What ammo for 10.5 barrel 5.56 for rural defence use?


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RAINS
December 3, 2011, 02:19 AM
I like to hike/bike all over here in Oregon. Live in a very wet brushy area. Usually just pack a .45 wile hiking/biking a long distance. Where I live one can hardly see past 50-100 yards. However I'm planning to head south and explore new ground this spring/summer. That puts me into more open areas. Not vast open ranges but still further than my .45 will work for.
Have a sig 556 SBR transferring threw now. 10.5 barrel 1/7 twist and 5.56x45 caliber. It will be carried for self defense for hiking and cycling. Worried about crazies in trucks and pot growers mainly at 25-250 yards.
What the heck sort of ammo should I pack? Was thinking about some 62g pmc X-tac or maybe some heaver 75g BTHP ammo. Any thoughts gents?
I'd work up my own load but I can't shoot steel case or reloads in my sig due to it's lifetime warranty that I don't want to void. Any input from SBR owners would be much appreciated. Thanks!


R

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rmhtexas
December 3, 2011, 02:55 AM
I would go with Black Hills Mk 262 Mod1. Its a 77gr otm in 5.56mm. I believe thats what the mil is running in their mk 18's an HK 416. Origninally designed for the SPR, the Mk 262 was designed to be more leathal at longer ranges than m855 due to its ability to yaw, fragment, and expand at lower velocity. The 75gr will work well also but I have not been able to find it in the 5.56mm only in .223.

RMH

Bartholomew Roberts
December 3, 2011, 10:51 AM
The downside of the heavier loads in an SBR is even less velocity. I would look at a solidly constructed HP (something bonded or copper) in a lighter weight. The bonded copper construction will keep it from disintegrating and the lighter weight will get you some extra velocity out of the short barrel - Black Hills Barnes 50gr TSX?

IIRC, the "ideal" load for the MK18 is 70gr Optimal (brown tip) which isn't available to civilians; but since we aren't bound by the laws of land warfare, that may not be a bad thing.

Stack
December 3, 2011, 04:01 PM
For information sake; Black hills 77 grain-
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/24_83_198/products_id/5141
As for a recommendation, I'd carry 63 grain soft points by SSA-
http://www.ssarmory.com/556ammunition-2-2.aspx

rcmodel
December 3, 2011, 04:06 PM
Doesn't matter what load you use.

The muzzle blast & flash from a 10.5" .223 will knock their socks off.
And yours too!

rc

Stack
December 3, 2011, 04:12 PM
Actually, after a second thought I recommend you forget about the warranty and shoot whatever (no steel case for me) rounds you want. Reloads of your own if you're a skilled reloader anyway. Personally I'd save enough in ammunition to buy a spare gun in the first year.

rjrivero
December 3, 2011, 05:04 PM
I'll tell you what, the Nosler Partition 60gr do a FINE job at taking out 250lb pigs. Couldn't believe how hard they hit for a little .223 round pushed with 25gr of H335.

They will retain expansion velocity out to 95-110 yards or so out of a 7.5" barrel, (1800 fps I think. I have to check my notes). So, I presume they would be fine in a 10.5" barrel as well.

The heavier the bullet, the less velocity loss, generally speaking, in a shorter barrel.

David E
December 3, 2011, 06:56 PM
I guess I've missed all the news reports of cyclists getting shot at from 250 yds away.......

Bovice
December 3, 2011, 08:03 PM
I guess I've missed all the news reports of cyclists getting shot at from 250 yds away.......

Me too. I have no problem with the guy wanting a 10.5" AR. I don't like the farce that he's using as an excuse to justify having one. You really think carrying a 10.5" AR, as "short" as it may be, is a smart idea while cycling?

oooookay.

backbencher
December 3, 2011, 11:08 PM
Having caught a 14.5" bbl in the spokes, a 10.5" sounds like a splendid idea while cycling : ) I would suggest hanging the scabbard on the outside of the basket, & keeping the basket unfolded - or carry it in a backpack - which is where I put my Kel-Tec Sub-2000. Personally, I like the heaviest bullets in the caliber the twist can throw - the SS109 bullet & its predecessor depend on velocity for terminal ballistics, which is what you ain't got w/ a 10.5" bbl (or in a 14.5", for that matter, as the Army is discovering...)

Trent
December 4, 2011, 12:37 AM
You guys with your short barrels.. BAH. From my non-NFA-friendly home in Illinois, I respectfully flip you the bird!

:)

David E
December 4, 2011, 12:54 AM
I'm thinking if this is a prevalent problem that has simply gone unreported, then maybe there's a market for an AR swivel mount for the handlebars.....

Hmmmm, could be some money to be made......

axxxel
December 4, 2011, 03:34 AM
I've been thinking of installing hooks on the steel bar that goes from behind the saddle towards the steering axis. The one that's curved on the lady bicycles. This way you could have a ('nother) long gun between your legs as you cycle.

Sure would beat having the m1a hanging on my shoulder as I make the 1hr30min bicycle trip to the range...

rjrivero
December 4, 2011, 11:00 AM
You guys with your short barrels.. BAH. From my non-NFA-friendly home in Illinois, I respectfully flip you the bird!

The probelm isn't US, Trent. The problem is your politicians. You're focusing your energy on the wrong folks. Focus instead on your legislature, assemble your fellow shooters, and get moving on those silly Illiniois Lawmakers.

You too can shoot NFA goodies, if you take on your own representatives.

http://www.revolverforums.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=46&pictureid=265

RAINS
December 4, 2011, 12:31 PM
Will try some of that spendy 77g stuff and some lighter all copper ammo too. Will be nice to have gun I can put in a backpack.



R

medalguy
December 4, 2011, 01:05 PM
Maybe something like this:

Trent
December 4, 2011, 03:59 PM
The probelm isn't US, Trent. The problem is your politicians. You're focusing your energy on the wrong folks. Focus instead on your legislature, assemble your fellow shooters, and get moving on those silly Illiniois Lawmakers.

You too can shoot NFA goodies, if you take on your own representatives.


Nice pic!

Yeah I know, I was just just yanking the chain a bit.

Our problem is that 80% of our state population is in or around Chicago.

Right now, the NRA/ISRA's attention is focused almost entirely on getting Chicago to drop it's outright ban on firearms. Then, maybe, someday they'll make a run at CCW.

I don't ever see NFA being possible in this state. The majority of the people in the state can't even own reduced capacity handguns.

And, if you page back through history, Chicago was the primary motivator behind the original NFA... stands to reason that it'll be the last to fall, if it ever does.

rjrivero
December 4, 2011, 04:49 PM
Understood, Trent. The NFA was because of Chicago Gangsters. No doubt. I used to live in Illinois for a couple years. Moved back to free country, so I know what it's like. I think I still have my FOID card, though many years expired at this point.

halogrinder
December 4, 2011, 09:21 PM
i shot a 10.5" AR15 today with a midwest indusrties 14" foregrip :D

it was neat :what:


the issue was WITHOUT the can on it, it was LOUD, BRIGHT and would singe arm hair coming thru the slots in the foregrip.

without the can on it, it is not the thing i would want to shoot without ear/eye protection and dont think your gonna keep your night vision with that fire ball lol



with the can, it was awesome. it was about 16" with the can on, the foregrip kept oyu from getting burnt from the can, and it handles well.

JustinJ
December 5, 2011, 12:28 PM
As heavy as possible seems to be the current trend is short barrel 5.56 but the 5.7 has been found to be highly effective with very light bullets from very short barrels. The 5.56 was built to scoot.

On a side note i think you may want to reconsider your threat analysis and associated weapon selection. See how many, if any, incidents you can find that you are preparing for.

RAINS
December 5, 2011, 02:49 PM
Honestly for cycling this rifle will get carried very little. Plan on sticking to my pistol mainly. Have not ruled out an sbr ps90 yet. It was and still is "on the list". Also have a ar lower that i was thinking about building into a lightweight 16' barrel gun. I normally run around with 7.62 ak's or a 590 when hiking. But they are just too heavy to take on long hikes let alone bike rides.

barnetmill
December 17, 2011, 05:07 PM
For SBRs is there federal ruling that you have to notify ATF prior to crossing a state line? On a bicycle that is easy to do. If it was me I would carry some sort of accurate handgun with optical sight of some sort. Even a SBR is bit much for a bike and hard to fire it while actually on the bike in contrast to a handgun that is easy to fire while cycling. A bicyclist while moving is a good target for an attack and rather than stop the bike, having the option to draw and fire while still moving is good.

TexasRifleman
December 17, 2011, 05:11 PM
For SBRs is there federal ruling that you have to notify ATF prior to crossing a state line?

Not just notify but get approval in writing before doing it.

rjrivero
December 17, 2011, 05:44 PM
Yes. You need to send the ATF a 5320.20 before transporting NFA items across state lines. Silencers and AOW's exempt.

Gordon
December 17, 2011, 06:53 PM
If you really wanted to go the PDW route then this would be about IT IMHO.
http://www.riflegear.com/p-1025-noveske-75-diplomat-556-pistol.aspx

Strykervet
December 17, 2011, 07:33 PM
Having caught a 14.5" bbl in the spokes, a 10.5" sounds like a splendid idea while cycling : ) I would suggest hanging the scabbard on the outside of the basket, & keeping the basket unfolded - or carry it in a backpack - which is where I put my Kel-Tec Sub-2000. Personally, I like the heaviest bullets in the caliber the twist can throw - the SS109 bullet & its predecessor depend on velocity for terminal ballistics, which is what you ain't got w/ a 10.5" bbl (or in a 14.5", for that matter, as the Army is discovering...)
I ran an SDM course in the army. That 14.5 M4 is capable of hitting a point target at 600m with a stock military rifle and M855 (we used XM193 for one course, all we could get, and it didn't work out as well --accuracy). Today I use the same SOPMOD M4 I used in the army, but I have a Geissele 3gun trigger instead of burst (which I only used once... Good for stitching targets up the center when running towards them). I prefer the 3gun, and I only shoot at the range but I feel very comfortable having it around.

I can't have SBR's in WA, but we just got suppressors, so this particular barrel has the AAC mount permanently attached. I like the 14.5 anyway, when you train so long with something it is hard to go back. If they ever come out with rail guns and Gauss guns, I'll still probably tote an M4.

If you think that round won't do any damage at 600m, I dare you to stand up in front of a KD target and catch one. I guarantee the are supersonic, you can hear 'em overhead. They SNAP! when they pass if still super. When sub, they don't. One time one skipped off the berm and passed through the outhouse next to the pits. One dude just came out when it passed all the way through --that would have been his ticket out.

How much damage will it do? Well, it won't blow apart when it hits like it does at 300m, but it sure will punch a hole. Especially with M855.

For biking around, can't beat a 10mm (it happens to be my favorite round, I carry it and have three tens, so I'm biased here). It will take out anything on legs in these parts (yours included). 200gr. FMJ's at 1100+ fps will take down the black bears we have here (if for some chance you see one come at you, I've only ever seen their tails going the other way!). The 10mm, believe it or not, is accurate to a point target at least to 100m (with a G29) and past 200m with a Smith 1006. I know this from experience. 180gr. Speer Gold Dots clock 1344fps from my 1006. Nasty.

Also had another instructor, my boss actually, he nailed a point target (which is considered to be a single silhouette target, they use two side by side spaced a foot or two apart for area targets on MG ranges) with an HK .40 USP when one kid stood up and said "these 14.5" barrels are no good at these distances!"

My personal best is 5 out of 7 shots on a steel silhouette at 300m with a 686+ 6", standing (I think one handed, but I can't really be sure) using 140gr. Hornady XTP handloads and factory adj. iron sights. This revolver is the tits for what you are describing.

I'd never carry a rifle on a bike trip. Not unless it is some kind of collapsible or like an M6 Scout or something. An AOW like a Serbu might be the ticket too, but I still think a powerful magnum load handgun is better. While an AOW may be useful, I still wouldn't want to be out wandering around with an NFA item. I consider them toys, but I suppose if I had to uphold and defend the Constitution and it came to violence, well, the gloves come off. I know it isn't illegal, I just wouldn't want to do it. Main thing is if the shooting is not justified on your behalf, but you would only get manslaughter and say probation (it happens if the shooting is "almost" justified) that changes with federal sentencing guidelines using an NFA weapon in a crime. Just my pocket change, spend it as you will.

As for the best round in 5.56, best bullet weight in a short barrel, well, you need to do either do the math or look it up. The best one damage wise will be the one that has the highest kinetic energy, and the one that will be the most accurate at range will be the one with the highest BC, your barrel considering (so the 1/7 is a good choice). I like the 70gr. T1 for accuracy personally, but if I were to load them for defense, I'd use the one with a cannelure and use a roll crimp. Folks may disagree, but unless you've dragged the rifle around in the rain and mud, sand and dust, and had minimal time to clean it, you will appreciate the roll crimp (especially in an open bolt MG, particularly the SAW).

The highest BC will be the 80gr., but the military uses a 77gr. SMK for the Mk262 (I think that is right). Considering the barrel length, 10.5", I'd GUESS that you'd be best served with the higher BC bullet because you may not get the velocity you desire to make the smaller bullets shatter (at extended ranges). To bring up something that is kind of non-sequtr, a 6.5 Grendel in a short barrel would have served you best. You don't lose a whole bunch going short. Phenomenal round, my favorite.

BTW, good luck proving SD at long ranges. Especially with an NFA item. It will be used against you in court, and I gurantee you it will look worse on you than any handgun would. I'm also kind of jealous that you, just down the street basically, can get an SBR (and MG's!). I have a bunch of AR's and Glocks, and a few Smiths. I REALLY need something different.

Yeah, I'd implore of you to pick a magnum handgun with a longer barrel, it'll do what you need, be lighter, and not such a liability. .357, 10mm, .41, .44. Keep the SBR for the home and range (and don't use it for defense, even if it is justified, do you want to be thinking about that when in peril?). Think about it.

You also have another problem I just thought of. You'll be concealing a loaded rifle, right? Thought it had to be a handgun.

CapnMac
December 17, 2011, 10:24 PM
Actually, NFA was "sold" as anti-gangster, but, by 1934, the real gangster heyday was already waning, and the feebs and revenuers were already armed to their satisfaction.

NFA was begun as a way of banning all handguns, the better to disarm the "immigrant" class and minorities.

The beginnings of NFA, as a pistol ban, are why there are so many strictures about making longer weapons shorter, and why you can make a pistol into a rifle or carbine; but not the other way around. MG's and suppressors were included as bargaining chips, and because it is always easier to disenfranchise those at the edges--like deciding you can vote at 18-21, but not drink; or own a handgun.

barnetmill
December 17, 2011, 10:28 PM
Why not get one of the AR15 pistols. I think you can fire them from the shoulder using the recoil tube and a red dot sight for aiming. They are considered pistols and so you can cross state lines with them w/o federal permission.

RAINS
December 18, 2011, 02:21 AM
I normally carry around a Glock 21 wile cycling. It's good to 100yards. The SBr will be used 10% cycling, 90% HD and hiking use. The more I think about it the more I think I need to split things up. The 10.5sbr for heavy brush/close range 50-150 yards. For longer range stuff I think I'll put together a 16' AR. Already have a lower collecting dust. Really will only be packing this rifle openly wile cycling deep in the national forest. Mainly when exploring new areas. As far as ammo I think I will try Sliver State Armory otm 77g 5.56.


R

CollinLeon
December 18, 2011, 10:32 AM
Actually, NFA was "sold" as anti-gangster, but, by 1934, the real gangster heyday was already waning, and the feebs and revenuers were already armed to their satisfaction.

NFA was begun as a way of banning all handguns, the better to disarm the "immigrant" class and minorities.

The beginnings of NFA, as a pistol ban, are why there are so many strictures about making longer weapons shorter, and why you can make a pistol into a rifle or carbine; but not the other way around. MG's and suppressors were included as bargaining chips, and because it is always easier to disenfranchise those at the edges--like deciding you can vote at 18-21, but not drink; or own a handgun.
And who can we thank for these infringements upon our 2nd Amendment rights?

You might be surprised to find out that it would be:

THE NRA !!!

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/8608/3/

CollinLeon
December 18, 2011, 10:35 AM
It's just a case of the pot calling the kettle black... The very concept of an NFA firearm is an affront to the 2nd Amendment and the Founding Fathers... What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" are people too stupid to understand?

backbencher
December 18, 2011, 07:01 PM
Stryker,

Would I want to be hit @ 600 yds w/ M855 from an M4? No. But could I return fire before bleeding out? Unless you hit me in the CNS, most probably yes.

Merry Christmas & Happy Hanukkah,

backbencher

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