh?

David E
December 3, 2011, 06:50 PM
That makes much more sense to me as it suggests an entirely different senario, that does not involve plugging up, but rather covering over the hollow point. I can invision (SP) the heavy clothing wrapping around the hollow point preventing it from opening.

I don't know how you can "invision" that if you had even a basic understanding of how bullets behave when they hit things like, for example, heavy clothing. The clothing won't "wrap around the bullet preventing it from opening," the hollow point will simply act like a cookie cutter punching out little discs of clothing that collect inside the hollow point as the bullet perforates each layer. Enough layers and the hollow point gets filled up before encountering flesh, in which it was designed to expand. So filled, the fluid dynamics required by the HP for proper expansion are affected.

Can you "invision" that?

The poly plug prevents the HP from getting filled up with the wrong stuff needed for proper expansion.

Do you understand?

It's a simple difference in terminology
.

not even close.

JohnhenrySTL
December 3, 2011, 11:05 PM
I sometimes carry a CZ-82. I load it with fmjs. I grabbed it the other night when the cops were chasing somebody through my yard. I wasnt concerned about hps or fmjs. I have shot that gun enough to know it would be fine. Fmjs have killed more people than jhps. I have also read that fmjs are better for defense in 9x18 anyway. The article claimed fmjs in 9x18, do more damage in balistic geletin. Anyway, my other more modern handguns are loaded with jhps. I wouldnt wanna get hit byy any .45, no matter what.

IkenI
December 4, 2011, 12:22 AM
I carried a 1911 for 20 years because I had to. I then carried a SIG because I had to. I now carry a SIG with Ranger T because I want to. If....I had to carry a 1911, it would be with ball.

mljdeckard
December 4, 2011, 12:27 AM
I've said already, but I'll repeat it, I think that the Hornady CD is a gimmick. Not necessarily bad defensive ammo, but I don't think it is any more or less likely to expand through clothing than any other defensive ammo. I intend to buy some soon to test this.

David E
December 4, 2011, 12:42 AM
I've said already, but I'll repeat it, I think that the Hornady CD is a gimmick. Not necessarily bad defensive ammo, but I don't think it is any more or less likely to expand through clothing than any other defensive ammo. I intend to buy some soon to test this.

Knock yourself out.

Guns and Ammo TV just rebroadcast the segment highlighting Hornady's new Critical Duty ammo in ballistic gelatin penetrating such things as drywall, sheet metal, plywood, heavy clothing, glass, etc (IE; the FBI testing protocols) and it performed very consistently.

But I'm sure your testing will be much more in depth....

mljdeckard
December 4, 2011, 01:30 AM
It's not penetration I am mocking. It's whether or not it is more or less likely than any other defensive round to expand or fail to expand through thick clothing. They say it is a common problem, I don't think it is. And if it is, I don't think their little plug solves it.

David E
December 4, 2011, 01:41 AM
We look forward to seeing the results of your exhaustive tests.

mljdeckard
December 4, 2011, 01:44 AM
I doubt that.

David E
December 4, 2011, 10:25 AM
I doubt that.

I suppose that depends on you.

cwl1862
December 4, 2011, 08:35 PM
FMJ only if I have no JHP's. I Prefer Speer 230gr GDSB or Corbon 200gr JHP +P in my 45's. Speer 230's for my Kimber Ultra Carry II, and the Corbon 200gr +P's for either of my SIG 220's or my Colt Combat Elite.

LCPor9mm
December 5, 2011, 03:03 PM
David, You are right: I don't have a clear understanding of the dynamics involved when a hollow point goes through clothing and or flesh, however it appears you're not the authority you think you are either. If you were you wouldn't use terms like, and I quote
The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself and then say something like...
The clothing won't "wrap around the bullet preventing it from opening," the hollow point will simply act like a cookie cutter punching out little discs of clothing that collect inside
Now I may not be the rocket scientist you are, but even I can see those two statements are discribing two completely different actions.
I also don't spend a lot of time in the kitchen with cookie cutters, but your analogy of hollow points punching out little discs of clothing that collect inside doesn't make any sense if your statement "The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself" is to be taken as fact.

So if you would, open up one of your books and piece together some helpful, condescending remark that explains how a bullet "closes in on itself" while "filling up" with clothing.

LCPor9mm
December 5, 2011, 06:14 PM
In the interest of better understanding the SD ammo I have been carrying....

After an hour or two searching the internet for an explanation as to why hollow points don’t reliably expand. Here’s what I came up with:

Hollow points in the traditional sense rely on hydraulic pressure in the hollow cavity to expand. The designers have taken advantage of the fact that the human body is approximately 60% liquid. This expansion does not always take place if the cavity “fills up” with clothing because hydraulic pressure from the fluids in the body is required to “split” the bullet open. If the cavity is filled with enough clothing, the design pressures are not reached and the bullet doesn’t open.

The next type of “hollow point” isn’t really hollow at all. It has what Hornaday refers to as a flexible tip that compresses to open the cavity, preventing clogging and better controlling expansion by a means of what I like to call self contained hydraulics.

The last of the designs I came across was a design that appears to be a full metal jacket from the exterior, however the nose is designed to collapse against a core of some type of softer material. I believe this is the design of the Federal GuardDog.

I am not a bullet designer, so if you take issue with the basic concepts please feel free to correct me. I am not advocating the use of any particular design, just trying to explain in laymen’s terms what is available to those of us that don't already know everything.

SharpsDressedMan
December 5, 2011, 06:44 PM
This thread has been pretty interesting. Initially, I just wondered if there were any other stubborn, jaded guys like myself who, along the way, started to feel that getting too worked up over hollow point ammo in the .45 was a waste of time. The HP guys have made some good arguments, and others have supplied us with the latest info to base decisions on. For me, it boils down more to whether I feel any particular .45 I have will be RELIABLE with HP's. I think they do offer a "knockdown" advantage, meaning they would be slightly more effective than FMJ's, but for some guns (that I do not care to dump money into to throat, polish, or gunsmith in some other way) that I own, just using FMJ's is "adequate", as the .45 caliber is ahead of many other cartridges, "as-is". As we see, opinions vary, and to each their own, but for a few guns that I put into CCW rotation, FMJ's will do for the day. I will seriously exploit the use of HP's in guns that meet the "hollowpoint reliable" criteria. And, since I load, cost of ammuntion is not much of an issue, especially with practice ammo.

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