Baiting


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Strap assassin
November 24, 2011, 11:53 PM
Where I live in Alabama sometimes it seems that the deer completely disappear or become nocturnal and alot of people use bait to lure them into there area. What are your opinions on baiting and do you think it should be legal?

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Art Eatman
November 25, 2011, 08:13 AM
No reason it should not be legal. Some folks don't like to sit and hope, day after day. Not all terrain/vegetation is conducive to sneaky-snaking around--and that presumes the skill to do so.

And nobody's forcing anybody to bait. Those who don't want to, don't have to.

Loyalist Dave
November 25, 2011, 08:35 AM
Baiting is actually part of the American hunting tradition for big game. Now before folks douse me with gas and toss a lighted match..., it's well documented that longhunters, the fellows who went out to hunt deer and bison and elk for leather, and who gave birth to the iconic image of the leather clad frontiersman, regularly staked out salt licks for big game.

[but dude that's a natural geologic land feature, not "baiting"]

It's also documented that the famous hunter, Meshak Browning 1781-1859, author of Forty-Four years in The Life of a Hunter placed salt out to attract deer.

There is really no difference in hunting deer over bait, or hunting the gap between the corn or soybeans and the woodline? Crop or bait, they are both man made.

I don't hunt over bait, as I don't need to, having found an area between food, and water, that the deer bed down inside, so I wait for them to get up in the morning, and take them then..., if they have decided to bed down there the night before..., it doesn't always work. :D

LD

kbbailey
November 25, 2011, 08:45 AM
Baiting is a touchy subject here in Illinois. The DNR plants sunflowers and hosts a huge dove hunting event here at our local state park. Hunting over bait such as corn, salt, beans,...anything placed for hunting is illegal.
I don't like to sit and hope. In fact, I hate it. What we do isn't hunting...it's waiting. When you only have 10-20-maybe 40 acre woods to hunt...you don't have much choice.
Food plots are ok, we have made some on our property. It is hard for a small 1/2-1 acre food plot to compete with hundreds of acres of shelled corn fields where ears of corn are lying on the ground. You try what you can to keep deer in front of you instead of your neighbor.

buck460XVR
November 25, 2011, 10:26 AM
In many states baiting is legal and practiced by many. But it is not hunting, it is baiting. Hunting is using woodsmanship and other amassed skills. It takes no skill or woodsmanship to sit over a bait pile.

Zombiphobia
November 25, 2011, 10:33 AM
It takes no skill or woodsmanship to sit over a bait pile.


Sitting quietly and learning to use the wind to your advantage and/or masking your scent in natural ways requires skill and patience. I'm not arguing that it's 'hunting', just that not everyone is cut out for it.

hardluk1
November 25, 2011, 11:42 AM
strap assassin Now you kinow you can not bait in alabama. You do know that right. That why you plant or pay to leave some of the crops standing. Corn and iron peas, work well. But I well say screwing the lid to a can of peanut butter to a tree and then cut the bottom off works really good for preseason training.. When a group of us hunted there we paided a local farmer to plant what was normal crops for deer to eat . Just a couple rows scatterd around the property here and there.

kbbailey
November 25, 2011, 11:43 AM
I know what Buck 460 means...and I agree to a certain extent.
If you want to slip quietly through the forest in your moccassins around here....you will soon find yourself under someone else's deer stand (unfortunately).

buck460XVR
November 25, 2011, 01:14 PM
Sitting quietly and learning to use the wind to your advantage and/or masking your scent in natural ways requires skill and patience. I'm not arguing that it's 'hunting', just that not everyone is cut out for it.

Deer trained to come into bait piles are used to human scent. They have come to associate it with fresh bait. No need really to worry about the wind or cover scent, especially at gun hunting ranges. Most bait pile hunters sit in elevated boxes, so even sitting still isn't necessary. Only skill needed there is carpentry skills when erecting the stand. I have no problem with "sitting on stand" when it consists of scouting an area and waiting in ambush to take an animal that is either trying to escape or using natural game trails to get to and from bedding/feeding areas. Training the local deer to come to a specific spot by dumping a food that is more desirable than locally available, and then shooting them is basically shooting a domesticated animal.

Again. if a person wants to shoot an animal over a pile of bait and it's legal, I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with them calling it a "hunt".

Sam1911
November 25, 2011, 04:56 PM
Agreed, shooting deer over bait is not hunting. Shooting deer in a cornfield or beanfield is not hunting. Shooting deer over a salt lick, or at a water hole is not hunting, either. In fact, shooting a deer any place it naturally might want to be -- or that you can induce it to THINK it wants to be -- is not "hunting." That's just shooting. Not sporting at all.

It's only really HUNTING if you manage to shoot a deer somewhere where it has NO natural or man-made desire to be. So, because I am a true hunter, not just a shooter, I only hunt sitting in my living room, while playing Wagner at full volume. I figure if a deer can pick my locked door and navigate down my hallways, and present itself naturally in front of my chair, THEN and only then is it truly a fair chase, because I've not exerted any pressure or influence on that animal to be in that location.

(I will also accept as the true sport of hunting: any deer shot at depths greater than one fathom of water, in an executive washroom of a Fortune 500 corporate office located on any level exceeding the 10th floor of a downtown office building, on board a commercial airliner that has achieved full cruising altitude and speed, within the confines of the debris reservoir of a Dyson brand household vacuum cleaner, or in outer space.)

Supertac45
November 25, 2011, 05:49 PM
It isn't hunting.

Ankeny
November 25, 2011, 05:56 PM
Baiting is not legal in Wyoming. Apparently it isn't considered "fair chase". That said, I know there are certain parts of the country where the vegetation is so thick that spot and stalk is impossible. If faced with the choice of staying at home or sitting in a stand next to a feeder, I would load up the bin with some corn and grab my rifle. :D

TrailWolf
November 25, 2011, 06:00 PM
I don't consider baiting hunting or ethical if you are a sport hunter.

hardluk1
November 25, 2011, 06:20 PM
Now we have hunting snobs!!! If it legal in the states laws I will sit in a stand and kill deer off under apple tree or pile of apple or corn feid or pile of corn I will do that so I can have deer to eat. When you have to plan time to hunt and travel some distance to hunt what ever is legal works for me.

788Ham
November 25, 2011, 08:01 PM
Wagner ? Now thats some fancy hunting pard! I like your style, no clumsy, mud covered boots to deal with either. I'd never get to shoot much, but never heard it put the way you've done ! Might join you some season.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 25, 2011, 08:15 PM
I see we have a few hypocrites in this thread. Basically, as a couple of others have kind of danced around in saying, If you hunt ANY known food source, I.E. next to or in between a corn field, soybean field, clover field, alfalfa field, OR if you hunt in, or close to, a stand of Oak trees with acorn mast falling, then guess what,,, You are hunting over BAIT! Period. No if's and's or but's about it. If you are smart enough to figure out that a deer eats a certain type of food in a certain area and at a certain time, you are hunting over bait.

While the TRUE definition of bait is using a certain food or lure to entice an animal or fish to come to a certain location, one may also discern the definition to be, using a natural food source to pattern the movements of a specific game animal. If you hunt a water source, you are hunting over bait as well. If you are hunting over ANY natural source that has caused a specific pattern of a game animal, you are hunting over bait. Say what you wish, but before you go saying there is no skill needed when hunting over bait, try hunting in South Texas for white tail without cutting a scendaro or putting out a feeder. Cudos to anyone that can successfully tag out deer without them. Same goes for MANY locations in the US. I'll bet the hypocrites are the ones hunting in places like South Central PA where the deer damn near jump into the back of your truck and slit their own throats. (I've hunted that area many years so yes I know how they are)

RhinoDefense
November 25, 2011, 09:42 PM
Agreed, shooting deer over bait is not hunting. Shooting deer in a cornfield or beanfield is not hunting. Shooting deer over a salt lick, or at a water hole is not hunting, either. In fact, shooting a deer any place it naturally might want to be -- or that you can induce it to THINK it wants to be -- is not "hunting." That's just shooting. Not sporting at all.
Those are all methods of hunting.

Art Eatman
November 25, 2011, 10:37 PM
Somebody persuade me that a cougar waiting in ambush isn't hunting.

And all that "sport" hunting means is that you don't really have to get your meat by hunting. IOW it's not subsistence or survival hunting.

The time I sneaked up on a fat little buck and tossed a rock onto his rump from ten feet away was as enjoyable a moment of sport hunting as I've ever had. I'd be willing to bet he didn't see it in the same light, however. :D:D:D

T Bran
November 25, 2011, 11:03 PM
If it is legal in your state go for it. Since you can only hunt over bait during hunting season it sounds like hunting to me. If you choose to handicap yourself by abstaining my hat is off to you but dont expect me to do the same.
T

lowerunit411
November 26, 2011, 07:32 AM
the best bait i know about are the azaleas planted around our house....no deer in the woods..they are all comfortably in the suburbs.

hardluk1
November 26, 2011, 08:41 AM
Shoot them from the lounge chair!!! Nope atleast put the climber up a tree in the yard!!

I have a hill side of Honey suckel next to use and a deer trail through it and by our garage down to the creek where they cross but nooo hunting at home. Yet. That would also be baiting right??

alsaqr
November 26, 2011, 08:48 AM
Baiting, except for turkey, is legal in OK. i do not hunt over bait, feeders or game plots; others may do as they wish with no criticism from me.

We do supplement the deer diet with feeders. Last spring and summer in OK was very hot and dry: The deer suffered greatly; many does lost their fawns to starvation. i'm convinced that our feeders kept some of those deer alive.

kyle1974
November 26, 2011, 11:07 AM
Deer trained to come into bait piles are used to human scent. They have come to associate it with fresh bait. No need really to worry about the wind or cover scent, especially at gun hunting ranges. Most bait pile hunters sit in elevated boxes, so even sitting still isn't necessary. Only skill needed there is carpentry skills when erecting the stand. I have no problem with "sitting on stand" when it consists of scouting an area and waiting in ambush to take an animal that is either trying to escape or using natural game trails to get to and from bedding/feeding areas. Training the local deer to come to a specific spot by dumping a food that is more desirable than locally available, and then shooting them is basically shooting a domesticated animal.

Again. if a person wants to shoot an animal over a pile of bait and it's legal, I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with them calling it a "hunt".

I have a problem with Internet warriors being the end all on what IS and what IS NOT. just because it's different doesn't mean it's not hunting.

buck460XVR
November 26, 2011, 11:16 AM
I have a problem with Internet warriors being the end all on what IS and what IS NOT. just because it's different doesn't mean it's not hunting.

Yep....and just because one shoots an animal with a gun doesn't make it a hunt. As I said in my post that was deleted(your last one containing a personal attack was also) If you prefer to hunt over a bait pile and it is legal in your area so be it. As a fellow outdoorsman I will support your right to do it, but I still don't consider it a hunt. Again as I said in another post, I was just replying to the question asked by the OP.

What are your opinions on baiting

I did not attack you or any other poster personally or call you names. We are all adults and have a right to our opinion. Name calling, IMHO is not really a debatical tactic used by adults.

MCgunner
November 26, 2011, 11:23 AM
So, because I am a true hunter, not just a shooter, I only hunt sitting in my living room, while playing Wagner at full volume.

Now I have visions of helicopters (Apocalypse Now) in my head. :D

Feeders are a way of life in Texas, even out west where i really prefer to spot and stalk. But, on my tiny little plot of heavily brushed up land next to a big ranch, I have 2 feeders and stands and, yeah, I call it hunting. If you don't,. I won't bother to argue with you as you've likely no experience doing it and have no clue. :rolleyes: You have your mind set on the subject ant that's that.

Down here, feeders are a multi million dollar industry and feed corn is sold at convenience stores as well as Walmart and Academy and feed stores. Gas up and buy a hundred pounds of feed. :D When I can, I like to walk and spot and stalk, but I can't around here. As I age, I am getting to the point that I CAN'T walk rough country the way I once could and I rather appreciate a swivel seat on a tripod. :D You folks that think feeders aren't ethical, i guess you're just going to quit hunting when you can't get around like a youngster anymore? You gonna sit at home and talk about how it WAS back when you could go hunting? Not me. So long as I can climb that tripod, I'll be hunting. Duck hunting is getting harder and harder for me now days. There'll come a time, I guess, when I'll have to hire someone to take me out on the bay to a blind in an air boat, but I'm still able to hunt public land on foot, but it's getting harder and harder on me. Every morning when I get up, my knees snap, my back crackles, and my hip pops. Aging ain't for wimps.

MCgunner
November 26, 2011, 11:59 AM
the best bait i know about are the azaleas planted around our house....no deer in the woods..they are all comfortably in the suburbs.

A rooftop bow stand, perhaps. :D

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 26, 2011, 12:04 PM
Bedroom window with the screen taken out and a good bench rest set up :) Wake up, clear eyeballs, put on the ear muffs or ear plugs, look out window, spot bambi's daddy eating wifes azaleas, load rifle, shoot bambis daddy, make wife happy, dress deer, eat breakfast!

I call that a perfect hunt! http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShC6BgORPFqzSr8AaJvXYH9cvjmmK_fRSSbuicESw4hvGBLLzXtqhMd742

kyle1974
November 26, 2011, 12:10 PM
Yep....and just because one shoots an animal with a gun doesn't make it a hunt. As I said in my post that was deleted(your last one containing a personal attack was also) If you prefer to hunt over a bait pile and it is legal in your area so be it. As a fellow outdoorsman I will support your right to do it, but I still don't consider it a hunt. Again as I said in another post, I was just replying to the question asked by the OP.



I did not attack you or any other poster personally or call you names. We are all adults and have a right to our opinion. Name calling, IMHO is not really a debatical tactic used by adults.

Right, you didn't attack anyone, just made an arrogant, holier than thou comment discrediting the way that people hunt in many parts of the country. I guess it's hunting to shoot a buck in its bed from 300 yards away, but if you shoot a deer at 15 yards that came to corn, it's not hunting? Working off a bait source, natural or man made is hunting, regardless o what you think.

It's people like you that are the threat to hunters with your egotistical attitudes. Not PETA.

Bobson
November 26, 2011, 12:29 PM
One problem here is nobody bothered defining bait.

I agree with Freedom_Fighter_in_IL: If you hunt ANY known food source, I.E. next to or in between a corn field, soybean field, clover field, alfalfa field, OR if you hunt in, or close to, a stand of Oak trees with acorn mast falling, You are hunting over BAIT!

I drove from Phoenix to San Antonio a few months back. Along the way, we saw plots of land (in Texas) with giant metal feeders, and visible tree stands (or man-made tripod stands) are placed around those feeders, at varying distances. All of this is clearly visible from the highway.

Both of these examples include baiting, but they aren't the same thing; an honest man can tell the difference. If you want to claim they're the same thing, that's just fine. By the way:

I have a problem with Internet warriors being the end all on what IS and what IS NOT.
This is literally the dumbest thing I've ever read in my entire life.

What part of stating one's opinion in a discussion of ethics makes one person an "Internet warrior," while another person is somehow more worthy of sharing his opinion?? Is it based on whether or not my username is bold? Is it based on the number of people who agree with a particular side?

kyle1974
November 26, 2011, 12:34 PM
Lol. The argument of the self righteous.

I suppose dove hunting isnt real hunting because you don't spot and stalk them. Duck hunting isn't real because you hunt over decoys.

What is "real" fishing?

Lol

MCgunner
November 26, 2011, 12:35 PM
Yep....and just because one shoots an animal with a gun doesn't make it a hunt.

Well, opinions are like.....

I could make a case that "hunting" with a firearm of any kind is not hunting, especially across canyons and such, it's "shooting". I could make a case that you're not truly hunting unless you use an atlatl or maybe a hand made bow with no wheels on it. I could make a case that you have to jump on the deer, bite the windpipe with your teeth, and suffocate the deer like lions do or it's not hunting.

Opinions are like......

Have a good day.

Bobson
November 26, 2011, 12:47 PM
Lol. The argument of the self righteous.
Inferring that self-righteousness is a bad thing is the same as inferring that rape and child molestation is just fine. You clearly lack an understanding of basic logic.

kyle1974
November 26, 2011, 12:54 PM
One thing is for certain, you can't grasp the difference in an opinion and a declaration or determination of ethics.

Have a nice day, in spite of yourself.

MCgunner
November 26, 2011, 01:00 PM
Closed...banned...whatever :rolleyes:

ZeroJunk
November 26, 2011, 01:12 PM
I would like to turn some of these stalk hunters in to this 1760 acre thicket that I have. Bring your knee pads. And, when you come out the other side and we get you to the hospital and get some blood back in you we can discuss how you did.

kyle1974
November 26, 2011, 01:17 PM
I would like to turn some of these stalk hunters in to this 1760 acre thicket that I have. Bring your knee pads. And, when you come out the other side and we get you to the hospital and get some blood back in you we can discuss how you did.

They could do it. These guys are real hunters. For real. Not like me or millions of other people that use bait.

:D

buck460XVR
November 26, 2011, 01:43 PM
Well, opinions are like.....

I could make a case that "hunting" with a firearm of any kind is not hunting, especially across canyons and such, it's "shooting". I could make a case that you're not truly hunting unless you use an atlatl or maybe a hand made bow with no wheels on it. I could make a case that you have to jump on the deer, bite the windpipe with your teeth, and suffocate the deer like lions do or it's not hunting.



Yes you could, and that would certainly be your right to express your opinion on a public forum. Like you said, opinions are like.......

But again....the OP asked for opinions in the start of this thread. Some have made valid arguments in defense of their opinions and some have resorted to name calling and condescending posts about hunting while listening to classic music. They are cute responses, but not realistic. They are a attempt to cloud an issue when they have no valid argument or anything of informative value to add to the discussion. I have yet to hear any valid argument of where there is any skill involved while sitting over a pile of bait. I assume this is because there is none. Yes, there have been reasons given as to why there is not a better option for killing a deer, but nothing about what skill is involved. For those that have no other option than to dump bait(unless one is handicapped or incapacitated by age), I feel sorry for you. You are missing out on a wonderful experience. Food deposited by nature or normal agriculture practices are not considered forms or bait. Hauling pails of shell corn and specific mixes meant for attracting deer to a specific spot is. This isn't about egos, this is about ethics and what constitutes a hunt. I was raised in a state where any form of baiting was illegal up until a few years ago. It still is illegal in many areas of the state. Where it is legal is is often abused. According to the local warden, altho only about 10% of the local hunters bait, 80% of the citations he gives are for violations around bait. This includes not only too much bait in too many locations, but the shooting before and after legal hunting hours. This is not my opinion, but fact. These kind of ethics are what gives me a bad taste in my mouth for baiting. I realized that not all baiters are violators, but when they tend to get the majority of violations, it tells me something.

This year marks my 46th year to hunt deer, both with bow and gun. I figure I am entitled to my opinions based of my experience without having to have folks that don't know me call me names because they don't agree with my level of ethics. There ain't no one here that can afford a computer, internet access and the time to sit and post on a gun forum that needs to kill a deer to feed their family. It is all about the sport and the pride that comes from outwitting a worthy quarry. I doubt that I could ever achieve this sittin' over a pile of bait.............and yes, it is my opinion. Get over it.

sKunkT
November 26, 2011, 01:58 PM
I sometimes bait just to see if anything will eat it. A gallon or two of corn once every couple of weeks isn't going to change a deer's habits- at least where I hunt. It is just fun to me. If I happen to be hunting and something is eating my bait, I will not feel unethical at all if I shoot it.

What I do is legal. If you don't like it, I won't try to make you like it.

Zombiphobia
November 26, 2011, 04:10 PM
What is "real" fishing

casting nets, and using speers and arrows and bare hands.... I've heard tales of dynamite being used...but since we can't use exploding bullets and arrow heads for deer, I reckon they aint legal for fishes either....

btw, I don't fully agree nor disagree with baiting game. it's got it's good points and bad as well. I ended up having to do it to get meat this year so I can't say anything bad about it except it gets expensive

kyle1974
November 26, 2011, 04:21 PM
I'm all clear now. Corn that is lying on the ground that was planted by humans = not bait

Corn put on ground with a bucket= unethical baiting/cheating.

Glad someone cleared that up for me.

hardluk1
November 26, 2011, 04:40 PM
Some here sound as if they are of the righteous hunters. Its a good thing they the time to invest, So many that like to hunt and eat wild game don't have time to invest in scouting or even finding a proper to place to do so and use what the law gives them to harvest wild game. So for the righteous ,be very proud of how great you live an stop try berate others. That is how it comes across.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 26, 2011, 07:03 PM
But again....the OP asked for opinions in the start of this thread. Some have made valid arguments in defense of their opinions and some have resorted to name calling and condescending posts about hunting while listening to classic music. They are cute responses, but not realistic. They are a attempt to cloud an issue when they have no valid argument or anything of informative value to add to the discussion. I have yet to hear any valid argument of where there is any skill involved while sitting over a pile of bait. I assume this is because there is none. Yes, there have been reasons given as to why there is not a better option for killing a deer, but nothing about what skill is involved. For those that have no other option than to dump bait(unless one is handicapped or incapacitated by age), I feel sorry for you. You are missing out on a wonderful experience.

Wow, and here I was thinking that my post earlier was quite informative myself. Even my "almost" 8 year old understood it. I guess you are just a little too close minded to get the drift of this very easy to understand post

I see we have a few hypocrites in this thread. Basically, as a couple of others have kind of danced around in saying, If you hunt ANY known food source, I.E. next to or in between a corn field, soybean field, clover field, alfalfa field, OR if you hunt in, or close to, a stand of Oak trees with acorn mast falling, then guess what,,, You are hunting over BAIT! Period. No if's and's or but's about it. If you are smart enough to figure out that a deer eats a certain type of food in a certain area and at a certain time, you are hunting over bait.

While the TRUE definition of bait is using a certain food or lure to entice an animal or fish to come to a certain location, one may also discern the definition to be, using a natural food source to pattern the movements of a specific game animal. If you hunt a water source, you are hunting over bait as well. If you are hunting over ANY natural source that has caused a specific pattern of a game animal, you are hunting over bait. Say what you wish, but before you go saying there is no skill needed when hunting over bait, try hunting in South Texas for white tail without cutting a scendaro or putting out a feeder. Cudos to anyone that can successfully tag out deer without them. Same goes for MANY locations in the US. I'll bet the hypocrites are the ones hunting in places like South Central PA where the deer damn near jump into the back of your truck and slit their own throats. (I've hunted that area many years so yes I know how they are)

Now again I will pose the question for you. Have you EVER hunted areas such as South Texas? If not, then maybe you should hold off on your UNEDUCATED opinions and beratement of others. Do not cast stones at what some HAVE to do to be successful at harvesting deer.

kyle1974
November 26, 2011, 08:15 PM
perhaps you could explain the great skill in sitting in a tree stand, and shooting a deer that happens to come along?

Strap assassin
November 27, 2011, 09:11 AM
If you have never hunted in Alabama you have no idea how hard it is. Its not like other parts of the country where you get to pick which deer you want out of a whole field full. Sometimes you just need a little help seeing the deer. Im all for baiting because here its mostly pines and all the acorns are gone by thanksgiving. If to don't keep some kind of food source in your area the deer will leave. Cause the people that are hunting right next to you are baiting so you mine as well put it out to.

hardluk1
November 27, 2011, 09:36 AM
Stalking and stand hunting both have there place and I like many have done plenty of both year ago. Nothing is more crazy than being in a palmetto patch with several hogs that you and they did not know were there. Or study'n a deer at distance being sure it what you want and then make a good controled shot at longer distance. Now if your a heathy person and can drag or pack a deer out over some distance then stalk your butt off . If your not healthy and can not drag a deer out or walk and stlk around for most of the day then I will darn well do what the states laws alow. Baiting and all.

If you also have a child or grandchild that you wish to introduce to hunting. You go right ahead and walk a kid around in the wood most of the day and you will have one or things happen. They will never hunt with you again or never hunt period. Now if you own or have the rights to enough land that allows you to be a stalk hunter you go right ahead .

I can't think of how many times over 45 years I have watched a stalk hunter walk across public land and see them with there orange vest or camo stalking along flushing deer like crazy. Sitting on high ground glassing into a valley and watch some joe hunter flush a group of elk they could do nothing about. Or stalk up in and area that I thought no one was there and have another hunter stalking up too. Done it in 5 states when younger. Nothing s*cks more than to slip into the woods for a nice day of hunting at 5 am in the middle of know where USA and when the sun creeps up you study the land and see 5 or 6 orange vest or camo around you.. Thats when a group of us started leaseing land setting rules and stand or ground hunt but with for the most part. 10 hunters and a thousand acers. If you have very good relations with some hunters you might stalk out an area moveing toward your hunting buddy useing your radios. Thats the extent of my stalking anymore. Stalking public land is how hunters get killed and not many have the private land to do it on.

Art Eatman
November 27, 2011, 09:52 AM
I strongly object to the rude phrasing and harsh, arbitrary nature of the commentary from some of those who don't like hunting from a stand or over bait.

It's one thing to disagree. That's fine. But an arrogantly stated opinion is pretty dog-gone Low Road.

I don't see how watching over bait is any different from watching at a water-point such as a spring or a stock-tank. Or watching at any food source of any sort, including a small oak motte where acorns are likely.

Looks like to me that too many folks are afraid of anything that's different from their own little world. Happy to make a career of picking fly-poop out of pepper...

ZeroJunk
November 27, 2011, 12:33 PM
I crept up to within 70 yards of a mediocre 10 point and a doe the other day. I finally decided to give him a lesson in living and started trotting toward him waving my arms in the air. Hopefully he will pay more attention and live through this season and maybe be worth taking next year.

Fact is, other than bow hunting and older bucks I have never seen that it took much skill to kill a deer any way you want to go about doing it.

lizziedog1
November 27, 2011, 02:30 PM
What if you use a dog to bait for bear?

Is that real hunting?:D

heeler
November 27, 2011, 03:01 PM
I generally stay out these types of discussions but what's the difference of hunting an oak bottom loaded with acorns vs a corn feeder??
The deer are coming to both.

35 Whelen
November 27, 2011, 03:24 PM
Deer trained to come into bait piles are used to human scent. They have come to associate it with fresh bait. No need really to worry about the wind or cover scent, especially at gun hunting ranges. Most bait pile hunters sit in elevated boxes, so even sitting still isn't necessary. Only skill needed there is carpentry skills when erecting the stand. I have no problem with "sitting on stand" when it consists of scouting an area and waiting in ambush to take an animal that is either trying to escape or using natural game trails to get to and from bedding/feeding areas. Training the local deer to come to a specific spot by dumping a food that is more desirable than locally available, and then shooting them is basically shooting a domesticated animal.

Again. if a person wants to shoot an animal over a pile of bait and it's legal, I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with them calling it a "hunt".
Well then, I suppose hunting upland game with a dog is not hunting either, correct? I mean after all the dog is the one doing the hunting. It finds the birds, points them, you flush and kill them, then the dog finds the dead bird. All you did was shoot the bird.

If a person wants shoot birds over a dog and it's legal, I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with them calling it a "hunt".

Sound familiar?

35W

P.S- I use a German Shorthair Pointer AND I have a corn feeder on my property.

Cocked & Locked
November 27, 2011, 04:00 PM
If its not against the law, then its ethical to me. Its legal here.

buck460XVR
November 27, 2011, 04:03 PM
If a person wants shoot birds over a dog and it's legal, I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with them calling it a "hunt".

Sound familiar?

35W

P.S- I use a German Shorthair Pointer AND I have a corn feeder on my property.

You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and have every right to express it here, just as I am. Let me ask you this tho.....how many times have you seen the classic scene of a pointing dog etched/engraved on the side of a fine sporting gun? How many times have you seen the photo/drawing of a hunter still hunting/sneak hunting towards a nice animal on the cover of a hunting book/magazine? Now..........how many times have you seen the picture/drawing of a person sittin' over a bait pile with an empty feed sack next to him/her on either? There's a reason and most folks know why.

P.S. I have a Drahthaar, but only a dog feeder.




I crept up to within 70 yards of a mediocre 10 point and a doe the other day. I finally decided to give him a lesson in living and started trotting toward him waving my arms in the air. Hopefully he will pay more attention and live through this season and maybe be worth taking next year.



Zero...was this the same property, you described explicitly that was unhuntable without bait because one could not even crawl thru it without needing a blood transfusion? ....and you RAN thru it with your arms waving wildly? NOW....that's huntin'!

Again, I know not of others hunting area, but you folks don't know mine either. Some say the large expanses of deep swamp/bogs on the large areas of public land I hunt have deer that are inaccessible also without the use of bait. That is their opinion...not mine. Some also claim the same in the large areas of clear cut that quickly clog themselves solid with briars and sticktites amongst the trash left behind by the loggers. Again...this is their opinion not mine. We all have the right to our opinion and are allowed to hunt within the law using our own ethics. I never said baiting was cheating, not when it's legal. I never said baiting was unethical, just not my kinds of ethics. Folks get upset thinking I'm trashing them personally, but then have no problem trashing me and my ethics. It's just a difference of opinion. Not a reason to go ballistic. As I said before, I support anyone's form of hunting, even if I don't agree with it, as long as it's legal in their jurisdiction. If the law and the local ethics accept it as a viable means of taking game animals, so be it. But I don't have to like it, nor do I have to bow to intimidation(and the condescending posts) by those that don't agree with me.

courtgreene
November 27, 2011, 04:16 PM
I think too many people have a vision of the world that is limited to the world they know. For instance... as the poster from Alabama stated, you typically can't stalk within any shoot-able distance to a deer in the Southeast for two very localized reasons. As he said, you're going to wind up in some one else's shooting lane because around here there are not many vast expanses of land like there are out west (we didn't have a homestead act) and if there were, the average hunter wouldn't own them. More importantly, though, is the terrain. We are almost completely deciduous forests and swamps... please try stalking a deer while walking on bubble wrap or corn flakes. That's what it's like walking on a bed of nothing but dry leaves. So, we pretty much have to shoot from a blind or stand, even a natural blind works, but we have to get hidden and let the deer come to us. I've hunted for years without bait, and this year I started baiting... it didn't make a difference... I still only see deer on known travel routes, or VERY close to them. People like us see that as hunting because it's the only way hunting is done by most... especially those of us that are almost always on public land, where you can go from hunter to accidentally hunted very quickly if you start walking around quietly. I have tried stalking... and I think i did pretty well, getting very close, but as soon as I started getting into range, crunch, a leaf is stepped on and off they go. I think more people need to travel and see the world outside of their microcosm.

Milamber
November 27, 2011, 04:30 PM
'Shooting' deer over feed plots or bait is not hunting plain and simple. I can't stop you nor will I try. But please do not come into work on Monday morning telling me what a 'great hunter' you are for bagging a doe with this years fawn. Its NOT hunting its closer to FISHING. I have no issue with finding an area deer like and clearing trash around an area to open fire lines. Then start HUNTING waiting patiently concealed in an area to shoot supper.

lowerunit411
November 27, 2011, 04:40 PM
Milamber........"Its NOT hunting its closer to FISHING" ???? really? you are obviously not a bill fisherman or a blue water fisherman...

ZeroJunk
November 27, 2011, 04:50 PM
Zero...was this the same property, you described explicitly that was unhuntable without bait because one could not even crawl thru it without needing a blood transfusion? ....and you RAN thru it with your arms waving wildly? NOW....that's huntin'!


It was as a matter of fact. It has a 230KV transmission line running pretty much through the middle of it. I got down out of my stand early because I'm not much in the mood to kill a deer anyway and it's about 1/2 a mile up to the truck. I saw this deer cross about 400 yards away. I didn't think he could see me beacuse the sun was directly at my back on the horizon. I eased on up the power line and the doe came out about 100 yards away. I dropped down on one knee, but that got uncomfortable pretty quick, so I just stood up. A few minutes later the buck came out. He was fairly wide and had a good beam, but the top tines were just short. He would look at me ocasionally, but deer don't seem to make any sense out of a man they can't smell and isn't moving. The contractor reworking the power line had planted some grass to meet some EPA erosion requirements I suppose, and the deer were browsing on that.

Oh No, BAITING.

Anyhow, every time they were both with their head down I would ease up a few steps.


Look, if you want to feel like your hunting is some great challenge beyond the ability of others, it suits me.

Sam1911
November 27, 2011, 05:17 PM
I'll bet the hypocrites are the ones hunting in places like South Central PA where the deer damn near jump into the back of your truck and slit their own throats. (I've hunted that area many years so yes I know how they are)
Ahh, I did forget about that. That is definitely NOT hunting, either.

Now, if you're confronted with one of these suicidal deer and you've attempted advanced lifesaving techniques and made all possible efforts to prevent the loss of cervine life -- and the deer does expire on the operating table despite your heroic efforts ... then you can claim a sporting kill. Now that's hunting!

35 Whelen
November 27, 2011, 05:36 PM
You most certainly are entitled to your opinion and have every right to express it here, just as I am. Let me ask you this tho.....how many times have you seen the classic scene of a pointing dog etched/engraved on the side of a fine sporting gun? How many times have you seen the photo/drawing of a hunter still hunting/sneak hunting towards a nice animal on the cover of a hunting book/magazine? Now..........how many times have you seen the picture/drawing of a person sittin' over a bait pile with an empty feed sack next to him/her on either? There's a reason and most folks know why.

Congratulations. You did a bang-up job of COMPLETELY avoiding my question. So again, please tell me how it is that hunting over bait IS NOT hunting, yet having a dog find your game (in other words the dog does the hunting for you) IS hunting. Again the dog is doing the hunting, the person behind the dog(s) is nothing but the operator of a shotgun, a shooter, not a hunter, right? By the way, your reference to artwork is watery at best, but means nothing.

I strongly suspect those who make ludicrous statements such as "Deer trained to come into bait piles are used to human scent." have never hunted near a feeder. Statements like this show just how little some know about deer.

I keep a corn feeder set out a little over 100 yds. in front of the house. The wife, kids and I like to watch deer at it, but we never have shot one under it. From where I'm sitting now, if I lean back a little, I have clear view of it. It's 4:32 p.m. and there are no deer a the feeder, nor will there be prior to dark, and there haven't been any out during daylight hours in over a month. They usually hit it an hour or so before daylight, then they're gone. Why? I have no idea, but one thing is certain; having a feeder set up in an area inhabited by deer doesn't mean deer will come.

35W

Ole Humpback
November 27, 2011, 06:08 PM
'Shooting' deer over feed plots or bait is not hunting plain and simple.

Care to point out anything approaching a 100% success rate when shooting deer on a food plot or bait? I've hunted the edges of fields, food plots, and livestock feeding areas for the last 10 years and in that time I've only seen 3 deer total and shot 1 deer in those areas. That deer I got was walking up a wooded county drainage ditch that ran through the soybean field my stand was looking over. I got a shot on him at 65yds with my shotgun.

Its called hunting because you're not guaranteed to get a critter everytime you go out. Same goes for fishing with bait. Its called fishing, not catching, for a reason.

Redlg155
November 27, 2011, 06:08 PM
With the exception of purists, hunters by and large are creatures of convenience and tradition. Outlaw either method and hunters will adapt and find other methods to harvest game.
Example- Make baiting illegal and hunters will plant feed plots in order to improve the chances of harvesting game. Make dog hunting illegal (tradition) and hunters will change tactics in order to harvest game. Neither one of these practices cost effective. Corn, feeders, vet bills and dog food cost money.

Make night hunting for deer, thermal imaging systems, laser aiming devices, remote operated camera systems and other devices legal for hunting and someone wil do it. More power to you. My only complaint is when any method infringes or interferes with my right to hunt.

Hunt any way that is legal. Just keep it ethical. Hunting over feeders is one of the preferred methods of hunting on private property in NW Florida. Just keep it legal by not shooting a bear in the gut just because he is eating your deer corn. It happens more often than you think in this area.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 27, 2011, 06:34 PM
Quote:
I'll bet the hypocrites are the ones hunting in places like South Central PA where the deer damn near jump into the back of your truck and slit their own throats. (I've hunted that area many years so yes I know how they are)
Ahh, I did forget about that. That is definitely NOT hunting, either.

Now, if you're confronted with one of these suicidal deer and you've attempted advanced lifesaving techniques and made all possible efforts to prevent the loss of cervine life -- and the deer does expire on the operating table despite your heroic efforts ... then you can claim a sporting kill. Now that's hunting!

Sam, we better hush up or someone may offer us both jobs as comedians!!! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Sam1911
November 27, 2011, 06:50 PM
You know...I also forgot to mention the purest form of the "stalk." No true stalk hunter could claim to be "fair" if he's barged into the deer's daily routine and slaughtered it with so crude a device as a gun or bow. The true stalk hunter exercises a little more persistence. Stalking his prey armed only with patience, he knows not the limitations of the "hunting season," but tracks his query month after month, year after year throughout a long and fruitful life, and harvests that deer, cradling it's head in his lap, as the last breath leaves its body as it succumbs to the rigors of old age.

To do less is unsporting and uncivilized.

Redlg155
November 27, 2011, 07:13 PM
If you want to be sporting...take after the turtleman.

From this weeks episode while attempting to mask his scent..."I want you to take a chicken and rub it all over me. I know it's funny, but you gotta do it".

Now that's sporting.

kyle1974
November 27, 2011, 07:57 PM
is it "real hunting" if you sit within range of a well used deer trail? I mean.. it's a deer trail, the deer use it all the time. How can that be real hunting if you know the deer walk down it all the time?

back to baiting though...I was sitting in the pop up last weekend and had 10 or 12 deer at the feeder. Wind was in my favor...just waiting for muy grande to walk out. The wind shifted just slightly, and within 2-3 seconds, the deer were out of sight... gone. And they didn't come back. I guess they didn't read this thread and know that since they were eating corn, they were supposed to be trained to be happy with human scent... stupid deer, they don't even know the rules.... as established here online...

35 Whelen
November 27, 2011, 08:04 PM
The wind shifted just slightly, and within 2-3 seconds, the deer were out of sight... gone. And they didn't come back.


MY experience EXACTLY.

35W

Ole Humpback
November 27, 2011, 08:14 PM
is it "real hunting" if you sit within range of a well used deer trail? I mean.. it's a deer trail, the deer use it all the time. How can that be real hunting if you know the deer walk down it all the time?

I don't know. You know those savages without firearms had to chase buffalo over a cliff or wander aimlessly about in wolf hides to find animals to eat.

Strykervet
November 27, 2011, 08:16 PM
Okay, I grew up hunting and I grew up hunting in and around the area the OP is from. Black Warrior, spent a lot of time in there. I like the Sipsey Wilderness best, I hope it is still there... Lots of good stalking grounds in there for sure.

Anyway, when I was there, I think baiting was illegal. On the game reserves, they would lease land to farmers to grow corn on and the stipulation was that they had to leave so many rows for the game. Both to feed them for winter and to supply hunters with good hunting grounds. What prevented most hunters from using the actual fields as bait fields has to do with the fact most fields are near roads and you have to be so far away from the road to shoot.

That leaves hunting in the woods around the fields. That means going in off seasons and watching the deer and finding their trails, tracks and signs, and then going back and either stalking or using a stand to get them on their way to and from the fields.

A lot of folks down there have old school hunting habits. For instance, I was taught by my father who was taught by his uncle and grandmother who in turn were taught by their family and so on... All the way back to the Cherokee and Scottish and Irish immigrants. As such, my whole family used the stalking method. Almost extinct these days. Baiting was done at natural salt licks and in and around fields, but these people were hunting to feed their families up until after WWII and completion of the TVA. Today it isn't necessary, and they made them illegal I believe because it dramatically lowered the populations. Some states my not have a problem with this and still allow it (and AL may have changed...).

I see the hunting shows, they always use blinds and tree stands and have state of the art cameras and gear to find the dear. Chemicals and hormones and baits. I guess you can call it hunting... But I prefer a good stalk still where staying downwind is paramount. You won't get as many, it takes more skill, but if feels good when you do. Considering one or two would supply us with all the red meat we need for a year, why harvest more?

And I guess you can equate it to this, which I am SURE will garner some resentment but I don't care, is that hunting with bait, cameras, chemicals, hormones, and a tree stand, is akin playing a game at a lower skill level, whereas stalking with just camo and a rifle is akin to playing a game at a higher skill level. Major league vs. Minor.

If it wasn't, then they wouldn't be able to take city kids out there who've never been in the woods and bag a deer. It took me years to learn the skills necessary to get close to game without them running, how to walk up on them. I'd think "real hunters" would subscribe to the more difficult skill level as their skills improve, but I cold be wrong. Flame away.

kyle1974
November 27, 2011, 08:33 PM
don't you guys get it... it's ALL an unfair advantage.... rifle, pistol, bow and arrow.

unless you're chasing down game on foot and strangling it to death, you are using some tool that provides an advantage. Get it it already....

T Bran
November 27, 2011, 08:58 PM
I have kept a feeder running year round for nearly 10 years and hunt it on a regular basis.
I only take as much meat as I will consume in a year 2 or 3 deer and hogs as needed since they are legal year round on private property here. At the cost of feeding all year every year my deer cost me about 600.00 each so I dont have any guilt over it.
In return for the meat they get fed through the lean times ensuring a higher survival rate. So the herd in my area is stronger than most in the region.
Baiting can be a good thing or a bad thing as with all things it comes down to the ethics of the hunters that do it. It is really up to the individuals who participate in legal baiting to show some good moral judgement. You can only call it killing instead of hunting if you can guarantee a 100% success rate. I wish I could acheive 100% just for the fuel savings alone but alas nothing is ever perfect.
Now baiting hogs is a different story altogether if left undisturbed you can set your watch by the ones on my place. 15 to 20 minutes before the timer starts slinging corn they are there milling about. If you shoot one they go nocturnal for a day or two and start returning to their routine pretty quickly.
Good huntin
T

Cocked & Locked
November 27, 2011, 09:51 PM
I'm enjoying reading the short posts. The long ones are too time consuming to read. :scrutiny:.

So many opinions, so little time.

Nobody gonna change their mind from what they read here anyways...me included. :banghead:

Milamber
November 27, 2011, 10:06 PM
Nail on the head by cocked and locked "Nobody gonna change their mind from what they read here anyways...me included. " Edited the spelling or damn auto correct error.

Someone mentioned ethics - WOW add a new server we will be here a while;)

Art Eatman
November 27, 2011, 10:26 PM
That there are equal rights to an opinion in no way means that all opinions are equally valid...

Ambushing over bait is common among predators--and that's not opinion, that's fact. It's been that way ever since there have been predators and prey.

bad_aim_billy
November 27, 2011, 10:58 PM
You folks that think feeders aren't ethical, i guess you're just going to quit hunting when you can't get around like a youngster anymore?

Yup. I'll give up my hunting long before I sit in front of a feeder.

kyle1974
November 27, 2011, 11:26 PM
all I know.... between about 5 feeders on one pasture, I have trail camera photos of 35 deer that are at least 3.5 years old, and at least 8 points. to date, sitting around 20 times, I have seen 7 or 8 of them. there is one deer that is very tame around a feeder for whatever reason. maybe he's blind or messed up in the head. The vast majority of the deer are just like deer anywhere else. If they smell you or hear you, they're not coming in.

Art Eatman
November 28, 2011, 10:34 AM
I've always found that sitting in a blind is boring--for me. That's why I'd much rather stalk and play sneaky-snake. I've been quite good at that and quite successful.

But I have sat in blinds of one sort or another, and occasionally one where there's a nearby feeder. Sorta nice when it's windy and cold. I don't like windy and cold, not even a little bit. :(

It's all just hunting, to me. Been doing it for some seventy years. I've considered the ethics and morality stuff for darned near that long, once such notions cropped up in my thinking.

And so I don't see any difference between putting out bait as compared to sitting on a hillside above a spring or stock tank. Bait's bait, whether man-made or the Good Lord did it.

Heck, just watching people has me figuring that patience is as much of a skill as sneaky-snaking. Probably harder come by. :D

hardluk1
November 28, 2011, 04:35 PM
Sam 1911, dam , Those words were just beutiful. truly.

Ankeny
November 29, 2011, 05:07 PM
Bait's bait, whether man-made or the Good Lord did it. I don't consider a mechanical feeder placed expressly for the purpose of luring game animals to be the same as a cool fresh spring created by God. But hey, just because I have an opinion doesn't make it valid does it?

Can anyone tell me if SCI, Pope and Young, and/or Boone and Crockett consider hunting over bait fair chase? Just curious.

Lloyd Smale
November 29, 2011, 05:21 PM
I see we have a few hypocrites in this thread. Basically, as a couple of others have kind of danced around in saying, If you hunt ANY known food source, I.E. next to or in between a corn field, soybean field, clover field, alfalfa field, OR if you hunt in, or close to, a stand of Oak trees with acorn mast falling, then guess what,,, You are hunting over BAIT! Period. No if's and's or but's about it. If you are smart enough to figure out that a deer eats a certain type of food in a certain area and at a certain time, you are hunting over bait.

While the TRUE definition of bait is using a certain food or lure to entice an animal or fish to come to a certain location, one may also discern the definition to be, using a natural food source to pattern the movements of a specific game animal. If you hunt a water source, you are hunting over bait as well. If you are hunting over ANY natural source that has caused a specific pattern of a game animal, you are hunting over bait. Say what you wish, but before you go saying there is no skill needed when hunting over bait, try hunting in South Texas for white tail without cutting a scendaro or putting out a feeder. Cudos to anyone that can successfully tag out deer without them. Same goes for MANY locations in the US. I'll bet the hypocrites are the ones hunting in places like South Central PA where the deer damn near jump into the back of your truck and slit their own throats. (I've hunted that area many years so yes I know how they are)I agree totaly. No differnce in hunting your dads farm field then hunting over a pile of apples or hunting in a area that has a bunch of oak trees. Thing i really hate is other people trying to impose there idea of how hunting should be onto everyone else. Most anti baiters are people who have access to farm land or other areas with natural bait. They just dont want others not so fortunate to put a pile of apples on the border of there property and shoot deer that they think they own.

kyle1974
November 29, 2011, 05:47 PM
B&C and P&Y do not have any rules about hunting over a feeder.


What makes them the authority on hunting ethics?

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 29, 2011, 06:35 PM
SCI will take pretty much any deer with very few limitations on how or what methods they were harvested. They will take High Fence tame deer from canned hunts (no I don't mean the good ranches that have 100's to thousands of acres fenced. I mean the ones in a 20 acre enclosure that was put in there for the "hunter" to go kill) <-- said that to let all know I am not flaming the high quality large acre fenced hunts. The one thing I do like about SCI is they give credit to the deer for every single inch of antler growth unlike P&Y and B&C which subtract inches for retarded things.

Pope & Young allow deer taken over feeders. There are some that argue about the feeders that have battery operated casters saying that they are an "electronic devise" but as of yet no deer has been excluded because of them.

Same for Boone & Crockett.

kyle1974, P&Y and B&C were established years ago as a group to help maintain our hunting heritage and keep ethics alive in the hunting of big game animals. For the "trophy" hunters, they have this strict rule base to keep them from using unethical means to harvest deer. Kind of keeps the "rich fellas" from doing the raised in captivity tame deer canned hunt like many deer that are in the SCI record books.

kyle1974
November 29, 2011, 07:20 PM
Pope and young doesn't allow any entry if you use a luminock on your arrow.... Reasons for being founded and reasons to still be in existence aren't always the same. I don't agree with canned hunts either, but they do not distinguish between 20 acre pens and 20,000 acre high fence ranches. There are a lot of high fence ranches out there that were high fenced by default from neighbors high fencing around them.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 29, 2011, 07:23 PM
lol I didn't mean to imply that they were perfect. I too find a LOT of their rules to be idiotic to put it mildly.

kyle1974
November 29, 2011, 07:23 PM
Oh yes...I agree. I think they need to review their rules. High fence makes a difference, but I hate the thinking that all high fence is "canned". Most of the HF ranches in south Texas are far bigger than a deer's natural range.

Flintknapper
November 29, 2011, 08:31 PM
Kyle1974 wrote:

Most of the HF ranches in south Texas are far bigger than a deer's natural range.

Exactly, in fact….there are a slew of Ranches in Texas where 10,000 acres is just a pasture!

http://www.endgame.org/landlords-100.html

The Callaghan Ranch comes to mind, I’ve hunted it many times. Depending upon what “pasture” you hunt….you might have to drive nearly 30 miles from the camp-house to get to it….seeing nothing along the way….but a few cross fences.

For those not familiar with the term “Section”, one section is 640 acres (or 1 square mile). A SINGLE 10,000 acre pasture …is over 15 square miles (if laid out square). Most people don’t commute to work each day that far!

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 29, 2011, 08:42 PM
Easy there Flint. I was not in any way busting on the QUALITY high fenced places like most are in Texas. I was referring to the little 20 and 100 acre crapholes where the deer are placed in there a few hours before the "hunter" is to arrive and bag his "trophy" that SCI will allow in their books.

d2wing
November 29, 2011, 09:16 PM
Baiting is illegal here. I was a little shocked at my first exposure to deer leases and hunting over feeders. But everyman has to decide for himself what is sporting and fair chase, and if you are going to abide by the laws in your state. Local opinions and laws and needs do vary. I see a big difference between waiting at a feeder and near a field that is not a food plot for deer but others see it as the same thing. To me the scouting and sneaking is a good part of the hunt and I take pride in it. Not everyone gets the same chance to hunt that way. Even in this state hunting traditions and what's legal varies by region.

Art Eatman
November 30, 2011, 09:45 AM
"...the little 20 and 100 acre crapholes where the deer are placed in there a few hours before the "hunter" is to arrive..."

Where are these? Has anybody ever actually seen one? Or heard of it from a real person who actually has seen one?

I've read of a very few, in the news, but there's generally an uproar and the operation is quickly shut down.

However many exist--and even just one is too many--they seem to be not worth mentioning when talking about hunting. Kinda like bringing up Yugos when talking about cars.

ZeroJunk
November 30, 2011, 10:02 AM
I can tell you that a lot of guys in the east only have permission to hunt 20 acres or less, and there are no fences anywhere around here a deer can't hop over that I know of.

Somebody tell me how you are going to hunt a 15 acre plot with nothing to separate it from everything else except some corner stakes.

kyle1974
November 30, 2011, 10:09 AM
Ive never seen a 20-50 acre high fenced "ranch" outside of breeding pens, but i have seen some HF operations that are a couple hundred acres or so. Typically they are more into exotics moreso than whitetails, but they are out there. Personally not my cup of tea, but it doesn't bother me...keeping me up at night. as long as its legal, I congratulate the people instead or doing my best to rain on their parade.

lowerunit411
November 30, 2011, 10:24 AM
hmm..ruttnutt.com check out their "guaranteed" hunts that are kept..."confidential"....not Texas but, well you decide.

Ankeny
November 30, 2011, 10:30 AM
Most anti baiters are people who have access to farm land or other areas with natural bait. That probably varies from region to region. I think a lot of folks who are opposed to baiting probably come from states where baiting is not legal at all. For that matter, there are a lot of hunters in Wyoming who feel hunting farm ground is not "really" hunting. It's really all about ethics and belief systems. Oh, that and lack of understanding and intolerance.

heeler
November 30, 2011, 10:39 AM
^^^We have a winner!!

ForumSurfer
November 30, 2011, 11:12 AM
I remember one old timer who told me salt licks and corn piles just aren't right. That's not hunting.

Of course he said this right before he climbed into his tree-stand overlooking a freshly plowed sweet potato field.

I have no problem with baiting. Hunting lands around here are getting smaller and smaller.

The people that do annoy me around these parts are the dog hunters who never get both sides of the truck off the road and never stray farther than 10 feet from the truck. Makes one wonder exactly what the clean mud boots and clean over sized tires are for...

Sam1911
November 30, 2011, 11:39 AM
Maybe there should be a dualistic system of hunting licenses.

Meat Hunting: License is $5 and is good for 5 years. Season runs from October 1 to March 1, inclusive, 24/7. Any form or manner of harvesting that is not expressly cruel or dangerous will be lawful. "Tagging" or checking shall be limited to turning in the head (complete with antlers) at your local DNR check point. All other portions of the carcass are for the use of the hunter. Wanton waste or avoidable wounding and loss of any animal shall be a crime punishable by forfeiture of hunting privileges for 10 years and a $10,000 fine.

Trophy Hunting: License is $1,000 and is good for one week. Season runs sun-up to sun-down, alternating Tuesdays and Thursdays throughout the months of November and January. Methods of taking game shall be limited to single shots rifles or shotguns of modern make, repeating firearms listed as C&R eligible, or antiques, as well as longbows. No bait, no stands, no decoys, no calls, no blinds, no fences, no dogs, no camo, no hunting within 1,000 yds of a field that has been used for agricultural purposes within 5 years, or within 1,000 yds of standing or flowing water, or within 1 mile of any motorized vehicle. ... Oh, and you can keep the horns.

Seems that would help keep the peace... ;)

Flintknapper
November 30, 2011, 11:50 AM
lowerunit411 wrote:

hmm..ruttnutt.com check out their "guaranteed" hunts that are kept..."confidential"....not Texas but, well you decide

Yes, NOT Texas.

Their “guarantee” is the hunt (or any hunt) be kept confidential.

Finding and killing the animal on 300 acres…presumably is UP TO YOU. I imagine…the structure of the enclosure would dictate your chances.

A mostly barren area of 300 acres would certainly expose the animal.

An enclosure 6’ wide by several miles long…would pretty much insure you’re going to see the animal too, but if it is normal…wooded area, you’d still have to work for the Deer unless its tame.

In any case, let’s post what they actually guarantee, which is the hunt itself and your privacy.

http://www.ruttnut.com/pages/high-fence-hunts.php

NEW: Starting in the fall of 2008 Ruttnut Guide Service will be offering High Fence deer hunts. In addition to our already popular Free Range Hunts, we at Ruttnut want to make sure that your stay with us is a productive one.

By offering our guests "like you" the opportunity at a High Fence Hunt. You can be assured that you are going home with that trophy of a lifetime.

You can hunt in an all hardwood preserve, or a pine preseve. These are pristine preserve's with you and the animal of your choice.

Our High Fence Hunts include "Your Choice" of many different options from which you can pick from. Depending on your preference you can let your imagination run wild. Do you want a Pope & Young buck at 125 or 130 or would you like a Booner surpassing the 180 to 190 mark? You decide. It's all possible with Ruttnut Guide Service.

All of our hunts are totally confidential.... When you are hunting with Ruttnut Guide Service, our hunts are kept 100% confidential. Guaranteed.

If you want to see your photo on our website let us know and we will be glad to showcase you with other hunters but only at your request. We will not sell your name to marketers.

Our preserve is 300 acres.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 30, 2011, 12:12 PM
Flint, little off the track here but it is very easy to look up the canned hunts to which I referred. In Google search, simply type into the search "100% Guaranteed success white tail deer hunt" and you will see a LOT of them pop up. For ANY place to 100% guarantee success, well you figure out the logistics for that. You have hunted deer and hog almost as long as I have so you know where I am going with that.

JohnBT
November 30, 2011, 12:21 PM
I think a few folks need to look up the meaning of the word bait. According to these folks, dairy cows eating grass in a pasture are eating bait. HA.

Sam1911
November 30, 2011, 12:23 PM
I think a few folks need to look up the meaning of the word bait. According to these folks, dairy cows eating grass in a pasture are eating bait. HA. Well, if you're planning to HUNT them, sure! Not to mention, that's FENCED LAND!

What self-respecting hunter would shoot a cow under those conditions?

MCgunner
November 30, 2011, 12:34 PM
This year marks my 46th year to hunt deer, both with bow and gun. I figure I am entitled to my opinions based of my experience without having to have folks that don't know me call me names because they don't agree with my level of ethics.

Well, lessee, I shot my first deer at age 11. I'm 59 now, that makes 48 years. Wow, 2 up on ya and I ain't even counting walkin' around with my grandpa at age 10. :neener:

I'm not calling you names, just figurin' your ethics are that of a Yankee that's never hunted south Texas brush country. :uhoh: When we secede, you can keep your Yankee ethics and stay up there out of harms way. :D We might just bait Yankees down here someday.

J/K...of course

I hunt how I can. If I can spot and stalk open country, that's how I prefer it. But, in heavy brush, I take a stand and on MY place use a feeder. I don't own the King Ranch, just a few acres next to a big ranch's fence. You can't see too far to spot anything and the cover is too dense to stalk it even if you did. But, then, the good thing is my black powder rifle is all I need there, no 1000 yard shots possible.

MCgunner
November 30, 2011, 12:50 PM
Quote:
You folks that think feeders aren't ethical, i guess you're just going to quit hunting when you can't get around like a youngster anymore?


Yup. I'll give up my hunting long before I sit in front of a feeder.

Suit yourself. I wanna go like a good friend did, heart attack in his deer stand, died doing what he loved to do. Be less traumatic on the wife than if I went doing what I REALLY like to do. I love my waterfowl hunting even though I "bait" 'em with decoys, but it's tough hunting on public land. I can see the end of that someday, just have to pay someone to take me to a blind in the bay, I reckon.

Flintknapper
November 30, 2011, 01:19 PM
Freedom_fighter_in_IL wrote:

Flint, little off the track here but it is very easy to look up the canned hunts to which I referred. In Google search, simply type into the search "100% Guaranteed success white tail deer hunt" and you will see a LOT of them pop up.

Yes, I understand completely what you are/were referring to, you made that abundantly clear in your first post, (it wasn't lost on me) so I don't know why you continue to labor the point. We are talking about two separate things here. (neither of which relate to baiting, sorry mods). :o


For ANY place to 100% guarantee success, well you figure out the logistics for that.
Correct, however my response to the person who cited the link...simply points out that they do NOT guarantee you a KILL, only that the animal you select will be in the enclosure (300 acres) AND that your hunt will be kept confidential. Not exactly...the definition of a "canned hunt" for most folks, though I would not personally partake of such an event.


You have hunted deer and hog almost as long as I have so you know where I am going with that.
Yes, I've hunted various animals....for 45 yrs. now, not new the game...nor are you.

Art Eatman
November 30, 2011, 05:58 PM
That part of Texas bounded by US 90 from San Antonio to Del Rio on the north and a line from San Antonio to Brownsville on the east is pretty much the "Brasada": The brush country. Head-high mesquite, prickly pear, catclaw, miscellaneous sticky stuff and other brush. Not all that many trees that are really all that big for climbing, except along the few creeks and not many rivers.

Catclaw is really fun stuff, if you like to bleed, and if you want to discover that rip-stop nylon isn't. (Sorta like my country, where folks learn the hard way that all-terrain radial tires aren't.)

Eight or nine million acres, mas o menos. Mostly gently rolling country.

Standing on the ground, you can figure a shooting distance of as much as, oh, maybe ten yards. Squatting or sitting, maybe twenty--sometimes. Yeah, there are open areas, but they're usually the product of two dozers pulling a few hundred feet of a ship's anchor chain.

And that's why folks hunt from high stands over bait, or drive along jeep trails while sitting up in a high seat in the back of a pickup. Nobody ever said that Mama Nature wanted life to be easy.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 30, 2011, 06:34 PM
No problem Flint, just wanted to be sure you knew that I in no way was referring to the MANY quality high fenced operations that are run in Texas. Hell there are a few of them that have acreage fenced that would encompass more acreage than a lot of COUNTIES in most states.

Art is dead on as usual. As I stated earlier, there are many parts of Texas and a few other states that would make hunting 99% impossible without the use of feeders and baited scendaros. Those that cry about it have never experienced catsclaw or briars that look more like railroad spikes than plant stickers! You have Russian tumbleweed, Catsclaw, Christs Thorn (Some NASTY stuff right there), Starthistle, just to name a few of the HUNDREDS of vines and bushes that will turn you into a bloody mess without body armor.

If you want to go stalking through that mess, please let your loved ones know so that they may have medical personnel ready with a good blood supply in your blood type ready.

MCgunner
November 30, 2011, 07:01 PM
(Sorta like my country, where folks learn the hard way that all-terrain radial tires aren't.)

ROFL. When I had that 15,000 acre lease in Pumpville, I bought a set of used wheels off a Toyota 4x4 similar to mine. I took the old chrome wheels, which were rusting, and tossed the old tires on 'em, bought new ones for the new wheels. I drove or pulled this truck out to Pumpville each season and practiced at least ONE pit stop tire change EVERY trip. I cut 'em on rocks, but usually punched spike like thrones through 'em. Damned rugged out there. :D

You shoulda seen the tires on the ranch patrolman's (worked for the club) ATV. He had one rip that musta had 50 plugs in it. It musta had a pound or two of plugs total in it and the other tires as well. Every morning, he'd air up his flat tires to go fill and/or maintain the feeders and stands and such. Just part of life in the trans-pecos. :D

BTW, I mostly hunted spot and stalk out there or just by sitting on a dry wash that held lots of brush and, therefore, game. the draws tend to concentrate the game out there as it's the only place there's cover. I did hunt a feeder there once and took a doe to go with my nice buck I took a few days before sitting on a dry wash. The way that place was managed, we were allowed one buck and one doe per trip. I was always trying to get someone interested in driving the draws out there, but never could get a drive up. It would have been a good hunting strategy for that terrain methinks.

MCgunner
November 30, 2011, 07:09 PM
Hmm, wonder who all thinks driving deer is unethical? :rolleyes:

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 30, 2011, 07:12 PM
Hmm, wonder who all thinks driving deer is unethical?

As long as the deer have a "drivers license" it's not unethical at all :neener:

ZeroJunk
November 30, 2011, 07:32 PM
I had a friend bring a buck back here that he had shot somewhere in that Texas thicket. The taxidermist raised hell at him because of all the thorns in the deer stabbing his fingers trying to cape and mount it.

Flintknapper
November 30, 2011, 07:52 PM
Freedom_fighter_in_IL wrote:

If you want to go stalking through that mess, please let your loved ones know so that they may have medical personnel ready with a good blood supply in your blood type ready.

Yup, these will just get you “started”, nothing close to an all-inclusive list!
There is a REASON we bulldoze Senderos through the Brush Country and bait the deer.

Mesquite, Catclaw acacia, whitebrush, blackbrush, granjeno
Chollo
Dumpling Cactus
Glory of Texas
Guapilla
Horse Crippler
Night-blooming Cereus
Petite Ladyfinger
Pincussion Cactus
Runyon's Escobaria
Spanish Dagger
Texas Prickly Pear
Fishhook Cactus

kyle1974
November 30, 2011, 07:53 PM
stickers and thorns in texas? come on... that's just a myth....

Flintknapper
November 30, 2011, 07:57 PM
Zero, its easy to spot a South Texas deer. Just peel the hide back on any leg and you will find Prickly Pear Cactus spines lined up vertically under the skin.

Older deer especially... have a "lining" of the fine spines that work there way in...and eventually line up (mostly) up and down with the leg. They won't usually be the large spines (unless just deposited), just small, fine spines.

Flintknapper
November 30, 2011, 07:59 PM
kyle1974 wrote:

stickers and thorns in texas? come on... that's just a myth

A painful "myth" at that. ;)

Only "stickers" I want to see....are on antlers!

lowerunit411
November 30, 2011, 08:49 PM
Not sure how this thread went from baiting to Texas. As long as were there can I get a chili relleno con papas like they make at the truckstop in midtown ElPaso?

kyle1974
November 30, 2011, 09:01 PM
probably because there are some great folks from texas on the thread that don't care for people telling them that their way of hunting isn't "keeping it realz" enough....

lowerunit411
November 30, 2011, 09:07 PM
Well the topic was baiting and there's some great people from all over on this thread. Had it been "baiting in Texas" that would be different. I love Texas and spent a good deal of time in the Navy and as a civilian there but suddenly the "high fence" issues seemed to gravitate to Texas. There are good folks from all over the world on all of these forums....don't pander

MCgunner
November 30, 2011, 09:11 PM
Well, the topic is baiting and the corn feeder is king in Texas. We don't have the public land that Oregon or Washington state do and our ethics are different, hunting and otherwise. Seems to me the NW is home of PETA and the granola cruncher crowd, too, so I take their "ethics" with a grain of salt, thanks. This thread sorta reflects regional differences if nothing else. That's not off topic, actually speaks to the topic.

d2wing
November 30, 2011, 09:34 PM
I got lost looking for Luckenbach (who doesn't) pretty wild country and lots of deer. I've also been on the King ranch. Interesting country. There is a reason most people live East of the Mississippi or along the coastal regions. There's a lot of hard to get around country in the West from Minnesota to Central Texas and beyond.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
November 30, 2011, 09:37 PM
There are good folks from all over the world on all of these forums....don't pander

Want diverse? I was born and raised in Tennessee, in the service for a good many years traveling all over the world, after service have lived in Kansas, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and now the socialist state of Illinois. Hunted in damn near every state in the country for one critter or another so I do know a small bit about the traditions and hunting ethics across the country. I brought Texas up for the exact reason MCgunner said. They are the feeder capital of the country and with damn good reason.

Some are also neglecting the GOOD that these feeders do in the off season months for the deer herds as well. Some of these people with feeders are providing nutrition year round for these deer at their OWN cost. There are a good many deer that would not have made it through various natural letdowns such as drought had it not been for the hunters putting out food for them.

Hows about some of you hypocrites get off your soap boxes and try to look at how SOME people, not all as you will have bad apples in almost every basket, have to use bait to even SEE a deer. Let alone harvest one. Not all places are like South Eastern Pa or Northern Kentucky or South Western Illinois.

lowerunit411
November 30, 2011, 09:47 PM
Look here pard, if you read my responses to this thread and still want to call me a hypocrite, do it...your right this whole baiting thread is really a Texas issue my bad.

Art Eatman
December 1, 2011, 10:40 AM
I recckon five pages is enough of this subject for now. It's not the first time, nor will it be the last. :)

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