Range doesn't allow tulammo


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Ledgehammer
November 26, 2011, 07:28 PM
Anybody ever heard of that? I was at the range today and the RM told me they don't allow it anymore due to ricochet and sparks. I did notice some sparks last time I shot tulammo, but no ricochets. What would cause that?

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Rail Driver
November 26, 2011, 07:29 PM
Maybe the bi-metal jacket? I've only ever noticed sparks at the muzzle but then the range I shoot at has a dirt berm.

Strykervet
November 26, 2011, 07:30 PM
They must use steel in the jackets. Not good for your barrel either. It is the reason magnets stick to it even though it isn't an AP round (all lead inside). That won't work on copper jacketed bullets unless they have a penetrator.

Ledgehammer
November 26, 2011, 07:36 PM
Yup. He stuck it to a magnet to show me. Good to know.

The Lone Haranguer
November 26, 2011, 08:01 PM
The indoor range I shot at in AZ didn't allow any steel in the bullet either.

rcmodel
November 26, 2011, 08:17 PM
Almost all Russian & Chinese ammo is bi-metal jacket unless stated otherwise.
Neither country has any copper mines to speak of like we do.

The U.S. military has long used the same steel-jacket copper-clad bullets in some M80 7.6251mm NATO ammo.

It won't hurt your bore, as the steel used is much softer then your barrel.
And the thin copper coating provides a dissimilar metal to prevent similar metals galling to each other.

It may hurt the range if they use steel targets, or steel back-stops.
Or it may start a grass fire from the sparks.

It may also adversely effect the ranges recycle brass sales from all those steel cases the steel jacket bullets were loaded in! :D

rc

The Lone Haranguer
November 26, 2011, 08:31 PM
It may hurt the range if they use steel targets, or steel back-stops.

The range I mentioned said steel-cored or -jacketed bullets damage the backstop. IIRC, it was steel netting interlaced with rubber strips that came from shredding old tires.

Mr.Blue
November 26, 2011, 10:45 PM
One of the indoor ranges by me prohibits it too. They say it destroys the backstops and ricochets more easily. I have seen someone shoot it at the range and it definitely sparks against the backstop. I was also hit by a fragment when this clown hit the steel target holder at 10yds.

Wanderling
November 26, 2011, 10:48 PM
I used three indoor ranges around here and all three use magnets to make sure you don't bring steel cased ammo.

jmstevens2
November 26, 2011, 10:51 PM
It may also adversely effect the ranges recycle brass sales from all those steel cases the steel jacket bullets were loaded in! :D

rc

That is why my range stopped allowing it.

Averageman
November 27, 2011, 09:37 AM
It may also adversely effect the ranges recycle brass sales from all those steel cases the steel jacket bullets were loaded in!
That is why my range stopped allowing it.
Gentlemen, please never underestimate the power of Greed.

pikid89
November 27, 2011, 09:41 AM
destruction of the backstop seems like a good reason to disallow it, but my range told me they don't allow it because it blows up peoples guns lol

deadin
November 27, 2011, 09:43 AM
Gentlemen, please never underestimate the power of Greed.

Remember that greed works both ways... Why other than the fact that the steel surplus stuff is cheap would anyone want to use it??:evil:

Double Naught Spy
November 27, 2011, 09:43 AM
Almost all Russian & Chinese ammo is bi-metal jacket unless stated otherwise.
Neither country has any copper mines to speak of like we do.

Actually, Russia is the 7th leading producer of copper. China is still behind the curve but that is apt to change in the future.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Russia-MINING.html
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Asia-and-Oceania/China-MINING.html

One of the indoor ranges by me prohibits it too. They say it destroys the backstops and ricochets more easily. I have seen someone shoot it at the range and it definitely sparks against the backstop. I was also hit by a fragment when this clown hit the steel target holder at 10yds.

You know, ranges claim all sorts of reasons for not allowing various sorts of ammo. There are ranges that won't allow Blazer aluminum cased and Wolf steel cased ammo either, claiming that it is dangerous to use.

Steel jacketed ammo isn't going to be significantly more likely to cause ricochet's. You can be hit by fragments from copper jacketed ammo just as easily as with steel jacketed ammo when shooting at steel targets at close range and not being safe about it.

Sparks? LOL, I have see lots of sparks by copper jacketed ammo, especially rifle ammo when hitting steel and concrete. Contrary to popular belief, copper and lead most definitely will spark. The sparks are superheated fragments that come off the bullets when they impact into a hard surface. Some of those fragments heat up enough to radiate into the visual spectrum.

EddieNFL
November 27, 2011, 09:44 AM
I used three indoor ranges around here and all three use magnets to make sure you don't bring steel cased ammo.

Why? Does it spark when ejected?

Walkalong
November 27, 2011, 09:45 AM
the power of Greed.
Simply good business practice.


Our range uses dirt backstops, so they do not care about what ammo we shoot, as long as we hit the berm.

One thing they do not allow is exploding targets like Tannerite.

Double Naught Spy
November 27, 2011, 12:20 PM
Why? Does it spark when ejected?
They probably don't allow aluminum cased ammo either. The reason has to do with recycling the cases for reloads. Steel and aluminum won't recycle and picking them from the brass cases is a pain.

pikid89
November 27, 2011, 12:26 PM
thats the funny thing at my range, tula and wolf are banned, but blazer aluminum is ok, as is sellier & Bellot, with its copper washed steel cases

Prince Yamato
November 27, 2011, 01:38 PM
It has to do with reselling brass casings. That's it. Steel cased ammo is no less safe than brass cased ammo.

EddieNFL
November 27, 2011, 01:43 PM
thats the funny thing at my range, tula and wolf are banned, but blazer aluminum is ok, as is sellier & Bellot, with its copper washed steel cases

Apparently, logic doesn't apply. It rarely does in such instances. There is a public range an hour or so to the west. No double taps/rapid fire allowed; full auto is okay.

Averageman
November 27, 2011, 02:11 PM
Gentlemen, please never underestimate the power of Greed.
Simply good business practice.
No, to quote Mr. Geco "Greed is good." It is good to act in our own self interests. If you find something that functions well for you at a lower price you would be silly not to buy it.
To be quite honest if your range is taking your brass, or you are giving it to them it would be silly for them not to try to sell it back to you or another customer. To take it a step further they can prohibit you from using any ammo that they can't potentially make a nickle off of...to be honest that in my opinion may be taking it a step too far, but Caveat Emptor.
Remember that greed works both ways... Why other than the fact that the steel surplus stuff is cheap would anyone want to use it??
You know what I found out this weekend? My CC pistol a G17 with a custom slide and a match barrel; simply loves Tula Ammo. It's dirty, its cheap and it cycles without a hitch and is very accurate round to round. I tried the same thing with Winchester White Box and it was as erratic and no two rounds would hit the same place. I fired from a rest with a mounted Trijicon RMR, so it was a pretty reliable example for me that it is a good deal for practise ammo.
As far as Range Rules and Range Masters (and I think some of them take the Master thing just a bit too far) I shop for my range as well as my ammo. Now I can draw from my holster, shoot double taps and even move off the X on this range. Talk about a good training range, I'm very happy.

Walkalong
November 27, 2011, 02:20 PM
You said what I said, simply good business practice for the range. If people do not want to pick up their brass (and I don't find it first), the range would be silly not to sell it.

Some ranges won't let you pick up your own brass. Crazy. Assuming another choice is available, I would never shoot there. I believe you said primarily the same thing.

I personally want to thank all the non reloaders who leave us brass.

Some ranges are pretty strict, but if you don't have options, one lives with it. If they are restricting shooting steel case because they don't want to have to separate it out, that would sit poorly with me.

Averageman
November 27, 2011, 02:30 PM
My Son is a begining shooter. I built a nice 10-22 for him and we enjoy our shooting as much as our time together.
When it comes time to clean up, he never says a peep about policing up his brass or sweeping before we leave. One trip to the public range was all it took. If he notices the difference and is willing to do a little work to keep a private range, I know we are headed in the right direction.
All it costs him to shoot a days worth of .22's is 100 empties .45 or 9mm, LOL.

rbernie
November 27, 2011, 02:34 PM
Most local indoor ranges prohibit steel case ammo and steel jacketed ammo. Imagine my surprise to learn yesterday afternoon that my S&B 7.62x39 brass-cased soft points were, in fact, steel jacketed.

<grumble grumble>

Walkalong
November 27, 2011, 04:08 PM
All it costs him to shoot a days worth of .22's is 100 empties .45 or 9mm, LOL.Yea, a kid willing to scrounge and sell cases could keep himself in .22 ammo forever. Smart kid.

Tcruse
November 27, 2011, 04:56 PM
The bimetal jacket on the bullet really does not make a difference for the shooter, now is it harder on the backstop, maybe but probably just an myth. Steel cased ammo has some downside based on the coating to prevent rust and the ammo age, but generally way over stated. The aluminium case is as good as brass (and stronger by some tests). The TNJ (Nylon jacket) ammo is another thing to look at, probably the best that you can get for indoor ranges and reasonably priced locally. For reloading, brass case with boxer primmers is the only choice at this time.

Jeff F
November 27, 2011, 07:42 PM
Steel jacketed bullets can and have started wildfires around here. I only shoot copper jacketed bullets in the desert. I save the steel jacket stuff for the two ranges I practice at that have dirt berm backstops and no restrictions on ammo.

dc.fireman
November 27, 2011, 09:29 PM
The ranges at MCB Quantico have had a ban in place on combloc ammunition since early 2008. They had a Marine working the pits, get hit by either a fragment or a riccochet (the story varies) and have disallowed their use ever since. Here's a link to their rules:

http://quanticoshootingclub.com/rules.php

Keep in mind, this incident occurred on the outdoor range - they have the ban in effect for the entire facility, indoor & out.

jmstevens2
November 28, 2011, 12:34 AM
Let us not forget, we are talking about steel backstops. Do you think they do not sell lead too? My range at the school is my supplier of lead for casting.

Fishslayer
November 28, 2011, 12:45 AM
Most local indoor ranges prohibit steel case ammo and steel jacketed ammo. Imagine my surprise to learn yesterday afternoon that my S&B 7.62x39 brass-cased soft points were, in fact, steel jacketed.

If you don't mind corrosive ammo several places sell Yugo milsurp x39 that is steel free. A couple places even sell it on 10rd stripper clips for SKS. Last week I ordered a crate of 1120 rounds on strippers in a sealed tin. It's Berdan primed so not rloadable but you can still sell the cases as scrap.

The range I go to prohibits any steel at all, and use a magnet to check.

I was itching to try out my new-to-me Mosin Nagant & picked up a box of WWB x54R FMJ.
Guess what? The jacket was magnetic!:fire:

Luckily I found another range whose only rules are "No .50 BMG and no armor piercing." Spam can milsurp steel core is GTG! :D

Odd Job
December 11, 2011, 06:53 PM
Pikid is that range Take Aim by any chance?

Lex Luthier
December 11, 2011, 08:29 PM
We have two local ranges who only allow brass. Apparently they collect it and do not want to mess with separating it. The outside range I like lets you shoot whatever you want.

fatcat4620
December 12, 2011, 07:23 PM
My range does not allow the Russian fmj ammo but does allow jhp and jsp. They said the fmj ruins the backstop.

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