Ex cop/currently works in morgue

Something for all you 9mm fans. So much for more capacity. This guy works in the morgue in Atlanta, and he says that bullets act much differently in the body as opposed to in gel. It's a long read, but worth it. The following post is from Curtis on concealed carry forum.

Posted - 12/31/2009 : 03:06:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All:

If you haven't read this aritcle, please do. VERY INTERESTING!! :)

All the best.

Curtis

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm

Yeah, been over the Net for a few years.

I have never seen proof this guy is/was for real. He disappeared shortly after posting on that forum with no verification he was who he said he was. IMHO it was a hoax or as real as Gecko45. Many of his statements of employment and experince didn't begin to add up.

I have never seen proof this guy is/was for real. He disappeared shortly after posting on that forum with no verification he was who he said he was. IMHO it was a hoax or as real as Gecko45. Many of his statements of employment and experince didn't begin to add up.
You'll have better luck on here with a "Stopping Power" thread or "9mm vs. .40" than you will with a thoughtful article on the testimony of a morgue worker. The "prove its" the "this has been discussed befores" and the "you opened an old thread?" idiots will always drag you down.

The guy provides some good insight, and based on the questions he was asked (after warning them beforehand!) it is no wonder he just disappeared. Why stand in a room full of trash when you can walk outside?

No loss though. There is an infinite source of credible information gathered by highly experienced 16 year olds on here that can easily fill in all the blanks. Just be here when it happens, don't reopen the thread, and never ever rediscuss something that has been discussed previously by the teenage oracles. Oh yeah, and that the information comes from them is all the "proof" you need --you only need proof and credentials if you are somebody else.

Gelain is used as a test medium because it approximates living tissue, there being a lack of willing live test subjects. Naturally a bullet will perform differently.

The alleged morgue-worker-cop story was thoroughly debunked a couple of years ago. You can search various forums for the back story.

Unfortunately, it has achieved self-licking ice cream cone status and endlessly circulates the Internet.

The author claimed to have seen more gunshot victims in one year at his county morgue than the total of shooting deaths for the same time frame spread across all metro Atlanta counties.

In other words, he fabricated the entire story...it's B.S.

I've read that whole series of posts at least three times now, and while it's a really good read and well written, I'm still comfortable carrying .380 auto, 9x19, and .38 special. Doesn't mean I don't carry .45 acp or .357 mag as well, but I take it with a grain of salt.

In other words, he fabricated the entire story...it's B.S.
Several people know him personally that run various firearm related businesses; credible sources that are well known (LAV for one). It's not BS, it's factual.

How many militaries and police units outside of North America are using 10mm, .40, .45 or Magnum rounds ?

What is the most commonly used round in the world ?

Looks like it's time to break out the popcorn and sit back and enjoy the show that is surely coming...

Military and police should not be looked towards for advice on ballistics. Their choices are dictated by lowers bidders paid by the taxpayers.

read the article long ago, don't care. Direct quote from the article
Yes, the .380 and 9mm will do the job, but usually multiple hits are required as opposed to single hits with a .40 or .45.

Who only fires one round? I have been taught and train to fire until the threat stops being a threat.

And NATO interchangeability. If we used ammo that worked the best we would all be carrying M-2 and various .30 cals, not 5.56.
The Police and Military have differing objectives. Use different tools for different jobs.


Let the caliber war begin!

Yes, the .380 and 9mm will do the job, but usually multiple hits are required as opposed to single hits with a .40 or .45.

And I have transported a guy with a .44 Magnum hit in the upper left chest. No way he could survive, but he did.
Made runs on suicides with a .22lr that succeeded.
They put down 600 pound cows with .22lr in the stockyards.
Nothing is a guaranteed one shot stop, and little works sometimes too. Lots of variables that can change the outcome.

If we used ammo that worked the best we would all be carrying M-2 and various .30 cals, not 5.56.
We killed 30-40,000 enemies so far in the Sandbox, I'm guessing 97% of those with the 5.56. The M14 is not that common in the field. MK262 will get and has gotten plenty of one shot kills out to 700m. Well known in the military the old M855 sucks. The new version is better but not optimal. MK262 is proving itself. I've been in contact with several DMR soldiers over the recent years. They stuffed the M14 in the trunk and kept the MK12 on hand, rarely bringing out the 7.62 due to bulk. A MK12 with MK262 ammunition will be capable of 700-800m kills. The M14 had its day, but there's a reason they've been in storage for this many wars.

Several people know him personally that run various firearm related businesses; credible sources that are well known (LAV for one). It's not BS, it's factual.

Yeah, he's a real person all right. He's a forensic anthropologist with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. Not a Medical Examiner. Not a Medical Doctor. Not a Pathologist. Not a "Mortician".

His claimed/implied numbers of autopsies are exaggerated (based upon UCR data and annual death reports for Georgia) and gun fatalities make up only a fraction of them, although he implied greater numbers. And as he admitted in his "report", the real ME often can't tell what handgun caliber was used to create a wound, unless the bullet was physically recovered.

He originally posted over at Smith & Wesson Forums, but was never willing to answer questions, respond to debate, or answer queries on that forum (nor on several others). He got called out on some facts and "disappeared".

Deadmeat2 is:

http://www.state.ga.us/gbi/pathology/bios.html

"Dr. Frederick Snow graduated from Georgia State University in Atlanta, GA with a B.A in 1970. He served as a patrolman for the Dekalb County Police Department from 1973 to 1980. Dr. Snow enrolled as a graduate student at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, Tennessee and received a master's degree in anthropology in 1989. He joined the Georgia Bureau of Investigation in 2002 and earned a Ph.D. in anthropology from the University of Tennessee in 2004.

Dr. Snow has extensive field experience in the identification of remains from mass grave/disaster sites. Internationally, he served as a forensic anthropologist for the UN War Crimes Tribunal for Kosovo in 1999, helping to determine manner of death and gain evidence for the indictment of war criminals. He also excavated mass graves for the International Commission on Missing Persons in Sarajevo and Herzegovina, Bosnia to recover evidence for use at the UN War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague in 2001. Finally, Dr. Snow served in an administrative role for the tsunami victims identification project in 2005 in Phuket, Thailand. Domestically, he was part of the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team (DMORT), in Noble, Georgia in 2002, and helped recover and identify remains from 326 individuals at the Tri-State Crematory.

At the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, Dr. Snow has collected, analyzed, and archived approximately 200 sets of unidentified human skeletal remains dating to 1969. "
-----------------------------------

So a GBI forensic anthropologist is a terminal ballistics expert? Another poster summed it up nicely on a 2006 thread about this topic...

July 13, 2006, 04:04 PM #159 by buzz_knox
Member

"It's not about preferences or beliefs. It's whether or not someone who is stating a specific conclusion based on specific evidence actually has observed said evidence and has the qualifications to draw the conclusions asserted. Deadmeat2 came off as an ME, who would have somewhat of a basis of knowledge for determining effects of different rounds and determining how said effects differ based on penetration, wound characteristics, etc. Except, he's not an ME. He's a forensic pathologist. He will typically be seeing bodies that need identification or evidence gathered, not the cause of death determined. Some of the critical wound characteristics will no longer be there because the bodies are often partially/totally decomposed. The bodies on the autopsy table Deadmeat2 speaks of will often consist principally of bones. Any data on bullet type will only be determined if the bullet is recovered.

After all that has been discussed on this thread, if you buy his argument, that's great. But understand you are doing so based on not much more than the same anecdotal evidence you get at a gun shop, combined on your own particular prejudices for or against a particular caliber."


This falls into the realm of a deer processor cutting up the meat and making value judgments about caliber effectiveness. Without ever actually seeing the deer get shot.

As I said... B.S.

UCR data is worth the paper I wipe my butt with as it's not mandatory and it's not close to 100% reporting.

Ditto for that guy's "report".

Military and police should not be looked towards for advice on ballistics. Their choices are dictated by lowers bidders paid by the taxpayers.
I respectfully disagree. Different times and different cultures, different procurement methods, different goals. In many cases the ammo would be produced at state owned facilities by state employed workers, making the relative cost of different pistol calibers rather irrelevant. Most historical accounts of new handgun / caliber development started with gov't issuing specifications which specifically listed the caliber. Including the handguns adopted by US Military.

I think in most countries, the police is following military choice of calibers. There's just a very different culture in the Americas (not just the US, I think) vs the rest of the world. Here, the large calibers are preferred, for whatever reason. In Europe, and pretty much elsewhere, the round of choice historically was either Mauser 7.62 / 7.65 mm (great ballistics, great penetration, relatively low stopping power) or Luger (great ballistics, OK penetration, OK stopping power). Luger slowly pushed the other rounds out of favor. The eastern block first used TT33 with round based on Mauser (a very popular round in Russia after the Civil War), and later 9x18mm Makarov (a relatively anemic Luger wannabe from what I read). Again from what I read, there was much complaining about going to Mak round, since most people with first hand combat or police experience preferred the penetrating qualities of older round. However the large calibers never made it big anywhere else but in NA. Although I read that 10mm is now getting accepted more widely around the globe as a serious military round. Still, 9mm Luger seems to be _the_ round of choice. Either everyone else is dumb, or there's quite a number of caliber snobs on gun forums.

Now, I am not really an expert on all the armies and PDs in the world. It may be that there is actually more of them using large cals outside of Americas - please educate me if you have better data.

Most historical accounts of new handgun / caliber development started with gov't issuing specifications which specifically listed the caliber. Including the handguns adopted by US Military.
These were done by the civilian market, not solely for military.

I think in most countries, the police is following military choice of calibers. There's just a very different culture in the Americas (not just the US, I think) vs the rest of the world. Here, the large calibers are preferred, for whatever reason.
Reason being performance. All things equal, a larger bullet does more permanent damage. ever hear "a 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink"? Well there's some truth to that.


Although I read that 10mm is now getting accepted more widely around the globe as a serious military round.
First time I ever heard that. Be honest with you, if a situation in warfare comes down to a pistol and its cartridge, the S has really, really hit the fan.

Still, 9mm Luger seems to be _the_ round of choice. Either everyone else is dumb, or there's quite a number of caliber snobs on gun forums.
For many years, when Europe coughed, everyone got a cold. Seems to reign true these days.

I really didn't see the need for the change. I bet if we could account for the number of enemies KIA by the .45 ACP 1911 from WWI to Vietnam it wouldn't impress the likes of McNamara.

Now, I am not really an expert on all the armies and PDs in the world. It may be that there is actually more of them using large cals outside of Americas - please educate me if you have better data.
9mm is nominal .355" .45 ACP is nominal .451". We're talking a mere .096". The real reason for the change was political. One nation used the .45 ACP while dozens used the 9mm. Guess who won?

1 2 3 4 I declare a caliber war!!!

Why are we looking at comments from a dubious researcher when the FBI has mounds of evidence and statistics from LE and civilian shootings? :banghead:

LD

This guys "report" and conclusions is proof of nothing except that he lacks in the area of critical thinking. All this guy was looking at was the group of people who were shot and died of their wounds. He didn't know how long it took them to die, he didn't know how many shots were fired. Using this guys thinking, if the only guns that anyone carried were a single shot 22 derringer and a Glock with a 30 round magazine, he would conclude that the 22 was the hammer of God and the Glock was ineffective. After all, the dead people in the morgue killed with a 22 were all only shot once. the ones shot with the Glock were shot many times. He could have just as easily concluded from his observations that you are likely to get more hits with a 9mm than with a 45 when you empty the magazine at someone in a high stress situation. I predict that if a lot of people carried revolvers chambered in 32 S&W that he would have concluded that it too was "wonderfully effective". After all the shooter would only have 6 rounds at most, so how many times would each dead person likely be shot?
It doesn't take much intelligence to know that given 2 wounds in the exact same spot, with the exact same amount of penetration, with very similar velocities, the larger diameter wound will be more effective. However, there is way more at play in self defense than just wound diameter.

These were done by the civilian market, not solely for military.

Reason being performance. All things equal, a larger bullet does more permanent damage. ever hear "a 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink"? Well there's some truth to that.



First time I ever heard that. Be honest with you, if a situation in warfare comes down to a pistol and its cartridge, the S has really, really hit the fan.


For many years, when Europe coughed, everyone got a cold. Seems to reign true these days.

I really didn't see the need for the change. I bet if we could account for the number of enemies KIA by the .45 ACP 1911 from WWI to Vietnam it wouldn't impress the likes of McNamara.


9mm is nominal .355" .45 ACP is nominal .451". We're talking a mere .096". The real reason for the change was political. One nation used the .45 ACP while dozens used the 9mm. Guess who won?
You seem to assume that dozens of the countries using 9mm para round just parroted Germany without going to any round effectiveness trials. AFAIK any standard round choice was a result of extensive trials in Germany, France, England and Russia, and probably other countries as well (that I never read about).

The large caliber isn't anyting new. All european powers went from large caliber revolvers to much smaller calibers around WWI. There must have been a number of reasons.

Gelatin is used as a test medium because it approximates living tissue, there being a lack of willing live test subjects. Naturally a bullet will perform differently.

Indeed. Gelatin is calibrated to approximate muscle tissue. A given bullet will perform differently in living muscle than in dead muscle. Different in a defensive end's muscle than in that of a small female who runs a cash register. Throw in skin, fat, bone, and various organ tissues...and it'll perform differently in a given body depending on where it hits. Add layers of different types of clothing, and it gets real interesting.

I consider gelatin to be mostly useful as a consistent, repeatable medium for comparing the performance of different bullets rather than providing any idea of what a bullet will do when it hits living tissue.

I have always found that any report or study that supports my preconceived idea is always based on sound analysis and well founded data.

If the study or report does not support my preconceived idea then the analysis and data are definitely biased and faulty.

gpb posted
I have always found that any report or study that supports my preconceived idea is always based on sound analysis and well founded data. If the study or report does not support my preconceived idea then the analysis and data are definitely biased and faulty.
True, very true. Sad, but understandable. What I can't understand is someone like the O.P., who scours the internet, finds a report that draws conclusions that are not in evidence, then immediately posts an adversarial thread quoting it. BY GOD! He's gonna put those stupid 9mm carriers in their place.
I just don't get it.:(

We killed 30-40,000 enemies so far in the Sandbox, I'm guessing 97% of those with the 5.56. The M14 is not that common in the field. MK262 will get and has gotten plenty of one shot kills out to 700m. Well known in the military the old M855 sucks. The new version is better but not optimal. MK262 is proving itself. I've been in contact with several DMR soldiers over the recent years. They stuffed the M14 in the trunk and kept the MK12 on hand, rarely bringing out the 7.62 due to bulk. A MK12 with MK262 ammunition will be capable of 700-800m kills. The M14 had its day, but there's a reason they've been in storage for this many wars.
I never said it didn't work. The subject was "best", I would say .50BMG or 7.62 is typically better in fewer shots. With today's refinements and optics the 5.56 works. I am one whose chose to stay on the M-60 rather than go back to the M-16 as long as I could get away with it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but some of the smaller caliber assault rifle rounds are actually much more likely to cause extensive internal damage due to high velocity low mass bullet tumbling inside the body, ricocheting from bones etc. I know that this was certainly the case with AK74 rounds. I heard and read many accounts of horrendous damage a single shot from this gun would produce vs a relatively clean straight wound channel from a 7.62mm AKM.

The M16 did that, but as I understand it, when they changed the rifling to 1/12 that stabilized the bullet and that ended.

Several people know him personally that run various firearm related businesses; credible sources that are well known (LAV for one). It's not BS, it's factual.

LOL, you know people that supposedly know him and so that makes everything real?

I see an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year, and I can tell you that when the chips are down, there's nothing that beats a 12-gauge. As for handguns, the name of the game is not only shot placement but how a properly-placed bullet acts once it gets there. I've seen folks killed by a bb to the eye and others survive after being hit by several well-placed rounds with a 9mm.

Based what I can verify, the fabricating of information starts at this point in the article, if not before. Nobody works 365 a year. And what does 8.2 autopsies a day look like? It looks like 2993 autopsies a year? Nobody does that many per year. He may see 8.2 autopsies a day like the head of my auto service place sees about 70 cars a day. In other words, he may "see" bodies goes go by him, but he doesn't examine them which he implies overtly.

Looking at ME offices with loads this heavy, they are handled by large staffs, usually with 10-15 forensic pathologists to handle the load (on average) plus a large administrative staff. Nobody works 24/7/365. At best, the guy signs off on the reports and so likely isn't even witnessing all the autopsies first hand.

Looking at 8.2 autopsies a day another way, how many are actually gun-shot related? Heck, the FCME in Atlanta has a pretty heavy load, but maybe only 1/3 of the autopsies are homicide/suicide-related and obviously not all of those are going to be firearms-related. So the notion of the oh-so impressive number of 8.2 autopsies a day comes down to 2-3 folks who might have died intentionally and some lesser number that were firearms-related.

The guy is throwing out the 8.2 a day because it is the only number he may have (assuming it was even real) because he doesn't actually have any quantified terminal ballistic information.

He is fabricating information. He may be real, but then he is a real liar.

All we have here is the opinion of someone who is not willing to publish his real name and credentials in which he tries to make a case for big and slow bullet.

On the other hand we have published research that is well documented by Evan Marshall and Sanow in two books; Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Their work is unbiased and compares most handgun calibers.

On the other hand we have published research that is well documented by Evan Marshall and Sanow in two books; Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Their work is unbiased and compares most handgun calibers.

Actually, we don't know the biases of M&S's work because we don't know exactly what data they used, how it was gathered, etc.

You're correct in what you're thinking. Yes, the 9mm and .380 are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or 9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45.

This quote from the website screams BS to me. Multiple hits being required to stop an aggressor are common with all pistol calibers.

Once you have a decent caliber shot placement is what's really important, lots of shots in the right place.

Hey Jethro er Double Naught Spy,

Another Double Naught Spy fan here.

I am confused by your statement. Marshall and Sanow research methods and fact finding were discussed and published many times back when their book was published. At the time they came under a lot of personal and professional attacks because of their findings.

M&S never promoted one caliber or bullet over another. In fact on pg. 5 of Street Stoppers it states "one of the main purposes of this book and its predecessor, Handgun Stopping Power, is to assist you in deciding what that "certain point" is for you."

We killed 30-40,000 enemies so far in the Sandbox, I'm guessing 97% of those with the 5.56.

You would be guessing incorrectly. Most of the kills scored in the sandbox wars do not come from small arms fire at all. Certainly there have been a great deal killed, but no where near the 97% you guessed.

This whole article is just another caliber war. You can kill someone with a stone and sling, or a .50BMG or andthing in between. There is little evidence for (and plenty of evidence against) the .40 and .45 caliber rounds being one-shot-man-stoppers. In theory, a .40 or .45 can kill in one shot, but so can a .380 or 9mm.

so to sum up the article and ensuing debate with a word... yawn.

^^ This. We have put a lot of time and money into making sure that we don't have to fight wars by hunting the enemy, rifle to rifle. The most effective weapon is indirect fire. We keep air support on speed dial. And of those who were killed by small arms, I'm going to venture that the bulk of them were killed by crew-served weapons, not grunts hunting them one at a time.

Never assume that anyone you shoot with anything is just going to fall down and stop trying to kill you. Assume every one of them is a Terminator and will just keep coming. Be pleasantly surprised if they don't.

On the other hand we have published research that is well documented by Evan Marshall and Sanow in two books; Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Their work is unbiased and compares most handgun calibers.

A-hahahahahahahahahaha, no. Those books are complete garbage. They're the rodeo clowns of terminal ballistics.

I am confused by your statement. Marshall and Sanow research methods and fact finding were discussed and published many times back when their book was published. At the time they came under a lot of personal and professional attacks because of their findings.

Yes, the discussed methods, but without data there is no way to know if they actually applied those methods correctly. Without data, there is no way to know what biases they undoubtedly introduced into their sampling scheme. To date, nobody has ever been able to replicate their findings.

I am trying to locate a news story of a man shot 22 times with a .40 with 17 of them hitting center of mass and it took the guy several MINUTES to die after the last round was fired. Anyone able to help?

EDIT TO ADD: During the time he was shot he was still able to severely wound the officer shooting him.

When I worked for the NRA a number of years ago, I collected numerous accounts of civilian shootings. One thing that floored me was the large numbers of bad guys killed with .25 autos and .22LRs.

I knew a guy who was working on his house when he was shot with a .22LR. It felt like a bad bee sting and then he became dizzy and had to lie down. He almost died from the shot, but it's interesting that the police were able to trace the gun shot from a couple of kids who stopped somewhere and fired their handgun several times. The distance (as the crow flies) was one mile!

My dad grew up in the country in Western Kentucky. He had a Remington 34 that he used to carry to school (those were the good old days!). He said that the .22LR was greatly underrated as a defensive weapon, and that there are several larger calibers he'd rather be shot with. The bullet's inability to penetrate the body made it a doctor's nightmare. (His term.)

One weapon I saw continually popping up in news articles were the Beretta .25 autos. They've been effectively used numerous times.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/Beretta21A_950.jpg

Another gun that's been both damned and praised is the Jennings J-22. Mine works for about four clip fulls and then begins to jam. If I give it a quick cleaning with a tooth brush, it goes for another four clip fulls. The .25 Raven also is used by both civilians and bad guys.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/Jennings.jpg

found this,
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

On the other hand we have published research that is well documented by Evan Marshall and Sanow in two books; Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Their work is unbiased and compares most handgun calibers.

Marshal and Sanow's work is in fact well known as misinformation in both the statistics and wound ballistics professions.

I was actually allowed to do an analysis of their results for a term paper in my sophomore stats class at ASU... turns out my Prof was a shooter :)

It was presented "neat" by myself in class at first (just the data/results/analysis) then the Professor went beyond my piddly attempt, and told the class what the data was actually discussing.

He proved, by statistical analysis, that there was NO data set (even if you included EVERY shooting in the time period they represented) that could have given the results claimed by M&S. That the results so closely matched their hypothesis was surely accidental, he said. The whole class (even the ones that went "ewww" when told we were talking about shooting human beings) snickered at that.

Later in the year, buoyed by his/our success at grossing out the class with shooting people, he presented the Strasbourg Goat data set as well. He restricted himself to showing that the weights of the animals followed no known distribution.

He also aware of, but did not present, information about M&S's financial arrangements/investments... among them a certain manufacturer of low weight/high speed handgun rounds intended for SD.

As my professor pointed out in class, this was serious stuff... people were making potentially life or death decisions on made up data. Not to mention spending taxpayer money arming police based on it.

And if all this isn't enough... ask Marty Fackler what he thinks about it.

Sorry, but M&S's study is and was BS.

Again, why are we looking and relying on sources other than the mounds of data and evidence the FBI has been keeping since the early 30's? The same data that we're all scrambling for in this thread is available and was formative in the issued caliber for Field Agents. In my own personal opinion, I wouldn't waste my time looking for the "one shot kill" round, since that is a tactical blunder to start with. Whatever caliber I carry, I'll fire the weapon until the threat is neutralized or my weapon is dry.;)

LD

Sorry, but M&S's study is and was BS. I've been a "gun guy" for years (I'm 43yo and an Army Vet) and had seen the Evan Marshal stats published regularly for years in several periodicals. This thread is the first I've ever heard of their info/data being inaccurate or misleading. Honestly, how the heck did I miss this? Thanks to everyone regarding this and I want to learn more on the subject now.

M&S problems...
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

http://www.kuci.org/~dany/firearms/stoppers.html

---------------------

When I worked for the NRA a number of years ago, I collected numerous accounts of civilian shootings. One thing that floored me was the large numbers of bad guys killed with .25 autos and .22LRs.

There are large numbers killed not because the caliber is effective, but because of how many people are shot with it. You will find a lot more people walking into the ER with a .22 wound than you will find them walking in with a 9mm wound. There is also a tremendous survival rate with .22 as well.

My dad grew up in the country in Western Kentucky. He had a Remington 34 that he used to carry to school (those were the good old days!). He said that the .22LR was greatly underrated as a defensive weapon, and that there are several larger calibers he'd rather be shot with. The bullet's inability to penetrate the body made it a doctor's nightmare. (His term.)

I don't see how the bullet would be a doctor's nightmare if it can't penetrate the body. With that said, of those that do, they are readily located with x-rays.

One weapon I saw continually popping up in news articles were the Beretta .25 autos. They've been effectively used numerous times.

Once again, it isn't the absolute number of cases that is salient, but the relative percentage.

I knew a guy who was working on his house when he was shot with a .22LR. It felt like a bad bee sting and then he became dizzy and had to lie down. He almost died from the shot, but it's interesting that the police were able to trace the gun shot from a couple of kids who stopped somewhere and fired their handgun several times. The distance (as the crow flies) was one mile!

I think the information in your story is exaggerated. While a .22 may travel a mile, it is unlikely to be traveling of sufficient velocity to penetrate very much. At 1 mile, a 40 gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps is down below 400 fps at 1000 yards.

The .22 may kill a lot of people, but it has a terrible reputation as a round that will physiologically stop people.

...

I don't see how the bullet would be a doctor's nightmare if it can't penetrate the body. With that said, of those that do, they are readily located with x-rays.

...

If the bullet goes right through, all the doctor have to worry about is the damage it leaves behind. Which may by itself be enough.

If the bullet gets stuck in the body, it has to be removed - creating further damage. Or left in with a possibility of problems down the road.

For the purposes of a limited discussion I will comment on the article in http://www.kuci.org/~dany/firearms/stoppers.html

The author writes;

“A basic criteria for evaluating a study is whether, in fact, it measures what it claims to measure. In the case of Marshall and Sanow's "one shot stop" figures, what they claim to measure is the relative incapacitation capability of cartridges. But what the study actually measures is the tendency of shooters of any particular caliber to cease fire before incapacitating.

He then goes on to write “If shooters firing .32ACP were trained to fire until their subjects were incapacitated, the one-shot-stop index for .32ACP would be 100%.”

I still remember my math well enough to know the difference between one and more than one. His beef is with the ill-train masses that only shoot a attacker once instead of shooting multiple times. If he had truly taken time to read Street Stoppers, chapter 24, Effects of Multiple Bullet Impacts, he would have read “results show that the double tap is a overhyped technique that has little effect in the real world….I dropped it…. These days I tell my students to continue to fire until the attacker is no longer in their sight picture.”

There are problems with conclusion in the other articles but it will not change the minds of those that dispute M&S’s research.

I have seen a man full of rage get shot several times by a 12 guage shotgun , high on drugs , still storming the policeman who was shooting him , almost killing him with a knife if it was not for another leo pulling a 9mm and shooting him right between the eyes.
I once had an employee who had a dent in his forehead , made by an ak 47 round that deflected off it. when it comes to combat , luck has a large role to play

If the bullet goes right through, all the doctor have to worry about is the damage it leaves behind. Which may by itself be enough.

If the bullet gets stuck in the body, it has to be removed - creating further damage. Or left in with a possibility of problems down the road.

These are concerns common to ballistic wounds regardless of caliber. The .22 lr isn't special in this regard and my comments were specifically in regard to the claim that a .22 lr was a doctor's nightmare.

Well in warfare the object isn't always to kill. If you injure a soldier you have reduced the foe by 3. If you kill a soldier the foe is down by only 1. So the object in war is to play the game, both physically and psychologically.
ll

Well in warfare the object isn't always to kill. If you injure a soldier you have reduced the foe by 3.

Keep in mind this only works on enemies that value human life and don't seek to be martyrs, such as the current batch of terrorists we are fighting in the middle east. You won't see them drag away their wounded to safety in the heat of a firefight.

Well in warfare the object isn't always to kill. If you injure a soldier you have reduced the foe by 3. If you kill a soldier the foe is down by only 1.

That's an oft repeated myth. As stated, it assumes a value for life, but it also negates that soldiers on the field aren't going to drop everything to tote out wounded. Wounded will be cared for as the ability to do so dictates (ie, either dedicated medics/personnel who aren't fighting anyways will be doing that job, or there is a lull in the fighting where the men can be spared without regard to the outcome of the battle).

Amazing that anyone got killed in the civil war with those 36 caliber black powder revolvers.

yeah,
were is the dead horse smiley already...

I am fine with my 9mm Glocks. I feel safe with the 9mm as it is a good service round. The NYPD and Chicago PD have had good results with them.

this thread is so far off topic it isn't even funny

I am trying to locate a news story of a man shot 22 times with a .40 with 17 of them hitting center of mass and it took the guy several MINUTES to die after the last round was fired. Anyone able to help?

EDIT TO ADD: During the time he was shot he was still able to severely wound the officer shooting him.

That would be the Peter Soulis incident, Soulis being the officer involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1h9PYRZKMc
http://m.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

The incident isn't quite as you indicated. Soulis was shot in the chest (hit vest), left arm twice, and thigh before Palmer was wounded. So it wasn't that Palmer was shot 22 times and then injured Soulis. The 17 COM shots were not actually all COM, but shots on the body. In other words, there were a lot of shots to non-vital areas of the body. No doubt some of the wounds overlapped. When wounds overlap, redamaging and already damaged area does not add much in the way of more damage. It is still impressive to absorb that much physical insult, however.

Two Hazleton officers justifiably fired 108 rounds, killing a teen who was accused of shooting a 9-year-old boy and a police officer, Luzerne County District Attorney David Lupas said Wednesday.

George T. Deeb III’s actions, which included reloading his weapon two times and firing 25 rounds at police, warranted Cpl. John Leonard and officer Shawn Conti using fatal force, Lupas said.

Leonard fired 34 rounds from a rifle and another 45 shots from his .40-caliber service pistol. Conti, who suffered a wound to his forehead after being struck by a bullet fragment, fired 29 shots from his .40-caliber service pistol.

‘It must be understood throughout this time period Mr. Deeb was given numerous orders to cease and desist which he failed to abide by, Lupas said at a press conference announcing the officers had been cleared of any wrongdoing.

Authorities also outlined how Deeb, 18, initiated the Nov. 29 gunfight. First, he telephoned police, baiting them to a North Cedar Street parking lot on a dark, foggy night. Then, without warning, he opened fire on officer Keith McAlarney, the first to arrive on scene. At point-blank range Deeb fired a shot from a semi-automatic pistol through the passenger-side window of McAlarney’s cruiser.

After trying to hit Deeb with his cruiser, McAlarney hastily backed the car out of the parking lot near Harman-Geist Stadium. McAlarney was able to get away, but not before a bullet shattered a bone in his left arm.

Deeb was struck 17 times, said Luzerne County Coroner Dr. John Consalvo. A bullet that grazed Deeb’s liver, and others that struck his chest and neck, caused his lungs to fill with blood, resulting in his death, the coroner said. ‘If there was ever a suicide by cop, this was it,’ Consalvo said.

Despite the number of shots to his abdomen, chest, neck and extremities, 11 of which exited his body, Deeb continued to struggle with police even after he was lying on the ground, authorities said. It took a few officers to restrain Deeb so he could be handcuffed and placed on a stretcher, authorities said.

XXXXXXXXXX

WARNING: The following link contains graphic autopsy photographs of the deceased attacker from the incident described above. Keep in mind that the following link is an FBI report addressing MISINFORMATION REGARDING AMMUNITION TERMINAL PERFORMANCE as reported on a law enforcement discussion board – the account of the incident on slide 6 of the report is UNTRUE. See - http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf

Best comments I ever heard on the whole 9mm vs 45...

'All that 9mm ball I was issued must've been defective! It sure killed a lot of guys I shot with it.' -- from a former Royal Marine Commando and Special Boat Service guy

'Listen, Sonny, in the war I shot a lot of men. None of them ever told me I killed them with too small a bullet.' -- A member of the 1st Special Service Force, the father of a friend of mine, talking to an RO at a USPSA match after having Major & Minor power factor explained to him.

It's not BS, it's Factual

He's a forensic anthropologist with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.

I think I see our problem - He's an anthropologist.

I am an anthropology student myself; I have had some instruction on the subject, and I have read the textbooks used in this field. They all have one thing in common ...

They SUCK at describing gun shot trauma! Seriously - every forensic textbook I have ever seen glosses over important aspects of terminal ballistics and/or makes broad generalizations about gun types in general, to that point that a forensic tech with no other instruction could easily mistake certain pistol wounds for rifle shots, or misidentify bullet diameter, ect.

If the guys only knowledge of terminal ballistics came from the forensic books he read in college, then I have no doubt at all he was shocked to find the reality very different, and in his confusion, made several generalizations or exaggerations of his field findings.

never mind

I think I see our problem - He's an anthropologist.

I am an anthropology student myself; I have had some instruction on the subject, and I have read the textbooks used in this field. They all have one thing in common ...

They SUCK at describing gun shot trauma! Seriously - every forensic textbook I have ever seen glosses over important aspects of terminal ballistics and/or makes broad generalizations about gun types in general, to that point that a forensic tech with no other instruction could easily mistake certain pistol wounds for rifle shots, or misidentify bullet diameter, ect.

Your summary dismissal of physical anthropologists is extremely naive and inappropriate without direct knowledge of the person in general. There are numerous noteworthy forensic physical anthropogists.

Just what are these textbooks with the inappropriate information that you claim suck so badly that you have written off all physical anthropogists as being incompetent on any matter concerning GSW?

The 9mm has been around for... a century?. It has fought wars, quite a few. We may ask all those who have died as a result of a 9mm shot if they think it's ineffective.

BTW, I read the "report". All I found out is that this guy has something against the 9mm and will do whatever is in his hands to despise it. True that a .40 or .45 has more punch, but not that the 9mm can't do the job, period.

I don't know if original story was true or made-up, but the following:

"I've read that whole series of posts at least three times now, and while it's a really good read and well written, I'm still comfortable carrying .380 auto, 9x19, and .38 special. Doesn't mean I don't carry .45 acp or .357 mag as well, but I take it with a grain of salt."

...makes me wonder. How many guns does this individual carry at a time --and for what earthly purpose ?????

I read his report a few years ago hoping to get something factual for my personal use. I dismissed most of his conclusions but liked the way he wrote. I will always want to be armed with at least a 9mm (which I carried for many years) and even then I have known a cop that shot a felon with a 9 then got knifed to death by that same felon. (Cop was using FMJ, felon died a few moments later).

I see an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year,
Stop and think about that for a minute. Do the math. This guy is saying that he views almost 3000 autopsies per year. Now, consider this. Most deaths do not require an autopsy...only those where the cause of death is in question or some other unusual circumstance.

More to the point: How many cities have 3000 firearms deaths per year?

None.

From the FBI's latest stats, in 2010 there were about 12,000 handgun-related homicides in the whole country.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain
Can you imagine one city that had 25% of all of these?
No? Neither can anyone else. Not DC, not Chicago, not LA, not Detroit, not Philidelpia, not Dallas, not Miami... Certainly not Atlanta. :rolleyes:

This guy has appeared in a number of places using different screen names (the first time I saw him was on the S&W forum several years ago). His credibility has been called into question repeatedly...with good reason. When called out, he disappears and pops up somewhere else.

After reading enough of this, I call it an excercise in creative writing. Or to be less diplomatic, I call BS.

Stop and think about that for a minute. Do the math. This guy is saying that he views almost 3000 autopsies per year. Now, consider this. Most deaths do not require an autopsy...only those where the cause of death is in question or some other unusual circumstance.

I think the math was already done up in post 31. ;)

Stop and think about that for a minute. Do the math. This guy is saying that he views almost 3000 autopsies per year. Now, consider this. Most deaths do not require an autopsy...only those where the cause of death is in question or some other unusual circumstance.

More to the point: How many cities have 3000 firearms deaths per year?

None.

From the FBI's latest stats, in 2010 there were about 12,000 handgun-related homicides in the whole country.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expandhomicidemain
Can you imagine one city that had 25% of all of these?
No? Neither can anyone else. Not DC, not Chicago, not LA, not Detroit, not Philidelpia, not Dallas, not Miami... Certainly not Atlanta. :rolleyes:

This guy has appeared in a number of places using different screen names (the first time I saw him was on the S&W forum several years ago). His credibility has been called into question repeatedly...with good reason. When called out, he disappears and pops up somewhere else.

After reading enough of this, I call it an excercise in creative writing. Or to be less diplomatic, I call BS.
Thank you for at least quoting a credible source!:D

LD

How many guns does this individual carry at a time --and for what earthly purpose ?????

Are you trying to make a joke? Did you really read that to mean that I carry all those calibers at the same time?

:confused:

This is humbug. Over four decades in Police work I learned the 10% / 90% rule well. If 10% of what someone says is BS then the other 90% is highly suspect. The writer lost me when he was bragging about the number of post-mortem exams he saw every day ("365 days a year"). I call BS on that. Nobody in Atlanta's morgues or anywhere else sees Posts 365 days a year. If he needs to lie about that then he's a liar and deserves no attention to his other statements.

...and it is just opinion...perhaps with a bit more information (a more informed opinion ?) but opinion just the same...if what he said were true, all Medical Examiners would agree and we'd have the answer on caliber, etc...we don't...just more information for the mental library...YMMV...

Bill

More caliber wars. One assumes the test subjects were all equally dead?

More caliber wars. One assumes the test subjects were all equally dead?

They may be equally dead, but not necessarily equally stopped. Percentage of lethality isn't very helpful is the lethal aspect is very slow and the bad guy has a chance to reap additional harm while dying. Some may have died seconds, minutes, hours, or days after being shot.

Your summary dismissal of physical anthropologists is extremely naive and inappropriate without direct knowledge of the person in general. There are numerous noteworthy forensic physical anthropogists.

Just what are these textbooks with the inappropriate information that you claim suck so badly that you have written off all physical anthropogists as being incompetent on any matter concerning GSW?

Is that not what you have just done?

My focus is in physical anthropology. The above post is mostly light hearted in nature. You take yourself way too seriously - Every anthropologist I know, regardless of focus, is open to jokes and criticism. Strange that you are not?

Is that not what you have just done?
Nope, I haven't summarily dismissed anybody.

My focus is in physical anthropology. The above post is mostly light hearted in nature. You take yourself way too seriously - Every anthropologist I know, regardless of focus, is open to jokes and criticism. Strange that you are not?

Jokes are fine. Your statement indicated nothing about it being a joke and you offered as supporting proof that the textbooks were garbage. I called your bluff and when you could not produce, you backtracked and claimed humor. Now that is funny.

The only conclusive evidence we will ever have on handgun caliber is ballistics gel testing with similar ammo for different calibers. In all the testing I have seen, differences in calibers for handguns is negligible. I mean we are talking .67 vs .70 expansion with ~.5 difference in penetration when comparing a .45acp vs 9mm.

Now, if we are comparing FMJ ammo - I agree .45acp is a more sound choice over the 9mm; however, a 9mm will certainly do the job, obviously.

Good HP ammo - Doesn't matter - either will do a lot of damage.


That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Good HP ammo - Doesn't matter - either will do a lot of damage.


That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Amen to that. End of story.

Arguing about what a single round of something does in ballistic gel is pretty much irrelevant.

You should not be training to fire single rounds at threats. 2 to 3 rounds per target is the bare minimum.

Most rounds in firearms engagements are misses. You should plan you concealed carry choices around those two facts. Hit the threat at least twice, and most of the rounds you shoot won't even be hits.

Let's hope you have some rounds left over.

Well I'll quote myself here from one of the several threads on this topic that have appeared over the years. Actually may be worth it for folks to review some of the discussions.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=610642


tipoc

The whole ballistics business stems form the "big fish in a small pond theory" Two or three "experts" out there that with a captive audience. Folks will jump on a bandwagon and ride it out espousing the "experts" and citing their "studies" blowing off many valid arguments/contentions/observations. "Absorb what is useful"-Bruce Lee.