All you experts, help me choose a handgun... :-)

[trooper]

Guys,

I'll finally be joining the ranks... next month I'll have completed the compulsory one-year waiting period and will be elegible for a firearms permit.

I herewith request all your expertise to help me choose my first privately owned handgun :)

I will most likely never ever carry it. It will be purely a range/home-defense gun so weight and concealability don't really matter. Accuracy, however, is an issue (at least to some extent) as I occasionally shoot service pistol bullseye competitions and might get into PPC at some point in the future.

So... I've been thinking about this subject for quite a while (obviously :) ) and I came up with some ideas...

I might go for a 9mm DA/SA auto, mostly because of cheap practice ammo.

CZ 75: shot it a lot, generally liked it, dead accurate IMO.
USP: shot it briefly, seemed to be quite nice.

I also considered a Glock as I don't really mind the trigger but I'm a bit afraid I might get used to the weird grip angle :) SIGs are really nice but out of my price range unless I find a really good deal.

I'm also considering a 1911 in .45 ACP, something simple like a plain-jane milspec. I haven't shot one very often but it just feels right in my hand and points great. BTW what 25m accuracy could I expect from a typical entry-level 1911?

And lately I've really been thinking about a S&W 586 or 686... the simplicity and accuracy appeal to me, and they do have a certain coolness factor... oh, and few things feel more macho than shooting serious magnum loads :D

Duh, now I've mentioned pretty much all major handgun types ;) I suppose I really need professional help...

My problem is that I have to specify the exact caliber on the application form. Therefore I can't just get my permit and look out for the sweetest deal that happens to come my way.

Ya gotta help me decide!! Please post all the pros and cons you can find, as well as your personal opinion, even if it just amounts to "You have no choice but to buy a Glock." ;)

Fire away!!


Thanks in advance,

Trooper

[ReadyontheRight]

First Handgun?

In Germany?

Shooting service pistol bullseye?

Why...a 1911, of course!

Edited to add that ROTR ain't no expert;) I just know what I like. I think you'll be happy with mil-spec 1911 accuracy, but you will probably get better accuracy for less out of a wheelgun like a Ruger GP100. With a 1911, you can always upgrade the accuracy as you go -- new barrel, frame to slide fit, trigger job, barrel bushing, etc.

Also -- I'm personally pretty keen on the Dan Wesson Patriots -- worth checking out -- good fit/finish and match barrel and bushing for less than other brands.

[armoredman]

CZ. Everything you need will be close, and the CZ is an excellent pistol, accurate and fun.
Can you get a carry permit, or do you have to be the Chancellor's brother?:(

[Josey]

A Colt WWII repro! I honestly suggest a BHP in 9MM as a second caliber.

[45R]

Any variety of Sig Sauer will serve you well. :)

If you dont like Sigs then I would go with the CZ

[trooper]

Wow, THAT was fast :)

Right now I'm only talking about my first handgun cos you can only buy one every six months.

No carry permit in sight (and I'm not Gerhard Schroeder's bro either :) ) but I plan to get in LE work this fall again which means that I can carry my issued piece off-duty too.


Regards,

Trooper

[trooper]

If you dont like Sigs then I would go with the CZ

I like SIGs plenty, in fact I shot and carried a P 225 throughout my whole career. Sad thing is, right now they're outside my financial range unless I find a good police trade-in.

I haven't had a chance to shoot a BHP yet but I'll try it out.


Regards,

Trooper

[Sarge]

on all counts.

[schromf]

Do you have a local Rod and Gun Club? In the past there were some very good opportunities to purchase local handguns through these. There were models available you never saw in Conus, and versions that were scarce.

I would look and see if you can find a Sig P210 or maybe a Walther like a
P-88 would both be good choices.

I would first find the Rod and Gun and talk to some people there, find out the rules for purchase and importing back into the US, and what is available. Then repost with what is available through that outlet, you are probably looking at a one time shot at bringing in something nice, and you can always find a 1911 once you are Conus agian.

[trooper]

Do you have a local Rod and Gun Club?

Nope.

Then repost with what is available through that outlet, you are probably looking at a one time shot at bringing in something nice, and you can always find a 1911 once you are Conus agian.

I probably won't be "back" in the US anytime soon (unless for vacation)... :) I'm not an Army guy stationed overseas, just a regular German national who happens to like things that go BOOM and knows a word or two in English... ;)


Regards,

Trooper

[VaughnT]

Browning High Power: Beautiful weapon. Reliable. Cheap ammo. Accurate. Fantastic ergonomics. Cheap ammo!! This is one great pistol and I don't think you could go wrong with it as an initial venture into handgun ownership. I just bought one for myself and can't wait to put a few thousand rounds downrange.

S&W 686: Beautiful revolver. Excellent ergonomics. Accurate. Cheap to shoot with .38spl loads. Durable as the day is long. I carried a 686 for four years on the job and was thoroughly amazed at what it put up with in terms of use and abuse. Undeniably the premier combat revolver, I am in love and will be adding one to my personal inventory just as soon as I find one on the market that I like.

Colt 1911: Beautiful pistol. Accurate to a fault. Grandfather of modern Bullseye competition pistols. Reliable for defense. Perfect handling characteristics. I carry one of these ladies every day, now. I would stick with Colt as I honestly believe they are currently turning out the best product on the market. A milspec might not be as accurate as you like for bullseye, but you can customize it til your heart's content.

None of the above would be a bad choice.

[Black Majik]

I'm gonna 2nd and 3rd all these fine gentlemen and go for the Colt 1911.

It'll definitely hold you over for the 6 months til your next gun and even longer! :D

[schromf]

Are you limited to guns that aren't military caliber? I know some countries in Europe have that restriction. Hence the 9 X 21 instead of the 9 X 19. How hard and expensive is it to get ammo there, like 45 ACP? All valid questions before you buy.

[Ala Dan]

Check out CDNN investment's; sometimes you can pick
up on a really good deal on police trade-in's. Recently,
I think they had either the full size .45 cal SIG P220
or the P226 in 9m/m (can't remember which?) for right
around $479.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Majic]

I agree with checking you ammo availability. That would have the most pronoun affect on your choices. Nothings worst than having a nice handgun and no ammo for it.

[makarov]

Not sure on the rules for PPC, but if you really are intending to shoot bullseye, buy a quality 1911 that can be accurized later. Colt Gold Cup, Dan Wesson Patriot, Kimber Series I, Springfield Armory might all be decent suggestions. If you want a quality range gun in 9mm you were right on with the CZ. You might look at the 85 Combat. I have one and the trigger is a little nicer, plus it has adjustable sights. If you want a .45 check out the CZ-97 (don't know why you couldn't use it for bullseye too, but I don't know the rules of that game very well.)

[trooper]

Ammo is not a problem at all, you can get all major calibers and brands over here. Prices are a few bucks over the US level. We're not limited to non-military calibers, either.

For practical reasons I've limited myself to the following: 9x19, .45 ACP or .357 Mag/.38 special. The more exotic calibers like 10mm tend to be rather expensive over here, too.

Unfortunately CDNN and other American sources are not really an option because it is quite a hassle to get a gun imported from overseas and registered in Germany. But thanks for the advice anyway :)

BTW the rules of my association say that you can use any handgun (and many of its clones) for service pistol/revolver bullseye that has been issued as a service weapon somewhere sometime, so all of your suggestions qualify.

I noticed that there are quite a few BHP's floating around in my price range but I'll have to shoot one first before I could think about buying one. And I also found a nice bunch of SA milspecs for a very reasonable price... argh, all those decisions...


Regards,

Trooper

[Majic]

Decisions, decisions.......if you are more game oriented then the hi-cap 9mm or .45acp would fit the bill. Otherwise the .357mag revolver would be the most versatile allowing 2 different power levels for shooting.
I'm more of a revolver shooter and say a 4" M686/586 can fill all the roles, assuming the games over there have a revolver class. If you don't plan on shooting a lot of the hot .357mag ammo, then the M66/19 would be ideal. I think they balance better than the M686. Or if your hands are large enough and the price isn't prohibitive the N-framed M27 or M28 in a 5" barrel would be even better.

[Trisha]

I second VaughnT's post!

If Browning High Powers are plentiful, then be sure to check several - too many people absolutely love them!

Personally, I'd go with a new Colt (if I was going to go out and buy a new pistol today), and go for as nice a one as I could possibly afford!

I have to keep reminding myself we're talking about your first - so I'd get the romance off on the best possible start!

But before anybody thinks about kicking me for not turning the spotlight on a superb S&W 686, or (pant, pant) a minty Colt Python, unless we're going to start a common financial fund for trooper, the 1911's the best of all possible worlds.

Just be sure to get the 686 or the Python second, OK?

:D

Trisha

[Majic]

Hey now, to honor his name I think if he shows up at the range with a 4" nickeled Trooper MkIII he can hold his own, look good, and still have a few coins left in his pockets.

[dairycreek]

I would sure urge you to consider a CZ P-01! In my experience it has been both accurate and reliable. I assume the 9mm ammo is both cheap and plentiful. For a first gun (or any gun for that matter) I think you would find it an excellent choice. No matter what you choose - Good shooting;)

[Sean Smith]

At least over here, the pre-eminent centerfire bullseye pistol is the 1911 by a vast margin. Bear in mind, though, that most 1911s used for serious bullseye competition are modified or custom-built guns, and many bullseye competitions here require that you use a .45 caliber.

If you are interested in affordable accuracy, new 01991 series Colts have proven to be VERY accurate. I think they are worth the mark-up over the Springfield Armory guns (at least over here, where they are about $100 or so more). A Colt Gold Cup would be even better for bullseye use, but those are nearly $1,000, though you may be able to find a used one for less.

As for revolvers, a good Python can't be beat, but they tend to be expensive. Almost any S&W .357 revolver is a good idea... 686, 586, 66, 19, 27, etc.

One thing to consider is that hardly anybody does a good Python action tune over here, so I can only imagine that it would be even harder to find somebody to do one in Germany.

A CZ-75B or variant is also an extremely good choice, I loved mine.

[schromf]

Sean's advice is sound. Another option I have heard good things about is Peters Stahl, these are German made so they might be reasonable priced for you. The Trophy Master in 45 ACP looks paticularly interesting to my eye.

[T.Stahl]

Guns I'd suggest:

A 9x19, there's nothing you'd gain by getting a .45Auto. Look at the various German shooting records and decide for yourself whether that larger hole truely gets you another ring. It doesn't. For self-defense, well, that's up to you. Do you trust in "impulse delivered into the target" or "high speed ensuring reliable expansion of the bullet"? I prefer the 9mm, "just don't lead them as much".

HK USP Expert (or Elite if you don't mind its looks):
- A high quality handgun, Made in Germany.
- The grip is slip-proof, it bites into your hands and it won't shift during firing, no grip tape, Hogue grip or A-Grip needed. Bore axis is a bit high over your wrist, more muzzle flip.
- Factory sights are more than ok for target shooting, consider adjustable night-sights for HD.
- High capacity, though mags are quite expensive (compared to Glock).
- Accurate, I'd probably shoot better with my brother's Expert than with my own Glock 17L.
- Price is still acceptable, last time I checked the local dealer sold them for 1090€.

Glock 17L (or 34 if you ever consider IPSC production class(?) ):
- Durable, will last forever and three days.
- The grip angle is just right. Makes pointing the gun much faster and easier for me. Also lowers the Bore axis relative to your wrist, smaller lever for the recoil, less muzzle flip.
- The trigger is, uuh, gewöhnungsbedürftig, but a few weeks of dry-firing in front of the TV can cope with that.
- Factory adjustable sights are so-so. I'm still considering adjustable Meprolights for target shooting and HD.
- Mags and other accessories are downright cheap.
- Accurate enough, my best score for a Rundenwettkampf was 370 (180+190)
- They are cheap. The list-price in that large green catalogue is 719€ for the G34, smaller dealers should sell them for ~675. Just imagine all the ammo you could buy for the price difference!

CZ 75 Sport II (or CZ 75 1500):
- All steel, heavy, good for target shooting.
- Hogue rubber grip is standard.
- Tests say they are highly accurate.
- They cost about as much as a USP Expert.
- The Cadet .22lr kit costs less than 300€.

SIG 210-5 Long Slide Heavy Frame:
- Just joking. :D


Guns I wouldn't consider:

- 1911s in 9mm. The 1911 was designed for a much larger catridge. Redesigning them for a 9mm will not improve their reliability.
- Guns ala Sig Sauer 226 X-Zone with an additional frame- or barrel-mounted weight that hinders field-stripping, just because it's inconvenient and an inferior solution.
- Stainless steel. Anti-glare black is the way to go. ;)

[GunWares]

I'll finally be joining the ranks... next month I'll have completed the compulsory one-year waiting period and will be elegible for a firearms permit.

Just curious, what is the rationale for making you wait one year? Is it to reduce "crimes of passion" by imposing a long "cooling off" period? :p

As for a gun recommendation, 1911 or BHP... there can be only two. ;)

[trooper]

Well, let's see...

I would trust both .45 and 9mm for personal defense as long as we're talking about quality loads.

There's only one possible reason for me to choose .45 ACP: getting a 1911 in its original caliber. I wouldn't want a 9mm 1911 either.

Should I decide to get a 1911 I'll apply for .45, in case I want a wheelgun it'll of course be .357 mag, if I opt for anything else I'll go 9mm. As I said, my caliber selection depends on what gun I decide to get.

T., you mentioned some nice pieces but since I'm a BDMP member I'll definitely go with a basic no-nonsense production gun that roughly qualifies as a "service gun" under our rules. That means I have to "downgrade" your suggestions to a stock HK USP, Glock 17 and CZ-75B :) All of them are still on my list of "possibles", though. Oh BTW, the Elite IS butt-ugly ;)

I know that most of those guns that were mentioned by all of you might not give me match-grade accuracy, but at this point I'm not able yet to outshoot any reasonably accurate gun anyway. Besides, I compete against those guns too, so I wouldn't really be at a disadvantage.

I have shot a Glock and didn't really mind the trigger and the strange grip angle; in fact it was quite a nice shooting. However, I do have a problem with getting spoiled by the Glock; it just points waaayy different than any other gun, and chances are that I'll carry one of those "other" guns on duty again next year. This may make sense or not... ;)

So right now it boils down to the question whether I want a 1911, a revolver or a hi-cap wondernine.


Regards,

Trooper


Edited to add:
Schromf, Peters Stahl guns are NOT reasonably priced precisely because they ARE German-made :) At least for me... They have a good reputation, though.

[trooper]

I tell you, Gunware, passion can go a looong way... "Revenge is a dish best served cold..." :D :D

No, the reason is that German politicians, judges and goverment administrators have always held the position that there should be as few firearms in private hands as possible. The waiting period is meant to sort out the serious sports shooters from all those guys who just want to acquire a gun for committing horrendous crimes with it, like defending their family against Eastern European burglar gangs... :banghead:


Regards,

Trooper

[Dorian]

Ooooooh! Get the HK! GOOOOOO USP!

It was my first pistol and will be my next pistol. :)

HK USP in 9mm of .45. You can't go wrong! :)

[schromf]

Glock:(

I wouldn't consider waiting a year on a list for a Glock. I have a Model 34 it shoots good, is fairly accurate, has crappy sights, makes funny noises like a clock coming unsprung every time I shoot it ( really distracting ), and is dirt cheap to shoot. Do I like it, Yeah, would I trade it for any of my S&W revolvers, my Colt Python, or my Colt 1911's: ARE YOU SMOKING CRACK??? I like my model 19 less, but it is more reliable.

You will pay a premium for a Colt in GE, or any US manufacturer. I have no idea what a Stahl would cost there, but I am reasonably certain I would have to mortgage one of my kids to afford one here, one word quality.

You didn't drop ammo prices on us but it sounded like 9 x 19 was reasonable there. A good solid choice is a SIG. Are the 225's still available? Other good choices are a 220 in 9mm, and a 226. What fits your hand? Another Sig is a 210 ( more expensive ). I don't have any idea what your used market is like there but any of the above in servicable condition are good choices. A used 225 in the US in great condition should be in the 375-450 dollar range. New they are unavailable. A new P220 in a 45 ACP is around $650, in 9mm again unavailable.

I would decide what you want to do with your firearm and make some decisions based on your anticipated use. An example is a daily carry weapon should relatively light and compact but fit your hand, but a range or hunting weapon can be larger and heavier. A P225 is a good carry weapon, a P210 is a great range gun. Me just cause I can't buy new ones I would get a new P220 in a 38 Super but a 9mm in the same gun is a solid choice. There is nothing bad about a P226, actually the only Sig I wouldn't want is a plastic handled one.

HK's good solid guns, I don't like their triggers especially, but they are solid platform, if they fit you well. I don't see how you will save any money on an HK, but if you do you have a tale to tell that we all want to hear I am sure. My favorite HK is a P7M13, they are on the periodic table of elements here in the US as unavailabilium. If HK are still selling these new there it would be my first chioce, it has it all concealable, accurate, reliable, and style. If I couldn't get a M13 I would settle for a M8, but a M13 would be a no brainer save my money till I could afford it, and a M8 other options come into play.

CZ- I figure this should cost around 200 DM give or take a small amount if your paying more than that your getting ripped, OK add the 40% VAT on top of that but that is a pretty close to on target price. They are good guns, not in the same class as some of the above listed ones though.

[Hal]

Walther P99?

Right now, it's the front runner as my own carry piece. slash. HD gun.

I've given a lot of consideration to most of the others listed so far, and all around the P99 is looking like "it".

A year is a long time to wait though, and of everything listed and just about everything out there, a High Power comes the nearest to a "wait a year for it" gun. (not to rub it in, but I have 2 of them) They're classics.

[T.Stahl]

..., and chances are that I'll carry one of those "other" guns on duty again next year.
Then why not get a duplicate of your duty handgun or at least one with the same handling characteristics? Why train mainly with one gun and carry a different one?
There's an MP in our club. On duty he carries an HK P8 and privately he owns an HK USP9f. A dangerous combination as both guns "feel" the same, but the safety levers work in opposite ways. :(

[trooper]

Because... well, because I don't feel like letting some dumb undersecretary in the Ministry of the Interior decide which toys I buy :)

Seriously, I didn't rule Glocks out yet. And since I have no idea which agency I'll work for I don't know what I'll carry in the future. Then again, maybe I'm thinking too much about this issue...

A USP would be a nice choice but the trigger is... um, not so nice.

Maybe I'll just keep it simple and and go for a 1911. The feel of it and the trigger are hard to resist...


Regards,

Trooper

[trooper]

To all of those who recommended the Hi Power to me:

how would you describe its trigger pull in comparison with other popular semi autos? How about the handling characteristics and pointability?

I'll make sure to try them out if I get the chance but it would be neat to have an idea what we're talking about before...


Thanks,

Trooper

[orangeninja]

ONE GUN???? how can they be so cruel....


I say 9mm CZ but get a CZ 85 Combat....OH YEAH!!!

DA/SA and adjustable sights and trigger....

9mm....cheap and fun to shoot.

[Berg01]

The "old school" approach to handguns used to be that your first should always be a revolver. Revolvers are generally easier to control, and to shoot well, much easier to maintain, and definitely the most reliable guns to shoot. It seems like that philosophy has been lost on a lot of the younger shooters.

Following your own stated criteria, the S&W 686 w/ 6" bbl. is the way to go, since it best meets your needs.

[trooper]

Is cost an issue for you

You bet...

As much as I like the 1911 pattern, money-wise it would probably be the smartest decision to get a 9mm (which is quite affordable here).

Basically, I'd get the hell out of any such restrictive area, if I was really into guns.

Unfortunately, this "restrictive area" is identical with Germany :mad:


Regards,

Trooper

[trooper]

Hmm, if you point me to a place where someone who never learned anything in his life but being a German cop will actually get a job... :D :D

Seriously, we're working to make life better for gunowners in Germany. We're only a few folks yet but we do what we can to educate the public and influence politics. I'm not giving up this country yet.

BTW I had a nice home defense and carry piece for years while I was on the force... my trusty P 225. I might actually get one of those if I find a nice one.

My wallet is trying to convince me to get a 9mm, and right now this probably the smartest solution. I will definitely own a 1911 someday but I want it to be a .45. And I want it to work every time I pull the trigger...


Regards,

Trooper

[Bill Hook]

You could be a cop elsewhere, assuming a Green Card is forthcoming.

I will definitely own a 1911 someday but I want it to be a .45. And I want it to work every time I pull the trigger...

Skip doing a trigger job on it past polishing the sear and hammer a little with a Dremel felt tip and a slightly lighter mainspring.


I'd get a CZ or BHP.

[Berg01]

BTW I had a nice home defense and carry piece for years while I was on the force... my trusty P 225. I might actually get one of those if I find a nice one.

Might be hard to improve on a Sig P225 if thats what you're used to...I have a P228, so I know

[busdriver72]

I've got a Springfield 1911 .45. It's the WWII repo model. Paid $369. Shoots good, accurate.

[Safety First]

Trooper, I am not an expert by any means, but if you like Sigs the P-239 in 9mm weighs in empty at 25.2 oz, 1.25 inches in width and come with a 7 and 8 round mag. I paid $529.00 NIB for mine, it is a great carry gun, check it out

[Browns Fan]

Trooper, I have some great memories of Germany. One of my fondest is buying a CZ75 at the Patch Barracks Rod & Gun Club in Stuttgart. A great gun at a great price!

[busdriver72]

"...all you experts..."?
Hey....I'm an expert now!
Do I get a raise?

"Expert"

"Ex" = a has been.
"spert" = a drip under pressure.
:D

[trooper]

Sure... everybody who has more than 10 posts or owns more than 10 guns is entitled to be an expert in my thread :)


Regards,

Trooper

[busdriver72]

Hey Trooper, seeing as how you're in Germany, this came to mind...
I own a Star model B that was made in late 1945. It was made to be shipped to the German army. Of course the war ended, but the gun did end up issued to German police afterwards. It would be interesting to know who the police officer in germany was that carried it.
I was a law enforcement officer myself for nearly 11 years.

[trooper]

Busdriver,

I just found a special edition of the German gun rag "Visier" about historical German police firearms in the back of my closet. It said that the Star B was issued to the State Police Depts. of Hesse and Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) until the mid '60s.

If you're interested in your gun's history, let me know the serial no. and other markings. I might be able to find out a bit more.


Regards,

Trooper

[busdriver72]

Outstanding! Thanks!
I'll get back to you with the info.

[busdriver72]

Okay, Trooper, here goes....
As I said, it's a Star Model B. The serial number is 269087.
It has the "8mm" marking on the barrel visible inside the ejection port, which is the German indication for the 9mm caliber.
With the serial number, I was able to confirm that it was made in Spain in 1945 to be shipped to Germany. When it made it to Germany and when it was issued to an officer there I do not know.
I appreciate anything you can dig up.
God bless ya!:)

[Arc Angel]

:rolleyes: Why do I keep fixing on your remarks about wanting to shoot PPC and target? If this is your primary motivation, then, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A REVOLVER! Yes, you can use a semi-auto to shoot PPC; but they'll make you stand on the far right of the line.

All S&W revolvers are not the same. After having blown up my model 19 due to a steady diet of 357mag.; and seen a number of other 'K' frames go out-of-time for the same reason, I'd opt for, at least, an, 'L' frame; and stay away from the, 'K'. (Unless you plan on shooting, only, 38spc.) One of my daily carry guns is a 686 with a 2 1/2" barrel; it's fitted with a nice set of Hogue, goncalo alves, 'orthopedic-style' grips; it is perfect as a carry weapon that, also, performs well at 25 yards! (I love this gun - it's one of my keepers.) I, also, shoot PPC with an S&W Model 27, 'N' frame with a 6" barrel. Just once in your life you should own a '20 series', 'N' frame; and, right now, you could probably pick one up at a discounted price. (The steel is the old mil. spec. ordinance carbon steel - very hard; and, in my opinion, better made than the new S&W's which I, also, own and use.) Another poster mentioned that a 4" barrel covers all the bases - I agree! If I had to choose only one barrel length, 4" would be it.

Yes, Pythons are nice, and expensive too. Don't get me wrong, I love the Python; but when it comes to brutal use, the old Smiths will take a whole lot more punishment and shoot a lot longer. (This is, 'Why' so many old-time police departments went with the S&W over Colt revolvers. The action parts are hardened, and the firing pin is on the hammer where it's less likely to wear or break.)

If you aren't, already, confused enough don't forget that the Browning P-35 is a true classic that will, not only, retain its value; but, if well maintained, it should actually appreciate. I carried one for several years; of all the large frame autos the, 'High Power' is the slimmest and most comfortable to carry. (You've, also, got 13 rounds to play with, too.) It's cousin the Colt 1911A-1 is another pistol that you MUST own, at least, once in your life. I'd go with the advice on the Dan Wesson Patriot, or else I'd look for an Imbel-framed, Springfield Armory 1911.

Personally, because you've indicated that purchase price is a limiting factor, I don't see a SIG P-210 in your future. That might not be a bad thing, though; this is, after all, a high-end target pistol in a peculiar 9mm chambering. What puzzles me about this thread is, 'Why' I haven't heard the name, 'Ruger' more? The GP-100 is a, 'built to last forever' revolver; out of the box, all it needs is a good action job and a set of Wolff gunsprings.

By the way, what's all this fuss about Glock frames and grip angle? I'll be among the first to admit that there are a lot of things wrong with Glock pistols; but the 9 x 19's are among the best pistols in Glock's line. (My other daily carry piece is a G-21; but, let me stress, I understand the strengths and weaknesses of the, 'La Francaise' design. I am keenly aware of what my 45acp Glock can and cannot do. Would I recommend a Glock Model 17 or 19 without reservation; yes, I would; and, once you learn how to, 'index' a Glock trigger, you, just, might learn to love it as much as I do. (All my Glocks are standard 5 1/2# pull; they let-off plenty easy; and I have, yet, to discover any need to go to the 3 1/2# connectors.) So that you understand, 'Where' I'm coming from I own a pair of BEAUTIFUL, custom-built, Colt, Series 70, 1911's; and in a gunfight I, personally, would be more comfortable with my Glock Model 21's. There are quite a few custom-tuned triggers around my house; but, in my entire shooting career, I have never used a better combat trigger than the standard 5 1/2# Glock trigger. (This afternoon I had one of the Colts and one of the Model 21's out at the range. At 7 1/2, 12, and 16 1/2 yards X's and 9 rings, simply, disappear; and most of my shooting, today, was with the Glock. Which reminds me: My G-21's are, also, customized: Wolff steel recoil guide rod and standard weight 17# spring, Mepro-Light night sights, and Shok-Buf recoil gasket - that's it!

Ultimately everyone's buying suggestions come down to the proposition; 'What would I do if ... .' Well, if I were in Germany, my first choice would be something in 9mm. (By the way, CZ makes a very durable, well-designed pistol. You may be overlooking it simply because, right now, you've got a case of, 'wanderlust' in your eyes.) If PPC and target really are priorities, then, 38/357 would be at the top of my list. Like so many of the other posters, here, I'd suggest you make up your mind what you want to do; then, choose the caliber and the pistol to suit the intended use. Good luck!

PS: I posted your signature line on my screen saver; and, now, my wife won't let me into the bedroom. What did I do wrong? 'A MAN CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MANY GUNS, TOO MANY WOMEN, OR TOO MUCH AMMUNITION!' Have I got it right? What's wrong with this. Why is this woman being so unreasonable?

Regards,

Arc Angel
This is my first post at The High Country! ;)

[Brian Dale]

Good, well thought-out stuff, Arc Angel; welcome to The High Road.

trooper, I confess that I've no help to offer. I like all of the main candidates that have been discussed here, except that Glocks don't seem to fit my hands as well as I'd like (and they go, "sproing," too). I'm going through "which serious handgun to buy first," myself. Which handgun do you see yourself happily keeping forever, even when you've given the rest of your guns to your grandchildren in (one hopes) the gun-friendly days of the distant future?

[trooper]

Which handgun do you see yourself happily keeping forever, even when you've given the rest of your guns to your grandchildren in (one hopes) the gun-friendly days of the distant future?

If I only knew...

Arc Angel, thanks for your detailed advice (and again many thanks to all of you who shared their opinion). So far I've narrowed my choice down to a 9mm as a first gun. All those other "must-haves" will eventually follow, believe me...

Since I will most likely buy a used gun my choice will partly depend on what's available. I guess I wouldn't go wrong with any of your suggestions so I'm not worried about that. Anyway, I'll let you know how my quest turns out...

Busdriver,
let me see what I can do... ;)


Regards,

Trooper

[Checkman]

Trooper-

I'd go with the Hi-Power. Though the trigger job isn't as nice as other models and it dosen't lend itself to "tweaking" it' s a fine handgun. It was designed as a combat handgun and it is that. I'm not a big fan of 1911's, but I like the BHP. They got it right with the BHP. I've owned mine for twelve years and I've never had any problems.

[Majic]

I don't understand your statement Checkman. What is it about the Hi-Power they got right that was missed in the 1911? They are different designs, but both have been successfull handguns in service for decades.
Many Hi-Powers have had trigger/action jobs, been tweaked, and customized over the years. Yes it is a fine handgum designed for combat, but so is the 1911 and many others.
The 1911 problems comes from the quality of the manufactors, plus all the various companies building it. A well built 1911 with quality parts following the original design specs will have no problems just as the Hi-Power. The Hi-Power also has it's clones, but not all of them are top shelf products either. Please explain your point unless it's just a persoanal opinion?

[Checkman]

Majic -

It's a personal opinion. I've never like the brushing, toggle etc. I can remember having one heck of a time putting my 1911 back together in the Army (back when I was a tanker - late 80's - one of several MOS's that I had) and that experience turned me off to Mr. Browning's famous handgun. My father is a 1911 fan and owns several of them. But I have no luck with them. I know that it's mostly mental, but I just don't care for it.

This however is not a slam on the model. I know that it's capable of great accuracy, reliablility, and so on. However I prefer the BHP design. My favorite semi-auto would have to be Sig though. I own two of those and I find that I shoot them very well. Once again it's probably mostly mental, but I trust my Sigs. Incidentally I carry a Sig as my duty gun, but I work with several officer's (also with my agency) who carry 1911's. I have no problem with them backing me up. Hopefully this clears things up. Sorry that I didn't make that clear in my first posting.

[Majic]

No problem, we all have our likes and dislikes. I was asking because it seems recently comments made by some are taken out of text or misunderstood and arguments have developed. Hopefully clarifying one's opinion will eliminate some of this and some 1911 owner won't take offense of you choosing the Hi-Power over the 1911.
I've admired Hi-powers and will purchase one, but in research I see that the choices and history is mind boggling. One day though the right model will reveal itself to me.