Madison, WI PD changing weapons due to ammo costs!


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Hypnogator
November 20, 2011, 12:30 AM
The Madison, WI PD is apparently trading in their .45 GAP Glocks for .40 Glocks due to the decreased cost and increased availability of .40 S&W ammo. :what:

http://www.waff.com/story/16040239/the-cost-of-bullets-is-changing-things-with-madison-pd

I would think if they were doing so for pure economics, they would have gone to 9mm Glocks! :what::scrutiny:

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R.W.Dale
November 20, 2011, 01:00 AM
The Madison, WI PD is apparently trading in their .45 GAP Glocks for .40 Glocks due to the decreased cost and increased availability of .40 S&W ammo. :what:

http://www.waff.com/story/16040239/the-cost-of-bullets-is-changing-things-with-madison-pd

I would think if they were doing so for pure economics, they would have gone to 9mm Glocks! :what::scrutiny:

Hopefully these will find their way onto the surplus market. As I handled a full sized gap glock vs the acp version today and greatly preferred the 9mm sized frame you get with the gap

posted via tapatalk using android.

BinRat
November 20, 2011, 01:00 AM
If I'm reading the article correctly, it looks like the city is Madison, Alabama.

whalerman
November 20, 2011, 01:09 AM
Here in NY our state police just went TO the .45GAP. But then again here in NY we're flush with cash and have no accountability to the taxpayers. So even though the .40's were doing just fine, the .45GAP move added more ego to the force.

sigarms228
November 20, 2011, 01:19 AM
"The big benefit is that it's easy to get and that it's not in short supply"

"Every little bit counts so this will save the department at least $3,000 to $4,000 a year."

I am reading into it that it is much much more an issue of being able to get the ammo. Saving 3-4 grand a year is pretty much peanuts for any city - even Mayberry. There are also costs involved with turning in existing weapons and issuing new weapons that would eat up that 3-4 grand in no time.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 20, 2011, 01:23 AM
I am reading into it that it is much much more an issue of being able to get the ammo. Saving 3-4 grand a year is pretty much peanuts for any city. There are also costs involved with turning in existing weapons and issuing new weapons that would eat up that 3-4 grand in no time.

They save money in the future, plus Glock does to trades for a department's current service arm, not sure what they do with them though. A local PD traded their 4506s for Glocks and by trading them in, they got new Glocks for roughly $150 a piece.

legion3
November 20, 2011, 07:25 AM
Are we sure these are 45GAPs?

The way the article is written and knowing how the media botches even simple things concerning reporting on guns...

"Glock .45 caliber to a Glock .40 caliber." No models are mentioned and the word Glock before 45 caliber may not mean the Glock Automatic Pistol cartridge.

This could meant the spokesman said currently we carry Glocks in 45 caliber and now we are moving to glock's in 40 caliber.

Could these have been G21's?

I mean they probably are GAPS since ammo availability is an issue

PabloJ
November 20, 2011, 08:33 AM
Hopefully these will find their way onto the surplus market. As I handled a full sized gap glock vs the acp version today and greatly preferred the 9mm sized frame you get with the gap

posted via tapatalk using android.
I would buy one if the price was right.

leper65
November 20, 2011, 08:56 AM
Marklsupply in Pittsburgh has a few G37 police trade ins for sale

http://www.marklsupply.com/Used-Firearms_c_481.html


Since these are trade-ins (used) you do not have to be a first responder.

kgpcr
November 20, 2011, 09:01 AM
I dont see any reason for owning a GAP. I have nothing against it but i dont see any advantages over my ACP. I also love my .40

dprice3844444
November 20, 2011, 09:06 AM
45 gap=45 acp punch for smaller hands

Walt Sherrill
November 20, 2011, 09:12 AM
Whether its .45 GAP or .45 ACP, it seems more a "political" move on the part of the PD than anything else. Generally speaking, PD personnel (LEOs) shoot very little, and then only when doing their periodic qualifications. The actual savings in ammo cost will be modest.

But, since they'll be getting NEW Glocks for older ones, it's probably a safe move.

Wish I could pick up one of the .45 GAP guns from that police department at a good price -- as the cost of .45 GAP in bulk is sometimes a bit cheaper than .45 ACP.

REASON for .45 GAP. In my case, I find the full-size Glock in .45 too damned thick, and I don't generally shoot 1911s all that well. My CZ97 was larger than I liked. I do like the Glock 35 and 17, so the Glocks in .45 GAP would likely be a good fit, for me.

jackpinesavages
November 20, 2011, 09:39 AM
WOW, some folks REALLY need to learn how to read:

A.) It's Madison ALABAMA.

B.) They're talking about switching from .45. The article says nothing about GAP pistols anywhere. :banghead:

Hypnogator
November 20, 2011, 09:55 AM
A.) It's Madison ALABAMA.

B.) They're talking about switching from .45. The article says nothing about GAP pistols anywhere.

You're right -- My Bad, it's not Wisconsin. :o

However the article talks about Glock .45 ammo at $40 a box. Don't think .45 ACP runs anywhere near that. :p

mgmorden
November 20, 2011, 09:58 AM
The article does say that it turned the weapons over to "a company" - along with 200 other seized guns - so that the new guns won't cost anything.

I wonder what "company" they're referring to. Might be worth asking (or filing of FOIA Request) to find out so that we could determine if it's a company that does surplus web sales.

mgmorden
November 20, 2011, 10:07 AM
However the article talks about Glock .45 ammo at $40 a box. Don't think .45 ACP runs anywhere near that.

It's government. Working in government myself (Information Technology), sometimes costs don't make sense. For example, our typical replacement computer from Dell runs $1800. That's just for your run of the mill everyday office worker to do basic stuff throughout the day. There are a ton of configs - even if we wanted to still stick with Dell - that will do the same job just as well for less than $750. More money is spent . . . pretty much just because. Trust me, in just about every area of government there are some things that could be done to reduce the budget. You just need a bit more of a penny-pincher attitude. :)

jackpinesavages
November 20, 2011, 10:16 AM
.45 Duty carry is about $40 a box. It has nothing to do with excessive governemnt expenditures.

My 9mm Duty ammo. is the Federal +p 124gr JHP. Price it out. It aint WWB prices at Wally World.

Anyway, this is suppsed to be THR, let's pay a little more attention to the facts, even if they were written by a socialist newspaper. :D

mgmorden
November 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
.45 Duty carry is about $40 a box. It has nothing to do with excessive governemnt expenditures.

Just doing a quick check, MagTech Guardian Gold .45 is just over $18 per box. Hornady Critical Defense .45 is just over $22 per box. Depending on which flavor stokes your fire, there are a myriad of defense loads for between $15 and $25 per box. Yes, those are for boxes of 20, but almost all premium ammo is sold that way.

Aside from that though, the statement was made in the article that the new .40S&W ammo would be $20 per box. I no world does .40S&W ammo of equivalent quality come in at 50% less than .45ACP.

wlewisiii
November 20, 2011, 11:36 AM
Just as a point of reference, Madison WI requires the following, according to their online policy handbook:

Specifications for Primary Duty Firearm
The approved primary duty handguns for members of the department will be:
1. Glock Models 17 (9mm), 19 (9mm), 26 (9mm), 22 (.40 cal.), 23 (.40 cal.), 27
(.40), and 21 (.45 cal.) and 30 (.45 cal.) equipped with either the 8 lb. trigger
connector or the 5 lb. trigger connecter with the standard New York spring.
2. Any Officer that carries a Glock Sub-Compact Model as their primary duty
weapon must use a magazine extender when in Military Uniform.
Officers currently qualified with other semi-auto pistols will be allowed to continue
to remain qualified with those weapons authorized in policy as of January 1, 1996.
Those officers wishing to change primary firearms after this date will be required to
change to the approved Glock models above.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 20, 2011, 11:57 AM
Just doing a quick check, MagTech Guardian Gold .45 is just over $18 per box. Hornady Critical Defense .45 is just over $22 per box. Depending on which flavor stokes your fire, there are a myriad of defense loads for between $15 and $25 per box. Yes, those are for boxes of 20, but almost all premium ammo is sold that way.

LE doesn't buy ammo by 20 or 25 round boxes, they buy it in 50 round boxes marked for LE sales only. You can actually find these for sale at police distrubutors cheaper than usual from what I hear.

R.W.Dale
November 20, 2011, 12:19 PM
45 gap=45 acp punch for smaller hands

That shares all the same holsters w someone setup for small framed glocks.



posted via tapatalk using android.

mgmorden
November 20, 2011, 03:31 PM
LE doesn't buy ammo by 20 or 25 round boxes, they buy it in 50 round boxes marked for LE sales only. You can actually find these for sale at police distrubutors cheaper than usual from what I hear.

Refer to the second half of the statement that you didn't quote then. If the .40S&W ammo is half the cost, then the math still doesn't add up. If you're talking about equal sized boxes and equal quality ammo, then .40S&W is not half the cost.

jackpinesavages
November 20, 2011, 09:11 PM
So, you know what the LE ammo. discount is, or how many rounds they are buying it in? My agency buys it in 50 round boxes of +P JHPs. We're not looking at SD/HD loads bought at Wal-Mart, no offense.

This is not a debate about ammo. cost: it is a glaringly misread article which is the actual point, at this point.






Just doing a quick check, MagTech Guardian Gold .45 is just over $18 per box. Hornady Critical Defense .45 is just over $22 per box. Depending on which flavor stokes your fire, there are a myriad of defense loads for between $15 and $25 per box. Yes, those are for boxes of 20, but almost all premium ammo is sold that way.

Aside from that though, the statement was made in the article that the new .40S&W ammo would be $20 per box. I no world does .40S&W ammo of equivalent quality come in at 50% less than .45ACP.

mgmorden
November 20, 2011, 09:40 PM
I haven't bought ammo at "Wal-mart" in quite a while, nor was I quoting Wal-mart prices. Heck I don't even think Wal-mart actually sells real self defense ammo. My point was that the numbers can be whatever you make of it. Knowing very well how government procurement works (I don't buy their ammo, but I do buy computers for local law enforcement), I know that most costs can be whatever you want. If they want to use "saving money" on ammo as the reason for this they'll quote the highest price box of whatever they're using now vs the lowest priced box of whatever they want to switch to.

I repeat: when comparing apples to apples, .40 is not half the price of .45 ACP. The article specifically states that a box of the current ammo is $40 vs $20 for the new ammo. Either we're talking about .45 GAP, or they're simply adjusting their numbers to justify a purchase.

Jim NE
November 20, 2011, 11:31 PM
If I'm reading the article correctly, it looks like the city is Madison, Alabama.


Makes sense. I'm having a hard time visualizing any governmental agency in Madison, WI carrying .45's, let alone shooting them at bad guys.

wlewisiii
November 21, 2011, 09:29 AM
Sorry to disappoint you, but we do have extremely professional police here. If you care to know what they are authorized, please look up thread.

jackpinesavages
November 25, 2011, 08:53 AM
"My point was that the numbers can be whatever you make of it. Knowing very well how government procurement works (I don't buy their ammo, but I do buy computers for local law enforcement), I know that most costs can be whatever you want. If they want to use "saving money" on ammo as the reason for this they'll quote the highest price box of whatever they're using now vs the lowest priced box of whatever they want to switch to."


Thanks for making my point. The numbers being used for LE Ammo costs are unfamiliar to you.

a.)Costs of equipment being purchased all depend on who it is the Dept. which has been tasked with the research and procurement, for which project. No, not all governemnt and/or Law Enforcement agencies just spend the taxpayer's monies without respect to the source of the money: tax payers. It is unfortunate that you are familiar with that aspect of an agency in buying computer equipment. However, to apply the logic of that agency's computer buying to ammo. costs for duty weapons is without a foundation for debate.

b.) Your ammo. examples stated have nothing to do with LE duty carry, LE purchase prices when buying in extraordinary bulk, nor are they close to type or brand names of quality duty worthy ammo..

c.) Absolutely, I agree; numbers don't lie, people lie. However, if you are unfamiliar with LE Ammo. purchasing, nor even remotely have an idea of which ammo. is used please refrain from making statements without foundation that also insinuate that all LE agencies are wasteful. That crap gets really old-if you want to villify the spending habits of LE agencies take it to an anti-LE website.

ugaarguy
November 25, 2011, 12:21 PM
That shares all the same holsters w someone setup for small framed glocks.
I'm sorry, but that's not true. Some Glock 9mm/ .40 SW / .357 SIG leather holsters will stretch to fit the .45 GAP Glocks, but not all 9mm/ .40 SW/ .357 SIG Glock holsters will fit their .45 GAP counterparts. The GAP pistols have wider slides, so the dimensions are not the same. This is a particularly important issue for LE because they use retention holsters that are very precisely fitted to the pistol to work properly. Even the Blackhawk Serpa is different between them.

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