Help us test a polymer AR-15 Lower


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NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 06:07 PM
I've read through pages upon pages on this forum and a few others about a few of the current polymer AR lowers on the market today.

I've come to the conclusion that there are 3 types of people weighing in:

1)The Owner - The guys that have them and love them and understand their purpose as a very cost effective way to have an AR (or an additional AR) in your stash that will hold up just fine during normal range/hunting/plinking use. These guys understand that they're not being put out to replace the Colt as the nations battlerifle overseas, etc. 90% + of what they say about them is positive. Key features being weight and price.

2)The Skeptic - The guys who still have trouble saying Glock is a reliable firearm, think that aluminum is 100 times stronger than polymer and can put up with much more torture, etc. Tried and true and sticking to their guns on this one......no purpose for a polymer lower. Spend the extra $100 and get a "real" lower. Explain over and over why they wouldn't trust their life to it (which no one has ever asked them to do).

3)The Gun Forum Guy - The guys that saw 3 pictures of broken polymer lowers on ARFCOM but can't dig them up that easy. 2 of those pictures being aluminum receivers, but you can't tell them that. The 3rd you can clearly see vice jaw serration marks on the magwell where this thing was tied down and beat to death. But because they "read about on a forum" or "heard from a buddy's buddy" about one breaking so they're going to steer clear of them until they go mainstream and are "proven"

So, I'm sure most of you reading this will fall somewhere into one of these categories. I mean no offense with these descriptions, so please don't take it that way. I don't blame your opinion no matter which category you fall into because its your opinion.

What I am trying to do is a little bit of fun factor testing for a product we will be releasing very soon. It's similiar in some ways to other products out there, but I believe our assembly process, QA process, and the parts we use are superior. I also believe we will have their price beat at the same time.

We're putting together some videos to document certain tests.

We have some ideas already, but we'd love to hear what might sway you from the belief that the poly lowers aren't as durable as aluminum forged. Can they be broken, of course. But most of what we tried that actually caused a failure to the poly, produced the same failure with aluminum.

Here are some of the myth's that we will be disproving:

1) Doesn't hold up to many rounds because of the polymer parts in the FCG
2) Will "melt in my hand when shooting it"
3) Will deform with heat
4) Will "shatter" if dropped
5) Will break if any pressure is put on it
etc, etc, etc......

We will be doing a lot of tests that other companies haven't done for some reason or another, and I think we'll be able to sway a few folks from group 2 and 3 into owners.

So, give us your ideas on some torture tests you'd like to see that would actually make sense and help you understand the strength of the product.

Thanks in advance for any feedback we receive!!

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Adam123
November 30, 2011, 06:15 PM
Shoot lots and lots of rounds. That should do it.

Gordon
November 30, 2011, 06:15 PM
I have a later Bushmaster Carbon 15 (with forward assist ect.) that I bout for $400 with Calif. Bullet button. I have 4 other preban ARs registered with Ca. but thought this might be a light weight range toy for women and young people . Convince me!

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 06:24 PM
We have a FA that has over 10K rounds through it (almost all full auto mag dumps) with no problems. We'll def have one test of the rifle being thrown accross the desert from person to person while doing 100 rd mag dumps on full auto at every stop.

On top of that we're going to set up our jig that runs the hammer and trigger at a faster pace than anyones finger can, and run that until something doesn't want to go anymore. We'll have to time laps the video, but we'll get something out there to this effect.

MistWolf
November 30, 2011, 06:37 PM
If you are serious about establishing the toughness of your polymer lower, give it to Larry Vickers and let him do a test similar to the one he put the DD carbine through. Overkill? Perhaps, but for one, I wasn't surprised to see an AR survive the punishment. (What did surprise me was that the Aimpoint survived.) This would go a long way to proving a polymer lower is worth considering.

There have been Plum Crazy lowers that have split along the mold line, had FCG hole wallow out and the threads for accepting the receiver extension fail. Polymer uppers have had the threads for the accepting the barrel nut fail.

The difference between a Glock polymer frame and the polymer AR frames I have seen so far, is the quality of polymer, quality of process and the use of metal inserts. Manufacture your lower with the appropriate polymer & processes and use metal inserts, you will have a winner. As I trust my life to my AR (and all firearms) every time I shoot (I do not want it to blow up in my face) manufacturing a firearm that I "don't have to trust my life to" is one I cannot afford to buy

armoredman
November 30, 2011, 06:39 PM
I'd try one. I didn't like poly for years, got a CZ P-07 and my fantastic CZ SP-01, and I am a convert. I am all up for affordable stuff for people like me, on the bottom end of the economic totem pole.
Need some pictures done? :)

essayons21
November 30, 2011, 06:40 PM
Heh, people said the same thing about Magpuls magazines. All the torture tests and running them over with trucks put an end to most of that.

Heck it was before my time but I remember seeing people saying similar things about Glocks... again until they were run over, buried, and dropped from airplanes. Just don't put them in the oven!

Hopefully, if these lowers are good quality, a few good torture tests will have the same effect.

HKGuns
November 30, 2011, 06:43 PM
HK has been pretty successful with the G36 platform. The only issue I have heard with them, this might not be directly translated to an AR lower in polymer, is they sometimes wander about their zero. Even with metal re-enforcement in critical areas and with HK's renown weapons engineering prowess.

I've seen no documented evidence of this, only "internet lore" more than likely intended to slander the platform. If you assume it is true perhaps demonstrating accuracy over a sustained period of time would be a good idea?

wnycollector
November 30, 2011, 06:50 PM
As the owner of three Cav Arms MKII lowers, I definitely fall into the "owner" category. One thing I would like to see on the a new polymer lower is an A1 stock. I much prefer a fixed stock because it offer a superior cheek weld IMOO.

biggameballs
November 30, 2011, 07:14 PM
Send a bunch of lowers to members here to try out.

25cschaefer
November 30, 2011, 07:20 PM
Send a bunch of lowers to members here to try out.


And a pallet of ammo.

Dr.Rob
November 30, 2011, 07:23 PM
I'd say you give out lowers to a bunch of 3 gun/tactical match shooters and let them give their 2 cents.

Nothing in the lab is the same as using one in the field. I suspect you'd get results by letting a bunch of real shooters 'use them hard' without 'subjecting them to actual combat'.

Most of the broken lowers I've seen have been dedicated 22 LR platfroms.

Zerodefect
November 30, 2011, 07:28 PM
I'll test one. I'm glad I fit into category #4. Anything that helps get more AR's out there can't be a bad thing.

Pop a BCM 14.5" BFH/ 12" Larue Rail/ PWS 556 upper on one and send it to Vickers or Rodgers to use as a loaner in thier classes. I'm sure they'll find ways to test it.

I'm concerned about the buffer tube mount area snapping off when I butt swipe people Davy Crocket style. ( Or landing on the rifle dropping to urban prone etc.

I'm also concerned about the pins opening up the polymer holes. (If applicable) And it better be able to fit Pmags.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 30, 2011, 07:41 PM
Run construction equipment over them! They did that to a SIG P220 in one test.

taliv
November 30, 2011, 07:44 PM
The op sure sounded like it was meant to be offensive and derogatory despite claim to the contrary. It also seems pretty trollish.

Are there any polymer lowers on the market besides plum crazy?

I don't think many people have an issue with a high quality polymer. I certainly hope someone builds one.

Lot of strawmen myths too. A significant percent of adult gun owners believe an AR lower made from the same material as a glock will crack or melt or deform or shatter? Really?

Please.

If your target market is the hobby/bumpfire crowd then carry on with the mag dumps. If you want to convince the shooters in the crowd that your lower is higher quality than the other polymer lower then take some classes with it. You might find that manipulating the weapon is where most of the malfunctions show up. Not doing mag dumps.

68wj
November 30, 2011, 07:47 PM
I hereby volunteer to test one on a 6.8 SPC and .458 SOCOM. :D

chaser_2332
November 30, 2011, 08:04 PM
Send me one, I run a bunch of matches a year of all types, I'll even take down to PMG and Tom "taliv" and the rest of the badger crew see what they think about it. I'll throw a scope on it and run the "pond" stage haha if history dictates that will be a proving ground I always have somthing happen there

kwelz
November 30, 2011, 08:07 PM
The op sure sounded like it was meant to be offensive and derogatory despite claim to the contrary. It also seems pretty trollish.

I agree with this. Coming in and insulting part of your potential customer base is not a great way to start off.

You forgot category #4. People who understand the ins and outs of the AR platform and know what works and what doesn't. These people also understand the industry usually and know how to produce/sell/market parts and guns. These are the people you need to win over. I am sure a number of them would be happy to actually test your product. But they are going to honest with you on the results, good or bad.

RatherNotSay
November 30, 2011, 08:12 PM
Key features being weight and price.

I'm sorry but how much weight and price are we talking about here? Unless it weights SIGNIFICANTLY less and sells for around $25 what would be the purpose?

rcmodel
November 30, 2011, 08:17 PM
I'm not a # 1 or #3.
But I might be a #2.

My experiance is only with one Carbon-15, and it was the sorriest excuse for an AR-15 I ever tried to get to work.
And I didn't even own it.

A good friend's son bought it new, and we fought it for two months without getting it to run a full mag without at least several stoppages of several kinds.

He finally sold it at a loss to cut his losses.

rc

RatherNotSay
November 30, 2011, 08:20 PM
If a 9mm flexes the frame of a glock I wonder what a 5.56 or 6.8spc will do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4MdYrwUU0E

Zerodefect
November 30, 2011, 08:22 PM
The op sure sounded like it was meant to be offensive and derogatory despite claim to the contrary. It also seems pretty trollish.

Are there any polymer lowers on the market besides plum crazy?

I don't think many people have an issue with a high quality polymer. I certainly hope someone builds one.

Lot of strawmen myths too. A significant percent of adult gun owners believe an AR lower made from the same material as a glock will crack or melt or deform or shatter? Really?

Please.

If your target market is the hobby/bumpfire crowd then carry on with the mag dumps. If you want to convince the shooters in the crowd that your lower is higher quality than the other polymer lower then take some classes with it. You might find that manipulating the weapon is where most of the malfunctions show up. Not doing mag dumps.

I agree. Bumpfire tests amd mag dumps will prove nothing. AR shooters allready know by thier lack of charred fingers, that the lower deosn't get that hot.

You need to get these things into the hands of respectable posters here and on ARFCOM. Especially carbine classes.

taliv
November 30, 2011, 08:34 PM
Rather not, there is plenty of receiver flex in aluminum ARs too. Doesn't really keep anyone from posting sub minute groups. But yeah I would certainly expect more flex from polymer.

Rcmodel carbon fiber is different. (as I know you know)

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 08:37 PM
I agree, and like I said, I wasn't trying to be "trollish" or derogatory in anyway, thats why I'm asking you guys for your input.

The list of "problems" I made was taken from posts here on this forum and another large AR forum.

Yes, I understand that they can all be disproved, but they obviously need to or people wouldn't post these things, right?

Like I said, not looking to piss anyone off or convert anyone, I was just looking for some input on what you guys would like to see as far as tests.

Thanks for the input so far!

Zerodefect
November 30, 2011, 08:39 PM
Yup, the carbon nylon molded polymers can be really stiff.

It's not fair to compare modern expensive polymers to the cheap Chinese plastic we're used to. The Polymer frame of my Ruger P95 is hard like ceramic or glass. My Glocks and Karhs have a bit more give and flex.

Are we talking Hudy/Xray/Mugen polymer or cheap AE/Losi polymer??? LOLz.

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 08:39 PM
from RATHERNOTSAY: I'm sorry but how much weight and price are we talking about here? Unless it weights SIGNIFICANTLY less and sells for around $25 what would be the purpose?

7.5 oz weight difference from a standard AR-15 lower, and $99 for a complete lower, so about $100 savings.

Like I said in the OP, the intent is more for a low cost, light weight plinker thats safe to shoot.

taliv
November 30, 2011, 08:44 PM
Keep in mind you can usually get psa aluminum lowers for $49

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 08:47 PM
Stripped lowers for $49.00. This is complete with all US made mil spec LPK and 6 Position M4 stock for $99.

Cob
November 30, 2011, 08:48 PM
from RATHERNOTSAY:
Quote:
I'm sorry but how much weight and price are we talking about here? Unless it weights SIGNIFICANTLY less and sells for around $25 what would be the purpose?

7.5 oz weight difference from a standard AR-15 lower, and $99 for a complete lower, so about $100 savings.

Like I said in the OP, the intent is more for a low cost, light weight plinker thats safe to shoot.


Any versions available other than AR-15? I think $99 is a little steep for a plastic/composite lower. I would think 1/2 to 2/3's that price to be competitive with AL.

if available in .308 or caliber bigger than .223, I'd like to test one.

rcmodel
November 30, 2011, 08:48 PM
I was reading the Purple Poison or Plum Crazy, or whatever it is called comes complete with a plastic hammer & trigger too.

Hows that work out for ya?

rc

RatherNotSay
November 30, 2011, 08:49 PM
Rather not, there is plenty of receiver flex in aluminum ARs too. Doesn't really keep anyone from posting sub minute groups. But yeah I would certainly expect more flex from polymer.

Rcmodel carbon fiber is different. (as I know you know)
The comparison is substantial between the 2 in reality. One is a wave of energy passing through and the other is complete distortion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEBMlfhlxYg

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 08:49 PM
COB, this is a complete lower with buttstock. Using quality parts you couldn't build that for 1/2 the price.

taliv
November 30, 2011, 08:50 PM
$99 complete would probably get a lot of attention if it works

Robert
November 30, 2011, 08:50 PM
I'd be happy to run, test, one in the Tactical Rifle matches here in CO next season. Season runs March- October.
Match thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=581003

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 08:51 PM
The polymer FCG actually holds up very well, and thats where the mag dump / full auto tests show well to put a bunch of rounds through it faster than anyone in the market will.

You have to remember you're talking hi-tech polymer mixes and not the plastic that chinese toys are made out of.

chaser_2332
November 30, 2011, 08:53 PM
If all testing is done in house by the manufacturer consumers are not impressed. If you are confident in your product send some out to be run through the mill on real world applications.

taliv
November 30, 2011, 08:55 PM
Polymer fcg? Now I'm skeptical. Look forward to seeing them in some classes. Hope it works as you say...

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 08:58 PM
We definetly will, but I believe that we should be the first line of guinea pigs, right? I have to set a base line just because of the huge lack of information out there, and then yes, we will definetly be sending out some demo models for independent testing.

The other problem we face is that with similiar products that were on the market before or are out now, many went out as kits and were not assembled properly. There are also a lot of people with problems that sound like they're coming from the upper, rather then the lower.

We will definetly have some complete rifles floating around dealers all over the US for customer demo by late winter.

Zerodefect
November 30, 2011, 08:58 PM
Is this lower also going to use plastic fire control parts or standard steel parts?

I'm not sure where my preference is. I think I like steel better in AR's, but my FN PS90's plastic parts are holding up fine, as are my buds FS2000 parts.

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 09:00 PM
It will be a mix of steel and polymer FCG parts used in the receiver.

RatherNotSay
November 30, 2011, 09:01 PM
The polymer FCG actually holds up very well, and thats where the mag dump / full auto tests show well to put a bunch of rounds through it faster than anyone in the market will.

You have to remember you're talking hi-tech polymer mixes and not the plastic that chinese toys are made out of.

Glock polymer is among the strongest and flexing is still seen. It's durable yes but I would like to see the firing of a 5.56, .308, and 6.8spc

proven
November 30, 2011, 09:02 PM
i agree with others. having it run through classes by a third party is the surest way of convincing naysayers and building confidence in your product. full auto mag dumps are fine, but if it starts failing during classes it's game over.

Girodin
November 30, 2011, 09:02 PM
So, give us your ideas on some torture tests you'd like to see that would actually make sense and help you understand the strength of the product.


I would like to see a few taken to a well known, high round count carbine course, and put through its paces.

Put a 458 Socom upper on it and shoot it, a lot. I had faith in the cav arms lowers after Tony Rumore of tromix reported that it held up just fine to heavy full auto use with a 50 AE upper. Put a 50 BMG upper on it and shoot it a bunch. Slow fire 50 BMG is a different kind of stress than high round count hard use. The latter is more important to me but subjecting the lower to the big 50 should get some attention. Maybe let someone put it through its paces with a season of 3 gun. Bonus points if they shoot He man with a big bore upper.

Basically I'd like to see tests that simulate how I actually use my guns.

I think any test becomes much more meaningful if the same thing is done to known commodity for a basis of comparison. Also to the extent there are independent testers and evaluaters.

A $99 complete lower would be of interest to me. It wouldn't replace my go to Novekse but would be nice for a light weight build. My preference would be that the FCG parts are replaceable with standard parts so it I want to change them I can.

NewFrontierArmory
November 30, 2011, 09:14 PM
The FCG will be 100% replaceable with any mil spec LPK.

fatcat4620
November 30, 2011, 09:15 PM
Hit it with a baseball bat then shoot. Do this until it wont shoot. Drag behind truck until it breaks. Do anything and everything to it but just make sure you have a Colt AR right next to it taking the same abuse. If you can beat the Colt then you would have the market.

Zerodefect
November 30, 2011, 09:32 PM
The FCG will be 100% replaceable with any mil spec LPK.

That's a good idea.

RA51
November 30, 2011, 09:33 PM
I have a Plum Crazy lower I use now. Light weight, the polymer trigger an hammer work fine. I give 110 for the complete lower, 400 for complete upper, 100 for scope. It is a fun rifle to shoot an was more accurate than I expected. I use 50gr v-max I reload an shoot great. Come out with a light weight lower an I would buy it just to try it.

Zerodefect
November 30, 2011, 09:38 PM
Stripped lowers for $49.00. .

Now we're talking. I'd grab a a pair as soon as they pop up at my local show.


Guy's, the AL milspec models are only $85.
http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=245_246&products_id=22563

rcmodel
November 30, 2011, 09:47 PM
The FCG will be 100% replaceable with any mil spec LPK.Before long, you could get yourself back up to to what a metal lower & FCG costs in the first place.

Oop's! I'm being a #2 again!

rc

RA51
November 30, 2011, 09:56 PM
So NFA sells Plum Crazy lowers, an you are trying to make a cheaper one ?

Fred_G
November 30, 2011, 10:04 PM
My questions on a polymer lower are durability. A quality polymer lower, with metal take down pins, and a mostly metal FCG, I might show some interest, depending on price.

A very high round count shooting 6.8SPC or the 6.5 Grendal would be a good test.

You say quality parts, can you say which ones? And what model stock would be offered at the $100 price?

I have a PC polymer lower. It worked with no problems in my 5.56 gun. I don't care for it. Personal feelings, taste, whatever. I am keeping mine to one day build a fun .22 AR.

I can't say anything bad about the PC lower. I just like aluminum. Some really solid testing with calibers bigger than the 5.56 might make me think about a polymer lower in the future.

Boomie
November 30, 2011, 10:11 PM
Where are the $99 complete polymer lowers? I just checked the New Frontier website and they are $130.

http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=91_1_134_135&products_id=312

I have no personal experience with Plum Crazy polymer lowers. I'd like to try one at some point. As far as flexing - I don't think the AR design puts a lot of the recoil energy through the body or grip of the lower. As long as the stock and where it attaches is solid it should be fine.

I think there have been many fine polymer pistols and rifles. I have a FS2000, which I love, that has a lot of polymer in it (including the FCG). I have no problems dropping prone on it but would probably not throw it, or my Aimpoint, out of a helicopter (like in the DD video) - I don't have the money to get another! I've read about tons of people doing 3-gun with Cavarms lowers so a functional polymer lower AR pattern rifle is not outside of the realm of reality.

Back on topic, I'll second the folks' opinions who would like to see 3-gun type testing more than mere high round counts. I'd do lots of butt-swipes of punching bags, drop prone on them, roll around in the dirt with them. Drop them while running. Things like that.

If it can stand up, I think a Plum Crazy lower with a budget priced, light weight upper would be a good combo and very marketable.

fatcat4620
November 30, 2011, 10:23 PM
Boomie, Cav Arms lowers rock because the two weak spots (where things bolt on to a normal lower) are molded in. I would put a Cav Arms lower up against anything.

Boomie
November 30, 2011, 10:28 PM
Boomie, Cav Arms lowers rock because the two weak spots (where things bolt on to a normal lower) are molded in. I would put a Cav Arms lower up against anything.

Oh, I get that. I guess what I was saying is that I have no personal experience with Plum Crazy lowers (good or bad) but that I wouldn't discount them just because they are polymer or because they have a polymer FCG. I think butt swiping a punching bag, maybe swinging them over your head by the barrel into the ground (like chopping wood), maybe pin it to a bat and go to a batting cage - whatever would stress where the stock screws in (and where people seem to suspect they are weakest). Of course I'd want to see it done with an aluminum lower too. :D

jmorris
November 30, 2011, 10:30 PM
I'll help. I have a few cav lowers that have had my 458 socom upper on them without problems. Maybe someone with a 50 BMG upper can see if it will come apart.

gunnutery
November 30, 2011, 10:43 PM
Sorry, I haven't read all the responses yet, but you should make some videos of clearing jams (slamming the butt stock on the pavement while holding the charging handle. That would be a good one.

tazman141
November 30, 2011, 10:53 PM
why dont you try a drop test from different heights and in different environments. i also sugggest trying to shoot 10k rounds in one go.

MistWolf
November 30, 2011, 11:23 PM
Keep in mind you can usually get psa aluminum lowers for $49

To be fair, $49 is their sale price for a PSA stripped lower. Their regular price is $79

JohnnyK
November 30, 2011, 11:24 PM
3-gun... where I go shoot 3-gun there is a big sign that says it is a "REALITY CHECK" for your weapons... and it's true... I can shoot hundreds of rounds at a shooting range at clays or paper without a single hiccup... but once you are going against: yourself, everyone else around you and a timer... stuff starts falling apart... jamming... etc... I'd love to test some of your stuff... would you be able to do custom serial #'s... I'd be interested in that too...
also, I carry and love my Glock 23... I have no issue with the lower part made of plastic... it freaks people out who haven't seen a Glock when I take it apart to show them how light it is... it would be interesting to see an AR or other Evil Black Rifle in plastic... but why are the uppers in Glocks made of metal? as opposed to it being a full plastic gun?
I'm sure there must be some pieces like the bolt made of metal in the plastic ARs you make? right?
also do your plastic ARs eat anykind of ammo... like the steel cased Russian cheapo stuff I love to shoot or just brass cased stuff? Johnny

NewFrontierArmory
December 1, 2011, 12:20 AM
Thanks for a lot of great ideas guys, and feel free to keep them coming.

The product will be out and ready to demo around mid January. I think I've found a few "devils advocates" here that I can send some free demo lowers out to to get them knocked around a bit.

I'm glad I stumbled upon the thread that brought me here!!

And for the mod that thought I was trolling....I've contacted site admin to inquire about becoming a site sponsor already, just so you know I wasn't trying to "dine and dash". :)

kwelz
December 1, 2011, 12:26 AM
I really hope you come out with a good product. I implore you not to put out a "good enough" product. If you are going to make it then please make it to the highest quality possible. I have no doubt a good polymer AR lower can be produced. But there hasn't been any made yet.

mnrivrat
December 1, 2011, 02:35 AM
I am running a couple Plum Crazy lowers and they are fine so far. I am not a high volume shooter and don't roll around in the woods playing war games.

One concern I have is the strain on the hindge area if the upper is allowed to fall downward freely. This puts a strain on the hindge , and might be a good test.

Now someone needs to build a complete upper for $300.00 or less .

Dr.Rob
December 1, 2011, 02:50 AM
I have a Colt 6920, I'd be happy to run your lower on my upper and see how it goes.

If NOT, I shoot with Gus March-October and we can compare a 'stock' 6920 (I have a different flashhider and pistol grip, that's it) against your complete lower match for match. Round count for round count so to speak.

I'm definitely interested in a 'complete lower' as a test bed for a 22cal CMMG upper I have. At a $100 ish price point for a complete one I'd definitely be willing to buy one.

(And until clicking that link I thought we were talking about something other than Plum Crazy.)

madcratebuilder
December 1, 2011, 07:05 AM
What is the weight difference between your stripped lower and a typical 7075 stripped lower in oz's?

essayons21
December 1, 2011, 09:30 AM
Come on guys, if a polymer lower is lighter than an aluminum lower and can withstand the same kind of abuse as a high-end AR, wouldn't you think it would be significantly MORE expensive rather than less expensive?

This lower is on the market at about 1/2-1/3 the cost of a "standard" complete lower. 1/2 the price and all the performance? If that is true then these will soon be on a 6-month backorder.

Probably not true, I am also worried about the buffer tube threads and pin holes. But if it is reliable and durable enough for your average range toy use, its still a hell of a deal.

I don't own one of these lowers, nor do I have any affiliation with the manufacturer or anyone selling them. But I think that everyone criticizing a new and fairly innovative product because it MIGHT not meet the standards of a Colt with 50 years of development is a little harsh.

I for one would like to get one of these lowers along with a carbon .22lr dedicated upper and make an inexpensive and lightweight fun gun for new shooters.

jem375
December 1, 2011, 09:41 AM
So far, my Plum Crazy lower has worked out just fine, fits tight and no problems...

USAF_Vet
December 1, 2011, 10:12 AM
Depending on what tax time looks like, I'm going to be in the market for a new rifle. For the time being, I'm kicking around between an SKS, a Saiga in sporter config (with full conversion coming later on) and a budget AR.

If I choose the budget AR, the Polymer lower has the advantage of price in it's favor. As I'm not a 10k rounds a month shooter, I don't see why a poly lower wouldn't hold up to the light abuse I'd foresee putting it through. However, with the AR market flooded, and prices falling, the polymer lower has a long way to go to convince me it's a better buy than a different budget AR, like say the S&W M&P 15 sport. When an on sale M&P can cost as little as $600, the price point of the polymer lower starts to sink. Sure, Plum Crazy and now New Frontier offer complete lowers for about $100 when they are on sale, but what about uppers? An average upper with few frills is going to cost $350 easy. Is the $150 overall savings really worth it?

I'm intrigued by the polymer lower, but it it comes down to spending $450 on a bare bones unproven poly AR versus $350 for a sporter Saiga made to the same specs as the military model AK, then it isn't much of a decision. I'll save the money and get what's tried and true. I'm intrigued, but far from convinced and parsecs from being sold on the idea.

Sky
December 1, 2011, 10:26 AM
The price will have much to do with the acceptance. Two Plumcrazy lowers for the price of one complete lower sold all over the Internet was a deciding factor for me (there is a thread about the purchase and discussion of their merits).. I am not a big fan of polymer anything but the two PC lowers I placed on .22 uppers has been a great success for my purposes. Good luck and hope the endeavor works well for you.

JustinJ
December 1, 2011, 11:09 AM
I'm fully satisfied my MY HK UMP/USC conversion. They key though is that it has a metal skeleton at key points. I think doing the same for a polymer AR lower could result in a fine product.

What type of "plastic" are these made of? Is it the same as is used in any existing firearms such as glocks, HK UMPs, etc?

Zerodefect
December 1, 2011, 12:03 PM
Come on guys, if a polymer lower is lighter than an aluminum lower and can withstand the same kind of abuse as a high-end AR, wouldn't you think it would be significantly MORE expensive rather than less expensive?

This lower is on the market at about 1/2-1/3 the cost of a "standard" complete lower. 1/2 the price and all the performance? If that is true then these will soon be on a 6-month backorder.

Probably not true, I am also worried about the buffer tube threads and pin holes. But if it is reliable and durable enough for your average range toy use, its still a hell of a deal.

I don't own one of these lowers, nor do I have any affiliation with the manufacturer or anyone selling them. But I think that everyone criticizing a new and fairly innovative product because it MIGHT not meet the standards of a Colt with 50 years of development is a little harsh.

I for one would like to get one of these lowers along with a carbon .22lr dedicated upper and make an inexpensive and lightweight fun gun for new shooters.

Alot goes into building an AL lower. It's amazing they are as cheap as they are. A polymer lower gets pooped out of a molding machine, ream the pivot holes good, thread the buffer tube mount, and call it a day.

Polymer should be cheaper to produce than a forged then machined lower.

kfgk14
December 1, 2011, 12:24 PM
The polymer FCG is just terrible, replace the polymer LPK and compare the polymer LPK lower with the non-polymer LPK. I'll take aluminum in most cases, but if I were to build an ultra-light AR-15 I might hunt down a Cavalry Arms. The PC's just need non-plastic LPK's in them, along with reinforcement at key points. I don't doubt polymer, I doubt polymer without reinforcement. I love my polymer handguns.

Cob
December 1, 2011, 02:29 PM
I'll take a complete lower for 99 when they become available in jan

Cecil Sharps
December 2, 2011, 11:13 PM
Polymer for polymer's sake won't sell a product. What are the advantages of your product? Sell me on it over a 65 buck delaware machine forged lower. I own a keltec su16c so i have a polymer rifle. Who is your target market, who are you competing with?

Test that i would like seen done on video. Hot and cold weather tests. I'm also curious to see how the lower would respond to repeated cycles of cold, hot, cold.

For other tests i'd go crazy. Send the lowers to fps russia, and military arms channel. that will get you some sales. If you want your product on t.v. send a couple to red jacket firearms.

Send me a lower and i'll send you marketing plan.

gotboostvr
December 3, 2011, 04:49 AM
Do these have the same magwell area as a Cav Arms lower? I'm thinking about a .45acp carbine that runs on Grease Gun mags (cheap 30rd .45 mags!) and they fit in the Cav Arms lowers (apparently) but not in almost any metal upper.

NewFrontierArmory
December 3, 2011, 03:44 PM
Cecil, we have a pretty good marketing plan (we believe) and will be rolling it out more and more as it gets closer to release.

Our target market is people like you. Who own a Delaware machine lower and a Kel-Tec and realize that both will shoot at the range just fine even though they're not the best thing out there.

To sell you over a $65 forged stripped lower, we're going to sell you a COMPLETE lower ready to snap on to an upper for only $99.

Justin
December 3, 2011, 05:16 PM
Id be interesting in testing this with a Tactical Solutions .22 upper. I've found the Tac Sol upper is finnicky, and a cost-effective solution to that issue would be really nice.

Id also be happy to run it at a Tactical Rifle match.



Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk

alemonkey
December 3, 2011, 09:45 PM
I would be interested to see what would happen if you froze the lower/entire gun, then dropped it on a hard surface. If it can stand up to that I'd say it's good to go as long as the internals are durable. I'll admit I'm skeptical about a polymer fire control group, but if it could hold up to a high round count and had a decent trigger pull I would consider one.

I was skeptical about the Plum Crazy lowers but after holding a lightweight rifle built with one I can see their utility. I probably wouldn't use one in a life-on-the-line situation, but for anything else they're probably ok. If they run ok with a dedicated .22 upper it would make a great gun for a young kid. My daughter really enjoys shooting my dedicated .22 SBR, but since she's such a tiny little thing even that is kind of heavy for her. I wouldn't mind trying one.

Cecil Sharps
December 4, 2011, 11:17 AM
You need a better unique selling proposition other than price. Price will only grab people chasing the bottom line on a cheap rifle.
Why is your lower a better mousetrap than a forged lower? Highlight that.

Another test i would like to see is on the internals. Mixing metal and plastic i'd like to know if the interior gets scratched or marred by the metal. I'm also curious to how the holes for pins hold up over repeated use.

NewFrontierArmory
December 4, 2011, 04:09 PM
Cecil, its not neccesarily "better" over all. Some things, I think it is.

Selling point of $99 for a complete lower ready to pin to an upper is important to a lot of people, but besides that weight is a huge advantage. 7.5 oz to someone trying to complete a light weight build is a big deal.

We will have the lower mounted to a clacker showing constant cycling at a pace much faster than anyone can shoot it.

NewFrontierArmory
December 4, 2011, 04:12 PM
Guys, just to kind of reitterate, we're not trying to re-invent the mousetrap or replace Colt as the go to rifle for the US military.

We're trying to put something out that is a safe, affordable means for someone to have an AR for around the $599 mark who otherwise couldn't afford it.

~Abstract~
December 4, 2011, 05:01 PM
Make a DPMS/Remington compatible complete .308 lower. There's plenty of 5.56 lowers and manu's...do something different.
Also use metal structural inserts.

And I'd LOVE to buy one.

NewFrontierArmory
December 4, 2011, 05:11 PM
The AR-10 platform IS something we're also working on, but it will be some time before its ready to be released.

Thanks for the input.

alemonkey
December 4, 2011, 05:15 PM
Selling point of $99 for a complete lower ready to pin to an upper is important to a lot of people, but besides that weight is a huge advantage. 7.5 oz to someone trying to complete a light weight build is a big deal.

That's where I could see this really filling a role. As a dedicated .22 rifle for a kid or a light weight rifle to haul around it could really work as long as it's durable. I already have a stripped lower that's slated for an eventual .22 build for my daughter, but I could be persuaded to go with something like this.

Fred_G
December 4, 2011, 05:18 PM
Guys, just to kind of reitterate, we're not trying to re-invent the mousetrap or replace Colt as the go to rifle for the US military.

We're trying to put something out that is a safe, affordable means for someone to have an AR for around the $599 mark who otherwise couldn't afford it.
Would love to see a picture or video of the 'clacker'.

NewFrontierArmory
December 4, 2011, 05:24 PM
Fred, we will have the video out in the next 2 weeks once we get it all wrapped up.

Bovice
December 4, 2011, 05:35 PM
Building a polymer lower for an AR-15 is a simple project, really. With all the CAD and FEM analysis software that is available these days its no trouble. You calculate your maximum stresses and choose a polymer to withstand it or use a mitigating structure like a metallic insert. High heat is not a factor, the lowers don't get hot. As far as stiffness and maintaining light-weight, choose a polymer which maximizes E-mod/density. Generally speaking, you have to sacrifice lower weight to increase stiffness if your goal is to avoid using reinforcement, like CFRP.

I'm interested to see where this project goes. I'm a senior mechanical engineering student, specialized in materials. Naturally this project is right up my alley. Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

kozak6
December 4, 2011, 05:55 PM
Run it over with a truck or something heavy.
Smack the heck out of it with a hammer.
Spray it with nasty solvents such as oven cleaner, degreaser, carb cleaner, etc as well as gun cleaning solvents.
Pull one out of the freezer and beat on it.
Put one in an oven to show use where it melts.
Take a torch to it.
Demonstrate scratch resistance violently.
Squeeze it in a vice.
Show us the metal inserts and tell us how awesome they are.
Demonstrate what Plum Crazy does wrong that you do right.
Show us how you protect the pin holes from premature wear.

mljdeckard
December 4, 2011, 05:56 PM
I agree, send me one. I'll build it and shoot the heck out of it and see what happens.

DBryant
December 4, 2011, 06:23 PM
Hmmm... This is interesting. I have a Cav-15 that I plan to build on so I'm not adverse to the idea of a polymer AR, but I'm not sure that I would go for one with a standard buffer tube arrangement.

During my time in the Marines, I saw two M-16A2's that broke. Both times it was the buffer tube. One was in boot camp during bayonet training. A recruit really put all he had into a horizontal butt stroke and the tube sheared off.

The second time was a stack of rifles that a gunny inadvertently ran over with a HMMWV. Same thing, the tube sheared right at the back of the receiver.

One of the things that I really appreciate about the Cav-15 is that it eliminates this weakness. Some of the things that I don't like so much about the Cav-15 is that it doesn't allow me to change pistol grips (I wouldn't mind something with some storage there) or use a larger trigger guard (it gets cold where I live).

I'm interested in your polymer lower, but not nearly so much as I would be if it had an A1 length buttstock molded into it and the ability to use the same pistol grips and trigger guards as any other AR.

Now as for suggestions for testing it, I recommend that you give it to a bunch of linebacker sized guys and have them run it through a bayonet course.

If it holds up to that, I would put a .50 BMG AR upper on it and run a hundred rounds through that setup. Better yet, take the same lower and do this test twice. Once after leaving the rifle out in a -25F night and again after it being out in a 120F day.

Of course these are quite outside the parameters of what someone will likely do to their rifle. Another test you might want to do is instead of just cycling the action, figure out how much force it experiences when firing. Build a machine to duplicate this and keep cranking up the force until it fails.

Strykervet
December 4, 2011, 06:41 PM
Okay, I am, have been, and always will be an AR nut, and I tested gear for the military and for the Stryker units beginning after 9/11. I'd say 90% of it was AR related, stocks, rails, gear for rails, barrels, you name it. Every single one sent free gear to test and keep afterwards (except Oly, they wanted their junk back, and we were happy to oblilge). Most even sent more than one so we could break a couple in order to have confidence in the breaking point. I had to write a letter on Bde. letterhead to our commander and I also wrote one on the same to the manufacturer. We told them what we found, what we did, and what we recommended they change in our eyes. Most took this to heart, and we were instrumental in getting the plastic arm mount on the PVS14 changed to a new design and material that flexed instead of broke! A few didn't, Oly included, we recommended a few small changes to their designs and they got angry about it, but we couldn't purchase and issue their parts as-is to our SDM's in good faith and so parted ways, a shame since they were just a couple exits past the fort.

We were pretty thourough, but keep in mind we were doing innovative things at the time and we were in no way testing things for the army as a whole (although some of the gear tested did end up in demonstrations we put on for the War College...). Simply put, I have experience doing exactly this sort of thing with AR's in particular.

Now I wrote a good long detailed version of the above in a PM to the OP because I'm interested in testing these for the sole reason of determining their value as a cheap range rifle or truck rifle. A $400 AR. Since he admits to not trying to compete with a mil spec rifle, no foul there. It doesn't need to be beat up, but it does need to be a good range rifle and wear well in that respect.

And with all my experience in doing this, the detailed letter I wrote him, and the offer I extended him, I haven't heard a peep from him. I contacted him when he started this thread, and he's been pretty active on here, but not so interested in actually having these tested out by folks in the know that have an open mind.

I think this thread is just a marketing thread to drum up business at this point, and I'll just keep filing the platic AR components in the possible junk file until either I test them myself or read a good test by someone I trust.

Just something to keep in mind. I have a fellow on here wanting me to test some pistol targets for him. He'll get a good review, and so will you, I promise. If this guy will send me a lower, he'll get a good review, but again, so would you all, so I suspect this is why he is ignoring me.

Bovice
December 4, 2011, 07:38 PM
The most cost effective way to test it isn't to mass produce a 1st run haphazardly and see what happens. The way to do it is computer simulation and careful analysis, where changes in the design can be done inexpensively. The 1st run should be something that you expect to work fully. If you don't use technology to your advantage, you'll burn through money just to finally settle on a mediocre product. Prototype testing should be with a low production number.

Another thing is people suggesting that we drive over it with a tank, hit with a torch, smack it repeatedly with a forging hammer, etc.

Since we don't know what the objectives are for the lower other than polymer, low cost, and low weight, those tests aren't important at all and can't be used as a criteria for success.

Eb1
December 4, 2011, 08:05 PM
I'd like to have one to build a suppressed 9mm AR. I mean there are images and videos of guys making AR lowers from cutting boards. So why not.
I'd like to see aluminum inserts for the treads to attach the buffer tube. I don't think I'd polymer threaded parts to mate with metal.
I haven't read the entire thread so excuse me if they are already like this, but if they prove to be reliable. I will buy one for a 9mm carbine if you go that route as well.

ants
December 4, 2011, 08:11 PM
Run it over with a truck or something heavy.
Smack the heck out of it with a hammer.
Spray it with nasty solvents such as oven cleaner, degreaser, carb cleaner, etc as well as gun cleaning solvents.
Pull one out of the freezer and beat on it.
Put one in an oven to show use where it melts.
Take a torch to it.
Demonstrate scratch resistance violently.
Squeeze it in a vice.Geez, a forged ALUMINUM AR-15 receiver wouldn't survive that.

Eb1
December 4, 2011, 09:16 PM
Maybe, maybe not, but a Polymer XD or Glock can.

NewFrontierArmory
December 5, 2011, 12:58 AM
Strykervet, I'm not ignoring you, just not at the point to send you one yet. After reading your PM last week, you are definitely on the list to get one.

We will be doing some tests, a lot of them the same tests done with the Colts and Daniel Defense rifles you've seen videos of already.

It just needs to be understood what the purpose and use of this platform is. I don't know a lot of guys that do too much bayonetting as part of their once a month range work (the type of guy that will be buying one of these)....BUT....we'll definetly get this thing out there and see what it can handle.

henschman
December 5, 2011, 12:04 PM
Lab tests only carry so much water with me. About the only test that would really convince me is running it in high round count carbine classes. I think that is about as close as it gets to approximating the kind of treatment it would get in a combat situation. Send some of your employees to some classes with them and document how they hold up.

Also, if you're wanting to sell complete lowers including a stock, I would consider making the buttstock optional, or offer them with other buttstocks that you sell. Lots of guys have a personal preference on what type of stock they want, so it would offer better value if you could order it with what you want instead of having to swap parts out as soon as you open the box. So along with the regular CAR-15 stock, maybe offer it with a Magpul CTR, Vltor Emod, LMT SOPMOD, etc.

DCoke
December 5, 2011, 12:14 PM
Cryogenically freeze them, then put them through the firing test, the drop test, and any other test you'd like to try. This would prove beyond a shadow of doubt (or not) that even in the most extreme case of cold it would (or would not) affect it.

ErikO
December 5, 2011, 12:53 PM
I'm on board with samples sent to individuals for evaluation, especially if I'm on that list. ;)

Bovice
December 5, 2011, 01:42 PM
field testing should be done to back up lab findings. making a design solely by field testing is a stupid and expensive way to do things.

but it's not my money so go ahead.

kimura
December 5, 2011, 02:36 PM
I have to agree with Mistwolf on this. Give it to LAV and let him torture test it. Also, while I see you're saying rifle in the $600 price range, PSA is already doing this with standard AR parts, actually with what looks to be good AR parts. What are you offering that they're not? The design and materials they're using is proven. Please explain why you believe the customer would go with a polymer lower, which is unproven in an AR, vs what PSA is offering.

NewFrontierArmory
December 5, 2011, 02:47 PM
Posted by Bovice: field testing should be done to back up lab findings. making a design solely by field testing is a stupid and expensive way to do things.

but it's not my money so go ahead.

What makes you think we haven't done research and lab testing on them before we would put them out to market? Extensive testing has been done to know that the product is safe and functions under normal conditions properly, but again, as I've stated a few times in this thread, people want to see some physical field tests that they can understand better than lab numbers and materials strenght, etc. That was what we were looking for input about.

I think we've gotten a lot of great ideas, and I will roll out some videos very soon as we get closer to releasing the product to our distributors and dealers.

NewFrontierArmory
December 5, 2011, 02:50 PM
Posted by Kimura: I have to agree with Mistwolf on this. Give it to LAV and let him torture test it. Also, while I see you're saying rifle in the $600 price range, PSA is already doing this with standard AR parts, actually with what looks to be good AR parts. What are you offering that they're not? The design and materials they're using is proven. Please explain why you believe the customer would go with a polymer lower, which is unproven in an AR, vs what PSA is offering.

Lighter overall rifle, with a match grade stainless steel bbl with 3 groove polygonal rifling, a rear sight (PSA claims "ready to shoot" but ours will be for the people that are ready to shoot AND aim at a target!) ;)

We're not trying to compete with or replace anything out there, just offering an alternative.

~Abstract~
December 5, 2011, 03:01 PM
Why not start with the .308?

If you can get that safe and reliable...you just proved yourself to the 5.56 crowd.

shootr
December 5, 2011, 04:02 PM
NFA -

I read all these posts and "good on ya!"

Great to see mfgrs thinking out of the box. I think your product and price point are attractive and I like the idea of polymer + steel inserts. Given the overwhelming acceptance of polymer pistols - I see no reason why this won't be well received. Also - the newer tactical rifles - SCAR, etc., are using polymer - so why not use for more widespreada use with ARs?

The test ideas seem to be covered, though in some cases perhaps extreme. I'll only add that I noticed a Cav Arms II I handled lacked captured pins and the pins had to be knocked out / driven in. Couldn't push them through with your finger. Maybe a small deal, but I think captured pins are very nice thing to have.

NewFrontierArmory
December 5, 2011, 05:56 PM
Thank You! And yes, our lower does have captured pins. Everything is the same as a standard mil spec LPK (and can be swapped out with one) except the trigger guard.

USAF_Vet
December 5, 2011, 06:29 PM
...if you're wanting to sell complete lowers including a stock, I would consider making the buttstock optional, or offer them with other buttstocks that you sell. Lots of guys have a personal preference on what type of stock they want, so it would offer better value if you could order it with what you want instead of having to swap parts out as soon as you open the box. So along with the regular CAR-15 stock, maybe offer it with a Magpul CTR, Vltor Emod, LMT SOPMOD, etc.
I like Henschmans idea on the stocks. Offering a lower without a stock for the AR pistol crowd would be an option to consider, with or without buffer tube.

The Kel-tec PLR-16 is a polymer AR type pistol without the butt stock (which is a look I actually prefer versus the buffer tube).

Considering the ATF's latest opinion on Pistols converted to rifles converted back to pistols, an AR pistol is even more desirable in my eyes.

NewFrontierArmory
December 5, 2011, 08:18 PM
There will be a pistol model available at launch with tube.

Another company made (what I think) is a mistake by putting their product out in kit or incomplete form. What was happening was people were not assembling them correctly which was causing malfunctions later on. When this happens it reflects poorly on the mfg, even though they weren't the ones assembling the lower.

We've chose to put them out complete in either a pistol or a rifle stock form. We will be offering other variations of stocks as well.

Baldman
December 6, 2011, 09:15 AM
Since I'm returning to shooting after a long absence and the fact that when I did shoot, the AR platform was only a dream to civilians this may be a naive response, so here goes. If the product is as advertised it's a pretty big win for me. I can combine the polymer lower to any milspec upper and have an AR platform for a little more then what a lever gun would cost me. It's also a plus as a lighter overall rifle will be easier for my wife to handle as well. I don't plan of shooting 3 gun or putting 1,000's of rounds through it every year but to me it would be a great tool to get comfortable with the platform and get more proficient with it. Based on what I've read on the forum where some folks have multiple high dollar AR's to me this is almost a no brainer, I'd love to try this out.

NewFrontierArmory
December 6, 2011, 01:23 PM
You are precisely the customer base we are looking to serve. Keep your eyes open for our product next month!

bomberbill357
December 8, 2011, 03:12 PM
i've been trying to buy a lower from these guys for two weeks now. The price started out at $99, then 139 and now my FFL is telling me it's over $159 and that's dealer pricing. What gives? Their website says $139, dealer pricing list says $159, HUH?! Don't dealers get a price break?! Seems they don't know the listed price on their website and magazine adverts. Hmm...spider scents are tingling.....

NewFrontierArmory
December 9, 2011, 01:23 PM
You must be talking about a plumcrazy lower, because our lowers haven't been released yet.

They will be out in mid January, and they will be $99.99 for a complete lower.

We sell plumcrazy's on our website for $129.99 right now, not sure where your dealer is coming up with the other price.

When our lowers are released, they will be sold to a small network of dealers at prices set so all of the dealers can sell them for $99.99.

I hope this answers your questions.

Dr.Rob
December 9, 2011, 01:58 PM
Will you have a stocking dealer in Colorado?

DUNEZRUNNER
December 9, 2011, 02:31 PM
How are these new lowers going to compare to the Plum Crazy lowers? Once your lower comes out will you continue to offer the Plum Crazy lowers?

Thanks

Thomas

NewFrontierArmory
December 10, 2011, 02:25 AM
Dr Rob, we have about 15 dealers out of 25 already set up, but none in Colorado yet.

DUNEZRUNNNER, Our lower will be similar to the plumcrazy but it will be made of a slightly different material and higher quality components.

And of course it will have a better price tag for the consumer, and a much better dealer program.

Like the majority of dealers that carry plum crazy lowers now, we will be discontinuing them in January once the new and improved models are out. I can't see carrying a lesser product at a higher price.

JShirley
December 10, 2011, 05:10 AM
Hey, I won't be back in the country for about a year.

But a friend and I plan on taking the vet's carbine class at Gunsite in summer, 2013. I've already got a 5.45x39mm S&W upper for her, but no lower. I'd love to take a $100 lower and give it a thorough wringing out there. (It'd be nice to have a backup lower, too.)

John

NewFrontierArmory
December 10, 2011, 12:35 PM
Give us a shout when you get back and I'm sure we can work something out!

Al Thompson
December 10, 2011, 07:18 PM
NFA, sounds very interesting. My nephew is disabled and building him a featherweight AR is on my list of things to do. I'll pick one of those lowers up when available. Put an upper on with a pencil barrel and I'd think we could get below 7 pounds. :cool:

amd6547
December 11, 2011, 03:36 PM
I am in the market for a lower myself.
I built an AR15 A1 clone a couple years ago. Then I picked up another complete shorty upper, used like new, for cheap. Picked up a second bolt group.
I was swapping uppers and butt stocks, but I basically have enough parts for a complete second rifle now, minus a lower and FCG....
Really, I have no philosophical objection whatsoever to a polymer lower, knowing what the role of the lower is on an AR. I think it might even be an advance. Stoner himself might have used it if it had been available.
But then, I do like Glocks!

sugarmaker
December 11, 2011, 04:39 PM
Well... I have a 15-22, which is a mini-ar made more or less entirely of polymer. So far so good. Some questions for a real ar:

Can it stand having a wedge installed between upper and lower (stress / wear over many takedowns)?
Do the takedown pins / trigger group pins loosen more rapidly than the 7075 lowers?
Is it solvent sensitive? Brake cleaner etc...
Does it hold up with high power shooting? A tight sling?
Cold resistance?
Wear surface durability
Shock resistance (e.g dropped etc.) not that that's common.
mag insertions / removals, with s/s mags (cproducts)
How many rounds before it falls out of spec on some area

I'm pretty much without prejudice based on the so far positive experience with the 1522. If it falls a little short in some areas OK as long as it is superior in some others...the usual tradeoff is to be expected.

BigBoreFan
December 11, 2011, 11:19 PM
A few other particulars:

I believe we're up to #5 on the types of consumers who have an opinion about polymer lowers
5. Wanted to buy a Cav Arms lower, but procrastinated thinking they'd come back after the ATF nonsense and never bought one.
Thats me. I also want to know if the new platform lends itself to a pistol caliber conversion with the mag block/release for sten or grease gun magazines? That was the real appeal for me to the Cav Arms lower. I was not a fan of the carbon 15, but the two cav arms rifles I got to shoot (a .223 and a .45 acp) were the cats meow. You meet the price point your pushing and be able to meet all caliber requirements you'll have a winning product.
I look forward to the promotional blitz in the next month.

Mot45acp
December 12, 2011, 12:30 AM
I do part time at gun store/indoor range. If you want to loan one out, andwe could put one in the rental case. And keep track of round count etc. I could run it by the owner and see what he thinks. Shoot me a pm if interested. We would return it of course for inspection and what not.

bomberbill357
December 12, 2011, 09:59 AM
BTW, I mistook this post for another company. They are up front and everything New Frontier Armory has posted is correct. I am in point of fact an internet idiot.

NewFrontierArmory
December 19, 2011, 11:13 PM
Mot45ACP, that might be an option! Let me know what he thinks when you speak with him.

Dr.Rob
December 20, 2011, 08:32 PM
If you are going to be at SHOT, THR is sending a sizebale contingent for day to day coverage.

NewFrontierArmory
December 21, 2011, 03:23 PM
I will be there with one in hand for sure!

I got your PM, As soon as we're ready to shoot some out I'll put up the info and get back with you. Still doing some last minute testing / changing of some internal parts.

We want to make sure it goes out at 100% even if it takes a bit longer to do.

trickyasafox
December 21, 2011, 04:39 PM
If you have a dealer in CNY or WNY, let me know. I'd pay 100 bucks to try a new lower. I want to build a 300 AAC blackout and this would be a good reason.

Strykervet
December 21, 2011, 04:54 PM
I offered to test this guy's stuff and never heard back from him; I have quite a bit of experience doing stuff like that and am an AR junkie. I offered to do a very fair and complete review and write it up and share with him and on here. I have an open mind about this part, and I understand it isn't a match component or military grade component, so the evaluation would have been done in the light of this. Testing it as a range rifle and plinker against a mil spec M4 and using the selfsame M4 upper for both lowers. How does it group, trigger pull, feel, etc. Not as a combat rifle (though I offered it to show him the breaking point for academic purposes).

Now, looking back at the posts that this fellow has written since (I contacted him shortly after he posted and assumed by the title he wanted testers) it kind of appears that this thread is not "help us test..." rather, "buy our stuff". It is an advertisement. So when reading this and gathering information about these products, just bear this in mind. And he isn't the first, Next Generation was peddling wares on here a while back too.

NewFrontierArmory
December 22, 2011, 11:54 AM
Strykervet, please go back and read post #95.

I did respond to you. This post was about what people wanted to see done as tests on these guns, not to ask people to test them for us. They're not at the point of handing over to a customer (no matter how qualified you are) to do your own tests.

That's twice that I've responded directly to you and explained the situation to you, so please don't say I ignored you.

I really would like you to do a range test on it, and I was very impressed by your PM, they're just not at the point of putting them in anyones hands until we test them and deem them safe. I hope that makes sense.

And I'm not on here trying to sell them, because they're not for sale yet either.

I'm working with the mods right now to become an advertiser, and then, when they are ready, I will be posting trying to sell them here! :D

Seriously though, there are 3 people I pulled form this thread to send a sample out to in Jan, and you're one of them. I hope there's no hard feelings if you missed a post or two in there or misread anything I've said.

Thanks for your interest!

Armed012002
December 23, 2011, 12:02 AM
Can you give more information about the parts in the complete lower?

Such as which parts are polymer, which are aluminum, which are steel, etc.

Trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector, pins, magazine catch, bolt catch, receiver extension/buffer tube, etc.

Who makes the small parts if you're not making them?

bomberbill357
December 23, 2011, 01:57 PM
I didn't read the whole thread but if you guys will be at the Shot Show, I'll look you up and we can talk. Very interested indeed.

Agent Tikki
December 23, 2011, 02:25 PM
The round count test is a good start, how about dropping it into sandy and between every mag. How about 10k rounds int 130 degree heat and 10k in sub zero temperatures?

Would like to see a machine slap the bolt release 100k times and see if there any wear around the pins and the pocket. Then make the machine slap the magzine release 100k times, and see if there's any wear. Then make it flick the safety 100k times and see if there's any wear.


I'd like to see a dummy, full weight solid upper and a solid magazine and a collapseable stock with a real buffer tube put on it and
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the stock until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the magazine until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concrete from 6 feet on the barrel until it cracks.
watch it dropped onto concreet from 6 feet on either side until it cracks.

I'd like to see where it breaks, and how many drops it takes. If it doesn't break in 100 drops, call it a day.

Since you are producing it. I like for you to make sure a magazine locking deviced such as a Radlock (bullet button) will work on it (Kommiefornia strikes again). A flared magwell, and a provision for a tensioner screw to ensure a tightfit to any upper.

If you don't have a machine, I'd be more than happy to slap and flick a few dozen of them for you as a tester! :D In all seriousness, if you can provide a hassle free lifetime warranty, that would put away any silence any doubters.

StMichael
December 25, 2011, 03:28 PM
Do you have a dealer/distributor in PA yet? If not, I'd like to recruit one of our local FFLs in west central PA.

NewFrontierArmory
December 27, 2011, 11:44 PM
You can have the dealer you have in mind contact us by e-mail at sales@newfrontierarmory.com and we'll get him out a dealer packet.

We put a hack job edit of one of the videos up on our facebook page. We should have the real videos and pics up sometime next week after a little more tweaking.

"Like" the page to keep updated.

This video shows 75K cycles of the fire control group and we still had positive engagement of the hammer/trigger.

www.facebook.com/nfalw15

NewFrontierArmory
December 29, 2011, 01:25 PM
Okay, the second test of the series is up. We crush the magwell with a ram 20 thousandths more than an aluminum receiver and the alum receiver barely takes a mag, bust a pivot pin, and won't drop the mag.

The LW-15 polymer lower bounces back to shape, no cracking, easily accepts a mag, then drops free.

Here are the first two tests if you guys would like to watch them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaFevpTka-I&context=C31785e2ADOEgsToPDskI5bsw6ZsY8WrBuya4S1BmB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qpnmi3XPP8&context=C3cd6ca5ADOEgsToPDskJxECecajddHLu0sL2ni2qy

Gtscotty
December 29, 2011, 04:21 PM
Interesting tests, I may have to pick up one of these lowers when you get them on to the market. I really hope your company follows through on your AR-10 lower project, the market (and I) could really use a good lower cost AR-10 option!

Agent Tikki
December 29, 2011, 04:23 PM
+1 on what GTScotty said!

NFA: I might have missed it but, what price are you planning on selling these for?

NewFrontierArmory
December 29, 2011, 04:46 PM
Comlpete Lowers with stock, pistol grip and LPK installed (all US made big name brand parts) for $99

Complete rifles with a Black Hole Weaponry 16" M4 MATCH GRADE bbl with 3 groove polygonal rifling, YHM front flip sight, MAGPUL MBUS rear flip sight, MAGPUL MOE handguard, 30 rd MAGPUL PMAG and a Hard Case for $599

USAF_Vet
December 29, 2011, 06:23 PM
Wow, I'm impressed with the torture testing. I'm very surprised the poly didn't crack during the crush test. That pretty much sold me on durability. And the complete rifle price point is very tempting.

Spencer Stewart
December 30, 2011, 10:16 PM
Hello NFA.

Spencer here. I've been quietly searching anything and everything I can on this forum and others regarding info about AR-15s. I've been really close to purchasing a Keltec su-16 several times but am resistant. I really like what I see in the AR platform ...ergo's, time-tested performance, huge aftermarket, and make-it-your-own-ability.

The one thing I haven't found yet was a polymer lower until this thread. Here I found out about your project as well as the Plum Crazy offering. Either one seems to make sense to someone like me. I'm looking for a lightweight AR style carbine that is very reliable with moderate use and will not be a burden to carry.

I have no experience with which to build a prejudice and have no extreme tests to subject a firearm to. I simply would like to find an AR that I like to fire, don't mind carrying, and my wife would enjoy shooting.

All my knowledge of an AR is Read-only. I have *zero* hands on experience.

Do I qualify!? :>)

Spencer

NewFrontierArmory
December 31, 2011, 12:38 AM
Spencer, you are our exact target customer, I couldn't describe that title better myself.

Is there better products out there? Yes, for different applications. We're not trying to take over the AR market or get the next big military contract, we're just offering something different where people like you can get into an AR for $599 or less and go out and have good safe shooting fun with it.

Keep your eyes out towards late Jan when the product hits the market running. We already have over 2K units allotted to our dealer network, so they may pop up in a gun store near you soon!

StMichael
January 1, 2012, 09:08 PM
Every time there is an internet forum discussion of polymer AR lowers, someone posts a photo of a notorious PCF lower failure that has been copied and pasted all over the web. The original posting of that failure explains that the owner of that lower used a CAR/M4 buffer in a rifle-length tube, allowing the carrier to go back so far the carrier key impacted the receiver where the buffer attaches. Apparently this mistake can also cause an aluminum AR lower to fail.

If you want to put to rest the Number One argument against polymer lowers, you have to find a way to clarify for your buyers and the general gun buying (and debating) public the most common causes of polymer AR lower failures in the past, and why/how yours are different.

(Of course, if you could take an LW-15 lower and an aluminum lower, use a CAR/M4 buffer in a rifle-length tube on each, and see at what point each fails, and post the results, you would permanently debunk that PCF "failure" photo.)

NewFrontierArmory
January 2, 2012, 01:04 AM
Michael, thanks for the input.

We definitely need to do some type of proof test on the rear of the receiver, we're just trying to come up with somethings that's fair and measurable that we can put out.

Of course anything can break when used wrong or beat on, no matter what its made of. We're not saying this thing can't break, we're saying that it won't break any faster than anything else on the market.

When a new aluminum lower hits the market you never hear anyone say that the company should drop it off a building, or hit it with a hammer, or run it over with a tank, but we knew we'd see this going into it.

I think our product will prove itself, and with the next few videos we put out will gain the trust of more consumers.

Good point on the feedback from the PC's too. You always "hear" about the friend of a friend who broke one, but we've sold thousands of them and they have a lifetime warranty, so I'd imagine I would have seen a broken one by now, but we haven't.

Brian Williams
January 2, 2012, 02:53 AM
My question to you is; Why are you making a lightweight composite lower?
I think that you are looking for light weight, so make a rifle and/or upper to go with it, get a slick side flattop upper with a light weight 16" barrel and put the lightest weight tube fore end and front gas block on it with an ace tube stock.

I want a gun that I can take to the range and have fun with yet not have a ton of weight to carry around. I bet you could get below 5.5lbs with a plastic mag.

NewFrontierArmory
January 2, 2012, 03:32 AM
We are doing that. We're starting with a $599 light weight rifle with match bbl and then we'll offer more variations as we go

StMichael
January 3, 2012, 01:20 AM
I think our product will prove itself, and with the next few videos we put out will gain the trust of more consumers.

Good point on the feedback from the PC's too.

Sounds good.

At a minimum, do a video comparing the construction/molding/composition of the LW-15 compared to the Professional Ordnance Carbon 15, Vulcan V15, PCF C-15, etc. polymer lowers, pointing out the improvements you've made over previous attempts at polymer lowers to prevent the most common known causes of polymer lower failures. (The LW-15 is not related to the Vulcan V15, right?)

That to me is the most important piece of info I need to finally take the plunge on a polymer lower. I want to see how you learned from previous generations of polymer lowers' mistakes and what parts of the lower mold or materials were changed/beefed up to solve known issues.

And then I'll buy a half dozen ;-)

NewFrontierArmory
January 3, 2012, 07:04 PM
Its a similiar look to the C-15, but a stronger blend of material for the application. We worked with a few different things to find the actual problems they were having, not the preceived problems that no one could make a fact out of.

90% of the problems were from poor parts / poor assembly and QA.

We've used higher quality (ALL American Made) parts and changed the material used to make some of the polymer FCG parts that were causing issues, mainly the takedown and pivot detents letting the pins slide out.

We've also put an assembly process into place that takes a lot of the mistakes out of the previous rushed assembly.

Baldman
January 4, 2012, 08:44 AM
I have watched the videos and am looking forward to more news on the complete system. Looks like a very good price to get started on the AR frame.

Yellow Box
January 4, 2012, 06:38 PM
Ive had this ever since it was available to buy

of course im no soldier but its lasted
within the last few years ive switched to shooting 22lr out of it only because its cheaper for me to do so
but its so much lighter compared to a metal ar

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o56/mikegigabyte/Bushmaster/bush3.jpg

Baldman
January 5, 2012, 11:02 AM
Yellow Box, not to bee dim but what is it? It looks like a polymer lower but can you specify what type, etc? Thanks.

Fred_G
January 5, 2012, 11:15 AM
Looks like one of these Baldman http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_carbon15_index.asp

Huh, learn something new everyday. Had no idea Bushmaster made tupperware lowers.

Baldman
January 5, 2012, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the info Fred G.

ns66
January 5, 2012, 01:37 PM
I am looking to buy a superlight ar-15, around 5lb without mag, I am all for new technology and carbon fiber/polymer, I believe we human can/should advance technology in 30 years. I am very interested in Bushmaster SuperLight Carbine with Red Dot, but if your company can make similar ar-15 with good quality I would buy it

thanks for the effort and courage

mastiffhound
January 5, 2012, 04:18 PM
Put a .50 BMG upper on it and fire 500 rounds, if it will hold up to that I'm sold. Add some 32 degree weather and I'm first in line!

Yellow Box
January 6, 2012, 10:28 AM
Yellow Box, not to bee dim but what is it? It looks like a polymer lower but can you specify what type, etc? Thanks.
Yes its a carbon 15 but a newer version compared to the original. I think the originals were either made by another company when bushmaster bought them and had issues with them breaking. Cant remember too long ago.
I think ive had mine for at least 9 years maybe more.

But ive also seen an even newer version couple years ago too
My upper is also the same material. On the newer ones I saw they now have the cover and forward assist which mine is missing

ns66
January 6, 2012, 11:09 AM
in another thread some people mentioned carbon/polymer doesn't hold threads very well compared to aluminum, it sounds to be a valid concern, some tests about that will sure help.

NewFrontierArmory
January 6, 2012, 04:12 PM
The problem with the threads (at least what I've seen from selling thousands of them) is that people cross thread the buffer tube into the receiever on an angle, and then the bolt wacks the hell out of the buffer tube because its not in line and wipes it out the back of the receiver.

We should have these out on 25 January at the latest, and we might take pre-orders the week before, or at least pre-orders to the dealers we have lined up.

We have more videos being put out right now shooting a .50 BMG upper on them, and a 450 bushmaster for those that were worried about shooting the pesky 5.56 cartridge! ;-)

We have a solid MATCH rifle built out of this also for $599 retail with a hardscase, PMAG, and some MAGPUL and YHM extras. It weighs in at 6lbs, which is light, but we'll also be putting out something soon with a carbon fiber tube and a lightweight bbl to get us under 6lbs.

ns66
January 7, 2012, 11:38 AM
if people go with relatively uncertain carbon/polymer, they will expect a lot on the weight savings, otherwise why bother? there are way too many choices with top quality at 6lbs, for your potential buyers, i think a lightweight/pencil bbl total weight around 5lb will get much more attention, i think Bushmaster SuperLight Carbine with Red Dot gets it right (except unsure about the quality), hope you guys can get something out asap

NewFrontierArmory
January 7, 2012, 08:55 PM
I can put something out much lighter, but at the moment, I haven't been impressed with the polymer uppers, and I don't want to sacrifice in bbl quality either.

We're working on something to break down to the 5lb mark, it just won't be out at first.

NewFrontierArmory
January 7, 2012, 09:00 PM
Also, I think for $599 retail for a 6lb rifle with the quality of parts (match bbl, MAGPUL, YHM, etc) and a mag and hard case, I don't see what's out there to compete with at that price range.

ns66
January 7, 2012, 10:01 PM
i think most hard core ar-15 folks who really shoot a lot have aluminum ar-15 from top makers already and they are the most conservative and difficult to convert type, i doubt they are your best targeted buyers, only they may want heavy barrel. your best targeted buyers are new ar-15 users who are more open minded and who do not usually shoot a lot, light barrel will be perfect for them, lighter and cheaper, thicker barrel really only adds to the weight/cost and nothing else for them. your best advantages are price and weight, your price point is attractive, but S&W sport is cheap too, you need to add the weight advantage to win the battle, you need to bring everything out imho to counter your weak point which is your product is carbon and unproven. in my view the first product you bring out you need to get everything right get all the advantages out and make a splash to be successful.

anway just my 2c and hope to see your product soon

ns66
January 7, 2012, 10:50 PM
if you sell 6+lb you are competing with all the well established ar-15 makers out there, and your carbon advantage adds nothing to the battle. if you sell 5lb you automatically eliminated all but bushmaster, if your product is better quality than bush you win :D

alemonkey
January 8, 2012, 10:29 AM
To me the weight advantage is the main thing here. The complete polymer lower wins on price too, but I'm willing to pay more for a good aluminum lower for most of my builds. But, if I'm building a super lightweight lower, like for a kid, the polymer lower is a winner. I'm interested to see if there will be any dealers in Nebraska. If so I would pick one up for a .22 build.

JShirley
January 8, 2012, 11:13 AM
It would be great to see a heavier barrel SPR-type rifle (with maybe an 18-19" barrel) that weighs no more than typical M4-style AR carbines weigh now. 3-gun, here I come...

ns66
January 8, 2012, 12:57 PM
Bushmaster SuperLight Carbine with Red Dot is very attractive, at $600+ including a red dot, carbon 5.1lbs, it sells like hotcakes, all seems to be sold out online or local, the only question for me is the durability and some people think bushmaster is not as good as top makers, that's a data point for you to consider

NewFrontierArmory
January 9, 2012, 01:46 AM
We just put a third video up on our Youtube channel and the LW-15 facebook page (www.facebook.com/NFALW15)

Check it out!

Baldman
January 10, 2012, 04:35 PM
Keep the videos coming, I'm getting more and more intrigued. SO far cost seems to be very good based on the package put together and the product is showing durability.

Fred_G
January 10, 2012, 08:16 PM
I have to say, I like your testing. Some real world testing is good.

NewFrontierArmory
January 12, 2012, 02:02 AM
WWW.LW15.COM IS LIVE!!

The website is up for our new polymer lower! Our designer did an awesome job to get everything together. Please spend a few minutes and check it out. Any dealers that are intrested in carrying the products, fill out the dealer app on the website and we'll get you out a dealer packet via e-mail.

We're shooting for a release date of 25 January, with a possible pre-sell date one week out.

Baldman
January 12, 2012, 10:58 AM
If the posted pictures show the complete rifle configuration it looks great. How about adding some pictures of the $599 deal including the hard case when you get a chance. Now all I need to do is find the $.

NewFrontierArmory
January 13, 2012, 01:48 AM
We'll have some more out soon. Let me know if you have any questions about the specs.

Also, if you guys would like to see anything else done for our video's that we haven't yet, please let me know and I'll try to get it into the next range day.

ns66
January 13, 2012, 11:36 AM
total weight of your completed rifles?

hope you get a complete rifle with lw-15 lower and pencil barrel soon

NewFrontierArmory
January 13, 2012, 02:21 PM
Currently 6 lbs. It will be under 5 when we put them out with pencil bbls.

mgregg85
January 15, 2012, 12:56 PM
I'm interested in the polymer lowers but what really worries me is weakness where the buffer tube screws in to the receiver.

Rest the complete rifle between two supports with the receiver in the middle unsupported and then start hanging some weight on the center. Do it side by side with a metal lower receiver rifle to show us that it will hold up.

NewFrontierArmory
January 18, 2012, 01:43 AM
How much weight would you like to see hung from it?

Fred_G
January 18, 2012, 01:47 AM
How much weight would you like to see hung from it?
LOL, you have almost convinced me to rethink the polymar. I just don't need another lower right now.

mgregg85
January 18, 2012, 10:01 PM
You're selling me on confidence alone. I guess I don't know how much a metal lower would be able to take, why not 50 pounds?

Thanks for taking the time to address our concerns.

NewFrontierArmory
January 24, 2012, 01:21 PM
We'll knock that out for you ASAP. We're swamped trying to keep up on orders and production right now, but as soon as we catch up getting everyones orders shipped out we'll make the weight test for you!

tp1l
January 24, 2012, 05:25 PM
I don't have any new ideas for a test (the ones you've done so far have sold me on the idea, but what is really live to see with this lower is a polymer featherweight .22 LR lower.

Weight is the main thing holding me back from dedicated .22 AR until my kids are much older, so if you could get something in the 4.5 lb range in that caliber I think you'd have a real winner.

I'll probably pick up one of your lowers anyway, just to have around, but that would pretty much guarantee another sale.

NewFrontierArmory
January 27, 2012, 06:37 PM
They definetly make a great match with a .22 Upper when it comes to the weight, thats for sure.

robmints
January 28, 2012, 01:27 PM
NFA,
Do you have a list of dealers and stocking dealers? The internet lower thing is a tough deal around here. $30-$75 premium for ffl transfer plus shipping for most of us. Doesn't make much sense to maybe double the price of a $99 lower. South Central PA or Central MD. Thanks.

Girodin
January 28, 2012, 02:31 PM
$30-$75 premium for ffl transfer plus shipping for most of us.

$75 are you kidding? I pay $10. Have you tried any pawn shops?

robmints
January 28, 2012, 09:24 PM
Closest guy is $75. Double secret discount 45min - hour away is a club member and charges $30 Might just go with a couple strippers as part of a group buy with a local club.

But I would still buy a NewFreedomArmory lower IF I could find one. If I can't buy one local there is not much point. Even if they had a dealer network that would take orders and order 5-10 at a time when the dealer had a group together.

NewFrontierArmory
January 28, 2012, 10:44 PM
You can put a group buy together for 10 and e-mail the store and we'll hook you up. OR you can have your local dealer fill out the dealer app at www.LW15.com and we'll send him out a price list and maybe he would be interested in doing the buy in.

RobGR
January 28, 2012, 10:59 PM
$75 are you kidding? I pay $10. Have you tried any pawn shops?

In Southern California it's $75-$100 with DROS (usually $30) and we have to pay tax now, even if it's purchased and shipped from another state. I just picked up an FNP 9 and had it shipped to my local FFL, $75 for FFL transfer fee and DROS, most expensive I found was $100... obviously didn't go that route. A few stores here refuse transfers for ARs or AKs.

So, for this lower that I'd love to try, it'll end up costing me $175 before tax and shipping. Nuts!

RobGR
January 28, 2012, 11:02 PM
I got my SGL 31 over a year ago from NFA actually. Shipped to my FFL without issue.

Dr.Rob
January 30, 2012, 05:15 PM
Made an inquiry with my local dealer today. ;)

Took me several tries to get a dealer that would handle the transfer, but I made my purchase today! Hopefully I'll have one of your lowers in my hands very soon.

RobGR
February 2, 2012, 11:42 PM
Actually, looks like a local shop is carrying them in San Diego, Parallax Tactical, so no $75-$100 transfer fee (includes $25-$30 for DROS). Zing!

ErikO
February 3, 2012, 10:48 AM
I'm willing to wait a bit to see what you guys think about your lowers.

This does sound promising.

Tim the student
February 3, 2012, 11:33 AM
I'm willing to wait a bit to see what you guys think about your lowers.

This does sound promising.

Pretty much how I feel too. I'm interested now, but I may be a lot more interested after reading some reviews by THR posters.

Dr.Rob
February 4, 2012, 06:08 PM
I should have mine within the week, I'll be sure to give it a go with my CMMG .22LR upper and the top half of my Colt 6920.

shootniron
February 5, 2012, 05:48 PM
It also seems pretty trollish.

Oh my, do the trolls have websites now?

New Frontier Armory, LLC
North Las Vegas, NV
www.newfrontierarmory.com

Dr.Rob
February 8, 2012, 06:23 PM
Picking mine up tomorrow.

bomberbill357
March 13, 2012, 02:23 PM
Should have two of your lowers next week. Took awhile to get my FFL to stock them but he was sold on the UTUBE testing and the price.

Dr.Rob
March 13, 2012, 02:46 PM
I have a match coming up SUNDAY 3/18 and will be trying out the lower on my Colt 6920 upper. Usually 2-300 rounds in 3 or 4 stages.

Lonerider357
March 13, 2012, 04:29 PM
I'll have mine very soon!!!

crracer_712
March 13, 2012, 05:31 PM
I have one coming from Joebob. Putting a DPMS oracle light weight barrel upper on it for a light weight rifle.

Panzercat
March 13, 2012, 06:19 PM
Next time skip the diatribe looking to minimize ridicule and just give the lowers to people to shoot. Results speak for themselves. Hell, even hi-point is almost accepted around here these days and if you're lucky, a 30-30 can reach out past 100 yards.

Likewise, you're manufacturing these things and can't find a better test group than a forum whose bias you fear so much you have to load up the first post to marginalize it? The phrase 'poisoning the well' comes to mind.

newbuckeye
March 13, 2012, 06:50 PM
How long till you have more complete rifles or assembled uppers in stock?

bomberbill357
April 26, 2012, 09:01 AM
Got my lower(s) last week. Just some observations:
The take down pins seem to be oversized, since they're polymer I sanded them a little so they work a little smoother.
Every upper I've tried them with has been an incrediably tight fit. To the point I had to wack them to open them.
Lastly, the buffer tubes are commercial diameter, not a big deal unless you dropped money for a milspec Magpul replacement staock.
Now for the good news, they work like a champ. I used both a lightweight 14.5 and a heavy 16" upper and they both ran like w/o a hitch. I like the lightweight. Triggers are good. Internal components are quality.
I feel like a got quite a deal. Thanks for putting your offer on the High Road.
I only put about a hundred rounds thru rifles with the lower. As soon as I get a dedicated upper for one of them, I'll burn a thousand rounds and see how it goes.

ErikO
April 26, 2012, 03:41 PM
I plan on my 2nd build being a poly pistol build. Should be VERY light weight. :)

Beentown
April 26, 2012, 04:52 PM
Dr. Rob how did the lower treat you?

Dr.Rob
April 26, 2012, 07:12 PM
I'm happy with it so far. There are some quirks but I think it was $100 well spent.

You can read my full review here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=642562&highlight=new+frontier

mookiie
April 26, 2012, 07:32 PM
Maybe I am missing something but can't you get an AR lower for 90 bucks that is made of the standard materials, what advantages have been found to be offered from a polymer lower?

TurtlePhish
April 26, 2012, 07:42 PM
Maybe I am missing something but can't you get an AR lower for 90 bucks that is made of the standard materials, what advantages have been found to be offered from a polymer lower?


For $90, this gets you a complete lower. Stock, all internals, etc.

crracer_712
April 27, 2012, 09:01 AM
Got my lower(s) last week. Just some observations:
The take down pins seem to be oversized, since they're polymer I sanded them a little so they work a little smoother.
Every upper I've tried them with has been an incrediably tight fit. To the point I had to wack them to open them.


The take down pins free up in little time on their own, as do the upper to lower fitment. Probably the first two or three times Shooting, and breaking down for cleaning is all it took for the pins to be able to be pushed out my normal methods, same with tilting the upper from the lower.

For those that don't know, these were initially offered in complete lowers only. Now they are offered as a stripped lower for about 45 bucks, at least from joeboboutfitters.com, also now with lower only plus parts kit installed (no buffer tube) for 65 bucks.

bomberbill357
June 21, 2012, 03:21 PM
Well, now I've done an extreme heat test. Temperatures in the high 90's with extra humidity and 500 rds. The lower has about 800 rds of m193 ball thru it + it sat in the back of my stiffling hot jeep for 3 hours. No problems, no warpages. So far it looks like the best $99 I've spent.

meanmrmustard
June 21, 2012, 07:55 PM
The op sure sounded like it was meant to be offensive and derogatory despite claim to the contrary. It also seems pretty trollish.

Are there any polymer lowers on the market besides plum crazy?

I don't think many people have an issue with a high quality polymer. I certainly hope someone builds one.

Lot of strawmen myths too. A significant percent of adult gun owners believe an AR lower made from the same material as a glock will crack or melt or deform or shatter? Really?

Please.

If your target market is the hobby/bumpfire crowd then carry on with the mag dumps. If you want to convince the shooters in the crowd that your lower is higher quality than the other polymer lower then take some classes with it. You might find that manipulating the weapon is where most of the malfunctions show up. Not doing mag dumps.
To add to this, anyone who took Chem 101 will remember that polymer doesn't melt, it crystallizes with extreme heat. So, in theory, if the lower deforms with crystallization, if it doesn't hinder the FCG, it'll sill run. In theory, remember.

Tim the student
June 22, 2012, 12:41 AM
Bomberbill, what are your thoughts on the trigger?

amd6547
June 22, 2012, 09:50 AM
I just ordered a New Frontier complete lower for $109 shipped.
I have a bushmaster "post ban" CAR HBAR upper I bought used for cheap...and a spare Colt BCG.
I also have an aluminum CAR stock and buffer tube. If I like the OEM New Frontier stock, I may sell my current CAR stock and tube, essentially making the New Frontier lower free!
Can't wait to give it a try...if it works out, I will have a complete AR carbine for about $375.

bomberbill357
June 22, 2012, 02:22 PM
Tim,

The trigger seems like a stock trigger. It never was gritty. It seemed about the same as the stock bushmaster I had. Breaks at about 6.5lbs is what I'm guessing. I really haven't noticed the reset. Next time out I'll pay more attention.
As I said earlier best $99 I spent it a long time. The second lower I'm turning into a Three Gun competitor so there will be an after market trigger installed.
As far as chemistry goes...never really paid attention to any of it other than the parts were it made things go BOOM!

Tim the student
June 22, 2012, 02:55 PM
Thanks bomber. It is tempting.

amd6547
June 24, 2012, 06:56 PM
I ordered my New Frontier Gen II complete lower from joeboboutfitters on Wednesday last week, and it was at my rifle club FFL Saturday.
Did the NICS today and picked it up, went directly to range.
My Bushmaster "post ban" CAR upper installed easily. No problem at all with the push pins pushing right in.
The polymer Accu trigger LPK seemed great. Nice crisp trigger pull, nice reset.
I put 110rounds through this set up today. 50rds Federal XM855, 20rds PMC Bronze 55gn, 20rds PRVI M193, and 20rds Guatamalan M193.
Not a single problem. This lower is GTG.
There were two other AR shooters at the range. One was the typical gear snob.
He came over before the range went hot to ask what I was shooting. When I told him it was my first time trying out a polymer lower with my bushy upper, you could see his nose wrinkle in disgust..."I only buy Rock River, Daniel Defense or Colt...everything else is junk"
He was shooting a 20" A2 of some kind with a Trijicon ACOG, off sandbags. I was shooting A1 iron sights with a 16" HBAR barrel, offhand, elbows on bench.
Couldn't resist peeking at his target through my cheap spotting scope....HMMMM....same group as me....

OhioChief
June 24, 2012, 07:08 PM
I didn't read all the responses, so if this was already stated, please disregard. I think there's a 4th category of individual (where I fall). It's the who cares category. I don't mean any disrespect by that comment!!! My feeling is, just to save a little weight, and a few dollars, why would I put myself through the effort of building or buying one of these, when I'm perfectly happy with all the proven choices I have now. And you already stated that it's not meant to replace the battlefield version. You compared it to the Glock. but the Glock is a pretty proven weapon. If this new lower isn't up to the standard of the long hard abuse of it's big brothers, what's the real advantage of having one? The weight difference and slightly lower cost isn't worth the effort. to me. thanks.

amd6547
June 24, 2012, 07:59 PM
Slightly lower cost?
$109 shipped is about the best deal going. In my case, that was the total cost, as my rifle club FFL is a membership benefit...no transfer fee or tax.
Looking back at what I paid for my upper, my complete New Frontier lowered AR cost about $350.
Given my experience today, I think I will be shooting this lower for a good long time.

Dr.Rob
June 24, 2012, 10:36 PM
Its a considerable savings in $ and weight, and as sold complete. Half of an AR for just over a hundred bucks sounded good enough to me to try one.

Seeing sometimes is beleiving. I'm thinking of a lightweight CAR upper for mine, that way I have a loaner AR as well as a .22 AR. Maybe it won't get shot 'as much' but it's going to get shot.

kozak6
June 25, 2012, 06:19 AM
This is pretty funny. After all this, what we end up with is a PCF lower with a slightly different texture and reportedly a different and slightly cheaper plastic blend.

Oh well.

amd6547
June 25, 2012, 06:55 PM
Here are a couple pics of my $350 polymer lowered AR:
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/DSC02203.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/DSC02204.jpg

I am not saying that I would choose this lower for my only AR, or that it is superior to forged aluminum, or ready for an extended tour in Afghanistan.
But for me, having another AR already with a forged lower and a Colt upper, and the second upper and bolt carrier group already...I went from one and a half AR's to two for a whopping $109. When I sell the aluminum CAR stock I already have, the New Generation lower will be largely free.
After shooting this set up, I would not think twice about using it for HD. It works.
Oh, and I must have missed where it is stated that it uses a cheaper plastic blend. All I have read is that it is a different and stronger blend.

Dr.Rob
June 26, 2012, 07:39 PM
That's exactly the kind of set up I envision for a 'spare' AR. Short range, lightweight no frills.

fatcat4620
June 26, 2012, 08:20 PM
Amd, I have to call you out on a $350 ar. Best I can see is 350 with no BCG, shipping, or transfer fees.

newbuckeye
June 26, 2012, 10:24 PM
Amd, I have to call you out on a $350 ar. Best I can see is 350 with no BCG, shipping, or transfer fees.

Great...another mind reader......:banghead:

GuidoTorpedo
June 27, 2012, 11:22 AM
Can you fit standard stocks on them (A1 or A2 style) instead of the collapsible?

amd6547
June 28, 2012, 07:27 AM
Sure. They sell this lower with an A2 stock and buffer tube, or you can buy just the lower and put on whatever buffer tube and stock you want.

mac66
June 28, 2012, 07:46 AM
Has anyone done any testing with these to determine how much flex they have? As an Appleseed instructor I have noticed that the S&W MP22 which has a plastic receiver has some flex in it when using a tight loop/hasty sling. This flex does change the point of impact somewhat. Granted, most people aren't going to use these for competition shooting, particularly in high power matches but it is something to consider. BTW, I am not against polymer receivers, I have a couple Cav Arms lowers.

amd6547
June 28, 2012, 09:26 AM
When I shot mine, I didn't sling up...I was more interested in function testing and learning the feel of the polymer trigger.
The fit of my upper to the polymer lower was pretty tight...no movement whatsoever. The polymer lower seems pretty stiff. I would think you would see more sling effect from a loose fitting upper/lower combo or a non free float barrel.
Next time I am at the range I will try it. This upper has an HBAR barrel. I have never seen any sling effect on groups with my forged lower, but then, I usually just use a hasty sling and don't really bear down hard on it.

jlewis406
June 29, 2012, 07:26 PM
I haven't gone through and read every single post on this thread so I am not up to speed on the conversation. Just putting in my 2 cents. But here is what I know of polymer lowers. My buddy has a Plum Crazy polymer lower with a Stag upper. I was skeptical about it at first. Shot it, liked it. The control's are are very smooth. I like that I can put the gun to "Safe" after the hammer has dropped. He has put about 1100 rounds through the gun , not a single problem. He sure spent a whole lot less for his polymer lower than I did on my mil spec lower and his gun is a lot lighter than mine. Would I put one on a patrol or combat rifle? No. Would I put one on a range/plink/hunting rifle? Yes.

meanmrmustard
June 29, 2012, 08:44 PM
I haven't gone through and read every single post on this thread so I am not up to speed on the conversation. Just putting in my 2 cents. But here is what I know of polymer lowers. My buddy has a Plum Crazy polymer lower with a Stag upper. I was skeptical about it at first. Shot it, liked it. The control's are are very smooth. I like that I can put the gun to "Safe" after the hammer has dropped. He has put about 1100 rounds through the gun , not a single problem. He sure spent a whole lot less for his polymer lower than I did on my mil spec lower and his gun is a lot lighter than mine. Would I put one on a patrol or combat rifle? No. Would I put one on a range/plink/hunting rifle? Yes.
Off topic, but I love your sig. I thought mine was good, yours makes me laugh every time I hear it. Makes me think of Arnold's pain yodel! Ha!

MistWolf
June 29, 2012, 08:46 PM
New Frontier Armory abandoned this thread back in January

newbuckeye
July 1, 2012, 11:28 PM
I don't think they abandoned it, maybe they just have better things to do......

Cal-gun Fan
July 2, 2012, 12:07 AM
Has anyone done any testing with these to determine how much flex they have? As an Appleseed instructor I have noticed that the S&W MP22 which has a plastic receiver has some flex in it when using a tight loop/hasty sling. This flex does change the point of impact somewhat. Granted, most people aren't going to use these for competition shooting, particularly in high power matches but it is something to consider. BTW, I am not against polymer receivers, I have a couple Cav Arms lowers.
Read the whole thread, they did a test on that and videotaped it.

meanmrmustard
July 2, 2012, 06:52 AM
I don't see my anyone wouldn't wanna use the polymer lower for duty use. Polymer is tough as nails, and if it flexes, so what! It'll flex back into shape. Aluminum can't do that. If it gets hit hard enough to malform, it's stuck that way. Glocks and all the tupperware pistols get to go on patrol, so why couldn't this lower?

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