What bullets not to use for deer

I loaded up 3 different bullets for the 7mm rM for this year deer hunt, Speer 130 gr Hot Core, Hornady 139 gr. Interlock, and the Sierra 140 gr. Pro Hunter. The Hornady and the Sierra didn't do very well, fragmentation and total jacket separation was the primary issue. But the Speer held together and as a result, also produced excellent penetration. All of the loads were chronographed at 3300-ish fps and all were very accurate, 1" groups at 200 yds..

The good news is no bucks walked away wounded. My Son did however blow the leg off of one at 500 and something yards, but it was his fault for not sustaining a good rest before taking the shot. His follow up shot was dead on and dropped him in his tracks.

You say all deer were dead???? Sounds like all the bullets mentioned performed like they were supposed to....dead is dead there aren't stages of dead!

You say all deer were dead???? Sounds like all the bullets mentioned performed like they were supposed to....dead is dead there aren't stages of dead!
That's kind of what I think. As long as a bullet penetrates to a vital area, a bullet that fragments does a lot more damage than one that holds together.

A bullet that fragments and looses it's jacket will not perform as consistently as a bullet that retains it's weight well.

Poorly constructed bullets damage a whole bunch of meat too...

We need more info to either support your findings or dispute them.
How far did the deer go after being shot with each example was there a good blood trail.
T

A bullet that fragments and looses it's jacket will not perform as consistently as a bullet that retains it's weight well.

Poorly constructed bullets damage a whole bunch of meat too...
I load nothing but Hornady, and hear all about "the bullet did not perform" but I have never had to track an animal. Where they stood is where they died, its more about shot placement and I try for high neck shots, and as for penetration with the 7mm RM I load for my brother and we have never recovered a bullet because they have always been through and through's, How much more penetration is needed???

I didn't like Silvertips because they would come apart and make a mess of the meat. Once I started loading my own, I found Hornady pointed soft points to be excellent for getting the job done without flying apart. Remington Core-Lokt are also excellent on game.

If you're gonna push the bullets at 3300 fps, you have to choose your bullet wisely. If you use a bullet like a SST or a Nosler ballistic tip at that speed, it's going to blow to confetti and ruin meat at anything but very long ranges. A Nosler partition or a Barnes would hold together better. Bullets expand more at high velocity. That's the way it is.

Depends on range. Short range on a 7mm mag they're going to die with any reasonable hit, light or low quality bullets will ruin some meat but the animal is going to die quickly. Further out it matters - I've had good luck with Nosler partitions.

A bullet that fragments and looses it's jacket will not perform as consistently as a bullet that retains it's weight well.

Poorly constructed bullets damage a whole bunch of meat too...

Since the op is using a 7mm rem mag loaded to 3300fps I'm guessing avoiding meat damage isn't a high priority for him.

Were it me I'd change bullet weights too. I go to at least the next 10g + heavier projectile weight w

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Let me point out that:

1. If your animal drops where it stands, you don't need a good blood trail.

2. If you shoot your animal in the right place, you won't ruin much meat even if the bullet "blows up."

Let me point out that:

1. If your animal drops where it stands, you don't need a good blood trail.

2. If you shoot your animal in the right place, you won't ruin much meat even if the bullet "blows up."
I have to agree.
The three most important factors in dropping your game with very little meat damage are:
Shot-Placement,
Shot-Placement &
Shot-Placement (not necessarily in that order).

If you cannot hit the broad side of a barn and you expect to take down a huge buck with a "poor-shot" to his intestines, you are more than likely going to find a lot of mess at the POI and the deer could literally live for days in complete agony with its insides--out!

There is no excuse, either take the right shot or don't shoot. Taking the right shot means you could use just about any gun to kill a deer, as long as you hit him where it matters!

I know of a hunter who shot at a doe running AWAY from the guy! He laughed that he hit her in the rear-end, but that she kept on running. There is absolutely NOTHING funny about that. If someone thinks that is funny, they are warped.

Let me point out that:

1. If your animal drops where it stands, you don't need a good blood trail.

2. If you shoot your animal in the right place, you won't ruin much meat even if the bullet "blows up."

Exactly.
A whitetailed deer is not a world class hard to kill animal. Put the bullet where it's supposed to go and it will do the job.

If you're gonna push the bullets at 3300 fps, you have to choose your bullet wisely. If you use a bullet like a SST or a Nosler ballistic tip at that speed, it's going to blow to confetti and ruin meat at anything but very long ranges. A Nosler partition or a Barnes would hold together better. Bullets expand more at high velocity. That's the way it is.

this is really important. i use the hornady in my 7mm08 at about 2800 fps.... it is ideal. the gameking is also designed for longer shots so the bullet is slower at point of impact. the bonded nature of the hot core bullets make them hold together well.

all of the bullets mentioned by the op are good bullets... in thier correct application

Where I hunt there are no long shots to take and I prefer the REM CoreLoct or Hornady Interlock bullets. Both have been around for a loonnnnng time and still do what they were designed to do well and for a low cost as a bonus. The new whiz bang bullets are great at the SPECIFIC job they were designed for. Me, I like all around versatility and good history of performance for my reloads.

Deer die very easily when you put one in the boiler room Any good bullet will work just fine. Shot placement is what its all about!

No problem with der falling on the spot, just way too much meat being damaged and contaminated by fraged/separated bullets. We are accomplished hunters and don't loose game, but we also enjoy eating it with minimal lead.

At 3300 fps you are going to see massive meat damage even if the bullet stays together. You are going to push one hell of a temporary cavity from that. I bet when you cleaned it you had a bigger than fist sized hole in the rib cage where bone simply ceased to exist. If you are going to be shooting that fast, you might as well just be shooting solid copper bullets.

I hunted with two guys that used a 7mm Mag. One used Federal ammo loaded with Accu-bonds, the other shot some kind of cheap Winchester stuff in a grey box.

Both hunters shot deer with perfect placement through the heart and lungs. Both deer were DRT. I gutted one, and skun the other.

One deer had a minimal entrance hole, and an exit hole the size of my thumb. The other deer had a minimal entrance hole and enough blood shot meat on the other side to fill a pail.

Does anyone care to guess whose deer was shot with the accu-bonds?

There is even less expensive bonded ammo out there like Winchester power max. I just don't see a reason to wreck meat and eat lead particles, but DRT is DRT right?

Tell me boys, is there a lot of good neck meat? You might try some neck shots if you're concerned about meat damage or your deer going too far.

Next year I'll be checking out the Barnes, Nosler Accubond, and probably keep the Hot Core. It's all good, and also part of the fun for us. Just making converstaion for those who like to discuss the kill.

The good news is no bucks walked away wounded.

Congrats! That's exactly what's supposed to happen! :D

My Son did however blow the leg off of one at 500 and something yards,
WOW!!!! What caliber & load data was he using????

What I look for in a bullet is weight consistency and bullet concentrcity. Flight and accuracy will always follow those two.

The only "premium game bullet" I go to is the Nosler Partion. When you combine the partition weight, perfect powder, to the caliber They always hit like Thor's Hammer.

When you start trying to take kill shots beyond 300yds many more issues come into play Proper dope, ability to "drive" your rifle properly, calculation of Parabolas, and proper caliber that delivers enough energy on contact. Animals really shrink beyond 300yards, a spotter comes in real handy.

Neck shots are a great shot placement for a DRT,however the boiler room offer a larger area for bullet placement.But not necessarily for a DRT type of shock. Animals tend to run not agreeing with that they are allready dead.

Most hunters boast about the one shot one kill ,shot placement or don't shoot mantra. But ask any game animal butcher that processes Big Game just how many foul shot animals they work on every season.

The reasons I shoot partitions is because of Elk. My first shot is always to the shoulder to anchor the animal, followed by my next shot into the boiler room. (I always cape my Elk hides) I learned this from my grandfather.

you used the wrong Sierra , Game Kings are best for accuracy and wight retention.

What I look for in a bullet is weight consistency and bullet concentrcity. Flight and accuracy will always follow those two.

The only "premium game bullet" I go to is the Nosler Partion. When you combine the partition weight, perfect powder, to the caliber They always hit like Thor's Hammer.

When you start trying to take kill shots beyond 300yds many more issues come into play Proper dope, ability to "drive" your rifle properly, calculation of Parabolas, and proper caliber that delivers enough energy on contact. Animals really shrink beyond 300yards, a spotter comes in real handy.

Neck shots are a great shot placement for a DRT,however the boiler room offer a larger area for bullet placement.But not necessarily for a DRT type of shock. Animals tend to run not agreeing with that they are allready dead.

Most hunters boast about the one shot one kill ,shot placement or don't shoot mantra. But ask any game animal butcher that processes Big Game just how many foul shot animals they work on every season.

The reasons I shoot partitions is because of Elk. My first shot is always to the shoulder to anchor the animal, followed by my next shot into the boiler room. (I always cape my Elk hides) I learned this from my grandfather.
I'm sure there are bunches of "foul" shots. I think part of the problem is the consensus that "minute of deer" or "able to hit a pie plate at 100 yards" is good enough.

Don't use any of my bullets for deer ... bad choice ... they never leave the gun barrel. My wife has taken to calling me Barney Fife because I use the same round time after time, year after year. She rubs salt in the wound by saying I should get my yearly armed hiking license, not a hunting license.

I tnink of myself as a good shoot & only take shoots I can make. I had started only makeing head shoots because there is no meat to damage & they are DRT. I as much as I would like to can't say I never miss.

I Can tell you about everyone of them & both that I never found after good shoots with a bow. This is after 25 years of hunting.

In the magnum calibers, I think bullet choice is very important. Bullets can fail and still kill deer, I will grant you that. But that would be when everything goes right. It is when things go wrong that you cant except bullet failure. After 40 years of deer hunting I can attest that there are many ways for things to go wrong. If you hunt in timber, (that's where the deer are in the north country), you may wait a long time for a perfect shot. Maybe the armed hiking license would be a good option. Big deer get big by not offering perfect shots. A tiny branch you dont see through the scope can deflect a bullet a long way. That buck you see may not ever stop. He has an agenda and it doesn't include standing still, broadside, in your shooting lane. Heavy for caliber premium bullets, (I like the .30 - 200 gr accubond in my Winmag), are worth the price difference. When the deer can be from 20 feet to 300 yards we are asking a lot of bullet design. Launching them from a magnum is asking even more. I complained once of bullet performance from a ballistic tip. The rep said, "in what part of the deer expiring did the bullet fail?" I shot back at him, "by blowing up and only penetrating 4". Is that what you designed it to do?"

In all the deer I've shoot in the head I can't remimber more then one ear being left on any of them. Would that mean all of my bullets failed?

I can understand if your a trophy hunter not taking a head shoot. I once did the same but I deciced the bucks were getting to small & the does to many. I hate to track & watching them die so that changed my style of shooting.

Tell me boys, is there a lot of good neck meat? You might try some neck shots if you're concerned about meat damage or your deer going too far.

We butchered a 220lb buck last week.... yeah there was allot of neck meat... the dang thing was huge. That's the thing about big buck deer, they have gigantic necks with about 30 pots worth of chili meat on them. It's dang good chili meat too. I ain't giving it up to save a few dollars on ammo.

In all the deer I've shoot in the head I can't remimber more then one ear being left on any of them. Would that mean all of my bullets failed?

I can understand if your a trophy hunter not taking a head shoot. I once did the same but I deciced the bucks were getting to small & the does to many. I hate to track & watching them die so that changed my style of shooting.

The vast majority of hunters are not proficient enough to take a clean head shot. The few that are have cold hands and are dealing with low light shooting conditions. Stick the variable of buck fever in there, and you have ruled out 90%+ of all hunters in the field.

But hey, if you don't mind passing on a bunch of shots or blowing half the deer apart, there is no reason to use decent ammo in a high powered rifle.

We do have spotter's watching during, and after each shot. It would be very irresponsible to take long shots without someone watching closely. I've seen plenty of hunter's lose a game animal by taking long shots without another set of eye's on the shot.

Ya, I won't go for neck shots either. Some consider the neck to be of little use for the dinner table, but I strongly disagree with that. I grind it into some tasty burger or make sausage with it. Throwing it away would be lazy and wasteful, just plain wrong in my opinion.

I agree that the neck meat is good. Maybe not for frying or grilling, but it's just fine for the crock pot. It's all the same when you slow cook it overnight, and it's all tasty.

I load nothing but Hornady, and hear all about "the bullet did not perform" but I have never had to track an animal. Where they stood is where they died, its more about shot placement and I try for high neck shots, and as for penetration with the 7mm RM I load for my brother and we have never recovered a bullet because they have always been through and through's, How much more penetration is needed???
High on the neck is THE BEST PLACE to shoot a deer. Right under the butt of the ear. If you are fortunate enough to have a shot at that area, it is THE PLACE to shoot a deer.

However, I did have an unusual experience with bullet performance many years ago. My father, my brother, and I were hunting mule deer in Northeastern Oregon. For some reason baron does were always common in that area, and some of those does were bigger than many nice bucks. We came across a small herd led by a GIANT doe. We stopped, I laid my 30-30 Topper Model 158 (same as current Handi Rifle) across the seat of my motorcycle, and took the rather easy 35-40 yard shot.

The deer dropped right in her tracks. She did not take even one step. I was shooting a 150 grain round nose bullet with a max load of 4895. When we got up to the deer it had what appeared to be an entrance wound in her left shoulder. It looked like I had shot her in the approximate center of the shoulder that was facing me. The rest of the trip I took **** off my dad, uncles, cousins, hell, even the women in camp!

When we got home and skinned the beast, GUESS WHAT! I hit that deer exactly where I aimed; at the butt of the ear, high one the neck. The bullet hit the spine, turned, traveled down the spine, turned again, and exited through the left front shoulder. There was not a single sign of fragmentation, and the exit wound was small enough to pass for an entrance wound. WIERD!

Saint Dennis
Launching them from a magnum is asking even more. I complained once of bullet performance from a ballistic tip. The rep said, "in what part of the deer expiring did the bullet fail?" I shot back at him, "by blowing up and only penetrating 4". Is that what you designed it to do?"

Back in the 90's I've experienced the exact same with my 300win mag velocities and Ballistic Tips. I've had em "pencil" through a deers boiler room through and through. Small exit hole no blood trail.

Next Deer I shot I hit him upper shoulder. "Explosive" results on impact, blew a crater large enough to cradle a soft ball in.

Will never use a BT on big game again

At this point I don't know how many mule deer I have killed, but its a bunch. After I got tired of messy gutting jobs and blood shot meat, I decided that a bullet to the brain was the best shot. I did after all have the gun and the skills to place a shot there, and I did hunt for the meat. Its just bang, plop. No wounded deer running off and it really doesn't matter what the bullet. From a 50 gr pill from a 222 to a 180 gr from a 300 win mag.

Of course there are times when you don't want to ruin the head, and times when a long range shot to the head is risky so we might take a body shot occasionally. Go for the heart. Any bullet around 120 grains up and travelling to 2800-3000 FPS will easily take out a deer sized animal if placed properly. I said earlier I didn't like bullets that came apart because they ruin meat, however I never had one of those bullets fail to kill the animal, if placed in the boiler room. They were in fact very deadly.

(I don't recommend the 222 for body shots)

Shot placement is the key.

Okay -- I'm about to say something controversial: So controversial it probably get me run off this board, and forever placed in The Hall of Shame.

I like BIG GUNS as much as the next guy. I own a S&W 29-2, and my next acquisition may very well be an H&R Buffalo Classic. (I love those things!!)

However, the subject of meat damage reminded me of THE FACT that the long obsolete 25-20 Winchester probably put more meat on American tables than all our high powered magnums combined. You don't need a canon to kill a deer. The best way to prevent excessive meat loss is to use an appropriate weapon.

That's my honest opinion. Now go ahead; flame away!

Your loads are running hot. Average speed ought to be around 3150fps according to current load information. That may give you super accuracy but it will also destablize a bullet on impact. Sierra is particularly unstable at high velocities. That is why they can out with the Pro-hunter to begin with...the Game King likes to explode at maxium velocity on thin skin game, like deer.

the Game King likes to explode at maxium velocity on thin skin game, like deer.

I may be wrong but don't deer have hide????? I thought animals that sweat out of thier noses have hides and those that sweat through their body have skins.... I know this has nothing to do with shot placement but may impact or help one make a decision on boolits..... Again, I may be wrong....

The Dove

7mm is a TON of gun for a deer. Any hunting bullet in optimal weight should do you fine. I would just avoid target bullets like Match Kings. Yeah, shot placement is THE important factor.

However, the subject of meat damage reminded me of THE FACT that the long obsolete 25-20 Winchester probably put more meat on American tables than all our high powered magnums combined.

Yes, and lets not forget the 30-30 Win. A very effective and popular round for putting meat on the table.

Lets face it, "meat hunters" learn how to shoot. Ammo cost and availability was a big factor to many in years past. My father would make a box of 30-30 cartridges last at least ten years, and he would bring home a deer every year. The first time he let me shoot the 30-30 it was at my first deer. He simply said, "Take a fine bead." Yes, the deer dropped in its tracks. Later the same day he let me shoot again and bag his deer too. Two shots, two deer. He was pleased, and its hard to tell how I felt. My introduction to big game hunting. I had learned to shoot by shooting the ground squirrels that ate the crops with a 22 LR. There again ammo cost and supply was a factor and Dad expected a good kill rate. Guns were a tool to get a job done, not toys.

Yes, and lets not forget the 30-30 Win. A very effective and popular round for putting meat on the table.

Lets face it, "meat hunters" learn how to shoot. Ammo cost and availability was a big factor to many in years past. My father would make a box of 30-30 cartridges last at least ten years, and he would bring home a deer every year. The first time he let me shoot the 30-30 it was at my first deer. He simply said, "Take a fine bead." Yes, the deer dropped in its tracks. Later the same day he let me shoot again and bag his deer too. Two shots, two deer. He was pleased, and its hard to tell how I felt. My introduction to big game hunting. I had learned to shoot by shooting the ground squirrels that ate the crops with a 22 LR. There again ammo cost and supply was a factor and Dad expected a good kill rate. Guns were a tool to get a job done, not toys.
For many years I hunted deer and elk with a Harrington & Richardson Topper Model 158. It's the same rifle they now market as the Handi Rifle. Back then it was only available in 30-30 Winchester, and we had 3 of them in the family. I have no clue how many deer and elk we took with the three rifles combined.

At the present time I am seriously considering a Handi Rifle for deer. I don't think I'll buy it chambered for 30-30. I have a special fondness for the 243 cartridge. That's plenty of gun for black tail deer, and in my part of the country you never know if a deer will step out of the heavy brush 15 feet away, or you'll spot one 200 yards away over on the next ridge top. The trajectory of the 243 probably makes it a better choice than the 30-30 in my little corner of the world.

Although, if I could get my hands on an original Topper Model 158, I would be delighted. The older-the better. The originals were tack driving machines, and would shoot just about any load well. In addition, they were works of art compared to a new Handi Rifle.

And by the way, you made a great post.

I appreciated the review on bullets and not sure you deserved some of the remarks that were posted in the aftermath. I have read some of our posts in the past and found that you know what's going on.

I was always curious as the reliability of the pro- hunters. I pretty much have always loaded Nosler BTs. Most of the time, I have got very good accuracy out of them. People remark that they ruin a lot of meat, but generally my point to aim is at the base of the neck and there is not much meat to ruin there. Of course in the real hunting world there is not always time to set up and make this shot, so you have got to go for the boiler room. My experience is that I have not suffered from a lot of meat damage through fragmentation. Granted you may find a hunk of lead here and there, but not as bad as people make it out to be. Of course I don't shoot for the loins or hind corners. If I can't get a good shot, I will pass. I have a few friends that load 130 gr speer HPs in 30 cals and report that it is devastating on deer. They are real country boys, good shots, and meat eaters. I'm sure that if any head fragments, it would be that, yet they use it effectively.

Getting back to my reason for posting this. I was always curious as to how the pro hunters performed. I have found that if I can't get the boat tail ballistic tips to shoot accurately, trying a flat base pro hunter can make a substancial difference. I know that ballistic tips are not supposed to be effective over 3200 or so fps, according to Nosler and wondered about the Sierras. I also realize that a 3300fps drops down to 3200 reasonable fast after exiting the muzzle. Do you have any input as to the pro hunters performance in the 3000 fps window? They are good shooting bullets and I just started using them, with no opportunity to shoot a deer with them yet.

Just wondering.

The 7mag is a super round, it's my favorite deer cartridge that I hunt with. I have been loading this round since 1973 and with almost everything available. One thing that I have found out for sure, if you are loading bullets that push 3000 fps you will have meat damage with a lot of the mid to light weight bullets. Some do better than others, a lot depends on the bullet, and the velocity at impact. The big 7 always kills quickly, unless you can't shoot for crap. My load of choice is the Nosler 160 Accubond loaded with 62 to 63 grains of IMR 7828, that's only clocking around 2800 to 2900 fps. in most 24+ inch sporter barrels. However this load shoots sub 1/2 MOA in my model 700 and sub MOA in The Savage 110, Browning Abolt and Weatherby that we have loaded for. No bullet blowups at any distances and that's close range out 400+ yards that we have made kills with. We've also taken several Caribou and bears with that load with same results. Easy on your shoulder and barrel I might add also.http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=138045&d=1299796102