[Lost Sheep]

Consider the cost of getting into handloading by comparing the cost of retail boxes of ammo to the cost of that same amount of ammunition bought as components and including the cost of the reloading gear.

For comparison purposes, I will stipulate that a typical box of (50 count) handgun ammunition costs about the same as a typical box of (20 count) rifle ammunition.


If you take enough money to buy 12 boxes of ammunition and apply it to the purchase of;

A) 2 boxes of store-bought ammunition (so you have the brass which you will re-use) and apply the remaining money to the purchase of

B) A decent press, dies, scale, a few extra small implements necessary to the activity

C) enough powder, primers and bullets to make 10 more boxes of ammunition, (500 handgun or 200 rifle)

you will have spent the same amount of money for the same amount of shooting (12 boxes worth - 600 handgun or 240 rifle) and you may well have some powder left over.

After that, all your ammunition is a fraction of the cost of store-bought (excluding your time, of course, but for some cartridges, you can amortize your time, too and still be saving money; depending on if you count your time as worth $20 per hour or $100, of course. The bonuses of satisfaction, better quality ammo and the independence from retailers are not even addressed here).

This rough estimate applies equally well to bottlenecked rifle cartridges as to handgun cartridges.

The exact figures will depend on local prices, but I expect counting by boxes will be more universal than counting by currency, even in different countries.


Anyone care to comment on or refine my (very rough) calculations?

Lost Sheep

[lyrikz]

my thoughts are this. You have to have time on your hands. Because it takes a bit to load ammo. I love doing it because i love building stuff.. And for some reason people cant believe someone makes their own ammo. At least around here. ahaha

[nojoke]

I'd like to see a cost analysis of a box of ammo from walmart vs a box of ammo out of my press.

I guess I could do it myself....how many rounds can I get out of a plastic jug of power pistol...loading at 6.8 grains per?

[rcmodel]

There are 7,000 grains in a pound.

SO, 1,029.4 rounds if you don't spill any on the floor.

rc

[Lost Sheep]

I'd like to see a cost analysis of a box of ammo from walmart vs a box of ammo out of my press.

I guess I could do it myself....how many rounds can I get out of a plastic jug of power pistol...loading at 6.8 grains per?
That is the easiest: One thousand (and if there is no spillage, 200 grains of powder still in the jug)

Lost Sheep

[RustyFN]

I'd like to see a cost analysis of a box of ammo from walmart vs a box of ammo out of my press.

The only problem is if you are talking about WWB value pack you aren't going to get the same quality. After shooting reloads the WWB ammo shoots like garbage.

I guess I could do it myself....how many rounds can I get out of a plastic jug of power pistol...loading at 6.8 grains per?

There are 7,000 grains in one pound. Divide that by your 6.8 grain charge and you can load around 1,029.

[beatledog7]

I don't keep careful track of costs because, like lyrikz, I simply enjoy reloading. I would do it even if I saved nothing at all.

[rsrocket1]

Excellent calculators for handgun, rifle and shotgun (http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/index.htm) including # times you use the cases and press cost.

Before I got into reloading, my annual cost for ammo was under a hundred $, now its ten times that much. But the smile on my face is much bigger :)

[AABEN]

Go to www.handloads.com this is the best one I have found. Go to handload cost calculator Good Luck

[gamestalker]

I occasionally take notice of the economics of reloading from time to time. But in all honesty, I started reloading much for the same reasons I continue reloading, to shoot the very best ammunition obtainable.

I have never had a mis-fire in the more than 30 years of reloading, nor have I ever had a cartridge perform unusual or abnormally. I can't say the same for factory ammunition.

[BBDartCA]

Ignoring one time fixed costs, typical scenarios on 30-06 below

30-06
Cost, Stock, Landed with Tax Stock Units $/unit $ per Round
Powder $21.90 7000 $0.00 $0.16
Primers $2.90 100 $0.03 $0.03
Bullets $74.00 500 $0.15 $0.15
Brass losses $0.35 0.007 $0.01 $0.01
Total Cost/round $0.34

Quality Commercial

Qty Cost Shipping Total Cost Cost/round
20 35 0 35 $1.75

Savings/round $1.41

[RustyFN]

When you start reloading you start to scrounge brass at the range. Next thing you know you have a five gallon bucket full of 9mm brass, another full of 223 brass and another full of 45 auto brass. Then you are buying new guns because you have brass with no gun in that caliber yet. Don't ask me how I know this. It's tough but somebody has to do it. :D

[Trent]

There are 7,000 grains in a pound.

SO, 1,029.4 rounds if you don't spill any on the floor.

rc

What... what is this.. SACRILEGE! You can't spill the boomstick juice on the floor!?!!

:)

J/k.

[GaryL]

When you start reloading you start to scrounge brass at the range. Next thing you know you have a five gallon bucket full of 9mm brass, another full of 223 brass and another full of 45 auto brass. Then you are buying new guns because you have brass with no gun in that caliber yet. Don't ask me how I know this. It's tough but somebody has to do it. I think that is called making efficient use of the available resources. Otherwise I have no idea what you speak of. :p

[grubbylabs]

It costs me $2.51 Per box of 50 for my 45 auto and my 44 mag plinkers. I get my lead for free and I only use 6 grains of Unique in both rounds.

On my 44 mag and my 45/70 it costs a little more because of the powder and gas check.

My rifle loads are like most people since I buy a premium bullet for them.

[SourMash]

I haven't saved a single dime! :)

[J_McLeod]

Then you are buying new guns because you have brass with no gun in that caliber yet. Don't ask me how I know this. It's tough but somebody has to do it.


That happened to me already and I've been reloading for less than a year. I had all this .40 brass, and I could the 9mm mags in the 40 and vice versa, and the shell plates were the same, and I had all this .40 brass lying around. Now I have two XDs.

I pay half as much per box and haven't saved a dime.

[voicomp]

I am not sure I save much money reloading but that is just because I can now shoot several times as many rounds per trip to the range :)

In .44 Special, "Cowboy Action" strength loads were varying wildly from $35 to over $50 per 50 around here. I plugged the info on my parts costs (Primer, powder and slugs) into the Calculator on the Lee Loader disc and it says I am now out $8.57 for the same thing when I DIY. Powder costs are low enough that I could jack things up to some pretty humming velocities for a fairly trivial additional cost but I don't feel like spending the time cleaning out the lead fouling that would result.

If I am feeling upscale and snooty (or want to "practice" as opposed to "plink"), I can also turn out something like a .44 Spl 180 gr JHP premium self defense load at about 3 rounds for a dollar.

... FWIW, I did start a bit ahead in the costs game because I had been saving brass for quite a while before I got a press

[Trent]

I couldn't afford to shoot some of my guns if I didn't reload. Premium 300 Win Mag costs as much as $3.40 a SHOT. I load it for about 60 cents (with the bulk of that going to the bulletsmiths). Heck, 308 is going for a buck a shot! I still have thousands of lake city 168 gr pulls for plinking that I picked up for .05 a piece back in '99.

[1SOW]

If you are a robot. You can reload 9mm pistol rds that perform MUCH better than typical commercial rds for about half the cost. Depending on how much a robot shoots, your 'good quality' reloading gear costs can usually break even within a year.

On the other hand, I've never met a robot shooter. What happens is you will shot 3 or 4 or 5 times as much, and spend way more money than you previously did. With the higher rnd count, your payback for reloading equipment costs will be MUCH faster than a year :uhoh:.:D

That's what you tell your significant other. "I'm shooting twice a week, so I can get my reloading investment money back sooner". :evil:

Brass is the most expensive component for handgun reloading. Free range brass is critical to saving money by reloading.

[Krogen]

From my calculations, it's pretty simple. Neglecting the equipment cost, my typical handloads are 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of equivalent factory ammo. For uncommon rifle cartridges, it's about 1/4. That's not because the components are greatly more expensive, but because oddball factory ammo is insanely expensive.

[.338-06]

The savings go way up when loading, say, .458 Win Mag. Last time I looked it was $120/20 rounds :what: That said I've gotten to the point where I'm loading .45 and 9mm for the price of powder and primers, roughly $.05 a round. Yes, I cast as well.


Then you are buying new guns because you have brass with no gun in that caliber yet. Don't ask me how I know this. It's tough but somebody has to do it.

I thought I was the only sicko who did this :evil:

[rkammer]

Well, respectfully, I can't get the OPs numbers to come close to being able to get into reloading for the cost of 12 boxes of ammo.

A close friend of mine is considering getting into reloading and we, just this past weekend, ran some numbers on what it would cost him to begin reloading. Just for the cost of a decent single stage press, dies, powder, primers, powder measure, scale, bullet trays, tumbler, media, calipers, and misc. small pieces, it would cost over $400 (Rock Chucker press and goodies out of the Midway catalog).

If you take the cost of 9mm ammo at Walmart here in Central Florida at about $12 a box tax included, that comes to only $144 vs the $400 to get into reloading. If we used the cost of 45 ACP ammo at $20 a box that's still only $240.

We figured the write off of the cost of the reloading equip. is how much is saved on a box of ammo in order to justify the $400 cost of the reloading equip. My approx. cost of a box of my reloads in 45 ACP is about $6.00 vs $20 a box at WalMart. ( I don't cast my own lead bullets) So, if I save $14 a box, it would take about 28 boxes of reloaded ammo to pay myself back for the reloading equip. That's better than double the 12 boxes from the OP. (Coincidentally, the first pound of powder bought would just about do 28 boxes of 45 ACP ammo for me using 4.5 grains of powder per load)

All that said, my problem with the OP is the actual cost of getting into reloading with all the necessary equipment. How do these numbers play out with others? :D

[cfullgraf]

We figured the write off of the cost of the reloading equip. is how much is saved on a box of ammo in order to justify the $400 cost of the reloading equip. My approx. cost of a box of my reloads in 45 ACP is about $6.00 vs $20 a box at WalMart. ( I don't cast my own lead bullets) So, if I save $14 a box, it would take about 28 boxes of reloaded ammo to pay myself back for the reloading equip. That's better than double the 12 boxes from the OP. (Coincidentally, the first pound of powder bought would just about do 28 boxes of 45 ACP ammo for me using 4.5 grains of powder per load)

:D

That is a reasonable analysis.

Time seems to be the main item that folks get hung up on with reloading costs. It all depends on how you value your time.

Truth be told, if you put a monetary value on your time, buying commercial ammuntion would be cheaper. But...

in my case, reloading is a recreational activity. I do it at my discretion. Therefore, the time is of no value. No different than vegitating in front of the boob tube watching a "foolsball" game. i am just doing something else.

Payback time on your reloading equipment is reasonable to calculate. Maybe if more did that, they would make a better decision on what type of reloading equipment to buy. But again, it is a recreational activity. I really do not shoot enough to justify progressive equipment but I wanted a new toy to play with and see if progressives lived up to all the internet hype.

30 years ago, i calculated my cost of a box of reloads. It was cheaper than factory ammunition. Reloads are still cheaper than factory. I have lots of other reasons for continuing reloading, not the least of which is that I always have ammunition on hand that I like to shoot and do not worry that Wallyworld has restocked their shelves. Being able to enjoy firearms that shoot obsolete cartridges is another. The list goes on.

I have quit obsessing over the cost or savings of reloading.

[capreppy]

I initially got into reloading to save money. As others have pointed out, I just shoot more. However, the ammo I am shooting is much more accurate and is tuned to my pistol / rifle.

I have thousands of rounds of .45 ACP & 9mm Luger on the shelves and don't have to worry about running out. My costs per hundred is about $8.50 for both pistol calibers (shoot exclusively lead, but may move to plated for the 9mm).

I recently got an AR in .223 Remington. I enjoy chasing accuracy out of my gas gun. I enjoy seeing a small hole after sending 10 rounds down range. I can't do that with commercial ammo (well at least not any of the cheap stuff).

I've been back to the shooting game for 12 months. In that time I have a acquired 2 pistols (.45 ACP & 9mm Luger) and 2 rifles (.270 Win & AR in .223 Remington). I reload for these calibers and am actually also set up to reload for 40 S&W, .357 Mag/.38 Special, .44 Mag/.44 Special, & .308 Win/7.62 NATO.

It has become a relaxtional exercise for me. My wife has realized this and actually allows me to reload in front of the TV. I am multi-tasking, but we are together and she knows that I am pretty relaxed at the end of it.

I have already recovered the cost of my reloading equipment. Most of my it was from .45 ACP rounds alone.

I've picked up some of my gear on the cheap just scouring the FS forums. My buddy and I were able to pick up a .223 Rem and .308 Win Redding National Match die set for $170 total (MidwayUSA pricing for these is $149 a set). You don't need to spend a lot of money if you can spend some time looking for bargains. They are definitely out there.

[EMC45]

Reloaded ammo is better than you can buy. It can be tailored to a particular firearm with regard to action type, barrel length, intend purpose etc. I cast all my own bullets. A buddy once did a calculation for me and I found out that I was loading 50 rounds of 230gr. .45ACP for about $2.50 a box. .38 special was right at or a little under $2. NO factory ammo can be bought for anything close to that! I also have a lot of second hand gear so that soaks up a lot of price as well. I have given away reloading gear for crying out loud!! (Dies, Uniflow Powder measure, Lee Challenger press, case lube, primer trays etc. etc.) It can be had for a lot cheaper than going through the latest Midway or other distro's catalog to get started.

[rsrocket1]

rkammer

Reloading to save money is very dependent on what you buy and what you reload. 9mm, .223, 7.62x39, 7.54x54R are fairly poor candidates for money savings because cheap comblock ammo can often be had for less. On top of that, if you get a high quality reloading setup such as the Rock Chucker kit, you will also take a long time before you break even. If you look at the Lee Breechlock Challenger Kit or the Anniversary Kit, you'll see that you can get into reloading with all the needed equipment for about half of the $400 you estimated for the RC kit.

If time and convenience can be traded for money savings, you'll also see that you don't need to pay retail prices for loading blocks, tumblers, media, lube, etc. Just search this and other websites for home brew methods of cleaning cases (all you really have to do is wipe off any dirt that will scratch the dies/chamber). Heck, I even went between Midway orders by making a powder funnel out of a piece of paper and Scotch Tape. I saw someone make a loading block out of a USPS cardboard box.

The important items are:
-A scale that can accurately read down to a tenth of a grain. The Lee Kits have those and you can certainly use that for a lifetime although there are more convenient ones at a higher cost.
-A set of calipers ($10-$15 at Harbor Freight for digital calipers that measure down to 0.001")
-A reloading manual or two (or three or ten). Or the Internet and *very* good discernment <- this can be dangerous if you can't consult someone experienced.

[JohnM]

The whole game of working out actual costs for reloading ammo is just an exercise in math.
On some calibers I save a lot, on others not as much.
Plus as a general rule you can get better stuff than off the shelf factory loads.

Trying to figure out equipment payback is just another exercise.
The tools and equipment we use are things we buy and add into our collection for the reloading bench as the years go on.

I don't shoot anything that uses that cheap stuff around like some of the 5.56 available.
Friends of mine who do say, yeah, it just ain't worth the time and bother to reload it.

[W.E.G.]

Don't do it unless you want to reload as a hobby.

Even if you place no value on your time, you probably won't save money.
You'll just get to shoot more.

Eventually, you will have buckets of brass, and boxes of bullets, and many, many cans of your reloads.
Just in time to move.
Hey honey, there can't be more than 10,000 rounds of ammo there... errr, I mean 10,000 rounds of .22 rimfire. And then there's all the reloading stuff.
She'll think you're a prince.

Think about it this way:
You could be restoring a sailboat.

[Trent]

Oh God, WEG, I remember the trips hauling components when we bought our house 3 years ago. That REALLY sucked.

[rkammer]

rkammer

On top of that, if you get a high quality reloading setup such as the Rock Chucker kit, you will also take a long time before you break even. If you look at the Lee Breechlock Challenger Kit or the Anniversary Kit, you'll see that you can get into reloading with all the needed equipment for about half of the $400 you estimated for the RC kit.


OK, if the Lee Challenger Kit is $120 including shipping the additional cost of the other items will be upwards of another $150 if one is to be properly equipped. So, if the total cost is even only $300 it would still take over 21 boxes of ammo to break even (using my ammo cost).

While I wasn't using deep discounts or used equipment in my analysis my point was that the 12 box break-even point wasn't realistic. I do agree with you that equipment can be gotten cheaper, though. :)

[Trent]

If you're only going to load 12 boxes of {whatever}, why bother reloading at all. :)

If you buy new brass for something, your initial costs will usually be HIGHER than factory ammo. (Factories which make and sell bulk brass do this for a reason, I'm sure...)

But subsequent loadings will bring your cost average WAY down and you are in control of the treatment of the brass from day one.

[RandyP]

Factory Sales sells the Lee Anniv single stage kit for $82. Add dies ($30) and components.

Kempf's sells the versatile auto-advancing Lee Classic turret kit for about $200 which includes one set of dies - you need to buy a scale and calipers.

Single stage is 50-75 rounds per hour, I get 150-175 RPH on my turret.

For pistol shooting I would encourage investing in the CLASSIC turret due to the higher round output. It can also be used just like a single stage while one learns if desired. It will also load most all rifle calibers.

[Hondo 60]

I have a reloading calculator, but this site won't allow me to upload it.
It's an excel spreadsheet.
(of course you need to have Micro$oft Excel installed in order to open it.)

If anyone wants a copy, just pm me with your email address & tell me you want a copy.

It doesn't take into account the initial investment, but is GREAT for figuring out what you save vs factory ammo AFTER that initial investment.

I didn't write it, & I forget who did, otherwise I would give credit where credit is due..

[thump_rrr]

I'll use my .308 setup as an example.

I live in Canada but buy my reloading equipment in the USA since it is legal for me to do so.

Lee Anniversary Kit. $82.00
Lee Deluxe 3-Die Set 308 $30.00
Lee .308 Factory Crimp Die $16.00
Lymann 1500XP Scale $150.00
Dillon .308 Case Gauge $36.00
Lee .308 Trim Stud $5.00
(2) MTM Universal Loading Trays $16.00
RCBS Primer Pocket Uniformer $27.00
RCBS Flash Hole Deburring Tool $15.00
RCBS Case Mouth Deburring Tool $23.00

It is not legal for me to purchase ammunition or components directly from the USA so I purchase them locally.

168gr Sierra Matchkings .308 $40.00/100 $0.40/each $8.00/box
Varget $29.00/LB $0.166/each $3.314/box
CCI Benchrest-2 Primers $52.00/1000 $0.052/each $1.04/box
Lapua .308 Win Brass $77.00/100 $0.077/each Amortized over 10 firings $1.54/box (amortized over 10 firings)

Total Cost Of Match Grade Reloads Per Box $13.894 including brass amortized over 10 firings.

Federal Gold Medal Match $39.99/box

Savings $26.096 per box

In the last 2 months I have owned my rifle I've shot 400 rounds through it which is more than enough to pay for my single stage reloading setup.

On a side note I'm shooting 5 shot groups in the .5-.6 moa range on average.

Here are the links for a couple of good calculators
Rifle Reloading Cost Calculator (http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/Rifle_Reloading_Cost_Calculator.htm)
Handgun Reloading Cost Calculator (http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/Handgun_Reloading_Cost_Calculator.htm)

[nojoke]

There are 7,000 grains in a pound.

SO, 1,029.4 rounds if you don't spill any on the floor.

rc
Ok,
Just purchased bullets and brass (500 pieces each) at about $125.
PP is $16/pound
About $ .03 per primer.
That comes up to about $ 0.29 per round or $29 per "box" for .38 special.


Just googled a price for walmart: 100 count for $33.97

So, not only the enjoyment of preparing my own stuff, the control....but the cost savings as well. It's a win, win - win.

[jcwit]

Primers purchased years ago=====$10.00 a 1,000===== 1 cent each
Surplus powder===============$ 8.00 a lb.========1/2 cent per round
Cast lead bullet from free lead====================$.00 per round

Cost per 100 handgun rounds approx. $1.50

Heck my .22 rimfire cost is now $14.00 a hundred or more.

[RandyP]

For that .38 Special ammo reloading, now that you have the brass which should last about forever, all you will be buying is powder, bullets and primers for the relaods. THat will dramatically reduce your cost per round.

[evan price]

If you are reloading calibers that are relatively cheap to buy new (9mm, .380, even 45 auto) there's not as much benefit for cost savings.

If you like to shoot expensive calibers (44 mag or special, 357 mag, 45 colt/454 casull, etc) you will quickly see significant savings.

For example 44 Magnum Winchester White Box 240-JSP ammo is running $44/50 rounds at the local gun store. If I use my range-scrounged cases, Nosler 240-gr JSP bullets, Win LP primers and 10 grains of Titegroup I get a better result than WWB and my cost is roughly 25 cents per shot, $12.50 per box.

If I use my cowboy loads with my own cast lead 240-SWC bullets and 8.0 grains of Promo with Wolf primers I am cutting my price down to 4 cents a shot, $2.00 a box. Saving over $40 per box means in less than 500 rounds you've paid for your reloading setup.

Even 9mm can show savings. $10/50 is a good price for WWB nowadays. I can use purchased cast lead slugs and load a box for $5. Half price!

[Krogen]

So how about this: Consider the cost of your reloading equipment as a one-time, non-recurring cost. Just like another firearm. Then forget about it. It's spent. After that, you can enjoy the savings on handloaded ammo; your recurring cost.

I think we shooters tend to be frugal people, often to the point of analysis-paralysis. Sometimes you just gotta just jump.

[nojoke]

Randy,
I wanted to try out using some fresh brass. My estimate is real cost - buying all components. ....and it's still cheaper than factory!

I did buy "on sale" bullets and "on sale" brass....so it wasn't the best of the best. I bet it would come close to breaking even, if you did load with the very best of everything.

In short, yes I could do this even more cheaply. :cool:

[GLOOB]

I save hardly anything reloading for my .223. It's just a horrible compulsion. Bullets run me about $2.20-3.50 per 20. Powder is about $0.70 per 20. Primers are about $0.50 per twenty. I could buy cheap .223 ammo for 5 dollars a box. To make matters worse, it takes me at least 3 - edit: no, probably 5-6) times as long to reload rifle rounds due to the brass preparation.

My pistol calibers are where the money's at. You could justify a reloading press just for .357/38. In fact, I have to shoot a bunch of it just to recover the costs I incurred for my rifle gear and the obscure calibers I bought dies and components for, but never manage to get enough brass to reload. :)

[GLOOB]

Heck, I even went between Midway orders by making a powder funnel out of a piece of paper and Scotch Tape. I saw someone make a loading block out of a USPS cardboard box.
You can make a really nice funnel out a thin sheet of brass or copper. Solder the body of a chamfered 22LR case to it, and it'll fit any caliber, even .223. I BOUGHT an expensive funnel specifically made for .223, and I scrapped it for this one.

As for loading blocks, an old 9mm plastic ammo tray fits .223 perfectly. I believe a .45 tray would hold .308 or .30-06. For pistol ammo, what would ya need a tray for? The cases stand up on their own.

[FROGO207]

This exact thing is hashed over every so often and it is always ends about the same. If you want to shoot cheap Commi Block ammo and value your TV or partying time then don't bother. If you want to say you did it yourself, want "better" ammo, or relief from supply shortages then do reload. IMHO you will never be sorry that you learn how to reload, I feel this is a skill that any firearms owner should at least learn how to do.

[cfullgraf]

My estimate is real cost - buying all components. ....and it's still cheaper than factory!



The major component of savings for reloading comes from reusing the cases.

If you use the case just once, there may not be any savings at all.

[MrWesson]

50 rounds of store bought 9mm FMJ ~$10

50 rounds of my handloads = $1.90 per 50/3.80 per 100/$38 per 1000.

I use bullets casted by yours truly from wheelweights, range brass,4.0gr bullseye powder and winchester SPP.

[medalguy]

You know the old saying: Give a man a box of ammo, he'll shoot it all up. Teach a man to reload, he'll spend every extra cent he has for the rest of his life.

Seriously, I was making fun of my wife the other day about her shopping at Coldwater Creek when she was telling one of her friends how much she saved there. She turned to me and said "Yeah, just like you save money by reloading." Boy does she have MY number!!

[Hondo 60]

I spend just as much (if not a bit more) on reloading handgun ammo vs factory ammo.
BUT - I can shoot 3 or 4 times more ammo.
-----------------------------------------------
I bought some Federal American Eagle .223 ammo cuz it was cheap - about $6.00/box.
It was more like pray & spray.
It's been awhile since I bought factory ammo.
It'll be a heck of a lot longer before I buy anymore.

With my reloads, at 100 yds, I can usually keep a whole box within an inch-inch & a half.

With Federal, I was doing well to keep it on the paper.
It was horrible!!!!!

[Lunie]

Free range brass is critical to saving money by reloading.

I've heard of this "Free range brass". I've never seen any though. They must sell it one of those stores that carries Vegetarian powder and the 100% Natural* primers. :rolleyes:

[amlevin]

I've heard of this "Free range brass". I've never seen any though.

At our range there are always "volunteers" that will sweep up for you on the Pistol Range. On the Rifle Ranges they merely mine the brass box.

You just need to learn the technique and you too will be getting some of that free range brass.

[zxcvbob]

If I ever have to move again, I'm screwed. Maybe my truck will hold all the lead and the bullets, but I dunno. It's [the truck] just a half ton...

Free brass has pretty much dried up here. Tweekers come out and scavenge all of it -- even .22's -- to sell as scrap metal. (they must come at the crack of dawn) But I mostly shoot revolvers, so that's not a big problem. Someday I'm gonna have to get a .40 tho' to use up the brass I've picked up over the years. Maybe a nice S&W 610 :drool:

[Lunie]

At our range there are always "volunteers" that will sweep up for you on the Pistol Range. On the Rifle Ranges they merely mine the brass box.

You just need to learn the technique and you too will be getting some of that free range brass.
It's alright, I love free "range brass". I'm one of those willing volunteers who will ask to clean up after others, and mine the brass buckets for treasure.

I was just joking about what "free range" brass might be. :P

[dihnen]

As far as saving money goes, as long as my wife THINKS I'm saving money she'll let me go to the range as often as I want. That to me is the true benefit of reloading :cool:

[mokin]

Cost/saving analysis of reloading threads are funny.

I like reading how other people justify what they do and how they do it. I got into reloading to save money on ammunition. Not really working out for me. I just shoot more. But I find it fun and it keeps me out of trouble so I guess it's worth it.

[Lost Sheep]

OK, if the Lee Challenger Kit is $120 including shipping the additional cost of the other items will be upwards of another $150 if one is to be properly equipped. So, if the total cost is even only $300 it would still take over 21 boxes of ammo to break even (using my ammo cost).

While I wasn't using deep discounts or used equipment in my analysis my point was that the 12 box break-even point wasn't realistic. I do agree with you that equipment can be gotten cheaper, though. :)
Thanks for your thoughts, Rkammer. Even though you disagree with my conclusion, I believe we are in very close agreement, given the differences in our starting points.

I ran my calculations with the bench minimally furnished, with only the accoutrements absolutely necessary, leaving out such accessories as tumbler, trimmer, high-end scale, and cutting every reasonable cost corner easily cut. My loading bench for the comparison is under $250, well under. If I outfitted my theoretical handloader with a very complete setup as one could with a budget of $300.

Using my methodology and your figures, we are in very close agreement, which is what I was looking for. Thanks

Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

If you're only going to load 12 boxes of {whatever}, why bother reloading at all. :)
(truncated for brevity)
Because one might load 12 boxes PER WEEK, or per year. The time factor really doesn't enter into a straight-up cost calculation.

Respectfully,

Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

Cost/saving analysis of reloading threads are funny.

I like reading how other people justify what they do and how they do it. I got into reloading to save money on ammunition. Not really working out for me. I just shoot more. But I find it fun and it keeps me out of trouble so I guess it's worth it.
I know. I am glad to bring a few giggles and grins into the world.

Yes, I do shoot more because I reload. Any number of rounds per year is more than zero. If I did not load my own, I would be just shooting 22s or BBs/Pellets.

Thanks for the opinion. You are right, of course; the "cost of reloading vs retail purchase" is an overdiscussed topic (unless you are new to reloading, in which case it is all fresh and new to you). But I hoped that counting cost not by dollars, but by quantity of ammo, the comparison could be applied across the years and across borders/currency exchanges and across different marketplaces. In some areas of the country some components, equipment and ammunition prices vary a lot. I was thinking of making the stale, old "cost" discussion a little bit newer by leaving the currency behind and looking at commodities.

After all, a man does not buy a drill because he needs a drill. He buys a drill because he needs holes.

Lost Sheep

[ArchAngelCD]

Just to make things simple, when it comes to .38 Specials I can shoot more than 4 to 1 when reloading over buying factory ammo for the same price...

On top of shooting 200 rounds or more instead of 50 I'm also firing more accurate ammo than I can buy. Add the fact reloading is very relaxing and a hobby in itself there's a lot of good reasons to reload.

When it's very cold in the middle of the Winter I spend my shooting time reloading instead. Then when the weather breaks there's plenty of ammo to shoot all Summer long. I even process all my rifle brass in the Winter (clean, deprimed, sized, primer pockets cleaned, trimmed, deburred and chamfered) and load them as needed. You can load 40 or 50 rounds of rifle ammo quite quickly when the brass is ready to go...

[DLEJones]

Here are my 2 cents...
I have been reloading on my friends Dillion 650 for nearly 20 years..well, I broke down and purchased my own last year. I shoot PPC matches, 45's and 38's. I start practicing the first week of Jan. for a match usually in mid-April..once a week with both guns, 150-200 rounds each week. Then by March I start shoot 6 times a month up until the time of the match. I couldn't afford to shoot like that if I didn't reload. I enter 3 events and have 17 medals over the last 8 years. Practice is my edge and reloading keeps it in my budget.

[RustyFN]

Welcome to the forum DLEJones.

[BullfrogKen]

I've played this game several times on the forum. It gets old after a while.


Bottom line - Reloaded rounds cost about half of comparable factory ammo. Want cheap junk? Buy it, or load it. It'll cost about half reloaded. Want primo ammo? But it, or load it. It'll cost about half reloaded.


I handload because I get a whole lot more flexibility with what I shoot over what I can buy. And there are some things I shoot nobody produces.

[Sniderman]

OK,
price check on aisle 4,, .45 ACP per 50 x12
Per round pricing...
brass--------$.02 ea.
primers------$.03 ea
bullets-------$.12 ea
powder------$.02 ea.
total---------$.19 ea
total per 50--$9.50
X12 boxes---$114.00

thats the approximate breakdown of what it costs me,
multiplied by lots of rounds for lots of calibers, = lots more shooting for my money.:D

[Kevin Rohrer]

I don't cast, but get my brass for free from ranges. It costs me $5.40 for a box of 50-rounds of .45ACP.

[Deavis]

This subject gets brought up all the time, same results. Everyone brags about how cheap their ammo is to reload, but it is rarely apples to apples or comprehensive. Its much like when people talk about their efficiency when brewing beer.

One comparison here was 9mm WWB FMJ and then it is compared to the cost of 9mm with cast lead bullets? No personal offense, but factory made FMJs are a bit more expensive than bullets someone casts themself using wheel weights they got for free. It is also not fair to compare a brand new cased 9mm WWB to a once-fired case you are using.

If that is your metric, compare it to once fired ammo from Ultramax or another manufacturer to be fair. These threads are more rigged than a Don King fight, especially when many people refuse to even put a price on their time, which is the most ridiculous and self-serving way to ensure your ammunition is always cheaper than factory.

I haven't saved a single dime!

Exactly, and you probably loved every minute of it. Economics are only on your side for a few calibers when you make an honest comparison, but in the end, you are talking about what is a hobby to most people on here. Enjoy it and shoot up your "savings" like the rest of us.

[RandyP]

"especially when many people refuse to even put a price on their time"

I completely disagree - I put the same price on my free time spent reloading as I put on my free time spent watching TV or my free time spent enjoying any of my other hobbies. Free time speaks for itself.

I have never enjoyed a hobby using hours I would otherwise have been earning $$$.

Most all reloaders would agree that they spend the same or more money now that they reload but can now shoot a lot more for the same money spent.

[BullfrogKen]

Why oh why do folks who want to criticize reloading continue to confuse economic cost and accounting cost?


Discussion of the terms here -
http://www.unc.edu/depts/econ/byrns_web/Economicae/Essays/Profit.htm

We really do need to contain our discussion of the cost of reloading vs. store-bought ammunition to the real costs, the explicit costs. Otherwise you'd need to factor in the implicit cost for everything we do . . . time actually shooting the ammo, time spent eating, sleeping . . .

Everything in life has an opportunity cost. The term itself is confusing for those not familiar with the science of Economics. But just as Economics is not concerned with the study of money, the cost in opportunity cost is not a dollar value.

I sympathize with Walter E. Williams and Thomas Sowell. For lack of a basic education, I continually see people make this basic mistake in arguments criticizing the reloading hobby. The opportunity cost of reloading is not a dollar value. That cost does have a value, but it's expressed in what the reloader gave up to engage in the activity, not dollars.


If it takes a reloader one hour to load his ammo, he gave up what he could have otherwise accomplished in that hour. It could be washing dishes, watching a television show, time with the wife and kids . . . but none of those are a dollar value.

I hate doing dishes, so let's say I loaded ammo instead of washing dishes. The opportunity cost for reloading 200 rounds of ammunition was having clean dishes. I could not express the opportunity cost as a dollar value until I gave up doing something that generated income to load my ammunition.

[BullfrogKen]

One comparison here was 9mm WWB FMJ and then it is compared to the cost of 9mm with cast lead bullets? No personal offense, but factory made FMJs are a bit more expensive than bullets someone casts themself using wheel weights they got for free. It is also not fair to compare a brand new cased 9mm WWB to a once-fired case you are using.

If that is your metric, compare it to once fired ammo from Ultramax or another manufacturer to be fair. These threads are more rigged than a Don King fight, especially when many people refuse to even put a price on their time, which is the most ridiculous and self-serving way to ensure your ammunition is always cheaper than factory.

I did this exercise in February in another similar thread. I'll repost it here:



OK, if you think his numbers are off then we'll use my calcs. I stopped going through this mental exercise almost 20 twenty years ago when I started reloading. But we'll go through it again for instructional purposes. Nearly every time I tried to compare factory ammo of similar quality to what I can handload, I find I'd have to pay roughly double buying factory. As you will see, we'll arrive at roughly the same figure.


I shoot 175gr Sierra MatchKings through my .308 in 600 yard F-class matches. I go through roughly 1,000 a year, so we'll figure out how much that costs both factory and handloaded.

You're in luck! I just got my MidwayUSA sale flyer for February. MidwayUSA has them on sale this month. Federal 308 Win Premium Gold Medal Rifle Ammunition (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=747244)
$220.99 per 200. That's $130.00 off the regular price. Now that's a deal! Or is it? We shall see . . .


We'll start with the bullet components. They're on sale too! $134.99 per 500.
Sierra 175gr Sierra MatchKing (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=1482335572) We'll need two boxes. And just to be nice, I'll even pretend we missed the sale and use the regular price of $144.99 = call it $300 for bullet components (round up for shipping).


I can get my primers and powder at my local gunshop, so I do . . . 1,000 primers cost me roughly $30.00 per thousand. I can get 8lbs of IMR4895 at my local retailer for $140.00, but I don't need 8 lbs. We only need 6 to load up 1k .308s, so that's $100.00 even.

I still have about 2k in .308 brass here, and haven't needed to buy any in many years. But let's say I did need to buy it. Let's go get 200 pieces of brass, they'll last at least 8 reloads so 200 is plenty to go have 5 afternoons of fun. Whoa . . . Federal is selling brass again. Cool. :) They ceased offering it for years once CCI/Blount bought the company - I just learned something. $23.99 per 50, so we'll need 4 boxes = call it an even $100.00.
Federal .308 brass (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=281551)

So, the components cost us $530.00.

That great sale on the exact same Federal factory round with those Sierra bullets is $1,104.95, before shipping. See, roughly half.


But what about my press and equipment you ask? I do own a LOT of reloading equipment and tools. But I've been using the same Lee press for over 15 years. My scale, powder measure, and dies about the same time frame. That's what we accountants call capital assets, like your car. In fact, I've gone through several cars since I began reloading. My tools are still here.

The equipment it takes to load should be spread out over time, a long period of time, and not justified in a "break-even" analysis. I know guys who are still using their same equipment from 40 years ago. The problem with trying to figure out how many units it takes to pay back capital is tough when you don't know how many units you'll produce on it over it's whole life. And you will see that the components will eventually cost more then the equipment over time.

We'll capitalize the costs and amortize them out over 20 years.


Lee Classic Cast press (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=317831) $99.99, great press.
RCBS's premium scale (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=415607) $151.99
RCBS powder measure (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=491524) $86.99
Lee dies (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=148525) $30.99. Awesome dies, but barely even worth capitalizing.

If I were doing this "for real", none of this stuff would be worth enough for an accountant to bother capitalizing anyway. It's just not material enough. Let's throw in another $200.00 for calipers and other assorted small case prep tools. We're up to $569.96 in equipment, just barely over the cost of the components. And if you are curious, by happenstance we also just broke even, almost to the penny.

Amortized that equipment's going to cost me just under $30/year over 20 years. Merely shooting nothing but 1,000 rounds of .308 every year costs me $530.00 per year in components (at todays' prices by the way). You can see why over a lifetime of shooting why we say the equipment is such a small cost over the cost of the actual components that it can practically be ignored. That same factory ammo on sale was $1,104.95.


Half. It's always half the price to load the same quality yourself. Check my numbers and sources. They're all real-world and documented.


The only question you have to ask yourself is this. Why pay someone else to do work you can do yourself for half the price?

There are no other "true costs". The opportunity cost is "what else were you going to do tonight?" I reload while listening to the nightly news.

[rjfunk]

Bullfrog, nice to see another accountant on here. I'm a CA (same as CPA) from Canada. In all my analysis (I had to do it before I bought in even though I was going to reload anyway :)) the cheap ammunition (read Federal Powershok) reloading costs about 60%-65% of the factory ammo, but anything up from there was right around 50%. I buy the cheap stuff to get brass and then reload it. Our component costs are a bit higher compared to ammunition up here.

You did a good job explaining the relevant costs, so that should be enough for anyone to decide whether it's worth it from the cost perspective. By the way, it's too much fun to not do it.

Have a great day.

[BullfrogKen]

Thanks. I hope someone else besides another accountant can understand the explanation. A true master of his craft can explain challenging concepts with ease to a layperson. I'm not there yet, but I make my best effort.


By the way, those prices really haven't changed a whole lot in 10 months, but they have changed a bit, haven't they? I've seen bullet and brass component prices rise a bit. Because of the metals used in them the devaluation of the dollar is making its presence felt.

1,000 rounds of that Federal Gold Medal Match at regular price is a whopping $1,500-$1,600. The cost in the exact same components used to load them is still about $550-$600. The premium ammunition does tend to cost a good bit more. I speculate it's due to more attention from quality controls and increased testing.

But yes, usually it's somwhere around half the price of the pre-assembled ammo, for the opportunity cost of dirty dishes. :D

[Lunie]

BfK,

Excellently written and perfectly understandable. Thanks!

[grandpawj]

I will post this now, knowing I will have much more to say later. However, I am setting up to do my own reloading, and have already spent close to $1,000 and have yet to purchase even the bullets, primers, or powder. Trust me, I know it's gonna save me lots to do my own reloading. (chuckle, chuckle)

[jelenko]

There are many good analyses here.

Another way to analyze the cost of reloading is to determine how many rounds it takes before the cost of the reloading equipment is paid for in savings from reloading.
As others have said so well, a lot depends on what you're looking for in your ammo. Plinking ammo is much less than match grade. And, if you're competing, you can tune your ammo to get better accuracy than factory ammo.
Another key variable is the value of your time. This is a personal decision. For me, I have time and choose to value my time reloading as $0. In fact, there's some positive value to me [i.e., it's kind of a hobby] and would actually reduce the actual dollar cost of a round.

My only real experience is with 223 rem and 308 win. For both of those, the out of pocket cost per round is about $.33 for 233 and $.47 for 308. That includes the cost of cleaning the brass and the cost of the brass spread over the expected number of reload. That represents about $.50 per round savings for 223 and about $.93 per round savings for 308.

Assume my set of reloading presses, dies, guages, mics, etc cost $2000.

So, I've recouped my 'overhead' costs in 4000 rounds for 223 or just over 2000 rounds of 308. After that, I begin to realize actual $ savings [again assuming I'm willing to not charge for my time.]

HTH

[BullfrogKen]

jelenko, the equipment isn't overhead. It's either your fixed cost, sunk cost, or your capital cost, depending on how you want to look at it.

The components are the variable cost. The equipment you bought is bought, and it isn't going to change (unless you buy more) as you load your ammunition. The variable costs do. To load 1,000 rounds you need 1,000 bullets, 1,000 primers, and X amount of powder. To load 500, you need 500 . . . and so forth.

If you bought the equipment but loaded none, then your variable cost is zero.



Furthermore, the Break-Even analysis is the least used, and least valuable forecasting model in business and accounting to evaluate a capital purchase or business decision.


I guess for our purposes it'll work, but with the Federal .308 GM Match example I laid out above, you should have noticed that the cost of components quickly surpasses the cost of the equipment. It's so insignificant that it really doesn't factor into the total explicit costs of loading ammunition yourself.

[wanderinwalker]

First off, I want to say great posting by BullfrogKen. I seem to recall reading the thread where he made that initial comparison a few months back as well.

Second, I don't think it's worth looking at breaking the cost down by box, or how much savings, or whatever. It's a hobby to enjoy while engaging in another hobby. If you want to do it, you'll do it. If you don't want to reload, you won't, and you will justify it by saying "I could by X amount of ammo" or "For the price of *equipment* I could have a new *SIG/H&K/Remington/Winchester*".

In a straight up apples-to-apples comparison, it's about half the cost to make ammo versus buying the same thing off the shelf. I reload .223 match ammo for about the cost of the FMJ bulk plinking packs at the big box mart. If the goal is to only have the ammunition, without any regard for how well it shoots, yes, it would be easier to buy. But I need the better performance of a good match load for what I do (see my sig line) and I sure am NOT going to pay the retail price for Black Hills or Federal.

It's the same way in hunting rifle ammunition. I can get a box of 100 Sierra ProHunters for my .30-30 for about $22. Add $25 for a pound of powder (good for about 200 rounds) and 2 trays of primers ($7 at LGS pricing) and I've spent about $42 for that 100 rounds. The same 100 rounds loaded in the green-and-yellow box would be about $80-85 locally, maybe a bit less if you catch a pre-hunting season sale.

In handguns I like to shoot Magnum revolvers. My current favorite is .357. Locally these run $24/50 at box mart for 158gr JSP Federal .357. My reloads run 158gr Noslers ($34/250, caught on sale), CCI-500s ($35/1000, LGS), Alliant 2400 ($25/lb, about 500 per pound) and Remington cases (bought when the scare started, I think $22/100). Fudging a little for case-life cost, I get under $12 for the same 50 reloaded, and it takes about 10 minutes to make once the press is set-up.

And unless I start working multiple jobs to fill in all of the empty hours in an evening or weekend, reloading time doesn't cost me anything (as BfK explains so eloquently). Well, maybe loss of Internet posting or TV watching time. No big losses there... ;) (Actually, I could say reloading time is a fraction of the time spent practicing, traveling and shooting matches.)

[beatledog7]

I never tracked this before, but just so I'd have a basis for comparison....

Earlier today I loaded 50 .38SPL plinker rounds as follows:

- Magtech 158gr LRN bullet .....$.11
- CCI 500 primer ....$.03
- 3.3gr Bullseye ....$ .01 based on 2121 rounds from one pound at $20/lb (which is high, but I'll assign a penny to it)
- My own brass (either range pick-up or acquired from simply not tossing it when I shot it)

So that's a high estimate of 15 cents/round, or $7.50 for a box of 50.

Midway currently has Magtech 158gr LRN ammo on sale for $13.99/50-round box, which one might say is not a bad price. But my home rolled 158gr-ers cost just over half the factory ammo price, and they're tuned for my 642 vs being shootable by any .38spl on Earth. Plus, I enjoyed the process of making the rounds and seeing them finished, so I don't count my time. (I suspect I spent a total of maybe 2 minutes per round from pick-up to crimp, and I'm slow.)

The formula would of course vary for different calibers, weights, bullet types, etc., but this is a reasonably representative sample. I'll take that every time.

It's almost to the point where I'll go shoot so I'll have some brass to work up.

[BullfrogKen]

I can't recall ever having a passion for reloading thinking about all the money I was going to save myself over factory ammo in the process.


But I have gotten excited over shooting calibers or rounds that simply aren't available for sale. I've loaded Varmint 32-20s with 110 grain V-Max rounds. I've loaded hot 38 Supers in all sorts of competition and defense-loadings that no one sells. I load up .308s for matches that my rifle shoots well, not the "average chamber and barrel". I could go on and on.

And back when the ammo shortage was at it's peak, because I reloaded I could still shoot. Components cost less to inventory - or stockpile for those of you who like to whine about life not being fair and hate on us guys that planned ahead. Having components like primers and powder that work across many different calibers means we can shoot whatever we wanted, as long as we had a bullet for it.

Flexibility; better quality; freedom from being limited to a small variety of factory-loaded options and independence from the stock-outs at the stores is what makes me enjoy reloading. The reduced cost is just a bonus. I shoot a lot more because my money goes farther, and I'm a much better shooter because of it.

[zxcvbob]

Some cartridges cost so much to shoot, it takes all the joy out of shooting if you don't reload. "Bang! (cheeseburger), Bang! (cheeseburger)", etc. .45 Colt and .41 Magnum come to mind...

[Sport45]

If I ever have to move again, I'm screwed. Maybe my truck will hold all the lead and the bullets, but I dunno. It's [the truck] just a half ton...

Sounds like you'll get to add the cost of a new truck to the reloading tab... :)

[jelenko]

Bullfrog - Yes, overhead is not capital. For this discussion, what is the difference it makes?

As for the value of payback. For this discussion, I think that most people would be worried if they were 'saving money' on each round but didn't get paided back for 10 years. Most of us would consider that 'not saving money'.

Right?

[BullfrogKen]

jelenko,

I like to think that with my earlier example I illustrated how the cost of the reloading equipment itself is very quickly dwarfed by the cost of the components, and is insignificant to the total cost of handloaded ammunition.

About the only way someone would not come out ahead loading his own ammunition is if he bought the equipment and only loaded one or two hundred rounds of inexpensive pistol ammunition, such as 9mm.


We're not talking about spending 10 or 20 thousand dollars on manufacturing equipment here. For about the price of a quality handgun or rifle someone can outfit himself very nicely. Really the only costs that matter are the cost of the components needed to load compared to the cost of factory ammunition.

[Deavis]

But just as Economics is not concerned with the study of money, the cost in opportunity cost is not a dollar value.
....The opportunity cost for reloading 200 rounds of ammunition was having clean dishes

Sorry Bullfrog, but I don't think that your link supports what you are trying to say.

All costs, whether monetary or nonmonetary are opportunity costs

Opportunity cost can be either monetary or non-monetary but as Dr. Sowell so often points out, dollars are a convenient way of evaluating the cost in a manner everyone can relate to. One of his examples is that the price you are willing to pay for goods (say oranges) represents your willingness to exchange a medium (dollars) for the convenience of not growing your own oranges and, hopefully, doing something else instead worth more to you (and others so you make money!)

Your clean dishes cost you something, and we can convert it to a dollar cost by analyzing what you could have done with your time in different scenarios (like working,explicit), what you would have paid someone to do them (explicit), or what type of tongue lashing you would endure before the wife does them herself and makes you sleep on the couch (implicit). It all costs something, you have to put a value on it and that is tricky in the latter case but I bet you'd be willing to pay something to have someone clean the dishes instead of sleeping on the couch IF you FELT had enough money to jusitfy it.

I don't think it is worth getting into a peeing match over it because not many people are willing to look at the situation without resorting to the, "I wasn't doing anything anyway so it didn't cost me anything," line or some other excuse for devaluating their time. For instance,

Really the only costs that matter are the cost of the components needed to load compared to the cost of factory ammunition

What if you took all the time and money you spent on reloading and sunk it into practice and training? What if it enabled you to become the next Jerry Mikulek? What if you then could train people for $250k a year? You sure that the only cost in reloading was your components or does it include the $250k you let go (opportunity cost). Reloading wouldn't look all that good to you then, would it? It cost you a lot more than components, because you let go hundreds of thousands in earnings to pull a handle as a hobby.

As you point out, very few people are willing to entertain such economic arguments and this won't change.

[Hondo 60]

I actually found some of that "free range brass".
It's very, very rare at my club, but some schmuck, just sprayed brass all over & left.
I'll bet I picked up about 10 lbs worth.

It's all 7.62x39, but it's 100% brass (FC headstamp)
So I won't be reloading it, but it'll get me some $$ for primers next I go to the recyclers.

[BullfrogKen]

Actually, it illustrates what I'm trying to say quite well. The link to those lecture notes are concerned with discussing the differences between accounting profits and economic profits, so you see dollars expressed. That's the specific point of the lecture.

But it states what an opportunity cost is quite well right before that text you lifted out:

You know that the value of the best alternative forgone is the economic cost of anything from lard to romance.

Here's the definition -
Opportunity cost is the cost of any activity, among mutually exclusive choices, measured in terms of the value of the best alternative that is not chosen (that is foregone).

Economists do NOT try to relate opportunity costs to monetary values when teaching the concept. In fact, when I learned it my professor said the opportunity cost of coming to class tonight was watching a college basketgame game.

Another example - relationships. I love both Sally and Sara, but I cannot marry two women. The opportunity cost to marry Sally is having Sara as my wife, and vice versa.

Business tries to assign value to mutually exclusive choices, because their goal is maximizing profits. So when a manufacturer decides between making women's shoes or women's purses, shoes is the opportunity cost to make purses. Or purses is the opportunity cost for making shoes. The rational choice is which provides more profit.



The whole point of this exercise is to reject the notion of people here who say time and time again that reloading has a “hidden cost” – our time – which must be assigned a monetary value, otherwise the cost comparison isn’t a “true and fair comparison”. Nonsense. The difference in monetary cost between factory and hand loaded ammunition is the cost of what you buy. Period. This isn’t business. If you’re sacrificing an activity than earns personal income to make time to reload, you probably don’t have time go shooting either. Still doesn't change the fact that reloaded rounds are cheaper than factory.

The cost of your time truly is expressed in, “what else were you going to do tonight?”

[BullfrogKen]

What if you took all the time and money you spent on reloading and sunk it into practice and training? What if it enabled you to become the next Jerry Mikulek? What if you then could train people for $250k a year? You sure that the only cost in reloading was your components or does it include the $250k you let go (opportunity cost). Reloading wouldn't look all that good to you then, would it? It cost you a lot more than components, because you let go hundreds of thousands in earnings to pull a handle as a hobby.

I don’t know anyone who got nationally ranked in Highpower Rifle that didn’t reload. Of the several dozen accomplished sport handgunners I personally know, only one of them doesn’t reload. Even your friend Jerry reloads; he uses RCBS presses and equipment.

Make $250k a year training others? Hate to break this to ya, but trainers don’t make that much.

Take some training and practice a bit huh? Perhaps I’ll look into that. But you know I do kind of enjoy pretending to be Smaug, perched high atop my pile of loading components and ammunition like its treasure.

[Caddisflied]

It took me about an hour to reload a box of rifle ammo last night.
The components cost about $10.00/box, (not counting the cases I'd already saved).
The only available factory ammo for that rifle within 75 miles of here cost's $35.00 per box (and doesn't group nearly as well).
There was no opportunity cost involved that would have yielded profits.
I bought my reloading equipment used, over 20 years ago for $200.00 and it included all but a few of the little gadgets needed to load.
But I don't reload to save money. It's just rewarding to try and make ammo that shoots more accurately than what you can buy.

[RustyFN]

Opportunity cost can be either monetary or non-monetary but as Dr. Sowell so often points out, dollars are a convenient way of evaluating the cost in a manner everyone can relate to. One of his examples is that the price you are willing to pay for goods (say oranges) represents your willingness to exchange a medium (dollars) for the convenience of not growing your own oranges and, hopefully, doing something else instead worth more to you (and others so you make money!)

Your clean dishes cost you something, and we can convert it to a dollar cost by analyzing what you could have done with your time in different scenarios (like working,explicit), what you would have paid someone to do them (explicit), or what type of tongue lashing you would endure before the wife does them herself and makes you sleep on the couch (implicit). It all costs something, you have to put a value on it and that is tricky in the latter case but I bet you'd be willing to pay something to have someone clean the dishes instead of sleeping on the couch IF you FELT had enough money to jusitfy it.

I don't think it is worth getting into a peeing match over it because not many people are willing to look at the situation without resorting to the, "I wasn't doing anything anyway so it didn't cost me anything," line or some other excuse for devaluating their time. For instance,

Yep that kind of thinking takes the fun out of everything. I lost $300 worth of time going shooting today. You guys should feel special because I lost $400 worth of time talking to you all on the interweb.

What if you took all the time and money you spent on reloading and sunk it into practice and training?

If I didn't reload I couldn't shoot near as much or often. I have around $800 in equipment, that's not going to get you very far with factory ammo.

[Lost Sheep]

A good discussion (and I am among those who count a dollar value on my time spent reloading, but just for academic purposes - I would reload even if I had to value my time at zero in order to make the comparison of factory price minus handloaded price a positive one), but off-topic I think.

In my original post, I just wanted to induce a discussion comparing the cost of reloads to the cost of factory measured in boxes of ammo vs dollars as the medium of exchange/measurement.

In that way, I thought to achieve a comparison of factory vs handloads that was independent of local markets (thinking components, equipment and factory ammo would be, in relative terms, higher or lower by the same degree no matter where you were, or when -2011 or 1970). I thought it would even transcend caliber (except for a few of the really cheap or extremely expensive ones, like 9mm, 223 Remington or 500 Smith&Wesson or 416 Rigby).

But I am enjoying the debate and learning a lot about assumptions, about economics, about loading and about psychology.

Lost Sheep

[RustyFN]

A good discussion (and I am among those who count a dollar value on my time spent reloading, but just for academic purposes - I would reload even if I had to value my time at zero in order to make the comparison of factory price minus handloaded price a positive one), but off-topic I think.

In my original post, I just wanted to induce a discussion comparing the cost of reloads to the cost of factory measured in boxes of ammo vs dollars as the medium of exchange/measurement.

I am curious what dollar amount you figure for reloading, I don't put a dollar amount to any of my hobbies. You are not missing work to reload so should the rate be the same as your job? Also if you are going to figure an hourly rate for reloading should you not figure the same rate for your time to drive down to buy factory ammo plus the gas? If people are going to figure time for reloading then it should be fair across the board or you are cheating the other direction.

[falic]

The best answer I've heard is that either way you're going to spend the same amount of money. With reloading you'll just put more rounds down range.

[rick300]

I'm with falic, I don't miss work to reload, I don't miss family time, my chores are done. I do miss some couch potato time. But when I go to the range I can shoot three or four boxes instead of one. Rick

[DLEJones]

Bullfrog,
Your comments are on target. Special ammo for example, 173 gr .308 are hard to find, I just loaded 400 of them. Having them all touch on the target, well, try to contain my smile. I shoot because it provides some joy in my life. I reload so I can have an abundance of joy.
You hit all the points in costs, great job. Anyone that fails to understand your comments isn't trying. Let them pay more and have less joy.

[RandyP]

I recall during the 'great ammo shortage' over a year ago I happened to be simply window shopping one day wandering the aisles at my nearest Cabela's store. Saw several folks get disappointed when their caliber's shelf was near empty.

I distinctly remember thinking " No worries for you Randy - you have components and can make all the ammo you want."

I ain't no CPA ner nuthin', but I cypher out that THAT sense of well being (ammo wise) is priceless.

[Lost Sheep]

I am curious what dollar amount you figure for reloading, I don't put a dollar amount to any of my hobbies. You are not missing work to reload so should the rate be the same as your job? Also if you are going to figure an hourly rate for reloading should you not figure the same rate for your time to drive down to buy factory ammo plus the gas? If people are going to figure time for reloading then it should be fair across the board or you are cheating the other direction.
Sometimes zero, sometimes my wage rate (after taxes, of course) and sometimes I let the calculations tell me how much I am paying myself. Sometimes my "wages" (the money saved per hour of reloading) is nil, and rarely negative. Sometimes $10-12 per hour or more.

I just crunch the numbers for the mental exercise and entertainment purposes. Obviously, I am easily entertained.

"I love work. I could sit and watch it for hours." I don't know whose quote that is, but it is precious.

Lost Sheep

[brickeyee]

Brass is the single most expensive component in most rounds.

Using it over is the big source of savings.

With lower pressure loads (.45 ACP, .38 special) the brass can last a LONG time.

You are more likely to lose a .45 ACP shell than wear it out.

[Redneck with a 40]

Right now, my cost/box is running as follows:

40 S&W = $6/50
9mm = $5.50/50
.223 = $4.20/20
.308 Win = $9/20........Using Nosler custom comp HPBT bullets, match grade ammo.

[dc.fireman]

http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp

[orionengnr]

Some cartridges cost so much to shoot, it takes all the joy out of shooting if you don't reload. "Bang! (cheeseburger), Bang! (cheeseburger)", etc. .45 Colt and .41 Magnum come to mind...
Coincidentally (or maybe not) I handload for both of those cartridges :)

But 90%+ of my handloading is for .45 acp, because that is what I carry daily and what I shoot weekly. Without casting, my .45 acp rounds cost about $6.00 per box of 50. That makes weekly shooting affordable.

In comparison, if I bought 50 rounds at Wal-Mart every week for $19.99, the difference in one year would be $728.

I have been handloading for about three years now, so...by that calculation I am $2184 ahead.

Minus about $439 for my press, $40 for a set of dies, another $100 for manuals, scale, calipers...I guess I am only $1605 ahead...and gaining at the rate of $14 per week ($728/yr) forever.... :)

A note on fixed/sunk costs:
I have put a certain amount into my Dillon press and dies, etc...
I have taken Accounting and business classes, and I understand the terms.

But I am not in business, so I cannot write any of these off.

However, if I ever decide to get out of hand loading, I can get a fair percentage of my investment back. So these costs are largely recoverable.

[zxcvbob]

Coincidentally (or maybe not) I handload for both of those cartridges

Then you understand the "cheeseburger" part. :)

[voicomp]

Per round, by reloading I save a fortune.

I also gain the opportunity to learn (e.g. .45 to 40 Sabot through a .45 LC revolver is a cool idea (and WILL fire the first time) but shreds of sabot (sooner or later) clog the cylinder gap, preventing cylinder rotation).

And I can, if careful, experiment (see above for a fail). I didn't do well w/ trying to make .223 Timbs either.

So far I know I can jam out some plinking ammo and reasonable higher-vel loads (built ny the book) to get comfy w/ how premium ammo oughtta flow.

If I look at it as $$ per hour + set up costs, I lose. If I look as deriving pleasure (for whatever reason) I win.

[One78Shovel]

I kind of chuckle when folks put a 'value' on their time spent reloading. If you are in the garage pushing the handle instead of doing the things that allow you to sit in the garage, your priorities are hosed..

When reloading, I choose to dedicate that time instead of say, ride my scooter, wash the truck and watch TV. I get a particular buzz knowing I am stockpiling what the 'man' will come for one day. California already has twice tried to ban online ammo sales.

Further, the liberal anti-gunners just hate what I am doing as well.

I digress.....

I reload because I shoot.

-178S

[Wildbillz]

I am with 78Shovle on this one.

I decided long ago that I would not be denied the use of my firearms due to lack of ammo. Be it by edict or supply. So I keep a small supply of primers, powders and projetiles (ok brass to) on hand at all times. During the last ammo drought I had to buy 1 box of ammo (380acp as I didn't load for it and bought a pistol in that caliber). Ohter then that it didn't bother me in the least. The one before that I barly knew it was on (Primes with built in self life, who ever thougt that one up?).

Normaly one of the first accesorys I get for a new gun is a set of reloading dies in that caliber. Heck I have dies for calibers that I don't eaven load any longer or yet. I saw a deal on a set of dies for 5.45x39 (AK74 round) and picked up two sets. Never used em yet. May never but they are cheap insurance. I pickup brass at the range in all calibers as long as its reloadablet. Use to be I was one of the only ones that did it or so it seemed. Now guys are making good dough selling the picked up range brass.

I know that surplus is cheap and the russians will allways make it as long as the US is buying. But I also recall Presadent Clinton putting out an EO that stopped the import of all the cheap Chinese 7.62x39 ammo and other goods. Guys scrambled to get it and the supply ran low. The price in reaction whent up. What we felt like was way up at that time. Cheap 7.62x39 went from $.50 or so a box to over $5.00. Luckly the russians steped in and filled the gap. Think what it would be like if they had not or couldn't fill that gap? So a $35.00 investment in a set of reloading dies is a sound yet cheap investment. I have spent that much at MickyD's in a week for lunchs.

Supplys are cheaper when you buy in bulk. I bought an 8Lbs jug of Unique for under $100. Thats like $12.50 a pound. Primers, I have paid between $130.00 and $90.00 per 5K depending on maker and model. Don't want to spend that much? Team up with a couple of buddys and split it up.

Keep in mind that in the long run most if not all surplus ammo will one day dry up. Its the nature of surplus. Or the boogie man may one day make it impossable to get your favorite caliber any longer.

Sorry for rambling.

WB

[HOWARD J]

I don't reload to save money---it's a hobby

[Jasper1573]

In my original post, I just wanted to induce a discussion comparing the cost of reloads to the cost of factory measured in boxes of ammo vs dollars as the medium of exchange/measurement.

Yes, it's cheaper to reload if you shoot a lot, and if you reload, you will likely shoot alot. That's a nice circular explanation, don't you think?

I reload because I shoot.


Amen to that...despite the fact that I have saved enough money to pay for my reloading set up twice over in about 1 year of reloading, that isn't why I bought the equipment. I am always looking for something interesting and enjoyable to do, and reloading falls in with shooting...both are interesting and enjoyable; both involve mathematics...I am a high school math teacher, so there you go.

Now, most of what I have said doesn't involve cost, so I bet we all reload for enjoyment, accuracy, and consistency, etc. It allows us to use our minds, which, if we don't, will shrivel like our aging bodies.

And, money ain't what it's all about!

[RustyFN]

Now, most of what I have said doesn't involve cost, so I bet we all reload for enjoyment, accuracy, and consistency, etc. It allows us to use our minds, which, if we don't, will shrivel like our aging bodies.

That's it. I would still reload if it cost the same as factory. That's the same reason I got into casting. If you didn't enjoy it I don't think you would be doing it for very long.

[Tango Sierra]

Not everyone who reloads ends up shooting more and not saving money and not everyone does it because they enjoy it as a new hobby.

In 2002 and 03 I used to go the the indoor range three or four times a month and shoot 500-600 rounds of factory ammo per session but after a couple of years it got boring. I then discovered IDPA and USPA and started shooting at matches three or four times a month firing anywhere from 65 to 125 rounds per match and found that a lot more fun.

A friend gave me some of his reloads to shoot for a match and after that I knew I needed to start reloading for competition. I don't enjoy reloading one bit but I did it for the custom power factor rounds then and now that I'm retired I do it for the savings. If I now had to buy factory ammo I would have to give up shooting. For me reloading is a necessary evil.

Even if you don't cast your own bullets you will save at least half by reloading 9mm or 45acp as long as your not buying high end bullets like Speer Gold Dots or Hornady. I reload a lot of 357sig and since my components were purchased in 2006 my cost for 357sig is only $3.45 per 50 reusing old brass. None of my friends shoot 357sig so they give me any 357sig brass they find at the range. I reload 9mm for $3.25 per 50 but this will end by next summer because I'm running out of components and new components will cost me a lot more but it will still be half or less than buying new factory ammo.

I just wish I could teach the dogs to do the reloading for me.

[voicomp]

Does reloading "save me time"? NFW! I lose hours in the basement (when it is convenient for me to do so).

OTOH, it gives me something productive to do (at times when life might otherwise force stgnation) that is a change of pace and gives a sense of accomplishment/autonomy. There is even room for careful creativity.

Does it save me $$? YES (but not much). Before, I used to stop shooting when I had "spent enough (too much?) on ammo" or ran out. Now, I stop when I feel I have shot my fill (or wrist(s) or shoulder(s) sore or eyes can't reliably focus on target or tested enough of what I made (tpo figure out the next revision) or am slowing badly on pull-aim-shoot w/ a sort of buff boomstick....).

I confess, my .22's probably feel lonely but on a 1 for 2-3 ratio to shoot my 38/357 or.44 or similar, instead, I will save my .22 ammo for some teaching or "focused plinking" (scopes on bottle caps at 25' yards instead of cans at 25' w/ handgun iron sights.

YMMV (espcially if you live for semi or full auto)

[Cheers]

I think if you really like to shoot and be accurate, you need to reload. Forget about the cost. I don't think it is a very expensive hobby compared to my golfing buddies. Shoot, reload and enjoy.

[perryg114]

I am just starting to get back into reloading and shooting in general after about a 10-15 yr break. I have all the stuff to reload but I am trying to decide if it is worth it. I have the brass and the primers and some powder. The biggest expense seems to be the bullet. It looks like a .357 or 9mm bullet is around $.10 each in bulk. This is either copper coated or Jacketed. I won't shoot lead and have never been able to get lead to work without fowling the barrel. Now add about $.02 for powder and you are at $.12 a round. You can get reloads or new for about $.20-.25 a round. This is not even including the brass, and primers. Which I already have. Actually, I have several pounds of powder as well. For Rifles the projectile costs almost as much as a loaded round at least for common calipers. So do I save my reloading stuff for the end of the world, or do I shoot that up and save the factory stuff eventhough it is overseas manufacture? The main cost item here seems to be the bullet itself that can cost anywhere from 50-150% of factory ammo. I am having trouble justifying the time involved in reloading right now.

[Reefinmike]

not too sure where you are getting your numbers, last time I checked, a box of 357 magnum brass is running $25 a box or 50 cents a round. using tulammo primers, HP-38 powder and berrys plated 357 bullets, im loading it for 6.25/box or 12.5 cents a round... 1/4 the price of factory ammo. casting and using the previous mentioned components, I have 38 special under 1.40/box.

for rifle, your standard run of the mill plain jane 224" 55gr hornady fmj is $100/1,000 or ten cents a pop. im loading it for about $3.50/20 round box. last time I checked russian steel case was $5+tax and decent brass ammo was $12/box.

midwayusa.com
montanagoldbullet.com
powdervalleyinc.com
wideners.com
patsreloading.com

[Flt Simulation]

Here is a link to a fantastic calculator if you want to know what it cost you to reload cartridges: http://www.reloaderhub.com/calculator.cfm

I only load .45 ACP


Precision Delta 230 gr / FMJ RN bullets ($132 per 1,000)

Winchester small pistol primers

Winchester 231 powder (5.2 gr)

Range pick-up brass (free)


Cost is 18 cents per round / ($9 per box of 50)

[GLOOB]

I did the math when I first started reloading. Even compared with bulk ammo prices, I was able to break even with my first $500.00 spent on getting setup for 9mm, 357, and 45ACP. This included the cost of all the gear and components. My first set of components were all bought locally at much higher prices than I have since paid, to boot.

I just looked at it like buying $500.00 worth of ammo, some assembly required.

I did the same cost comparison when getting into casting. I paid for my furnace, lead, and molds in my first big casting session.

[cfullgraf]

I am having trouble justifying the time involved in reloading right now.

This seems to be the main discussion point. Folks that enjoy reloading, the time means nothing. For folks that reloading is drudgery, the time spent means everything.

If you consider your time as important and/or not readily available, you will never justify the investment in time and materials for reloading.

[Hillbillyz]

For me and many others it's a hobby, or an extension of our shooting hobby. Look at the guys that do wood working. By the time you factor in the cost of tools, materials, and labor, it would be much cheaper to buy a piece of furniture, even high end stuff. But if you enjoy wood working it's relaxing and an enjoyable hobby.

[hovercat]

1 to bullfrog. Especially calibers that are scarce or not available. If you handload, you can buy that neat old rifle that is discounted because ammo is not available or hard to find/ crazy expensive.
7.65 Argentine
35 WSL
16 ga
Wife likes her 38s&w police positive for the smooth DA trigger pull.

Not to mention all the light recoil training rounds that the kids shot growing up. They really enjoyed shooting 30/06 at 6 years old. I loved the looks of the other shooters as my daughter loaded up the magazine, they would cringe in sympathy for the poor kid, and the rifle would go POP, less than a 22. Son still shoots 'reduced recoil' rounds for hunting in his 06. Have you seen the price of those commercially? Daughter likes shooting skeet with a light powder load 20ga pushing 3/4 oz of shot, I have not seen where I can get that off the shelf. And it is cheaper, especially when you consider that it is custom ammo.

[stiffdogg06]

I've only been into reloading for a couple of months now. At first, it was to save money and shoot more for my money. But it has turned into a delightful hobby of mine. In addition to that, I enjoy shooting stuff I "made".

Next step will be to cast my own boolits.

[poboy6]

First post here.

I got into reloading recently because I absolutely love my Lee Enfield .303 British No4 MK1*. The prices were getting pretty high for rounds made in the last half-century (you know, the ones that don't hang fire? :D ) so I ordered a few reloading books and got the Lee Classic Loader for $30 plus shipping.

I went to my LGS and paid $27 for 1lb of powder and $37 for 1k primers, plus tax. 150grain bullets I got cheap but you can still find them for $25/100.

Plugging these numbers in the handloading calculator I came up with $.468 per round, which does not count the cost of the brass as I currently have a fair amount.

It's tough to find .303 British around here so if I ordered some online I'd be looking at $.70 per round plus shipping unless I buy a case.

Then I decided to "upgrade" to a Lee Hand press and get some .30-06 dies, along with 8lb of powder that will work for either caliber.

Again plugging in the numbers I now come up with $.416 per round, not counting anything for brass.

And over the past couple weeks I've seen the dreaded SOLD OUT sign next to .303 on many of the popular websites that sell ammo.
:(

I don't shoot as much as I'd like so I don't see me upgrading equipment any time soon but I certainly feel like I've made a wise decision.

[Kachok]

Lets do a breakdown of one of my favorite hunting loads, the 165gr SGK 30-06.
Factory ammo cost about $40 a box localy or $36.11 on Cheaperthendirt.com that comes out to $1.80 a pop if I buy cheaper online, and assume I did not have to pay shipping.
My cost to make a near identical handload that shoots even better.
Bullets $0.27 each
Primer $0.03 each
Powder 57gr IMR4350 $0.18 each (if I don't buy in bulk)
Brass $0.15 each (once fired at the local range) and I can use them at leased 8 time on that load so say $0.02 each shot.
Avarage that out and I am paying $0.50 a shot instead of $1.80 less then 1/3 the price or $10 a box.
Now figure in that I usually get most of my reloading supplies on sale and I am well under that, the difference is pretty dramatic if you like to shoot alot, plus I enjoy handloading and would do it even if the price were the same.