1900 HD Pistol?

[Josey]

I was discussing this with some friends. In 1900, what pistol would you choose for home defense? Why that particular pistol? Caliber? I would want a Colt New Service in 44-40 myself. The hand me down revolver in the family was a Colt U.S. Army Model 1901 in 38 Long Colt. A pretty weak round. There must have been a shotgun behind the door.

[chaim]

A home defense handgun in 1900, 2 years before the S&W Military & Police and .38spl? I'm thinking something in .45LC, probably the Colt SAA or an old Remington.

[BluesBear]

S&W New Model 3 Frontier in .44-40.



By the way I thought the first S&W .38 Special was in 1899?

[buttrap]

7.63 mauser 10 shoot selfloader

[Lone Star]

For home defense mainly, a Webley .455. For a general purpose handgun where longer ranges might be involved, a Colt SAA .45.

Lone Star

[Crownvicman]

If it had to be a pistol, it would be a medium to large caliber revolver from a reputable make. Maybe a S&W #3 .44 Russian or a Colt Single Action.

In reality, it would probably be one of the cheap pocket pistols in .32 or .38 S&W caliber that were sold through Sears catalogs.

[Johnny Guest]

I think Colt was making their Army Special swing-out DA in .41 Long Colt at that time. I know, not very powerful, but compact compared to the big SAs and the DA frontier types. And, back then, it was thought a pretty good cartridge. (It can still be, in a solid gun, and if you handload.) ;)

Best,
Johnny

[Zeke Menuar]

Broomhandle Mauser.

ZM

[Dr.Rob]

Colt New Frontier Six -Shooter ala DA 1878 in 45 Colt or an SAA. That SW 3rd model is no slouch either.

[Marko Kloos]

I'd settle for a Webley in .455, or a Broomhandle Mauser, depending on location and circumstances.

Now, a CCW gun for 1900 would be a whole 'nother interesting scenario...

[guy sajer]

Has to be a New Service ! :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=245952

[tc300mag1]

I think it would have to be a colt SAA in 45 colt

[Chuck Jennings]

Webley in .455

[chaim]

By the way I thought the first S&W .38 Special was in 1899? That seems to be the conventional wisdom, but something told me to check before posting. I looked up .38 Special in Cartridges of the World, 9th Edition by Frank C. Barnes (edited by M.L. McPherson) and it states:

"Also known as the .38 Colt Special and, more generally, as simply the .38 Special, this cartridge was developed by S&W and introduced with its Military & Police Model revolver in 1902." (p. 275)

I also saw a website later (I didn't make note of the URL) that said that the S&W M&P came out in 1902, and was based on an earlier model.

Of course, the conventional wisdom has always been 1899 and I've also seen 1898. Gene Gangarosa Jr's Complete Guide To Service Handguns says 1899 as do several websites.

I don't know what sources everyone is relying on. Other possible sources of the differences could be that a version of the M&P came out in 1899 and it was modified to the version we know now in 1902. Was it actually called the M&P in 1899, maybe it was called something else until 1902. Maybe it was developed in 1899 but wasn't available until 1902. Or it could simply be a more reckless mistake on the part of one of the groups (or more likely the source used by one of the groups).


At any rate, originally I was thinking the M&P for this question if it came out by 1900 since I like the .38spl (as well as several other choices) for HD. However, having the past couple days to think about it I don't think I'd want an early one. The original loading would have been a relatively ineffective lead ball design. The .38 Colt Special only deviated from the .38 S&W Special in that it had a flat point (probably more effective) and I'd be willing to go with that, but it didn't come out until 1909. With the bullet technology of the day I think I'd be more comfortable with the larger bore so I think I'd still stick with something in .45LC, probably the tried and true SAA.

[WonderNine]

Select fire Broomhandle Mauser of course! :D

[guy sajer]

WN
Sorry , I don't think the select fire version arrived until the early 1930's .

[WonderNine]

WN
Sorry , I don't think the select fire version arrived until the early 1930's .

Ok, then how come that dude at the beginning of The Fifth Element had one? :mad:


:D

[guy sajer]

Oh yeh . It was in a movie . It must be true . Hollywood always gets it right . :D

[Sam]

I'll go with the New Service.
I have a somewhat later model (1909 Army) that is just short of miraculous.
Fit and finish are wonderful and it's still easily the most accurate handgun I own.
Stacks em up on top of each other if I'm doing my part.


Sam

[Kaylee]

having been in the lockwork of one of those turn-of-the-century double action designs once... I think I'll take a SAA, thanks. :)

Preferably a military sell-off from when they went to those pansy .38s. That should be (relatively speaking) not too expensive in this era, and there should be a fair amount of surplus ammuntion still available.

The 45 Colt is definately full powered, and the design has almost thirty years of service in the Indian Wars, not to mention the basic mechanism being tried and true since well before the Late Unpleasantness of forty years past.

It still packs a decent punch with ol' black powder loads, in case they can't get that fancy-dancy "smokeless" stuff to the local dry goods store regular like. Sure, it's a little slower on the reload than them new-fangled double-actions, but I sure trust those first six a heck of a lot more. :)

-K

[BowStreetRunner]

Webley in 455 for sure

[guy sajer]

Kaylee
having been in the lockwork of one of those turn-of-the-century double action designs once... I think I'll take a SAA, thanks

I like your SAA choice also . It would probably be my second choice . However , I'm confused by your observation ? The New Service lock work was the design used in 100 + yrs of Colt revolvers including the current Python .
Possibly you're referring to the first major production of swing out cylinder Colt 38 & 41 LC New Army / New Navy models ? They do have some very tiny springs internally . However , I own 6 or 7 and are in good condition unaltered by "shade tree" gunsmiths . They have shot pretty well without breakages or misfires . :)

[BluesBear]

having been in the lockwork of one of those turn-of-the-century double action designs once... Exactly why I chose the single action S&W New Model 3 Frontier in .44-40.

Rapid reloading, big bore, sturdy action. Too bad they didn't make in it .45. But at least it would have went well with an original 94 Marlin.


My second choice would have been a Merwin & Hulbert .44 Army with interchangable barrels. Wayyy ahead of it's time.

[Kaylee]

It would probably be my second choice . However , I'm confused by your observation ? The New Service lock work was the design used in 100 + yrs of Colt revolvers including the current Python .

I'm referring to the lockwork that was in grampa's ol' Police Postive, which I presume is more or less the same as that in the New Service from the parts bin I had to root through to get a replacement rebound lever.

The mess behind that sideplate would make Rube Goldberg blush. :uhoh:

The little rampy bit that engages the rebound lever to the bolt particularly is just... yuck. Trouble waiting to happen, as I see it. Now I'm sure lots of folks have had lots of Colt double-action revolvers with no problem, given their popularity for ages. Maybe I'm crotchety before my time, and I'll admit straight out I ain't a master gunsmith by any stretch... but pony or no pony, I can't say as I would ever care to trust my life to it.

I'm not familiar with the Smiths of the era, but if their innards are anything like the innards of more modern S&Ws, I'd feel a heck of a lot better with that choice. :)

[BluesBear]

1900 S&W innerds.

Not much has changed.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=775630

[PlayTheAces]

I can tell you what my great grandad carried in 1900 as it's been passed down and I'm the current curator. He had an Iver Johnson concealed hammer breaktop in .32. If I remember correctly the patent date on it is 1888. I suspect the smaller pocket guns were pretty popular at the time.

He was a guard at San Quentin - I wonder if he carried the little .32 on duty or if they were issued something else?

[guy sajer]

1899 - present

New Service , Army Special , Police Positive , Officers Model , Official Police , Detective Special , Cobra , Agent , Courier , Model 357 , Trooper , Diamondback , Python .

Approximate numbers issued to US Military
20,000 New Service revolvers as the M1909 .
150,000 M1917

Also issued in large numbers to RNWMP/RCMP , NYSP , US Border Patrol , and dozens of other state and local police departments . I couldn't begin to name the numbers of the other models issued in large numbers . These guns saw hard use and evidently served well as orders kept coming in .

I also like the S&W design , but don't care much for the 38 spl ammo of the day so I couldn't vote for the 1899 Smith .

No disrespect meant . Just a different opinion I guess . ;)

[guy sajer]

It's strange how in such a short period of time , 50 - 60 yrs , that the .32 cal handgun has been discounted as a defensive sidearm . Colt's , S&W's , Iver Johnson's , Hopkins & Allen , Webley were sold / carried by everyday citizens by the millions . Colt alone in just one model made over 550,000 M1903 .32 acp pistols .

I like those old "hammerless" revolvers . They were very modern , imo , in their day and still used today .
This Smith 32 Safety 2nd Model was made about 1904 .

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=355051

[Kaylee]

guy .. no disrespect taken or intended on my part either. Yup, just different preferences I guess. If it works for ya, cool. :)

Bluesbear... yeah, that looks strangely familiar. :)

And I still say SAA. :p

[guy sajer]

And I still say SAA.

I can deal with that :D Mine's not quite a 1900 model . But , 1968 was a good year for SAA's :cool:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=776629