better home defense


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horsemen61
November 18, 2011, 04:38 PM
Which is better in your opinion a 12 gauge coach gun or say a short barrel rifle for home defense?
In my opinion I like a 12 gauge with buckshot what ever size you can handle with confidence.

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Skribs
November 18, 2011, 04:45 PM
I'm not trying to be a jerk or grammar nazi here, but I've seen several of your questions posted which include no capitalization, punctuation, or any input from yourself as to what you think of the issue or why you're asking the question. A little bit of effort would go a long way towards helping out.

Personally, of the two, I'd rather have an SBR, because a coach gun holds significantly less ammunition. However, I'd have to make sure the ammunition that I get would be viable when fired from a shorter barrel.

ColtPythonElite
November 18, 2011, 04:50 PM
As far a shotguns go, the coachgun might look cool in a cowboy flick, but is hardly my choice for HD.

I can't answer for you for a SBR. IMO, that depends on what you are protecting. My home has smaller rooms, plus close neighbors. I don't need/want a rifle.

As far a long guns go, a basic 12 gauge pump is hard to beat.

ErikO
November 18, 2011, 04:52 PM
1st off, I'd look into a big, loud, friendly dog. Beyond that, a 12ga or 20ga shotgun may be your best bet due to the options in ammo that you have.

MtnCreek
November 18, 2011, 04:57 PM
Do you own either? Coach gun is pretty strait forward; SBR (visioning an AR) is a little more complicated and would be more prone to malfunction. The SBR will also require a waiting period till the background/paperwork goes through, if you don’t already have one. If you have and are proficient with both, I would opt for the SBR.

Skribs, I used a semicolon.:cool:

AK_Maine_iac
November 18, 2011, 05:03 PM
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php

:what: My jury is still out on rather i like it or not.

rcmodel
November 18, 2011, 05:09 PM
Get a 12 ga pump gun for HD readyness.

Unlike the hammerless S/S double, it is safe to leave setting around with an empty chamber and a full magazine tube.

Cocked & loaded double guns are dangerous to everyone when left loaded & unattended all the time.

rc

Noah
November 18, 2011, 05:15 PM
Agreed, the whole double barreled shotgun is just a thing a select few companies market just because they know some new gun owners will buy one for $300+++... As for rifles and home defense, it is my personal opinion that a bolt action, AK, AR-15, Semi auto, any rifle really, is a bad home defense weapon. It is my personal opinion that any situation that a rifle's range is an advantage is a situation that won't go well for the rifle owner in court, and that a rifle in a home is a pointless waste of replacement drywall, windows, and bricks, if you take my meaning.

As for a pistol, if you want to CCW, a good compact Glock or anything similar could work as a carry and bedside gun, and pistols are fun to shoot. Ammo and the guns themselves are kind of pricey, according to my standards, anyway.

It is my personal opinion the #1 choice for a home defense gun is a basic Maverick/Mossberg/Remington/H&R/Savage/Weatherby/Stoeger/Ithaca/Benelli/Insert Brand Here pump, long or short barreled, depending on if you want to hunt, or a combo, and less than $300, if not less than $200. Any pump shotgun will work, based on budget and personal preference, so long as you know how to use it. Which means take it to the range, or your country backyard if you're lucky like me, and just blast some rotten fruit and old electronics and cardboard boxes and hunks of plywood and other junk with your choice of HD ammo every few days if possible, be it #4 Buck, 00 Buck, whatever. Practice with slugs as well, and mostly practice with Birdshot 'cuz it's cheap and has less recoil, but it still does fun things to old pumpkins.

Don't fall for expensive gimmick ammo or guns, like (IMO) pistol grip shotguns, or the whole coach gun thing. A pump is much, much better and cheaper. That's not to say that the (I'm assuming) Stoeger coachgun is a bad gun, but it is an overpriced marketing ploy for new HD gun owners, I believe.


"1st off, I'd look into a big, loud, friendly dog." I love dogs even more than I love guns.

M2 Carbine
November 18, 2011, 05:22 PM
Which gun you choose/need depends on your own HD situation.

Although I keep several loaded 12 ga pump shotguns handy, a couple M4 size AR rifles serve me better.

As far as the coach gun? I like the double barrel hammer gun and would keep it loaded somewhere around the house but given a choice my first shotgun pick is a 18-20 inch pump.

ATBackPackin
November 18, 2011, 05:29 PM
Out of those two I would take the SBR because while I may not need more than two rounds, I sure as hell would want more. With that being said there are much better choices than both. I prefer either a shotgun or full size handgun for home defense.

vellocet
November 18, 2011, 06:49 PM
Get a pump 12. Geez.

Bmac1949
November 18, 2011, 07:20 PM
+1 on having a good dog. That will give me time to reach for my .870. But, the more important thing is what can you shoot well in a stressfull situation?

BSA1
November 18, 2011, 07:59 PM
I can tell you from first hand experience in my young LEO days that a double barrel shotgun does a great job quieting rowdy bars. I traded it off to deputy that was a friend and he had the darn thing nickel plated! Wish I had thought of that.

Leathermarshmallow
November 18, 2011, 08:39 PM
I own several shotguns. My first choice would be my Winchester 1300. But, I wouldn't feel undergunned in the middle of the night in my own home with the 18 1/2 inch barrelled 12 gauge coach gun. I feel comfortable shooting it, it is shorter than many other of my guns and thus, easier to maneuver in the house. It also has a great intimidation factor with those two great big gaping holes pointed at the chest of a potential bad guy. Not the best, but certainly not the worst choice either.

303tom
November 18, 2011, 09:16 PM
Shadow & my 97 Trench..........

Alex23
November 18, 2011, 09:27 PM
If you are serious, start with passive security. 7 lever deadbolt locks, window locks, alarm system, big dogs. That will deter the vast majority of burglars. In the unlikely event you are facing a true home invasion they buy you time to grab whatever is to hand. I favor a pistol as it is a defensive weapon and easy to wield. An M4gerie / AK / 18" shotgun in a genuine home invasion would be my last choice. They're eminently suitable if you are the one doing the B+E though (I imagine). ;)

Bartholomew Roberts
November 18, 2011, 09:48 PM
Not enough information to say. We don't know what kind of short barrel rifle you have in mind and we don't know what kind of skills you have (which is far more important than the weapon).

MachIVshooter
November 19, 2011, 07:30 PM
Inside the house? The shotgun. A rifle is more effective, but trust me, you don't want to touch off a 10"-14" barreled rifle in the confines of a house. You will suffer hearing loss. Shotguns can almost be tolerated without ear protection on an outdoor range; I've fired my 16" AR-10 in the field exactly one time without ear plugs, and don't ever care to repeat that experience.

Robert
November 19, 2011, 07:44 PM
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/fir...le_defense.php

My jury is still out on rather i like it or not.

And here I though Mossberg had the market cornered on mall ninja shotguns... Wow that is just terrible.

Bubba613
November 19, 2011, 07:46 PM
Handgun. It only takes one hand to operate one. Shotguns are OK barricade weapons but that's about it.
Rifle? Not unless it's a lever gun in a pistol caliber or you live out in nowhereville.

FMJMIKE
November 19, 2011, 08:06 PM
I prefer a M1 Carbine................:D
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/mbmphoto/WRA7A.jpg

Strykervet
November 19, 2011, 08:13 PM
I like the M4 carbine.

NG VI
November 19, 2011, 08:21 PM
that a rifle in a home is a pointless waste of replacement drywall, windows, and bricks, if you take my meaning.


Properly loaded rifles in the right type of chambering actually tend pass through targets and other barriers far less often than shotgun or pistol ammunition, and they are usually highly effective on top of that. I wouldn't want to touch off a short barreled 5.56mm rifle indoors, but an ordinary 18-20" wouldn't be bad enough to outweigh the enormous advantages a high velocity, low recoil rifle offers.

The thing about weapons that rely on velocity as a wounding mechanism, is that it's much easier for ammunition designers to limit penetration than it is for a weapon that must have high projectile mass to be effective. They also can be effective without excessive recoil, though the muzzle blast is higher.

But really nearly anything would be a good option for home defense, though I wouldn't bother with a rifle less than 16" in length, tax stamp, blast, and possibly flash are just too off-putting. And it loses some of the speed that makes them so effective despite their small projectiles. And makes proper ammunition selection somewhat harder, and in these weapons it is a serious consideration unless you live in the middle of BF Nowhere with no neighbors.

NG VI
November 19, 2011, 10:04 PM
More like .32 balls.

And the reduced recoil 8-pellet stuff has some very real advantages over 3" 12 pellet loads and full power 9-pellet loads, mainly better patterns and faster followup shots, which aren't automatically unnecessary just because it's a shotgun.

Vonderek
November 19, 2011, 10:41 PM
After clearing a dark house in the middle of the night with a 12GA, flashlight, an adrenaline dump and no clothes I choose none of the above and would rather have a handgun for home defense.

Onward Allusion
November 19, 2011, 11:00 PM
Vonderek
After clearing a dark house in the middle of the night with a 12GA, flashlight, an adrenaline dump and no clothes I choose none of the above and would rather have a handgun for home defense.

+1

A true SBR would be a good choice as well, however, I'm not sure if the OP was referring to a NFA weapon or just a rifle with a short(er) barrel (i.e. 16"). A decent caliber handgun definitely works better in close quarters where there are narrow hallways and corners.

ShotgunFanatic
November 19, 2011, 11:00 PM
Saiga 12 for me: 20 rnd drum mag loaded with 00 buckshot, cant beat it for defense.

CONNEX 3300
November 19, 2011, 11:32 PM
I don't know what SBR you have in mind. There are quite a few variations in the SBR options so it is difficult to give you an accurate answer.

Just using the choices you gave, I would go for the coachgun. Load it with 00 buck and keep a good flashlight handy.
But if possible I would rather use a short-barreled pump action 12 guage.

geologist
November 20, 2011, 01:17 AM
Between the 2 choices in the OP, I'd go with the coach gun.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/pbgeologist/3234363376_00ea44cee5_o.jpg

But I'd prefer a 14" pump.

kozak6
November 20, 2011, 01:26 AM
Of the two, I'd go with the coach gun simply because the SBR is a bad choice.

NFA weapons generally aren't recommended for defense purposes. In the events of a bad shoot, there's the risk of higher legal penalties. Also, the increased muzzle flash and blast are a problem for a firearm that may be discharged indoors at night.

A coach gun isn't exactly ideal, but it would hopefully prove adequate.

M2 Carbine
November 20, 2011, 09:47 AM
Whether it's a pistol, rifle or shotgun, I'll have a laser/light on it.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/870stockTLR2.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/PX4.jpg

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/M4withStreamlight.jpg

TexasRifleman
November 20, 2011, 09:53 AM
NFA weapons generally aren't recommended for defense purposes. In the events of a bad shoot, there's the risk of higher legal penalties

If it's a bad shoot, the gun type won't matter anyway. I'm not aware of any law that gives increased penalties for using an NFA firearm to commit murder vs any other type of firearm.

Who is it recommending against using NFA firearms for defense purposes and what are their qualifications to make such a recommendation?

What would be the argument for NOT using such a firearm other than the fact you might have it taken away for a while as evidence, same as with any other gun you might use to defend yourself?

This is one of these off the wall "gut feeling" things that comes up now and then but it really doesn't seem to have any merit. Sure there is always the chance that some prosecutor would argue that it matters, but it doesn't seem to have ever actually happened. The Harold Fish case is an often cited example of the gun type making a difference, but it seems to be the only one. That one was overturned anyway and wasn't in the home.

Bubba613
November 20, 2011, 04:02 PM
If it's a bad shoot, the gun type won't matter anyway. I'm not aware of any law that gives increased penalties for using an NFA firearm to commit murder vs any other type of firearm.
"And isn't it the case that you used a Federally-restricted Class III weapon to kill my client? Aren't Federally restricted Class III weapons like MACHINE GUNS limited because of their very lethality? And yet you saw no problem using one on my client because you wanted to KILL him, right?"

I'd hate to be the one on the receiving end of that line of questioning in a civil lawsuit. I'd rather be saying "yes your honor the man invaded my home and I grabbed my squirrel gun/dove gun/deer rifle and defended my family from certain death."

TexasRifleman
November 20, 2011, 04:08 PM
I'd hate to be the one on the receiving end of that line of questioning in a civil lawsuit. I'd rather be saying "yes your honor the man invaded my home and I grabbed my squirrel gun/dove gun/deer rifle and defended my family from certain death.

Unless you live in a state with civil immunity for lawful shoots in your home, of which there are plenty.

And again, you propose something that hasn't actually happened before. Anything CAN happen, do you make all your plans around the worst case outcome?

There are documented cases of lawful self defense with submachine guns without any of the doom and gloom you describe.

And we are not talking about machine-guns in this particular thread anyway, the OP specifically mentioned Short Barreled Rifles.

It's certainly a personal decision for everyone to make but if, for whatever reason, I felt that an NFA Short Barreled Rifle was the best solution for defense of my home (and I do by the way) the potential threat of some lawsuit wouldn't stop me from using the best tool for the job. If I and the firearm do our job right at the worst the family will be alive to see any lawsuits that come along.

Back when the Federal Assault Weapon law was still in place we saw people making the same arguments against using what were called, during the ban, "high capacity" magazines. "Oh, don't use a high capacity magazine in your defensive handgun, since some lawyer will argue that those are banned and must be extra dangerous". It didn't make any sense then either.

EvilGenius
November 20, 2011, 04:17 PM
I'm more of the shotgun camp.

But if you're not worried about over penetration and/or hearing loss.

I can see an SBR'd version of one of these.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/members/waterhead-albums-my-guns-picture5386-mini-draco.jpg

Or any off the shelf 7"-10" AR pistol.

Rob G
November 20, 2011, 04:20 PM
"And isn't it the case that you used a Federally-restricted Class III weapon to kill my client? Aren't Federally restricted Class III weapons like MACHINE GUNS limited because of their very lethality? And yet you saw no problem using one on my client because you wanted to KILL him, right?"


I don't remember the fellow's name but I recently read an article about the HK employee who killed a man in self defense with a full auto Ruger back in the early 80s. He said that during the trial the prosecutor repeatedly waved the gun in front of the jury and pointed out that it was a machinegun and this somehow made the defendant more guilty. Interestingly enough every time that happened the judge then reminded the jury that the type of weapon used was irrelevant, all that mattered was what the defendant may or may not have done with it.

As for that line of questioning, if it was me I'd wait a second to see if my lawyer objected to it ( a good one would ) and if required to answer I'd say: "I grabbed it because I wanted to stop the assailant from attacking me and that is the most effective tool I have for stopping someone." And I'd stop right there.

Bubba613
November 20, 2011, 05:09 PM
The criminal trial isn't an issue. It's the civil case where they get you. Standards of evidence are much different.
And you cannot take away someone's right to sue. You might have an affirmative defense in self defense. But the plaintiff can argue you used unnecessary force to stop the person. And in that case the plaintiff's lawyer will use anything he can to show you used unnecessary force.
I personally consider an SBR to be a bad choice, and someone who uses one without a really good explanation (which I can't presently imagine) has a presumption in my mind of using poor judgment.

hirundo82
November 20, 2011, 05:22 PM
Between the 2 choices in the OP, I'd go with the coach gun.

But I'd prefer a 14" pump.

This is one of the few advantages you Canucks have in terms of gun laws (import laws being another). With shotguns, we are limited to both 26" overall length and an 18" barrel, while I believe Canadian law is OK with factory guns with a barrel shorter than that as long as OAL is over 26".

Kendal Black
November 20, 2011, 05:42 PM
I think a shotgun is the best home defense firearm, but I don't think the double barrel is the best shotgun for the purpose. The repeaters, obviously, hold more shots. But some like the old double gun for its very simple operation and the shorter length of its receiver. The gun is shorter than a repeater of the same barrel length.

The cowboy action shooters reload the double gun rather quickly, and you oughta watch how they do it if you are determined to use this kind of arm for your house gun. F'rinstance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Go8gGzF90

TexasRifleman
November 20, 2011, 05:47 PM
The criminal trial isn't an issue. It's the civil case where they get you. Standards of evidence are much different.
And you cannot take away someone's right to sue. You might have an affirmative defense in self defense. But the plaintiff can argue you used unnecessary force to stop the person. And in that case the plaintiff's lawyer will use anything he can to show you used unnecessary force.
I personally consider an SBR to be a bad choice, and someone who uses one without a really good explanation (which I can't presently imagine) has a presumption in my mind of using poor judgment.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you still cannot show a case where an NFA weapon changed the outcome of a suit over a justified shooting. Anything is possible, but it does not appear to have ever actually happened, even in cases where full auto weapons were justifiably used. So how far down the fear of lawsuits path should one go? You are at risk of being sued if you shoot someone, no matter what you use. The risks are minimized very much in castle doctrine states.

If a person is that worried about it then no, they should not choose such a firearm for home defense.

If you want to argue straw men you can argue that an SBR is actually less deadly than a full sized rifle since you sacrifice some bullet velocity. Shooting someone with an 18 inch barrel is therefore unnecessary force compared to a rifle with an 11 inch barrel. You can spin anything you want in a courtroom, doesn't mean anyone will listen. If the objective is to stay out of a courtroom then a firearm should not be used at all. If the objective is to stay alive inside your own home then one should use whatever they decide is the best tool for the job.

In the case of the OP he has his own reasons for settling on these 2 choices I assume. Of the 2 an SBR would be much better than a coach gun if for no other reason than being limited to 2 rounds with the shotgun. Another benefit of the SBR is the ability to fit a suppressor and still retain a reasonable length of the rifle. Either of these guns fired inside a house is going to make a very very loud noise.

allaroundhunter
November 20, 2011, 05:55 PM
If I owned both, I would grab the SBR before the coach gun every time. More follow up shots, and less recoil (I'm thinking AR-based SBR here), and less overpenetration.

Also, my hearing is going to be a secondary consideration when my life is on the line, and I'm not too worried about being "disoriented" as some people are. In the heat of the moment, I honestly don't think that I would know the difference between a coach gun report and that of an SBR.

I would also rather fight a civil suit in court (should I have to) than pick a weapon with more drawbacks

Onward Allusion
November 20, 2011, 06:30 PM
Bubba613
The criminal trial isn't an issue. It's the civil case where they get you. Standards of evidence are much different.
And you cannot take away someone's right to sue. You might have an affirmative defense in self defense. But the plaintiff can argue you used unnecessary force to stop the person. And in that case the plaintiff's lawyer will use anything he can to show you used unnecessary force.
I personally consider an SBR to be a bad choice, and someone who uses one without a really good explanation (which I can't presently imagine) has a presumption in my mind of using poor judgment.

So if someone broke into my home, I should locate my most politically correct firearm in a decent caliber (which probably would be some kind of 38 revolver) rather than grabbing my 9mm that holds 20+1 rounds? If I'm interpreting your comment correctly, I should be more worried about the aftermath (i.e. civil suit) rather than surviving the attack???

EvilGenius
November 20, 2011, 07:20 PM
A lot of folks here keep referring to ARs because of a "reduced risk of over penetration."

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

According to the various tests here, the only 12 gauge round that could pose a risk of that is a 1oz slug.

The most common defense rounds only penetrate half as much as the most common pistol and riffle calibers.

:confused:

allaroundhunter
November 20, 2011, 07:55 PM
According to the various tests here, the only 12 gauge round that could pose a risk of that is a 1oz slug.

The most common defense rounds only penetrate half as much as the most common pistol and riffle calibers.

EvilGenius, the .223 round that they are referring to is M193 BALL ammo. That means FMJ, not an expanding, defensive round that those of us with AR's for HD keep our magazines loaded with.

An AR loaded with an expanding, varmint-type round will penetrate less than buckshot.

Here (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26) is one source (but no, buckshot is not tested by this group)

Here (http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html) is one source that includes 00 buck

hso
November 20, 2011, 07:59 PM
Any effective ammunition will penetrate more than 2 layers of drywall. The question then becomes whether to consider "over penetration" to be leaving the residence and entering another through the drywall, sheathing, siding, siding, sheathing, drywall of your house and the next.

A double barrel is not preferable to a pump of semi shotgun.

EvilGenius
November 20, 2011, 08:11 PM
EvilGenius, the .223 round that they are referring to is M193 BALL ammo. That means FMJ, not an expanding, defensive round that those of us with AR's for HD keep our magazines loaded with.

An AR loaded with an expanding, varmint-type round will penetrate less than buckshot.

Here (http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26) is one source (but no, buckshot is not tested by this group)

Here (http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html) is one source that includes 00 buck
I new they were using FMJ, but I didn't read anywhere that everyone in here with an AR had the sense to use HP or fragmentation rounds.

I wonder how the "reduced recoil" 00 buck compares. I seem to hear most PDs carry it now a days. Although I'm not sure that it translates to lower FPS.

NG VI
November 21, 2011, 10:41 AM
Reduced recoil buck will penetrate almost exactly the same as regular buck, because the projectile itself isn't changing and the speed isn't significantly lower. Unplated lead buck at 3000 feet per second would likely behave very differently from normal full power or reduced recoil buck at 1000-1600 feet per second.

EvilGenius
November 21, 2011, 11:11 AM
Reduced recoil buck will penetrate almost exactly the same as regular buck, because the projectile itself isn't changing and the speed isn't significantly lower. Unplated lead buck at 3000 feet per second would likely behave very differently from normal full power or reduced recoil buck at 1000-1600 feet per second.
Where does the 3000fps buck come from?

allaroundhunter
November 21, 2011, 11:36 AM
Where does the 3000fps buck come from?

I'm pretty sure he was just exaggerating to show the difference in velocity necessary to have a difference in penetration. His point was that unless you can get unreal velocities, penetration between all 00 buck loads will be very similar.

EvilGenius
November 21, 2011, 11:54 AM
I'm pretty sure he was just exaggerating to show the difference in velocity necessary to have a difference in penetration. His point was that unless you can get unreal velocities, penetration between all 00 buck loads will be very similar.
Ah, ok.

Gotta admit, I was pretty interested in a 3000fps shotgun.

EvilGenius
November 21, 2011, 11:58 AM
However, those varmint rounds don't penetrate very far, not even reaching the FBI recommended 12 in of penetration. They aren't meant for stopping humans. That's why I'd choose a shotgun over the AR; buckshot is meant to stop human size things.
Yeah, I guess the real lesson there is shot placement as far as what's behind the target.

Just about any round that has enough penetration to effectively stop a human will go through atleast two walls if not more.

Telekinesis
November 21, 2011, 12:15 PM
I'm not aware of any law that gives increased penalties for using an NFA firearm to commit murder vs any other type of firearm.

I'm not usually in the business of correcting Mods, but I would like to bring up something I found while looking at using a suppressor for home defense. This article (http://wcr.sonoma.edu/v08n2/44.clark/clark.pdf) from the Western Criminology Review is focused on suppressors, but includes an interesting citation that includes SBRs. It also provides citations of criminal cases where the statute was used to enhance punishment.

Whoever, during and in relation to any crime
of violence or drug trafficking crime (including
a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime
which provides for enhanced punishment if
committed by the use of a deadly weapon or device)
for which he may be prosecuted in a court
of the United States, uses or carries a firearm,
shall, in addition to the punishment provided for
such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime,
be sentenced to imprisonment for five years, and
if the firearm is a short-barreled rifle, short-barreled
shotgun to imprisonment for ten years, and
if the firearm is a machinegun, or a destructive
device, or is equipped with a firearm silencer or
firearm muffler, to imprisonment for thirty years
(emphasis added) (18 U.S.C. 924(c)(1)).

That being said, I don't recommend against using NFA weapons to defend the home. I think that they are some of the best weapons to use because of the easier maneuverability of SBRs and hearing/flash protection from suppressors. I however don't believe that using a machine gun is the best idea for defense, mainly because if/when it is taken into evidence, you loose possession of a VERY valuable firearm.

Now, I don't think these increased penalties for using NFA weapons in a crime should be a reason against using them in a HD situation, but I do believe that everyone who does should be aware of the possibility of increased penalties as a result of their misuse.

timhernandez
November 21, 2011, 12:15 PM
A Colt Officers' Model in .45 acp with a good flashlight...

After, the deadbolts, alarm, dog, security lights...

My back-up to the 45 is a Mossberg 500 with buckshot in the hands of a very adept son.

In my past, I have cleared houses, business, warehouses with both a pistol and a shotgun, prefer the pistol. If a pistol is out of the question, a shotgun with a proper load is next.

TexasRifleman
November 21, 2011, 12:19 PM
I'm not usually in the business of correcting Mods, but I would like to bring up something I found while looking at using a suppressor for home defense. This article from the Western Criminology Review is focused on suppressors, but includes an interesting citation that includes SBRs. It also provides citations of criminal cases where the statute was used to enhance punishment.

No, post away. Like I said, I've never seen one until you posted this. Always good to know this stuff.

dprice3844444
November 21, 2011, 12:27 PM
try to find a good inexpensive weapon that will get the job done,and you can afford to lose,and not care about.good used pistol,rem 870,or the short double bbl,which can also be used as a club.don't count the double out,it has been defending families since the 1800's.just put a leather cartridge holder on the buttstock.residential shootings are fast paced.12 gauge gets their attention real fast,drops them like flies.dead men tell no tales.on the double,they will never hear the safety dropped compared to racking an 870.any perp,in his right mind,after hearing a racking pump,that doesn't run like hell,deserves to be toasted.

Hunter 35
November 21, 2011, 12:58 PM
I haven't seen anyone reply with the Taurus Judge (maybe it's not as good as I think for SD) But I have the new 7 shot judge loaded with 4 three inch buck shot and 3 45 colt to back them up. At close range 20 feet or less I think these should be effective.....:banghead:

EvilGenius
November 21, 2011, 01:03 PM
I haven't seen anyone reply with the Taurus Judge (maybe it's not as good as I think for SD) But I have the new 7 shot judge loaded with 4 three inch buck shot and 3 45 colt to back them up. At close range 20 feet or less I think these should be effective.....:banghead:

Might work.

I was interested for a while, but read some tests and watche videos. It seems most of the shot shells (even the ones specifically designed for it) don't have adequate power, penetration or accuracy due to the short barrel. About the only round I'd trust my life with in it would be the .45 colt.

Kevin Rohrer
November 21, 2011, 01:07 PM
If the gun is for home defense and you are rightfully concerned about over-penetration into other rooms, a decent pump-shotgun filled w/ birdshot is the ticket. Birdshot stays together in one column out to 7-yards or so and individual pellets don't have the mass to penetrate past walls, unless they are thin.

IM391
November 21, 2011, 01:26 PM
It depends on how you care to defend your home. A shotgun is the best defense in a barracade. I would not use it or a coach gun to investigate a break in. They are too awkward. On the other hand, even a trap load of 8s is deadly at 10 feet and wall pentatration is minimal.

allaroundhunter
November 21, 2011, 01:47 PM
Ah, ok.

Gotta admit, I was pretty interested in a 3000fps shotgun.

I would love to be wrong haha, a 3,000 fps buckshot load would be quite potent

allaroundhunter
November 21, 2011, 01:52 PM
However, those varmint rounds don't penetrate very far, not even reaching the FBI recommended 12 in of penetration. They aren't meant for stopping humans. That's why I'd choose a shotgun over the AR; buckshot is meant to stop human size things.

While penetration is a key factor for handgun rounds, high velocity rifle rounds also cause trauma damage by the large amounts of energy that they dump into a target. I'm not saying that a rifle round that penetrates two inches will kill easily, but a .223 round that penetrates 10" can still do considerably more damage than a .45 ACP that penetrates 14"

NG VI
November 21, 2011, 03:03 PM
I'm pretty sure he was just exaggerating to show the difference in velocity necessary to have a difference in penetration. His point was that unless you can get unreal velocities, penetration between all 00 buck loads will be very similar.

Yep, what I was saying is that buckshot's all going to perform the same because none of it is going faster to the point that it'll behave differently than slower buck. Reduced recoil buck will penetrate building materials about exactly the same as full power buck, even though one is a bit faster than the other.

They're both in the same velocity class, both constructed close enough to the same, shaped the same way, and so they'll both do the same things to targets.

Josh45
November 21, 2011, 03:08 PM
A 12 gauge pump shotgun with a 18 1/2 - 20' BBL....

NG VI
November 21, 2011, 03:12 PM
My concern is in getting through things such as ribs and sternum. Also, what about arms? What if the shot goes in at an awkward angle so instead of getting a flat chest hit, the bullet's go to go at a slant from the shoulder? Hydrostatic Shock isn't exactly a proven killer.


With rifles it can be. Those rounds will turn bone into secondary projectiles, in addition to the bullet fragments. Any firearm can be used to land a less than perfect hit on a target, which is why the ease and speed of followup shots from an intermediate-caliber rifle is such a big advantage to those platforms. And they tend to cause enough tissue destruction that your attacker may lose some ability to fight back even with a poor hit.

If the person is using a blunt instrument like a bat for instance, they will almost certainly have a harder time delivering effective attacks against you if their shoulder structures have been partially pulped. In the 1986 Miami shootout, at least one of the FBI agents was hit in the arm with a 55 grain .223 bullet, not an ideal hit by any means, but it completely destroyed the agent's forearm, undeniably making it harder for him to fight effectively.

Personally I'm ok with a little less penetration out of a high-velocity rifle compared to a handgun, it's kind of the nature of the beast anyway, and they are effective for it.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 21, 2011, 03:21 PM
Unlike the hammerless S/S double, it is safe to leave setting around with an empty chamber and a full magazine tube.

I just chamber/safe my shotguns.



Reduced recoil buck will penetrate almost exactly the same as regular buck, because the projectile itself isn't changing and the speed isn't significantly lower. Unplated lead buck at 3000 feet per second would likely behave very differently from normal full power or reduced recoil buck at 1000-1600 feet per second.

Is there even such thing as 3000 FPS Buckshot?

EvilGenius
November 21, 2011, 03:31 PM
Is there even such thing as 3000 FPS Buckshot?

We wish...

KodiakBeer
November 21, 2011, 03:53 PM
My primary home defense is a coach gun. I don't feel undergunned at all having only two shots because I know that each of those shots (if properly placed) will absolutely stop an attacker. I also suspect that if you timed the first four shots, with a reload of two shells between the fingers of your off hand, that the speed would about the same as the first four shots of a pump gun.

Anyway, I've got a pretty good arsenal of weapons available to me that include all of the suggestions above, but in the dark, at close range, the coach gun is my choice.

I know this will start an argum... er, debate, but I also think having a light on your weapon is the same as having a huge neon sign saying "shoot here". I don't want a home invader to know where I'm at until a load of buckshot strikes his chest.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 21, 2011, 10:08 PM
We wish...

I don't! :eek:

allaroundhunter
November 22, 2011, 02:07 AM
Hydrostatic Shock isn't exactly a proven killer.

The hydrostatic shock caused by high velocity rifle rounds has been proven to stop a threat (or an animal) more effectively than most handgun rounds. The large wound channels caused by rifles on deer are due to this shock causing tissue that isn't even touched by the bullet to tear, and they do the same to a human body.

Also, the ribs and sternum are so close to the skin that a varmint type round would instantly turn them into dangerous pieces of debris to go along with the bullet. This means that even though the penetration for a shot through bone might be less, it can still be just as (if not more) lethal.

PaulKersey3
November 22, 2011, 02:26 AM
Neither, get a pump. The racking sound al

PaulKersey3
November 22, 2011, 02:28 AM
Neither, get a pump. The racking sound alone will decrease your chances of having to fire it in defense.

allaroundhunter
November 22, 2011, 02:53 AM
Neither, get a pump. The racking sound alone will decrease your chances of having to fire it in defense

Another one of these.......

Others can have different opinions, but I will not give any warnings as to whether I am armed to an intruder. The only warning they *may* get is that the police are on the way and that they need to leave immediately.

I'm not going to compromise my location, because that element of surprise can mean the difference between life and death.

Bubba613
November 22, 2011, 09:05 AM
Others can have different opinions, but I will not give any warnings as to whether I am armed to an intruder. The only warning they *may* get is that the police are on the way and that they need to leave immediately.

I'm not going to compromise my location, because that element of surprise can mean the difference between life and death.
The idea of course is not to ambush and kill the intruder. The idea is to stop the attack. Racking the slide tells the intruder you are, awake, armed, aware of his presence. Given the walls etc I dont think your position could be pinpointed. You can also move.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 22, 2011, 11:17 AM
Neither, get a pump. The racking sound alone will decrease your chances of having to fire it in defense.

I always figured the guy wouldn't hear it because of his ear drums being blown or he was dead when I owned a pump. Chambered is the way to go.

Boo-Radley
November 22, 2011, 12:02 PM
Which is better in your opinion a 12 gauge coach gun or say a short barrel rifle for home defense?
In my opinion I like a 12 gauge with buckshot what ever size you can handle with confidence.
[ /close thread ]

allaroundhunter
November 22, 2011, 01:54 PM
The idea of course is not to ambush and kill the intruder. The idea is to stop the attack. Racking the slide tells the intruder you are, awake, armed, aware of his presence. Given the walls etc I dont think your position could be pinpointed. You can also move.

The idea is to survive the home invasion by whatever means necessary. If someone breaks into my home, I am going to protect myself and my family first, not worry about warning the BG. Also, with my home layout, it is fairly easy to distinguish where a sound comes from. I will keep the upper hand, the element of surprise, for as long as I can.

RainDodger
November 22, 2011, 04:52 PM
How I use it will depend on the situation, but I keep a Remington 870 handy, magazine full, with a "Side Saddle" on it that holds (I think) 5 extra shells. All are 00 Buck. (I live in the country with no close neighbors.... )

Edit: my 75 lb dog provides early warning and visual scare tactics via nice large canine teeth

Matthew Courtney
November 22, 2011, 07:03 PM
If the thing that went bump in the night is in my home, I grab my 1100 loaded with 00 buck and establish a barricade position at my reinforced bedroom door, with the master bath as my fall back position if the 9 shots fail to stop the attack. I keep an AR in the wife's closet in the master bath.

If the thing that went bump is outside my home, the barricade position is from just outside the master bedroom where I have clear fire lanes to both reinforced steel entry doors from behind good cover with the bedroom as the fallback position. In this instance I would pick up my LR-308 due to the greater distances and better backstops just beyond the fire lanes.

Firearm choice is much less important than hardened doors, a warning system, emergency planning, and practicing both defensive shooting skills and one's emergency plans.

Matthew Courtney
November 22, 2011, 07:05 PM
Neither, get a pump. The racking sound alone will decrease your chances of having to fire it in defense.
Yeah, if you get killed because you gave away your position, you won't have to shoot anybody.

willypete
November 22, 2011, 07:12 PM
Assuming that both the SBR and coach gun are lying on a table and I get to pick one, I'll take the SBR, assuming it's an AR15-type weapon. I have some training with them, and they're a better weapon for self-defense.

A coach gun is better than nothing, but there are better options that aren't selected just because they looked cool in Tombstone.

However, in real life, since I have to consider cost, I'll take my Mossberg 500 with an 18.5" bbl. Again, I have training, and it's about $800-1000 cheaper than an SBR.

gym
November 22, 2011, 07:35 PM
Each situation is different, On the fly, I go to my 24/7 pocket gun 380 if there is no time. If I have seconds my 9 in my holster, and 3-5 seconds my AR , standing at the ready. Also too many variables to give any kind of intelligent answer. You really don't have time to select the gun you prefer if someone is crashing is through the door. You evaluate make a decision and follow through.It may be getting the loved ones in to a single room, or the exact opposite, there is no steadfast blueprint.Choices are only made when time is not an option, otherwise anything becomes a weapon. You may choose to use your pocket gun to fight your way to your larger caliber or higher capacity weapon.you want to account for all of your own people so you have clear targets, out of that one room.
Again no one can tell anyone exactlly what to do as they aren't there. Also leaving a coach gun laying around, is a hard thing to accomidate, perhaps hiding it in plain sight is the way to go, like over a fireplace or as a decorative piece on a wall of in a breakfront. The shells may be left in a bowel of the same period so as to blend in.

Matthew Courtney
November 22, 2011, 07:43 PM
Each situation is different, On the fly, I go to my 24/7 pocket gun 380 if there is no time. If I have seconds my 9 in my holster, and 3-5 seconds my AR , standing at the ready. Also too many variables to give any kind of intelligent answer. You really don't have time to select the gun you prefer if someone is crashing is through the door. You evaluate make a decision and follow through.It may be getting the loved ones in to a single room, or the exact opposite, there is no steadfast blueprint.Choices are only made when time is not an option, otherwise anything becomes a weapon. You may choose to use your pocket gun to fight your way to your larger caliber or higher capacity weapon.you want to account for all of your own people so you have clear targets, out of that one room.
Again no one can tell anyone exactlly what to do as they aren't there. Also leaving a coach gun laying around, is a hard thing to accomidate, perhaps hiding it in plain sight is the way to go, like over a fireplace or as a decorative piece on a wall of in a breakfront. The shells may be left in a bowel of the same period so as to blend in.
Which bowel is better for storing shotgun shells? The large intestine for faster access or the small intestine for more security?

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 09:23 PM
What are the thoughts on the AR-15 "pistols"?

Usually can be had with a simple optic on top for the same or less than a standard AR and still shorter than most SBR versions.

willypete
November 22, 2011, 09:25 PM
What are the thoughts on the AR-15 "pistols"?

My thoughts are that I hope you have a suppressor on that little guy, or that you walk around your house with earmuffs on all the time, or are already deaf.

Ballistically, not a bad choice, I guess. There are better, IMO.

Matthew Courtney
November 22, 2011, 09:49 PM
The AR pistols handle differently than AR rifles and differently than other pistols. Shooting them well means learning how to do things differently. For the time and ammo used in learning one, a person could master a carbine and have a more effective, useful firearm. I have one, but I wouldn't even think of picking it up if I had a rifle handy.

kwelz
November 22, 2011, 09:53 PM
Ar Pistols are not a great options. In fact they are pretty much an abomination.

The best Home defense choice is the one you train with.
For me that is a 10.3 Inch Mk18 with a Suppressor and a Surefire Scout light. More controllable than a shotgun with easier followups. Much more powerful than a handgun with far less wallboard penetration than either. Not to mention I won't destroy my hearing if I ever need to actually light off a round.

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 10:16 PM
The AR pistols handle differently than AR rifles and differently than other pistols. Shooting them well means learning how to do things differently. For the time and ammo used in learning one, a person could master a carbine and have a more effective, useful firearm. I have one, but I wouldn't even think of picking it up if I had a rifle handy.
How do they handle differently?

I don't see how it'd be different than a regular one.

:confused:

Throwing on a suppressor I can see.

kwelz
November 22, 2011, 10:22 PM
They don't have a stock but still require 2 hands to use. This makes it very hard to aim them well.

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 10:28 PM
They don't have a stock but still require 2 hands to use. This makes it very hard to aim them well.
They don't have a stock, but they still have a buffer tube
;)

kwelz
November 22, 2011, 10:41 PM
Yes but try to use that in place of a buttstock in a high stress environment. It doesn't work very well.

gym
November 22, 2011, 10:43 PM
An Ar if you can get to it, with a slide fire stock, practice a lot, being able to lay a burst into a group of would be home invaders, will send them out of town fast. And they do work well. Having experienced 5 entering I would have loved to relive that moment in the 70's with that weapon.Trying to pick out targets when in that situation is almost impossible, close quarter combat, in and awkward situation, "like shooting up your own home is not mentally easy to swallow, but you need to be able to compensate and move forward. And knowing when it's over is also just as important, not allowing yourself to go firing at cars or neighboors homes in the background, is a real concern.
Last week in Vero Beach, we had 11 roberies while the homeowners were home, and a murder when the homeowner walked in on a robbery in progress . Nice way to say 11 home invasions. This is not stopping, there were 39 last month. If you live in FL you know whats going on. It's everyware and holidays are the worse time.people feel good and forget things in the car and neighboors stop over and the door gets left unlocked, recipie for trouble.
Especially rainy days. Ask a cop, crooks love rainy days for robberies.What else is there to say, AR15, Coachgun,, you need to be able to get it quick and keep a gun on your person.No hiding place is better than in my hand.
No one breaks into a home with an auto or rifle that is able to lay down 30 rounds in a couple seconds, on the other side knowinglly. As long as your people are safe in a bedroom with another weapon or weapons and cell phone, the police are on the way and the invaders are out of there if they are still able to move. Make that 2 murders, another yesterday, and if you don't like slide fire, or have a tough time figuring it out, you can always pull the trigger.or pay for the tax stamp, and pick up a mak 10 for 3 grand.Slide fire stocks work very easily, take 10 seconds to figure out wiith a little practice they are reliable, and you can always just fire the gun like you normally would.

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 10:44 PM
With proper training?

kwelz
November 22, 2011, 10:45 PM
An Ar if you can get to it, with a slide fire stock, practice a lot, being able to lay a burst into a group of would be home invaders, will send them out of town fast

Worst advice ever. Something like this hampers reliability of the weapon and just leads to more problems. Don't add stupid gimmicky stuff to a weapon that will only decrease its effectiveness.

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 10:49 PM
I do agree with this.

The only time I could see it being ok if you live by yourself in the middle of no where, have several mags on the nightstand and good at plaster and grout work.

snake eater 332
November 22, 2011, 10:56 PM
I'm a LEO with 15+ years experience and 9+ years served in the military.

My personal recommendation for a primary home defense weapon would be a 12 gauge pump shotgun with as short a barrel that is legally possible and that your comfortable with. A shotgun is very versatile, with a large selection of ammo available for various purposes, and is quite devastating in close quarters.

My personal favorite is my 14 inch barreled 12 gauge Mossberg 590A1 shotgun with ghost ring sights, a Hogue Youth stock, a Surefire 621FGA Forend Weaponlight, Blackhawk front sling adapter, Specter Gear 3-point tactical sling, and 3GunGear.com 7-Shell Side Saddle, which has a nylon side saddle with elasticized shell holders backed with velcro that affixes to a base on the shotgun receiver. This side saddle carrier allows single-hand removal and attachment so that additional side saddle carriers can be carried on tactical vests or plate carriers and your ammo source can be easily replenished. This shotgun has an overall length (OAL) of 35 inches, which is a nice compact size for manuevering inside a house or building. This is my primary HD long gun.

http://img.tapatalk.com/47eb4c49-6bb7-f65a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/47eb4c49-6bc4-2226.jpg

I also strongly believe that a light source is MANDATORY for any HD weapon so as to positively identify your potential target! Lest it be a family member, such as a teen son/daughter sneaking back into the house...that could be extremely tragic. A weapon-mounted light could also be used offensively to blind an offender, allowing you to gain the tactical advantage in a dynamic critical incident.

As previously stated, a dog is an outstanding early warning system. Also, an alarm system and good locks on your doors and windows aid in making your home/business a less attractive target of opportunity.

When considering Home Defense, the most important things to consider are:

1) having a well thought out HD plan, AND
2) training and become intimately familiar with whatever HD firearm you choose.

allaroundhunter
November 22, 2011, 11:00 PM
Big no to the slide-fire stock....a quick double or triple tap on semi with the AR will suffice.

I don't know who in their right mind would use a slide-fire stock on a HD rifle. For a range toy? Maybe. To defend myself? Nope.

I much prefer controlled and accurate fire out of a semi AR.

788Ham
November 22, 2011, 11:18 PM
Kendal Black,

On post #41, you stated,"Repeater holding more shots....." Using a 12 ga. shotgun for HD is a very good idea, however, have you ever seen what a shotgun does to the human anatomy? Wouldn't 1 or 2 rounds at the most be sufficient for your purpose? I mean my God, are you wanting the perp to be quartered too, or "strung out" across the living room?

EvilGenius
November 22, 2011, 11:34 PM
Kendal Black,

On post #41, you stated,"Repeater holding more shots....." Using a 12 ga. shotgun for HD is a very good idea, however, have you ever seen what a shotgun does to the human anatomy? Wouldn't 1 or 2 rounds at the most be sufficient for your purpose? I mean my God, are you wanting the perp to be quartered too, or "strung out" across the living room?
Despite all the training one can have. It's highly unlikely that anyone has a vast amount o experience shooting at a live human bein in their house. I'd say it's a lot easier than most are wiling to admit to miss entirely.

Better to have a few for back up.

TexasRifleman
November 23, 2011, 08:43 AM
I also strongly believe that a light source is MANDATORY for any HD weapon so as to positively identify your potential target! Lest it be a family member, such as a teen son/daughter sneaking back into the house...that could be extremely tragic. A weapon-mounted light could also be used offensively to blind an offender, allowing you to gain the tactical advantage in a dynamic critical incident.


Exactly.

Arguing against having a light is silly since you don't have to turn it on if you don't want to.

Better to have it and not need it.

zfk55
November 23, 2011, 09:15 AM
If you can't do it in 6 or 8 shots, you're probably in more troouble than you think.

This one. I was able to get a virtually unused Mossberg special edition from the Quebec Police Dept. some years ago, and it's labeled as such on the receiver.
The buttpad is extremely comfortable when shooting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/IMG_2482.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/IMG_2483.jpg

gunguy0829
November 23, 2011, 09:44 AM
I like the big dog, I have two, and thats chance one, 12 gauge pump, the sound of chambering a round is universal for "Get Out", chance two, the distance the intruder has between him and me is time to think, may be a split second but its time to think thats strike 3 and your out, 00 buck center of the chest. Dont worry about recoil your adrenalin will be pumping so hard you wont even feel the shot gun going off. In a situation like that most peolpe will forget the basics of shooting, the stress of the situation is a lot more than they play on hollywood, you dont need to think with a shot gun just point and pull the trigger. If you use a pistol you need to be able to practice drawing and aiming and shooting under stress monthly at least, and no matter what you use know whats behind your target and never ever hesitate, you hesitate and the intruder is shooting you with your own gun,
snake eater is right you need to practice a HD plan, if that means practicing clearing your house when no one is home empty chamber so be it. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

huntsman
November 23, 2011, 09:49 AM
Shotgun is better then a rifle
SXS is better than a pump
Pistol is better than revolver
Metal is better than plastic
IMHO

Anything else?

Matthew Courtney
November 23, 2011, 10:34 AM
Kendal Black,

On post #41, you stated,"Repeater holding more shots....." Using a 12 ga. shotgun for HD is a very good idea, however, have you ever seen what a shotgun does to the human anatomy? Wouldn't 1 or 2 rounds at the most be sufficient for your purpose? I mean my God, are you wanting the perp to be quartered too, or "strung out" across the living room?
Plus, Bad guys never work in groups of 3 or more and good guys never miss! Didn't you get the re-write of the script?

gym
November 23, 2011, 11:41 AM
I didn't get the "bowl" analogy. Next time you have home invasion let me know.This idea of racking the shotgun is not too smart and is highly over rated. Some crooks don't hear or care. They also may have their own shotgun which is now being fired at where the sound came from. Plus what if it short cycles or a round jams, the gun should be ready with the safety now off, if someone is in your home. It's not a hearing test. it's as bad as a movie when everyone cocks their gun right before they are going to shoot.The only thing you should be concerned with is "you" knowing where everyone is, not them knowing where you are. Plus you just gave up a round, as one should have been chambered, and once you make that noise you better be ready to fire and not load another round in, especially if you have a gun that takes olnly 4+1 rounds. Round chambered safety on, if you are using a shotgun, or get a 930spx or a Benelli m4 gas operated gun. Something that can stay on target instead of push you accross the room. It's different when you are running or crouchingand have to pump each time. Auto shotgus especially Gas assist are a much better choice, that's why most military and police are switching over.

John R.
November 23, 2011, 12:08 PM
I own many gun, servel loaded and handy but I pick up my 870 when alerted by my Goat gaurd Dogs. I keep it loaded with low brass #9 shot or my k-` frame 357 loaded with .38 cal.bird shot. I kill geese and turkey at close range with a head shot with the #9's in the 12 ga. I have shot wood, old phone books and game with mant different ga's and cal's and I'll stick with the small shot which I think is my best bet for home protection.
I am a hunter and take game but Im not a killer.I never have to track a wounded animal.I shoot to kill, not to wound. If I can't get the head or neck shot I'm looking for I don't squeez the triger and I especilly don't won't to see a wounded person floping around in my home with some bad placed .45 cal. holes punched in him.

allaroundhunter
November 23, 2011, 01:47 PM
I own many gun, servel loaded and handy but I pick up my 870 when alerted by my Goat gaurd Dogs. I keep it loaded with low brass #9 shot or my k-` frame 357 loaded with .38 cal.bird shot. I kill geese and turkey at close range with a head shot with the #9's in the 12 ga. I have shot wood, old phone books and game with mant different ga's and cal's and I'll stick with the small shot which I think is my best bet for home protection.
I am a hunter and take game but Im not a killer.I never have to track a wounded animal.I shoot to kill, not to wound. If I can't get the head or neck shot I'm looking for I don't squeez the triger and I especilly don't won't to see a wounded person floping around in my home with some bad placed .45 cal. holes punched in him.

You are going to see some person flopping around with several hundred #9 shot in him.....birds and humans require different loads to put down "humanely"

SAGERAT
November 23, 2011, 01:50 PM
12 gauge pump shotgun (or 20 for a small recoil sensitive person) loaded with birdshot, #8 or 7 1/2. If your assailant is close enough to justify shooting, you'll blow a 6" hole clear through him but the birdshot will pose much less danger to someone in an adjacent room than any bullet. Plus it's a whole lot easier to hit your target with a shotgun.

Kendal Black
November 23, 2011, 02:26 PM
Kendal Black,

On post #41, you stated,"Repeater holding more shots....." Using a 12 ga. shotgun for HD is a very good idea, however, have you ever seen what a shotgun does to the human anatomy? Wouldn't 1 or 2 rounds at the most be sufficient for your purpose? I mean my God, are you wanting the perp to be quartered too, or "strung out" across the living room?

Sometimes bad guys brings friends. Sometimes good guys miss. These factors incline me to the view that having more shots is a good idea.

It's an old question: How many opponents are you going to prepare for? It may be that three is the reasonable maximum for training scenarios, since any beyond that and you are going to need extra luck, not more skill...

I have a nice old SxS I enjoy very much, afield. I like the simple operation, near total reliability and the good balance and pointing and swinging qualities. It would be a heck of a defense gun until its two shots are expended and I need to execute a cowboy reload.

I've said elsewhere that a good double barrel, hammerless type, is the optimum weapon for the mechanically disinclined person. We all know someone for whom any machinery is likely to snarl up when he touches it, or she touches it. This sort of person will short stroke the pump, push a shell into the magazine backwards, forget a round needs to be chambered for an autoloader to work, etcetera.

With the double: To load, place a shell in each hole. You cannot put it in backwards. To unload and show clear, make sure there is nothing in the holes. To check for barrel obstructions, hinge the gun open and take a look from the breech end. So I think there is a place for the double gun in defense, in certain hands. :) You just hope a home invasion by multiple thugs isn't the scenario.

Here is an engaging video in which Clint Smith suggests that all kinds of shotguns are usable for defense. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw

allaroundhunter
November 23, 2011, 02:42 PM
12 gauge pump shotgun (or 20 for a small recoil sensitive person) loaded with birdshot, #8 or 7 1/2. If your assailant is close enough to justify shooting, you'll blow a 6" hole clear through him but the birdshot will pose much less danger to someone in an adjacent room than any bullet. Plus it's a whole lot easier to hit your target with a shotgun.

A person doesn't have to be 10 feet away from you in your home before you are allowed to shoot. I have been peppered by #7 1/2 shot from 25 yards and it didn't even break skin. I would NEVER load a defensive shotgun with birdshot.

Bartholomew Roberts
November 23, 2011, 04:02 PM
12 gauge pump shotgun (or 20 for a small recoil sensitive person) loaded with birdshot, #8 or 7 1/2. If your assailant is close enough to justify shooting, you'll blow a 6" hole clear through him

Doubtful. #7 1/2 birdshot won't even penetrate 6" of bare gelatin with no clothes, bones, or anything else. (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-381023.html). The average male torso is around 8-9" deep and I'm not aware of any skinless, boneless torsos out there, so even in a best case circumstance where your attacker is naked, very close, and doesn't have anything blocking his torso, you aren't likely to be blowing holes through him.

And in my open choke Remington, trap loads spread a little more than 1" per yard - so a 6" pattern on the target means the target is around 15' away (i.e. 5 feet further away than jello in the above test).

gunguy0829
November 23, 2011, 05:37 PM
44 mag with 300 grain jhp is the back up, if he doesnt drop with that, he must be superman

zfk55
November 23, 2011, 05:52 PM
Quote:
An Ar if you can get to it, with a slide fire stock, practice a lot, being able to lay a burst into a group of would be home invaders, will send them out of town fast

Worst advice ever. Something like this hampers reliability of the weapon and just leads to more problems. Don't add stupid gimmicky stuff to a weapon that will only decrease its effectiveness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not to mention the fact that anyone using a rifle caliber in a house is very likely to go through a few walls and hit neighbors or anything on the other side. Want to roll the dice with an AR as a home defence weapon? They don't come with "get out of jail free" cards.

gym
November 23, 2011, 06:45 PM
By the way, cameras help a lot, two or three good ones, no one wants to be on video, and you don't keep the recorder in the house, it brodcasts to an off premisis server, so here isn't a way to get the disc as there is no disc.If you choose to yu can wire a hard drive, wi-fi , into your network and check on your house anytime, which more of us should do now that the technology is less than buying an inexpensive pistol. You never know who is eyeballing your house.

benEzra
November 23, 2011, 06:57 PM
Not to mention the fact that anyone using a rifle caliber in a house is very likely to go through a few walls and hit neighbors or anything on the other side. Want to roll the dice with an AR as a home defence weapon? They don't come with "get out of jail free" cards.
.223 Remington JHP and SP in the 50-60 grain range typically penetrates less in drywall than 12-gauge 00 buckshot, 9mm JHP, and .45 ACP JHP. Typical loads will penetrate two or three interior walls (as will buckshot), and some loads are fragmenting by the time they exit the first wall.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

I do strongly disagree with bump-fire-gimmick stocks for serious purposes, but .223 Remington with appropriate loads is a perfectly fine alternative to 12-gauge. A civilian-length .223 carbine in the 16" to 18" range isn't any louder than an 18.5" 12-gauge, either, unless fitted with a brake.

I do think a light is a good idea on any defensive long gun, and if using a rifle-caliber carbine, a flash suppressor is also a good idea.

allaroundhunter
November 24, 2011, 01:39 AM
Morta, the difference with rifle rounds is that they do not need as much penetration in a human body to cause lethal damage. A rifle round dumps a significantly larger amount of energy than a pistol round and 8" is plenty deep to incapacitate an attacker, vital organs are much less that 8" underneath the skin.

A v-max round is definitely appropriate for HD, and, IMO, better suited for it than most any other round. It will incapacitate an attacker better than a pistol round, and will also pose less of a danger of over penetration in the case of a miss.

Morta, what type of round do you think special weapons teams use in their ARs? Here's a hint, it isn't a Nosler Partition (what I use on deer).

allaroundhunter
November 24, 2011, 10:30 AM
^ I'm going by what is recommended by people such as Dr. Martin Fackler, who have made careers out of studying terminal balistics. I distrust varmint loads for anti-human duty bbecause if they fragment pretty much immediately upon hitting the body, then what about reaching the deeper organs in a big chunk? What about getting through bones?

SWAT teams user either FMJ or JHP. Our military uses FMJ as per Hague.

Not all JHP rounds are varmint loads. Varmint loads are designed to deal with small animals. There's even a wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varmint_hunting Notice how all those animals are quite small?

Okay, after this post I'm done discussing this.

First off, not many, if any LEO's load their patrol rifles (or entry rifles) with FMJ ammo.

Secondly, just how deep in a body do you think organs are? You don't need to penetrate 12" to get to them.

Obviously you have seen what a varmint round will do to a prairie dog, pink mist right?Yea, that is what it will do to an attackers vitals. The fragments even mean that you are likely to hit multiple vital organs with a single shot to center mass. Bones will not do much to stop the round, it might deflect some of the bullet or make it fragment further, but it will still be a good hit (if we're talking ribs).

Regardless of what "Dr. Fackler" says, my AR will stay loaded with either a 60 gr V-Max, or Hornady TAP, not FMJ. Penetration isn't the only killer with rifle rounds....

After looking into Mr. Fackler's work, he is actually one of the first to demonstrate that fragmentation is the most effective way to inflict wounds. He did NOT recommend the use of FMJ (although the military is bound to).

benEzra
November 24, 2011, 06:02 PM
The problem with that is that those low penetration loadings are varmint loads and not meant to kill humans. If your goal is to cause incapacitation level injuries, then you ought to use the same sort of rounds you'd use on something of the same weight class as a human such as a deer. Do you hunt deer with a varmint load? No. Why fight similarly heavy and constructed people with varmint loads then? My worry about using person I shoot with a varmint load in a defense situation is that they will not be injured enough to be permanently dissuaded from continuing. Remember, these Hornady Vmax 55 grain loadings are stopping in 8 inches of gel, which is 25% than the FBI recommends as a safe minimum. What about arms, bones, funny angles, and other assorted vagaries?
Mortablunt, many .223 JHP/SP loads meet the FBI standard of 12" penetration in gelatin while still penetrating less in wallboard than 00 buckshot or 9mm JHP.

For example, here are some Federal .223 JHP/SP loads:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=26244&d=1120919526

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=26243&d=1120919514

I personally think 11" is entirely sufficient for non-LE defensive use, so my own load of choice is Federal T223E 55gr JHP, but there are plenty low-penetration loads that still meet the 12" gelatin standard. FWIW, that load is marketed as a defensive/LE load, not a varmint load.

If you'll notice, a whole lot of SWAT teams have shifted away from 9mm MP5's to .223 carbines using JHP or SP, and one of the big reasons is that .223 JHP are less likely to exit a structure than 9mm but are still very effective.

At the risk of drawing a chorus of hate here, but you might want to look at paratrooper type AK. It doesn't come out much further than a handgun, but it's easier to use, has a bigger mag, and has a more damaging round. As a guarantee, any rifle round is going to seriously overpenetrate if it is a JHP, JSP, FMJ, or TMJ. Any that doesn't do that is either a varmint load, or a caliber such as 22lr or smaller, neither of which should not be used when rapid incapacitation is essential.
7.62x39mm JHP penetrates considerably more than .223 JHP in building materials, even if it doesn't in gelatin. Having said that, if you live in a brick house, 7.62x39mm 124gr 8M3 JHP (Ulyanovsk) is not a bad defensive load if you can find it anymore, and the Hornady 125gr VMAX is promising as well. But those bullets are twice as heavy as .223 rounds and are traveling much slower, and are therefore much less likely to fragment in four or six sheets of drywall (even 8M3).

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/2338/ulyhp0hc.jpg

Also, for a defensive carbine, I'd strongly suggest a full stock vs. a paratrooper-style wire folder for cheek-weld reasons. I used to shoot an AK in USPSA-style carbine matches, and the full stock is much faster than the folder. Since the gun is pretty much useless with the stock folded, without being effectively shorter, the folder doesn't make as much sense unless storage of a full-length carbine is an issue.

If you can't think of anything to do, just get yourself a pump or semiautomatic shotgun.
Not a bad choice at all; I agree that shotguns are excellent HD choices. They are not the only such choices, though.

willypete
November 24, 2011, 09:41 PM
benEzra, thank you for posting those pictures. However, from looking at them, it appears as though the 55 gr FMJ is pretty effective, and acts almost like a "delayed-fuse" round in bare gelatin (not that anyone's at risk of being assaulted by bare gelatin). Also, 55 gr FMJ American Eagle flavor is pretty cheap and common at Wally World and other big box stores. The 62 grain SP also looks effective, and would tempt me... if I could find some!

benEzra
November 24, 2011, 10:51 PM
The 55gr FMJ fragments well in gelatin at close range, but it tends to penetrate a lot more wallboard than 55gr JHP or SP does. For a HD carbine in a neighborhood, I lean toward JHP to give equal or better effectiveness while being less likely to exit an exterior wall. Also, JHP will still expand at longer ranges where 55gr to 62gr FMJ is going too slow to fragment, but that's not particularly relevant to HD. Obviously if you live in a masonry house or with no close neighbors, the increased wall penetration of FMJ is less of an issue.

My AR is generally loaded with the Federal T223E, but there are a lot of good choices. My one beef with the Federal loads is that they are loaded somewhat conservatively; those specs above are for 14.5" LE carbines, but even out of short barrels .223 should be going faster than that. I believe Winchester and Black Hills make some 55gr JHP/SP that are substantially hotter, and I'll probably switch to that at some point.

PaulKersey3
November 25, 2011, 01:03 AM
Lotta armchair commandos who aren't at peace with that overpriced AR they bought. As a result they cram everything AR down everyone else's throats. IMO AKs are better than ARs, period. And on the subject of a pump action as an audible deterrent, if you're up to no good you hear a pump slide rack and you drop everything. In any close quarters engagement the shotgun is king. back to the original topic, SBR vs a coach gun for home defense, overpenetration is the biggest concern, AK or AR. My choice would be the coach because of the massive ballistic trauma it deals out. Now bring on the long winded rebuttals from the overprepared.

ugaarguy
November 25, 2011, 05:07 AM
Lotta armchair commandos who aren't at peace with that overpriced AR they bought. As a result they cram everything AR down everyone else's throats. IMO AKs are better than ARs, period.
Seriously, there's no need for snide comments like that here. However, since you brought it up: I'm not a commando, but a real commando (MOS 18Z) who posts here on THR recently addressed the whole AK superiority thing - http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7742629&postcount=78 . You may find his professional opinion enlightening.
And on the subject of a pump action as an audible deterrent, if you're up to no good you hear a pump slide rack and you drop everything.
Unless you're a determined attacker or too drugged up to notice.
In any close quarters engagement the shotgun is king.
I suppose that's why so my professional entry teams have dropped shotguns in favor of carbines.
back to the original topic, SBR vs a coach gun for home defense, overpenetration is the biggest concern, AK or AR. My choice would be the coach because of the massive ballistic trauma it deals out.
Depends on ammo selection with either gun. ARs aren't death rays, nor are AKs, nor are shotguns.
Now bring on the long winded rebuttals from the overprepared. No need for that. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

Bubba613
November 25, 2011, 06:09 AM
Shotgun is better then a rifle
SXS is better than a pump
Pistol is better than revolver
Metal is better than plastic
IMHO

Anything else?
Black powder is better than smokeless.
Sword beats gun
Rock is better than pistol.

And on the subject of a pump action as an audible deterrent, if you're up to no good you hear a pump slide rack and you drop everything.
Unless you're a determined attacker or too drugged up to notice.
In the first case it won't make any difference, in the second case it won't either. But since you don't know what kind of state the intruder is in, why not try it?
What do you have in your house worth dying for?

bikerdoc
November 25, 2011, 08:02 AM
Basic home defense is best when it is layered.
Outside= motion activated lights, cctv, thoughtful landscaping, hardened doors and windows, outside dog.

Inside= inside dog, alarm system, motion activated lights, knowing your choke points and having a practiced plan.

weapon- my choice is a 20 inch shotgun with 00 buck IC choke.

benEzra
November 25, 2011, 09:39 AM
Lotta armchair commandos who aren't at peace with that overpriced AR they bought. As a result they cram everything AR down everyone else's throats. IMO AKs are better than ARs, period.
I shot an AK for a few years in USPSA carbine matches before I ever bought an AR. I like both, but I find that the AR platform has advantages for me in terms of accuracy, HD ammunition selection, and ease of mounting optics. I still have the AK and still like it.

Please don't assume that those of us who like AR's only like them because we are too stupid/elitist/incompetent to appreciate AK's. They are both good, reliable, effective carbines; use what you like. If I had it to do over again, I'd have bought a 5.45x39mm AK instead of a 7.62x39mm, though.

And on the subject of a pump action as an audible deterrent, if you're up to no good you hear a pump slide rack and you drop everything.
The same could be said for cycling the action of an AK or AR.

Having said that, I think having a round in the chamber before your hypothetical intruder gets that far is a safer approach, regardless of firearm type. Keep in mind that criminals who knowingly invade occupied homes are not your typical confrontation-avoiding burglar.

In any close quarters engagement the shotgun is king.
Shotgun is always an excellent choice, but not the only excellent choice. I see that most LE and *.mil use carbines for close quarters entry work, and I personally run a carbine a lot better than I run a shotgun. In competent hands, neither is a bad choice.

back to the original topic, SBR vs a coach gun for home defense, overpenetration is the biggest concern, AK or AR.
Short winded rebuttal: Midweight .223 JHP penetrates less in wallboard than 00 buckshot, not more. I'd agree that 7.62x39mm JHP probably out-penetrates buckshot, but you can also get AK's in 5.45x39mm and .223 in addition to 7.62x39mm.

My choice would be the coach because of the massive ballistic trauma it deals out. Now bring on the long winded rebuttals from the overprepared.
To the OP's question, I personally think pump shotguns and 16" carbines are both superior to coach guns and SBR's, unless the SBR is suppressed or is pistol caliber. Rifle-caliber SBR's produce horrendous blast and flash, and coach guns turn into rather poor clubs after only 2 shots.

I recall (I believe from Massad Ayoob) that when the NYPD used 12-gauge side-by-side's, their hit percentage in close quarter shootings was under 50%. Private citizens shooting their own guns might do better, but still won't be 100%. Capacity is probably a big reason why LE and *.mil tend to use pumps or semiautos.

FWIW, most residential burglaries probably involve single individuals, but home invasion robberies often involve two or more individuals working together. That can present a problem if you only have a 2-shot firearm.

Basic home defense is best when it is layered.
^^ This. A long gun in the home doesn't do you any good if an intruder walks in on you before you know he's there.

ugaarguy
November 25, 2011, 11:47 AM
In the first case it won't make any difference, in the second case it won't either. But since you don't know what kind of state the intruder is in, why not try it?
May not want to telegraph your position as already noted here.
What do you have in your house worth dying for?
Nothing in the main living areas - that's why I have insurance. Front door is steel, and hardened. Bedroom door is hardened. The dog already goes nuts when people knock on the front door, until I tell her to hush. I'll be dialing 911 as soon as I can tell someone is trying to bust in the front door. If they breach the front door and the sounds of the dog barking plus me yelling "I have a gun, and the police are on the way" hopefully changes their mind. If they start trying to bust in my bedroom door at that point I'd reasonably assume that they're there to do me great harm, and I'll defend myself.

Matthew Courtney
November 25, 2011, 01:31 PM
AK's have gradually rising in price and so has 7.62 x 39 ammo. It is still a little cheaper to go that route, but the cost difference in narrowing.

There are many differences and trade offs in making an AR v. AK decision. The deciding factor for me is the ease, speed, and mechanics of the loading/reloading process with the AR. I can maintain a sight picture and reload in well under 2 seconds with an AR. Reloading an AK takes me about 3 seconds plus about another second to regain a sight picture(if the target has remained in the same area, which people under fire do not tend to do).

I still have both, but the AK's are for when I run out of 5.56 and .308 ammo and cannot get any more.

Still, if the bump in the night is inside the house, the LR-308 backs up the 1100.

Kendal Black
November 25, 2011, 03:19 PM
I think that for many home defense uses, 00 buck is unnecessarily large. But small birdshot is too small. The thing about shotguns, though, is you have all kinds of choices in between.

Years ago, Federal Cartridge offered a Premium Personal Defense 12 gauge shell that was a spreader load of #2 lead birdshot. That made a lot of sense, but it was a failure in the marketplace, because everyone 'just knows' buckshot is the right thing for defense. Everyone also knows that tight patterns are better than big ones, though for close quarters that is not necessarily true. So a defense load throwing large birdshot in a wide pattern faced a marketing double whammy.

It could be that #2 was too small, but a principle I find useful is that you should use the smallest shot that penetrates adequately in the target that you anticipate, and at the range at which you will encounter it. 00 buck is just great for military use because it carries a long way, highly dangerous to 50 yards and well beyond. The pattern density, though, is poor.

When you reduce the shot size you increase pattern density and reduce danger radius. This relationship gives us something to work with when looking at appropriate home defense loads.

Here are a couple of links with gel test photos, both of them archives of the same material, that somewhat illustrate the ideas I am poking at. The good close range performance of size BB is informative.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

I have no firm conclusion in the matter, but it seems to me that 00 is bigger than we need and dove loads are not enough. But there is a big continuum between the one and the other. Something in between is probably right.

Kendal Black
November 25, 2011, 03:45 PM
The FBI penetration standard of 12 inches minimum, with up to 18 inches desirable, might not be a relevant standard when the question is home defense. It comes from factors relating to police gunfights in the field, and one in particular, the infamous and tragic Miami shootout. http://www.lesjones.com/2006/04/28/fbi-notes-on-misplaced-over-penetration-fears-fbi-miami-shootout/ Typical home defense has few features in common with this widely cited worst case scenario.

EvilGenius
November 25, 2011, 03:53 PM
I think that for many home defense uses, 00 buck is unnecessarily large. But small birdshot is too small. The thing about shotguns, though, is you have all kinds of choices in between.

Years ago, Federal Cartridge offered a Premium Personal Defense 12 gauge shell that was a spreader load of #2 lead birdshot. That made a lot of sense, but it was a failure in the marketplace, because everyone 'just knows' buckshot is the right thing for defense. Everyone also knows that tight patterns are better than big ones, though for close quarters that is not necessarily true. So a defense load throwing large birdshot in a wide pattern faced a marketing double whammy.

It could be that #2 was too small, but a principle I find useful is that you should use the smallest shot that penetrates adequately in the target that you anticipate, and at the range at which you will encounter it. 00 buck is just great for military use because it carries a long way, highly dangerous to 50 yards and well beyond. The pattern density, though, is poor.

When you reduce the shot size you increase pattern density and reduce danger radius. This relationship gives us something to work with when looking at appropriate home defense loads.

Here are a couple of links with gel test photos, both of them archives of the same material, that somewhat illustrate the ideas I am poking at. The good close range performance of size BB is informative.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

I have no firm conclusion in the matter, but it seems to me that 00 is bigger than we need and dove loads are not enough. But there is a big continuum between the one and the other. Something in between is probably right.
What about #1 buck?

I hear a lot of folks recommending that.

Kendal Black
November 25, 2011, 04:09 PM
What about #1 buck?

I hear a lot of folks recommending that.

Looking strictly at household defense, I think it is still too large. I'm thinking that from #4 Buck to #2 Bird is the range to look at. Something in there is probably about right. ( ~ .24" to .15" )

#1 Buck is fine stuff and has done very well in my informal range testing. It improves on the pattern density of 00 and, in my guns, has patterned more evenly.

willypete
November 26, 2011, 12:52 AM
benEzra: from what I've read, everything will penetrate drywall and 2x4s!!! Seems like it's more important to hit what you aim at rather than worry about what your chosen load will do.

And I agree with you about Federal's ammunition. Seems like that's across the board, not just rifle ammo, too. All the factory Federal ammo I've chronied is repeatedly slower than Winchester or Remington fodder.

Regarding what shot size, load, etc. etc. etc.: practice more with your HD gun and worry about specifics less. Most everything from the business end of a 12 gauge or 20 gauge (WTE of birdshot) will "work" just fine. However, if you're not practiced in its use or physically fit enough to use it, you're the weak link, not your gun or ammo.

benEzra
November 26, 2011, 09:59 AM
benEzra: from what I've read, everything will penetrate drywall and 2x4s!!! Seems like it's more important to hit what you aim at rather than worry about what your chosen load will do.
Everything will penetrate at least 1 interior wall. Some midweight .223 JHP/SP (and I suspect #4 buckshot, but have no data on it) will generally stop by the third wall, and will be stopped by most exterior walls. Most handgun JHP and 00 buckshot will penetrate 3 interior walls or more. Most handgun FMJ, most 7.62x39, most rifle FMJ, and most shotgun slugs will penetrate non-masonry exterior walls.

So, yes, there are levels of penetration in building materials, and if you don't live in a brick home or out in the country, it makes sense to use loads less likely to exit your house, IMO.

PaulKersey3
November 26, 2011, 07:28 PM
Welcome to The High Road. Here, we prefer to be reasonable and dialectical rather than argumentative.
Could've fooled me. I was under the impression that this was THE place for the overopinionated. BTW I own both AR and AK and love them both!

PaulKersey3
November 26, 2011, 07:33 PM
Never shocked to hear guys say they hate AKs when they've been shot at them their whole careers. Understandable, and I always respect the opinions of fellow fighters.

Bmac1949
November 26, 2011, 07:38 PM
After reading this thread I decided to test the pattern size on my 12ga 870. It has a 28" barrel and I was shooting 00 buck, 3". At 30 feet the pattern might have been 12" and at 50 yards it was a little over twice the size of the kill area of a deer about 20 to 24 inches. 13 out of 15 shot hit the target. I had the improved cyl choke in. Most of the rooms in my hose are from 12 to 15 feet, a distance that would make the pattern even smaller. From this I conclude that for the home a long barrel shotgun probably isn't the best weapon for self defence and I'd be better off with a pistol. It would be faster to the targer and carry more rounds than the shotgun. My nephew had a Mossberg 500 and it threw about a 20" pattern at 30 feet and only 2 buckshot hit the target at 50 yards. I think that thing has a 20" barrel, not sure. But the short barrel made it a much better SD weapon.

Bmac1949
November 26, 2011, 07:54 PM
And I agree with you about Federal's ammunition. Seems like that's across the board, not just rifle ammo, too. All the factory Federal ammo I've chronied is repeatedly slower than Winchester or Remington fodder.
Willypete, beg to differ with you on this. Check out Federal Hydroshock. The 230gr .45acp is pretty amazing. I haven't run any through a chronograph but I put a set of calipers to to them and it it amazing how uniform they are for factory ammo. OAL and crimp are almost identical for each round. I was pretty impressed. I've got a feeling that they would chronograph well too.

Ignition Override
November 26, 2011, 08:17 PM
When there are very few noticeable sounds, if any, it often is a family member who returns a night early, or much later than planned-with no advisory call. People tend to assume that cell phones always work.

A hallway light/garage doorway light would have prevented a father from killing his daughter and a guy from killing his fiance, who he assumed was still in the bedroom.

Luckily, nobody who reads gun websites is paranoid enough to shoot into a darkened area
with no idea who is there:scrutiny:. Right? This is why the only discussions focus on which type gun.

ugaarguy: thumbs up.
That quote from Chindo18Z is one of the best comparisons I've ever read.
Superb reference.

willypete
November 26, 2011, 09:18 PM
Willypete, beg to differ with you on this. Check out Federal Hydroshock./QUOTE]

I'll see if I can find some and chrony it. Hyrdoshock used to be my carry load, but I ran out of it before I bought a chrony and haven't looked for any since. Golden Saber and Hornady XTP for this kid and his 1911 :D. I'd really like to find some of the new HST stuff and test it out, as well. It's supposed to be pretty schlick.

[QUOTE]it makes sense to use loads less likely to exit your house, IMO.

I agree with you that there will be varying levels of penetration depending on what you shoot, and that that is a concern when selecting ammo. However, I think that more emphasis should be placed on hitting your target and training than gear selection. Caveat: that doesn't mean I don't geek out about ammo specs sometimes, but I try and keep it to a minimum.

huntsman
November 26, 2011, 11:05 PM
After reading this thread I decided to test the pattern size on my 12ga 870. It has a 28" barrel and I was shooting 00 buck, 3". At 30 feet the pattern might have been 12" and at 50 yards it was a little over twice the size of the kill area of a deer about 20 to 24 inches. 13 out of 15 shot hit the target. I had the improved cyl choke in. Most of the rooms in my hose are from 12 to 15 feet, a distance that would make the pattern even smaller. From this I conclude that for the home a long barrel shotgun probably isn't the best weapon for self defence and I'd be better off with a pistol. It would be faster to the targer and carry more rounds than the shotgun.

I don’t agree with your conclusion, 15 .30cal pellets into a 6” area with 1 pull of the trigger is nothing to ignore and I’d think 15 rounds of 9mm into a 6” area would take longer be more difficult.

Now going mobile in a house with a 28” pump would be awkward at best but to defend a safe room the shotgun would be my choice and the pistol would be the choice only if I had to move.

PaulKersey3
November 27, 2011, 03:00 AM
Fair enough. Didn't want to be rude, but I guess it's a byproduct of being an armed SOB with no filter. Anyone into guns would have to agree though, that some of the AR lot can suck the oxygen out of the room. And anyone that disparages a pump shotgun for HD, is just being a contrarian.

As a side note I stopped a burglary at my parent's house a few years ago with a Glock 19. The ONLY reason I was able to catch him in the garage was because of my friend's medium size but ferocious dog he had brought over for our stakeout. (house sitting)
He had hit their house before with no dog there. I took a bead on him 15 feet away jumping the neighbor's fence, but fired into the air (I know dumb, but heat of the moment) because he was fleeing, and on a neighbor's property. Cops never caught him, of course.

MistWolf
November 27, 2011, 08:10 AM
After clearing a dark house in the middle of the night with a 12GA, flashlight, an adrenaline dump and no clothes I choose none of the above and would rather have a handgun for home defense.

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/75784_700b.jpg

A cookie and an HK work well

The 5.56 is simply a poor choice for any situation. When used by a civilian defending home and family against intruders, it will travel through several walls and still have enough lethal energy to kill innocent bystanders. It's also a poor choice for use by law enforcement or for urban combat because it won't penetrate the walls of the average home and lacks the terminal performance to reliably take the fight of of the badguys

allaroundhunter
November 27, 2011, 12:14 PM
http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/75784_700b.jpg

A cookie and an HK work well

The 5.56 is simply a poor choice for any situation. When used by a civilian defending home and family against intruders, it will travel through several walls and still have enough lethal energy to kill innocent bystanders. It's also a poor choice for use by law enforcement or for urban combat because it won't penetrate the walls of the average home and lacks the terminal performance to reliably take the fight of of the badguys

You obviously haven't read a single one of the replies to this thread regarding the 5.56 as one of the best HD rounds. It DOES have the power for a quick stop and DOES NOT go through multiple interior walls with the proper bullet. And since when do LEO's want to shoot through the exterior wall of a home??

allaroundhunter
November 27, 2011, 02:14 PM
^ Not trolling, but I still don't have much faith in 5.56 being the magic bullet. This argument will never end. I acknowledge 5.56 as being a decent anti-human round, but I don't think there is one magic bullet.

No one said anything about it being a "magic bullet". There are plenty of situations in which I will leave the AR and grab the 12 ga (and if penetration in my home wasn't a factor I would grab an 870 first). But people who say that the 5.56 serves no purpose in HD have no legitimate information to back up their false statements.

And saying that it is "a poor choice in any situation" shows a large amount of ignorance.

Neverwinter
November 27, 2011, 03:16 PM
When used by a civilian defending home and family against intruders, it will travel through several walls and still have enough lethal energy to kill innocent bystanders. It's also a poor choice for use by law enforcement or for urban combat because it won't penetrate the walls of the average homeYou obviously haven't read a single one of the replies to this thread regarding the 5.56 as one of the best HD rounds. It DOES have the power for a quick stop and DOES NOT go through multiple interior walls with the proper bullet. And since when do LEO's want to shoot through the exterior wall of a home??
That post was clearly meant as a satire of the anti-5.56 position. In those two sentences, he claimed that the round is both able and unable to pass through walls.

MistWolf
November 27, 2011, 06:57 PM
Neverwinter wins the prize! It's crazy how often I see folks claiming the 5.56 is a poor choice because it will over penetrate when shot from inside the house but lacks penetration when shot from outside the house.

As much as I like pistols, I prefer the AR carbine for HD because I shoot a rifle much better. It's also a matter of math-

6 shots of 38 is better than 2 shots of 12 ga. 7 shots of 45 ACP is better than 6 shots of 38 and if 18 shots of 9mm is better than 7 shots of 45, 30 shots of 5.56 is king.

I also would not hesitate to grab my Para FAL with 20 rounds of 7.62x51 to defend my family because I know it works and winning the fight has a higher priority than penetration concerns

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