Strasbourg Test Results

[cratz2]

Strasbourg Results

LOAD MV AIT IT-1 IT-2 IT-3 IT-4 IT-5 SD

.45 AUTO 5" BARREL

MagSafe 96gr +P 1622 4.68 4.4 4.2 4.8R 6.8R 3.2R 1.32
Glaser 140gr Blue 1355 4.72 2.1 3.5 6.6R 8.3R 3.1R 2.61
R-P 185gr JHP +P 1124 7.98 9.6R 10.8R 3.9 4.6 11.0R 3.46
Fed 230 Hydra-Shok 847 8.40 5.5 7.5R 11.7R 12.9R 4.4 3.75
CorBon 185 JHP +P 1156 8.56 6.6R 11.4R 8.0R 13.2R 3.6 3.82
W-W 185 Silver Tip 1004 8.82 12.9R 9.6R 6.1 4.1 11.4R 3.66
ECC 185 Starfire 924 8.88 6.2 5.4 10.9R 12.1R 9.8R 2.94
CCI 200gr JHP Lawman 936 8.90 8.9R 12.6R 4.9 9.3R 8.9R 2.73
W-W 230 BlackTalon 829 9.14 7.6 10.7R 9.8R 11.8R 5.8 2.42
CorBon 200 JHP +P 1043 9.22 10.4R 11.6R 11.5R 4.9 7.7 2.88
Fed 185 JHP 1011 9.24 7.3 12.0R 12.4R 8.6R 5.9 2.87
Hornady 185gr XTP-HP 939 10.66 6.8R 11.2 9.9R 12.3R 13.1R 2.47
Fed 230 FMJ (cont.) 839 13.84 14.1R 17.3R 12.9 10.2 14.7R 2.59

.40 S&W 4" BARREL

MagSafe 84gr Defender 1753 4.52 2.4 7.7R 3.3R 4.0R 5.2R 2.05
Glaser 105gr Blue 1449 5.34 8.9R 3.9R 4.2 7.5R 2.2 2.76
W-W 155 Silver Tip 1210 7.86 9.7 9.9R 8.6R 6.3R 4.8 2.23
Fed 155gr JHP 1142 7.90 10.1R 8.6R 8.9 4.5 7.4R 2.13
Fed 180gr Hydra-Shok 991 8.32 7.7 4.6 9.6R 9.2R 10.5R 2.31
R-P 255gr JHP 1136 8.40 4.8 8.8R 10.3R 8.2 9.9R 2.18
CorBon 150gr JHP 1183 8.42 11.1R 7.8R 9.1 9.5R 4.6 2.44
CorBon 180gr JHP 1044 8.66 9.6R 5.6 10.2R 9.0R 8.9 1.79
W-W 180gr BlackTalon 989 8.86 9.4 8.7R 7.8R 8.4 10.0R 0.86
R-P 180 JHP 988 8.90 8.5R 8.4 6.6R 10.1R 10.9R 1.67
CCI 155gr JHP Blaser 992 8.92 7.2 11.0R 10.3R 6.5 9.6R 1.97
Hornady 155gr XTP-HP 1157 10.38 11.2R 10.9R 13.1R 8.5 8.2 2.04
W-W 155gr FMJ (cont.) 1118 13.76 13.9 16.3R 10.9 16.6R 11.1 2.73

10mm Auto 4.25" Bbl.

MagSafe 96gr Defender 1729 4.48 3.8 4.9R 5.3R 1.8 6.6R 1.80
Fed 155gr JHP 1311 7.56 8.8R 9.9R 11R 3.4 4.7 3.33
Glaser 105gr Blue 1624 7.60 10.5R 6.8R 9.8R 4.8 6.1 2.45
Corbon 150 JHP +P 1286 7.66 4.1 8.9R 8.6R 6.5R 10.2R 2.39
W-W 175 SilverTip 1267 7.92 7.7R 4.4 9.2 8.4R 9.9R 2.13
Corbon 180gr JHP +P 1155 7.94 2.9 3.3 10.6R 9.8R 13.1R 4.59
Fed 180gr Hydra-Shok 995 8.22 5.3 10.7R 4.3 11.6R 9.2 3.26
R-P 180 JHP 1202 8.26 8.7R 7.3 10.2R 8.5 6.6R 1.39
ECC 180 Starfire 955 8.38 6.1 9.4R 10.4R 11.1R 4.9 2.73
Fed 180 JHP 1018 8.46 10.4R 8.8R 7.8R 3.2 12.1R 3.36
W-W 200 Black Talon 986 8.76 11.6R 5.6 8 6.1 12.5R 3.15
R-P 180 JHP * 996 8.88 5.5 10.8R 7.6R 11.9R 8.6 2.55
CCI 180 JHP 1133 8.96 10.6R 9.7R 8.4R 6 10.1 1.84
Hornady 200 XTP-HP 1121 10.22 8.7 7.5 13.5R 9.7R 11.7R 2.39
W-W 155gr FMJ (cont.) 1103 13.98 17.4R 13.3R 11.6 16R 11.6R 2.63

.357 Mag 4" Barrel

Quik-Shok 1409 4.40 1.9 1.4 7.9R 2.2 8.6R 3.53
MagSafe 68gr SWAT 1757 4.62 9.9R 1.7 2.1 1.9R 7.5R 3.82
Glaser 80gr Blue 1687 4.82 3.3 9.1R 2.9R 6.7R 2.1 2.97
R-P 125 JHP 1458 7.34 10.4R 4.8 9.8R 8.6R 3.1 3.22
Fed 125gr JHP 1442 7.44 2.9 2.2 11.9R 11.5R 8.7R 4.64
CorBon 125gr JHP 1419 7.66 11.8R 3.3 11.6R 7.4 4.2 3.99
Fed 110gr JHP 1351 7.72 5.7 13.8R 2.9 5.7 10.5R 4.36
W-W 125gr JHP 1382 7.76 14.2R 6.4 3.6 3.8 10.8R 4.62
CCI 125gr JHP Lawman 1367 7.78 12.6R 10.8R 3.9 6.0 5.6 3.72
Fed 158gr Hydra-Shok 1213 7.84 8.6R 3.3 9.3R 7.3R 10.7R 2.82
W-W 145 SilverTip 1285 7.86 3.7 14.1R 9.5R 3.4 8.6R 4.45
R-P 110gr JHP 1334 7.90 9.4R 13.0R 4.1 8.7R 4.3 3.75
R-P 125gr JHP 1277 7.94 8.9R 4.2 13.3R 9.4R 3.9 3.94
W-W 110gr JHP 1281 7.98 4.5 11.2R 11.8R 3.8 8.6R 3.71
CCI 140gr JHP Lawman 1322 8.06 10.8R 4.5 12.0R 3.2 9.8R 3.95
Fed 158gr JHP 1205 8.28 11.6R 8.7R 8.5 9.1R 3.5 2.95
R-P 158gr JHP 1220 8.30 13.9R 4.3 9.4R 5.9 8.0 3.69
W-W 158gr JHP 1246 8.34 4.0 8.9 11.4R 7.2 10.2 2.88
Fed 158gr Nyclad HP 1188 8.42 8.9R 10.0R 4.5 9.0R 9.7R 2.24
CCI 158gr JHP Lawman 1221 8.48 8.7 4.9 10.6R 9.4R 8.8 2.14
Hornady 125 XTP-HP 1314 10.88 8.6 6.8 11.4R 14.0R 13.6R 3.13
R-P 158gr JSP (cont.) 1224 12.80 15.8R 12.8R 14.1R 7.6 13.7R 3.10

.38 Special 4" Barrel

Glaser 80gr +P Blue 1667 4.72 9.4R 6.3R 1.8 4.4R 1.7 3.25
MagSafe 65 +P+ MAX 1841 4.76 2.4 8.9R 1.7 2.5 8.3R 3.53
CorBon 115 JHP +P 1243 8.98 12.2R 9.8R 14.1R 5.4 3.4 4.51
W-W 158gr LHP +P 996 10.76 8.8 9.1 12.9R 10.0R 13.0R 2.05
Fed 158gr LHP +P 982 10.80 12.5R 9.6 9.7R 14.1R 8.1 2.44
Fed 129 Hydra-Shok +P 951 10.84 13.3R 12.7R 11.6R 8.4 8.2 2.40
Rem 158gr LHP +P 924 10.86 9.5 13.6R 9.0 11.3R 10.9R 1.80
ECC 125gr Starfire 946 10.88 11.4R 9.1 8.7 13.4R 11.8R 1.96
Fed 125gr JHP +P 998 10.92 9.9 13.7R 11.8R 9.9R 9.3 1.82
W-W 110gr JHP +P 1136 11.02 14.4R 8.8 9.6 9.8 12.5R 2.35
CCI 125 JHP +P Lawman 947 11.36 10.9R 11.8R 13.4R 10.6 10.1 1.30
R-P 95gr JHP +P 1138 11.38 10.5 10.7R 9.8 11.9R 14.0R 1.65
W-W 110gr JHP +P 999 11.66 9.4 11.5 13.1R 12.0R 12.3R 1.39
W-W 125gr JHP +P 938 11.70 13.1R 13.6R 10.7 9.8 11.3 1.61
Rem 125gr JHP +P 935 11.74 8.9 10.3 14.6R 12.6R 12.3 2.20
Hornady 125gr XTP-HP 936 14.82 14.8R 18.9R 13.7 11.6 15.1R 2.66
Fed 158gr RNL (cont.) 708 33.68 27.7 36.2 24.1R 41.7R 38.7R 7.47

9mm Luger 4.25" Bbl.

MagSafe 68gr +P Police 1747 4.74 7.6R 1.8R 7.7R 2.3 4.3 2.82
Quik-Shok 115gr +P+ 1301 4.82 9.2R 3.2 2.0R 3.3 6.4R 2.94
Glaser 80gr Blue 1555 7.42 2.4 11.4R 9.5R 10.2R 3.6 4.11
Fed 115 JHP +P+ (BPLE) 1311 8.90 13.3R 13.0R 7.9 4.6 5.7 4.06
CorBon 115gr JHP +P 1333 8.92 10.9R 5.7 3.9 11.9R 12.2R 3.84
Fed 124 Hydra-Shok +P+ 1267 8.96 7.7R 13.1R 3.6 7.6R 12.8R 4.00
R-P 115gr JHP +P+ 1290 8.98 4.1 13.8R 9.2R 8.4R 9.4R 3.45
W-W 115gr JHP +P+ 1288 8.98 11.9R 3.5 11.5R 14.6R 3.4 5.19
ECC 115gr Starfire 1181 9.02 5.4 13.8R 4.1 13.2R 8.6R 4.41
Fed 124gr Hydra-Shok 1126 9.28 11.7R 4.4 11.9R 5.1 13.3R 4.19
Fed 124gr LHP Nyclad 1105 9.28 14.0R 9.9R 6.1 11.2R 5.2 3.64
Fed 115gr JHP 1175 9.30 4.8 8.6R 13.9R 5.4 13.8R 4.40
W-W 115gr SilverTip 1199 9.36 4.8 12.6R 13.4R 11.8R 4.2 4.48
R-P 115gr JHP 1166 9.36 11.0R 10.6R 11.0R 7.3 6.9 2.07
Fed 147gr Hydra-Shok 958 9.58 6.7 11.5R 5.3 12.0R 12.4R 3.32
Hornady 90gr XTP-HP 1286 9.62 14.2R 7.1 13.9R 6.4 6.5 4.05
CorBon 124gr XTP-HP +P 1258 9.66 6.9 13.7R 14.1R 7.9 5.7 3.95
W-W 147 Black Talon 962 9.68 12.3R 12.3R 6.6 6.4 10.8R 2.97
CCI 115gr JHP Lawman 1149 9.80 8.9 7.1 12.0R 9.9R 11.1R 1.91
Fed 147gr JHP 979 9.84 12.5R 11.3R 13.1R 6.1 6.2 3.43
CorBon 147gr XTP-HP +P 1093 9.86 9.0 9.6R 10.9R 7.1 12.7R 2.10
W-W 147gr JHP 890 9.90 14.1R 8.9R 5.2 9.7R 11.6R 3.30
Hornady 115 XTP-HP 1134 12.02 15.7R 13.3R 9.0 12.9R 9.2 2.87
W-W 115gr FMJ (cont.) 1163 14.40 9.7 16.6R 20.1R 15.6R 10.0 4.48

.380 ACP 3.625" Barrel

MagSafe 60 Defender +P 1338 7.12 9.1R 7.9R 8.7R 5.1 4.8 2.03
Glaser 70gr Blue 1313 7.94 6.6R 6.8 10.1R 8.8R 7.4 1.48
Fed 90gr Hydra-Shok 1008 10.94 10.4R 9.9 8.2 13.0R 13.7R 2.27
Fed 90gr JHP 1007 11.06 9.6 12.9R 11.7R 10.2 10.9R 1.29
CorBon 90gr +P 1041 11.12 8.8 13.3R 9.7R 12.8R 11.0 1.94
W-W 85gr SilverTip 980 12.88 11.9R 12.2R 13.8R 16.6R 9.9 2.50
CCI 88gr JHP Blaser 965 13.40 8.9 18.0R 13.5 9.8 16.8R 4.06
R-P 88gr JHP 996 13.46 14.5R 13.7 10.9R 14.6R 13.6 1.50
Hornady 90gr XTP-HP 984 15.58 12.7 17.1R 15.2 19.6R 13.3 2.83
Fed 95gr FMJ (cont.) 934 22.80 24.8R 20.7R 22.6 21.4 24.5R 1.82

Supposedly, 160-ish lb male French Alpine goats were shot in the lungs with various cartridges and loads. AIT = Average Incapacitation Time in seconds (in bold). Subsequent times are the individual test times. If followed by an 'R', it means a rib was encountered.

[DigMe]

Yes, we know all about it. We also know that the test is largely considered a fraud. Do a search here.

brad cook

[cratz2]

Yes, I know... I'm familiar with the testing... I just did a search and only found most of the entires to either be spelled incorrectly or limited to one cartridge. I also didn't find any references to the individual incapacitation times, just eh averages. I just added it here, in this format, for future searches.

I personally believe that some testing went on but the fact that the frangibles consistantly had the best times must give one pause. Assuming the testing did take place and was neutral in expectations, if there were 50 tests with each load and the results came out the same, I'd have more faith in them but with only five shots per load, the chances of the Mag-Safes almost always winning and the Glasers almost always coming in second seem pretty overwhelming. In at least one or two tests, one would think the wrong goat having a bad day would fall to the occasional JHP round more quickly than a stronger goat having a good day and perhaps a stronger desire to live would fall to a frangible.

:)

[buzz_knox]

Too bad frangibles have all too often failed when used against human targets as opposed to nonexistent animals.

[JohnBT]

cratz2 - Don't let 'em get your goat.

John

[buzz_knox]

I personally believe that some testing went on

What is the basis for this belief, given that there has been no evidence to support the existence of these tests except the results posted?

[DigMe]

Yes, I know... I'm familiar with the testing... I just did a search and only found most of the entires to either be spelled incorrectly or limited to one cartridge. I also didn't find any references to the individual incapacitation times, just eh averages. I just added it here, in this format, for future searches.


Oh ok, my bad. I thought you were posting them as breaking news or something. :D

brad cook

[BluesBear]

I personally believe that some testing went on

The Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy said the tests were real.

The Easter Bunny left me some MagSafe's in a plastic egg and the Tooth Fairy left me one Glaser Silver and one Glaser Blue when I lost a tooth once.

They both couldn't be wrong could they? Maybe I'd better ask Santa.






What really gets me is that, considering all of the manpower needed to wrangle all of those rare goats, not to mention all that were needed to drag off the carcasses, plus all the people needed to butcher them to recover the bullets, that NOBODY remembered to bring a camera?

There are people who claim to have blurry photos of Bigfoot or the Lockness Monster but no one has ever come forward and claimed to have any photos from "Stressberg".

Does that seem odd to anyone else?

[Hal]

cratz2 - Don't let 'em get your goat.

John We have a winner!!!
(great play on words)

[c_yeager]

Even assuming the tests WERE real (they werent) what does shooting goats have to do with shooting people? We arent all that similiar in construction. Yeah they SOMEHOW managed to find 600 goats all withing the average human weight. But there is mroe to it than weight. The arrangment of vital organs is such in a goat that a shot through the torso can hit dang near every one of them at once. People just arent built that way.

[cratz2]

OK... OK... It can be pick on me day! :D

I just posted it here because regardless of if the imformation is truthful or not or factual or not, some people will seek out that information. I was merely presenting it here in an easy to find manner for future seekers... that's it! No more and no less.

But on the topic of frangibles, I personally have a lot more faith in the Glasers than in the MagSafes. Never used the Quick Shoks at all. If used in a setting such as an apartment complex or in holder WWII-era homes, I think several rounds of Glasers from something like a 686 would be effective enough on a bad guy to at least slow him down or make him put his arms up in a defensive manner so you could easily place a couple rounds of full house 158 gr LSWCJHPs into him. :)

And on that note, I'm done! :p

[Justin]

Personally, when evaluating what load I should use in a defensive and/or concealed carry weapon, I think that the Strossberg Bum Tests were shown to mimic reality closest. After all, how many goats do you expect to defend yourself against?

[George Hill]

"Justin... that was Baaaaaaaad."
http://www.clanmacdonald.com/80/goatboy2.jpg

[Nick96]

As I recall, weren't these original Strasbourg tests done 10+ years ago? I suppose there is some value to shooting dumb goats who didn't know what was coming. But if I had to compare Strasbourg Results to the M&S statistics, I think I'd have to lean towards the M&S stats. At least "thinking" (and in some cases drug enhanced) animals were the test subjects there.

This whole subject of OSS's with handgun cartridges has gotten entirely too confusing for me. As far as I can determine (of the the most popular handgun cartridges) most any .357, .40 or .45 has an edge over .38's and 9MM's. Down scale somewhat are .32's & 380's. .22's & .25's may do in a pinch, but something larger would be better given a choice. This followed with a long & heavy stick, substantial knife, fist sized rock then bare knuckles and teeth.

I suppose the bottom line is the best round is the one you have loaded in the delivery vehicle available at the time it's needed.

cratz2 - please don't take any offence here. Thank you for taking the time & effort to compile these stats. The broad conclusion I get from reviewing this information is that bullets traveling at high velosity and bust up on impact are best. Unfortunatally, such rounds aren't in common usage for a variety of reasons. Then, hollow point bullets (mediun to large diameter) traveling at high speed are most effective. This is followed by large diameter solid bullets traveling at moderate speed. I think most tests completed on handgun cartridges pretty much ends up with these general results.

[Brigrat]

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not again!

[jfruser]

I don't know if Stasbourg tests ever occurred outside the realm of a fevered gun-writer's mind.

What I do know is that SOF medics have, on occasion, participated in highly realistic training OVERSEAS where some goat or ten were given some sort of wound like a medic would find on a buddy during battle. The medic would then attempt to stabilize the unlucky goat, using his training (the medic's, not the goat's). After the exercise, the goat was put out of his misery and rendered inedible or unattractive for eating by the locals.

Pretty good training for those medics who can't manage a tour through some of America's busiest trauma hospitals.

Now, goats being the preferred animal for such training might tell us something:
1. Goats have an exceptionally weak union, to allow them to work in such conditions
2. Goats are fairly common
3. Goats are close enough to human anatomy to make such an exercise worthwhile
4. Goats are cheap enough for the supply SGT or CWO to buy enough of them for the unit's medics to train on without having to leave behind documentation as to where/when/for what purpose the goats were purchased

Of course were any such thing to occur CONUS, one could expect the protests against the School of the Americas to be dwarfed in comparison.

Oh, one last thing about these (fictitious?) Strastbourg tests: if they were done 10+ years ago, I suspect their utility today, with today's munitions to be extremely limited.

OK, this really is the last thing...who was it that sprung the Strasbourg test on the gun-rag-reading public, way back in the day? Why hasn't that person been grilled as to his connection to the goatly fun & games?

[Balog]

1. Goats have an exceptionally weak union, to allow them to work in such conditions


I found this comment hilarious. G/J :D

[BluesBear]

no rd available today wasn't represented
Oh really?
What about:

CCI/Speer Gold Dots

Remington Golden Sabre

Winchester SXT

Federal EFMJ

Shall I go on?

Gunkid, it would seem that there have been quite a few new bullets developed since that ficticious goat fiasco.

[stans]

No proof these tests actually occurred. Of course, there is no proof that UFO's do or do not exsist.

[JohnBT]

Magsafe believes in the goat tests !!!! Straight from their site:


"MAGSAFE SWEPT THE STRASBOURG TESTS

The now -famous Strasbourg Tests put MagSafe on the map. To Summarize what nearly everyone already knows, over 600 live French Alpine goats (their bodies are very much like humans) were shot under controlled conditions: no anesthetic, same shot placement form animal to animal, and with blood pressure and heart rate monitors to determine the Incapacitation Time (measure of how long it took a goat to cease functioning after the single shot was delivered).

MagSafe Ammo worked - better than anything else. Tests were done without MagSafe's knowledge, so some versions tested were the lowest powered. For example, two types of .380 ACP are offered; the .380 Defender, a 60-grainer at 1,360 fps in a Colt Mustang; and the .380 MAX (designed for a big city's undercover drug agents) with a 52-grain slug sizzling along at 1,620 fps in the Mustang.

The Defender has 247 ft-lbs of energy, while the MAX load has 303 ft-lbs. The Defender's lower velocity hampered stopping power, resulting in a Average Incapacitation Time (AIT) of 7.12 seconds. That's the average time for five different goats, each shot once with the MagSafe 60-grain Defender.

However - and this is where things get interesting - there wasn't a jacketed hollowpoint bullet in ANY caliber which dropped the goats faster than MagSafe's weakest .380 load!"

[DigMe]

But if I had to compare Strasbourg Results to the M&S statistics, I think I'd have to lean towards the M&S stats.

I believe both are equally flawed.

brad cook

[Shawn Dodson]

There's no credible evidence I'm aware of to show these tests were ever performed.

But, for the sake of argument, let's assume they did. The test method represents extreme best case conditions -- a clear, unobstructed shot to the upper torso.

Now if we were to complicate things just a little bit by putting an arm in the way (or something to simulate an arm, such as a 4-5 inch thick block of ordnance gelatin) to obstruct the bullet's path to the torso, the limitations of many top rated loads will be quickly realized, which will produce a substantial decrease in performance (as Nick96 alluded to in his post).

[George Hill]

Hoax meant to sell Ammunition and Gun Magazines.

The key factor in any scientific testing testing is that the tests are reproducable and would yeild the same results as given.
This is not the case with these tests. If they were credible every SWAT team out there would be packing Glazers and Magsafes. Again, this is not the case.

[stans]

By the way, no goats were harmed in this post.:D

[JohnBT]

Maybe the goats just fainted...

www.faintinggoat.com

International Fainting Goat Association. Really. Saw this in a post quoting Mr. Fackler IIRC.


John

[PCRCCW]

*****IMPORTANT NOTE*********** No goats, actual, fictional or otherwise were harmed or killed during the making of this thread..

We now return you to your regularly scheduled "What am I doing here?" thread................:D

Shoot well

[Mike Irwin]

"No goats were harmed..."

Don't know why you guys are being such weenies about it, but I'm a member of a cooking forum, and one of the discussion topics right now is how to prepare goat...

[BluesBear]

Were any of the goats wearing the standard four layers of denim?

[MrAcheson]

Were any of the goats wearing the standard four layers of denim?

No they were wearing wool instead. :D

[BluesBear]

No they were wearing wool instead.
:D When a sheep gets wet why doesn't it shrink? :D

[stans]

Don't know why you guys are being such weenies about it, but I'm a member of a cooking forum, and one of the discussion topics right now is how to prepare goat...

Well, I am a member of PETA.

people Eating Tasty Animals!

[BluesBear]

:what: Lamb Fries? :what:

[Gordon]

The only REAL goat tests get done on my goat ranch. A new round coming up! I have been know to dress big stinking billies (posthumously) in denim! I assure you that in .45acp Winchester Ranger Talon (or old Black Talon) does the deed in a superior manner. :D

[Mike Irwin]

"I have been know to dress big stinking billies (posthumously) in denim!"

Uhm....

I'm not one to really judge people based on the kind of fun they want to have, but I think there are laws against that sort of thing... :D

[PCRCCW]

"I have been know to dress big stinking billies (posthumously) in denim!"

Im with Mike Irwin on this one..........:scrutiny: Demin is one thing.....Please dont mention high heels or a garter........Please :neener:

Shoot well.

[Gordon]

Didn't you hear all those laws were declared unconstitutional last year and legal yesterday in the uncleanwealth of Mass.!:evil:

[PCRCCW]

" No goats, actual, fictional or otherwise were harmed or killed during the making of this thread.."

Weenies..............hmmm.

I was actually just making a Joke about the test being a thing of fiction? I thought you guys would get it........................:scrutiny:

Shoot well................

[Ultima-Ratio]

For the still curious, there's some decent reading over at The American Backyard in the Gun Zone if ya search up MagSafe there.
I think that rec.guns has the goat tests in their library also.

[Boats]

I think I'll go with 45ACP dropping cattle for real US Army tests over the fictional shooting of fictional French goats.

Between the magic of Genie and the Witchcraft of Samantha, I'd have to come down on the side of Genie.:rolleyes:

Hey! Someone might just do a search someday for The Arming of America by Michael Bellesiles. Why not have cratz repost it here in an easy to read format as if the information were true or even important to aid in the quest for "genuwhine" knowledge?:D

[Ultima-Ratio]

I was over at The Firing Line on the same search (MagSafe) and stumbled on the thread with Dean, Shawn and Plus P:D
Some of the best stuff I've read in ages IMO! Real gun guys with opinions, I luv that!
One of these days I'll try some of that scientific ballistic jello stuff, all we have here is the unscientific spoilt meat to shoot (salmon/bear etc) and the occasional porcupine to test bullets in.

[tulsamal]

Mike Irwin wrote:

Don't know why you guys are being such weenies about it, but I'm a member of a cooking forum, and one of the discussion topics right now is how to prepare goat...

Hey, point me to that forum and thread! I raise Boer goats here in OK and I'm always looking for some new way to prepare it. I have to shoot one myself every now and then but I cheat! I don't want to waste meat so I get them to look at me and then put a .44 Special right in the forehead. Works every time!

Gregg

[Chris Pinkleton]

I prefer my goat slow cooked (in a crock- pot or in a roaster with a tight lid in the oven) with curry spices.

My only "goat testing" just proved that if you've never shot at a living creature in your life, trying to pick out a specific goat with a brain shot out of a big herd is not the way to start.

Back on topic..."extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." I'll leave it at that.

[Bart Noir]

The Boers gave the British Commonwealth troops a lot of grief, and in the second war introduced the Brits to the wrong end of machine guns for the first time. Whereupon the Brits invented disease-filled concentration camps for women and children.

Maybe you should raise hogs. There isn't the historical baggage and the smell of bacon in the morning will keep em in line. "Cept those ones from Orwell's book.

Bart Noir

[GEM]

This will make a goat faint and stop them quicker than a 45 ACP.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002050329,00.html

[Bart Noir]

GEM, how long have you been waiting for a chance to use that in this forum? Any forum?

And as for this bit of understatement, I just can't add anything.
"British Transport Police Detective Inspector Dave Crinnion, who investigated, said: "I saw the goat the next day — it did not seem too upset but it is difficult to tell."

Are the Brits that keen on chasing down and subdueing those who commit sex assaults on people? Of course, we don't know if the goat was consenting...

Bart Noir

[tulsamal]

Chris wrote:

My only "goat testing" just proved that if you've never shot at a living creature in your life, trying to pick out a specific goat with a brain shot out of a big herd is not the way to start.

Is this the famous High Road in action? Are you insulting me or what?!?!

I'm 42. Ex-Army. I live on 90 acres SW of Vinita, OK. I currently have about 45 Boer goats along with a bunch of other animals. We've had livestock for quite a few years. You are welcome to come out and check for yourself if you like. I get one or more deer every year. I don't know you from Adam but there is a strong likelihood that I've killed more large mammals in my life than you have.

I never said I just shot one out of the herd. I said, "sometimes I HAVE to shoot one." So that would be one that was hurt or sick and had to be killed. Or one that we decided to keep and eat ourselves. In any of those cases, the animal would be isolated. If it was sick or hurt it would probably be down in the hole I dug for it before I even shot it. I don't like carrying them 100 yards once they are dead. I drop them in the hole. They are sick so they don't jump back out. I tell them I'm sorry and then I put a .44 caliber bullet into their forehead. And they die. And I cover them up.

Any more questions?

Gregg

[BluesBear]

GEM,

That reminds me of the old Joke about the Scottish Farmer, his goat, the nosey woman next door and the Constable.

"Aye... a goat'll do that! :evil:

[Bill Z]

Never mind, I shouldn't have posted what I was going to.

[Nightcrawler]

I seriously doubt these tests happened.

And if it did...look, I'm an animal lover, but I'm not a weenie about it. I like cats, dogs, horses, you name it, but I've got no problem with hunting, so long as the kill is done in a clean and humane manner.

To top it off, I'm not very fond of goats. I've been around them long enough, and they never got on my good side (they're a lot smarter than they seem, though).

That all said, does anyone else think it'd be cruel and wasteful to shoot over a hundred animals just to see how long it'd take them to die? I mean GEEZ.

[BluesBear]

No need to worry Nightcrawler.

The tests didn't happen.

[DigMe]

That all said, does anyone else think it'd be cruel and wasteful to shoot over a hundred animals just to see how long it'd take them to die? I mean GEEZ.

YEah! What a waste! They should have at least tested some cosmetics on them before they shot them. :neener:

brad cook

[Sven]

This is being closed for having a VERY low signal to noise ratio.