Giving pistol as gift question - Holiday Gift Thread


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98C5
December 5, 2011, 01:10 PM
My fiance and I are traveling to Georgia in 2 weeks to see her son and wife. I plan to give one of my pistols as a gift. I have a CCW that is good through South Carolina. Looks like it is ok to go through Georgia as long as they are unloaded and in a case.

Can I just take him to a local FFL and have them put the pistol in his name?

I have never given a gun as a gift before so this is new to me.

Thanks!

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NavyLCDR
December 5, 2011, 01:15 PM
Can I just take him to a local FFL and have them put the pistol in his name?

Yes. That is what is required to be done to comply with Federal law since you and your son are residents of difference states. Or, you can ship the handgun to a Georgia FFL as well.

For you to give your son the handgun without transfer through a Georgia FFL would be two violations of Federal law, don't let the Georgia FFL talk you into that.

Also, as a note, the gun will not "be put in his name." There is no gun registration in Georgia. The form 4473 that the FFL uses is to document the required background check, not to "put the gun in his name."

98C5
December 5, 2011, 01:26 PM
Thank you Navy for your help!

TexasRifleman
December 5, 2011, 01:30 PM
Made this a sticky thread, hope you don't mind.

Every year around the holidays we get a lot of questions on the laws around gifting firearms.

There are plenty of other places with the answers but we'll keep this one stuck until after the first of the year and try to put all questions on this topic in one place.

Thanks!

CoRoMo
December 5, 2011, 02:00 PM
...don't let the Georgia FFL talk you into that.
Yep, be prepared to get steered in that direction. Been there, done that.

Franco2shoot
December 6, 2011, 10:36 AM
With Christmas approaching, I was considering purchasing a revolver for my "soon to be" daughter-in-law", but living in Virginia I'm concerned about violating the Straw purchase laws. I suppose I could make the gift to my son, and he could let his fiance know which bedroom drawer it resides in. They live in an apartment complex, and their unit is on the back side of the units. I would like to upgrade her security situation, especially when he is out of town. Its the kind of gift that they cannot afford, and I'm more than willing to conduct the necessary training. She could stay current by accompanying us on our monthly range trips.

Any words of wisdom from the gallery out there?

(I'm thinking .38 snubby)
Thanks

KKKKFL

CoRoMo
December 6, 2011, 10:43 AM
A gift is not a straw purchase.

ps:
Very thoughtful and generous of you to do this!

USAF_Vet
December 6, 2011, 10:46 AM
As long as it is a gift, and the recipient lives in the same state, and there is no need for registration, you can gift it to her and it's not a straw purchase.

If she lives in another state, it still has to be transferred by an FFL.

NavyLCDR
December 6, 2011, 11:19 AM
I was considering purchasing a revolver for my "soon to be" daughter-in-law", but living in Virginia I'm concerned about violating the Straw purchase laws. I suppose I could make the gift to my son, and he could let his fiance know which bedroom drawer it resides in.

I'm confused. What's the difference between you giving the gun to the "soon to be daughter-in-law", giving the gun to your son and letting her "find it", and/or your son giving the gun to his girlfriend? If everybody is a resident of the same state, it's all the same.

CoRoMo
December 6, 2011, 11:46 AM
I can't be sure, but I would bet that, the old "if it's a family member" notion might have shown up again. For some reason, people think that the law has exceptions for family transactions. I don't know.
(I'm thinking .38 snubby)
Ah c'mon. Might as well go full blown 4.25" .357 magnum!! I vote for a stainless GP100 (http://www5.davidsonsinc.com/dealers/prod_images/kgp141-c.jpg).

bikemutt
December 6, 2011, 12:07 PM
Since the thread is now officially open for weapon suggestions :), I recommend a Smith and Wesson Governor for the lady, she can go from scare 'em to drill 'em in one cylinder.

il_10
December 6, 2011, 12:11 PM
^ they all nailed it.

Figure I'd throw in that snubby revolvers are pretty tough to shoot, all things considered. Your saying you're going to conduct the necessary training leads me to believe she doesn't have a ton of experience. Snubs have a tiny sight radius, are often too small in the grip, and will have more felt recoil than a larger revolver. If she's not intending to carry concealed, I'd lean more towards something with a 4" barrel, like a K-frame, model 10 or otherwise.

BUT!

Check out corneredcat.com. If you were a novice and someone told you you need a desert eagle for all situations because men are big and that's what you should have, would you be a little put off? I know I would. Works the same way with women, though usually reversed. Your best bet, if you want her to be interested in it and want to learn to shoot it well, is to let her learn enough to pick her own gun that fits her well, AFTER a bit of training, not before. Again, I don't know her shooting experience, so you're the better gauge of all that.
I think it's awesome what you're doing, good luck to ya!

brickeyee
December 6, 2011, 12:12 PM
A gift is not a straw purchase, and it even says this on the instructions for the 4473.

And in Virginia we do not register or need anyone's permission to purchase what we want.

She does need to be Virginia resident though.

macadore
December 6, 2011, 12:33 PM
As long as it is a gift, and the recipient lives in the same state, and there is no need for registration, you can gift it to her and it's not a straw purchase.

If she lives in another state, it still has to be transferred by an FFL.

Thanks for the info. A stranger recently tried to drag my daughter out of her car after she finished shopping. Fortunately, the door was locked and she was able to drive off. However, she was severely spooked. As a result, she has become interested in owning a handgun.

I just bought a handgun for her, but was unsure if it was legal to give it to her. We both live in the same city. How long does she have to live in the same state to avoid transfer fees? She is in college may have to move in a couple of years.

CoRoMo
December 6, 2011, 12:56 PM
How long does she have to live in the same state to avoid transfer fees? She is in college may have to move in a couple of years.
As long as she lives in your state, she's a resident and can be given a firearm directly from your hands. Her residency ends when she makes a home in another state, a couple years away as you said. There is no time frame that she must remain in the state for, after having been a resident there already, in order to be a resident there currently. So you could give her a pistol for her birthday, and if she decided to move out of state the very next day, it wouldn't matter as far as the gun transaction the day prior.

hth

Sam1911
December 6, 2011, 12:56 PM
According to the ATF, "The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State."

There is no waiting period. While a gun dealer will need to see ID, and may require that ID to be issued by the state in which you are claiming residence in order to sell to you, lawfully there is no federal requirement that you've lived there even one full day -- only that that state is honestly the state in which you have or plan to make your home.

Franco2shoot
December 6, 2011, 01:05 PM
Thanks guys,
Good suggestions all. My concern was that she is not (at least as of this Christmas) a family member.. So gifting to someone not related might be construed as Straw. She is a Virginia resident and as I indicated I know she worries on the night's where my son is out of town.

As for the Snubby approach, I know there are various opinions on this. One school goes that the longer barrel can be snatched out of a small frame woman's hand, and if the aggressor is that close sight picture is not important. Of course, the other side of that argument is "Don't let the aggressor get that close!"

In the end, my feeling is to get her into the gun shop and find the weapon that "Feels" best in her hand, and I don't believe it needs to be 44 magnum caliber. There's not enough room to swing a cat in their apartment, so my advice is "If you hear something outside the bedroom, turn on the lights and yell I've called the cops and I'm armed!" They can steal the silverware/TV and what ever, but come through the bedroom door.... well you know the drill. I'm pretty sure I can teach her to place 3 or 4 rounds center mass at 12'.


KKKKFL

CoRoMo
December 6, 2011, 01:08 PM
Yeah, law says nothing about family member or otherwise; gifts are gifts.

Birch Knoll
December 6, 2011, 01:15 PM
Doesn't matter if she's a family member or not. If she's a resident of the same state as you (and you have no reason to believe she is prohibited from possessing firearms), you may gift her a firearm.

Sam1911
December 6, 2011, 01:29 PM
So gifting to someone not related might be construed as Straw. She is a Virginia resident and as I indicated I know she worries on the night's where my son is out of town.As CoRoMo and ttolhurst said, family or not doesn't enter into it.

This is something that really trips folks up with firearm laws in a lot of ways. Most gun owners, I think, believe there is a "family exemption" to the federal regulations like interstate transfer laws. There isn't. It doesn't matter if you want to give a firearm to your son, your father, or your surgically-separated formerly conjoined twin -- if they reside in another state that transfer has to go through a dealer.

Ironically, if selling or giving a firearm (long gun OR handgun) to a resident of your own state -- according to federal law, at least -- you can hand it to them, ship it to them, give it to someone else to take to them ... whatever you want (except handguns via USPS), whether they're family or a complete stranger.

The huge dichotomy that was created by GCA'68 between what can happen interstate vs. intrastate is absurd and should bother folks a lot more than it seems to.

NavyLCDR
December 6, 2011, 01:41 PM
Franco2shoot,

Normally I would not suggest this as a self-defense gun, but in a small apartment, it might be well suited...

Possibly look at a .410 shotshell revolver such as the Taurus Judge. With shotshell, it is only accurate at very close range, however.

Shotshells also lower the chances of penetrating the interior walls and bullets going into the next apartment.

bikemutt
December 6, 2011, 02:40 PM
Possibly look at a .410 shotshell revolver such as the S&W Governor. With shotshell, it is only accurate at very close range, however.

There Navy, I fixed it for you :D

NavyLCDR
December 6, 2011, 06:44 PM
There Navy, I fixed it for you

With crimson trace laser grips! :cool:

The Lone Haranguer
December 6, 2011, 08:54 PM
The key question on the form is, "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm?" You are, so check "Yes."

TexasRifleman
December 6, 2011, 09:09 PM
Added the straw purchase question. We'll have all the holiday problems covered soon :)

Please forgive the odd order of some posts, a side effect of merging. Just trying to keep all the holiday questions in one place.

kb58
December 7, 2011, 04:27 PM
I'm in the dreaded California everyone hates. I just purchased two Ruger Mk IIIs (sequential numbers) with the intention of giving one to my wife for her birthday. I mentioned it to my FFL at the time and I'm pretty sure he said that it has to go through him. Are the rules you guys quoting above Federal or state... though even as I type this I realize that Cali probably did something different anyway...

Sam1911
December 7, 2011, 04:33 PM
These are FEDERAL laws. The states may be more restrictive. CA IS.

Here is the first line from the NRA's sheet on CA:

All firearms sales, transfers, including private transactions and sales at gun shows, must go through a California licensed firearms dealer.
An application for sale or transfer must be made with a licensed California gun dealer before any firearm may be sold or transferred.
...
No person shall purchase or transfer a handgun to
someone without the recipient possessing a HSC.

However, the good news is that you don't have to go through the waiting period with immediate family.

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/CASL.pdf

kb58
December 7, 2011, 04:47 PM
Yeah okay, thanks. Right now things are at a tentative stage, with my wife still thinking that guns are evil. It would probably be best to just loan it to her at the range, at least until the novelty wears off. I doubt her getting grilled by a gun-loving FFL is going to spin things in a positive direction, lol.

Thanks again.

CoRoMo
December 7, 2011, 05:35 PM
State laws may vary, but federally, you can loan a firearm to a non-prohibited person.

Now, there is an internet interpretation of the law that would put a borrower in violation of the law if the loaner is from another state and the gun is borrowed outside of that state. But despite the inharmonious wording of the law, the ATF has told me that they don't interpret it that way. Here's what their FAQ says...
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-acquire

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

... A person may loan .. a firearm to a resident of any State...

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

... A person may borrow .. a firearm in any State...
I keep meaning to send a letter to their Rregulatory Enforcement office, but I'm lazy.

Sam1911
December 7, 2011, 05:51 PM
I think the issue with that one is that, while you may loan a firearm to a person FROM any state, and while you may borrow a firearm IN any state, going to another state and borrowing a firearm and bringing it home with you violates Title 18, Chapter 44, Part 1, Section 922 (A)(3):

" 922. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful—
...
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ... any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, ..."

So it certainly does seem as though you can legally loan something to someone to use while they are visiting, but they can't take that firearm home with them when they go.

CoRoMo
December 7, 2011, 06:47 PM
That's what I was referring to, yes.

There are two ways to borrow a firearm in violation of the written law:

Bring it back into your state (from a lender out of state).
The out of state lender, leaves it with you in your state.

When I spoke to the ATF, I made it clear on these specific points, but was told that they don't interpret it that way (I know the phone call means nothing). You're pushing me boy! I'll write that letter, I will! ;)

So Granpa comes out here to hunt elk with me, has a medical emergency and has to fly back to his state, leaving me with his rifle. I'm breaking federal law by holding onto it... ATF says no, THR says yes! :D

Hondo 60
December 7, 2011, 07:09 PM
Don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I also have a "gifting" question.

I know a person has to be 21 years of age in order to purchase a firearm from an FLL.
But at what age can a person receive a firearm as a gift?

I'm thinking of giving a firearm to my nephew.
He goes with me to the range on a regular basis & it'd be neat for him to have his own gun to shoot.
He's 18 & lives in the same county as I.

CoRoMo
December 7, 2011, 07:16 PM
I think this is the type of thread where hi-jacking is going to be expected/part of the experience. :)

Per Federal law, the minimum age is 18 because the gift (your scenario) is on the same level as if he bought it, not through a dealer, but a private FTF with someone like you. Your state law might say something different than the federal law though.

NavyLCDR
December 7, 2011, 07:37 PM
I know a person has to be 21 years of age in order to purchase a firearm from an FLL.
But at what age can a person receive a firearm as a gift?

I'm thinking of giving a firearm to my nephew.
He goes with me to the range on a regular basis & it'd be neat for him to have his own gun to shoot.
He's 18 & lives in the same county as I.

18 is the age limit in Federal law 18 USC 922 (x) and Wisconsin state law:

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/60

Sam1911
December 7, 2011, 07:59 PM
I know a person has to be 21 years of age in order to purchase a firearm from an FLL.
But at what age can a person receive a firearm as a gift?

21 years of age is the federal minimum to buy a handgun from a dealer. 18 is the federal minimum to buy a rifle or shotgun from a dealer.

Gifting or private sales of a handgun requires that the recipient be 18.

Gifting or private sales of a rifle or shotgun, the legal minimums are set by the states.

Sam1911
December 7, 2011, 08:04 PM
I know the phone call means nothing. You're pushing me boy! I'll write that letter, I will!


Please do! Love to get them to make a statement one way or another. Always fun to see them enforce the law in direct contradiction of the text.

Hondo 60
December 10, 2011, 09:37 PM
CoRoMo, NavyLCDR & Sam1911

Thanks for the replies! I appreciate it.

98C5
December 20, 2011, 03:16 PM
Well, I called an FFL transfer Pawn shop/gun dealer and they said all I need is a document stating the pistol is a gift and for him and myself to sign it.

Sound right?

Sam1911
December 20, 2011, 04:25 PM
Well, I called an FFL transfer Pawn shop/gun dealer and they said all I need is a document stating the pistol is a gift and for him and myself to sign it.
The document isn't necessary. All that is required is that they process a Form 4473 for the transfer.

CoRoMo
December 20, 2011, 04:54 PM
Is 98C5 talking about a gift across state lines or just within his state?

Sam1911
December 20, 2011, 05:05 PM
Is 98C5 talking about a gift across state lines or just within his state?

He said:
My fiance and I are traveling to Georgia in 2 weeks to see her son and wife. I plan to give one of my pistols as a gift. I have a CCW that is good through South Carolina. Looks like it is ok to go through Georgia as long as they are unloaded and in a case.

Can I just take him to a local FFL and have them put the pistol in his name?


It appears he wants to give a gun as a gift to someone in another state.

CoRoMo
December 20, 2011, 05:09 PM
Oh yeah. He's the OP and we're on page 2!

Dang me.

I tried to warn him!

Sam1911
December 20, 2011, 05:11 PM
:D

"Dang me, dang me!
They oughta take a rope and hang me
High from the highest tree
Woman would you weep for me."

outdoorsman1
December 20, 2011, 05:19 PM
Just so you know....

I have a CCW License from the State of Wisconsin and a Utah State Permit, both making it legal for me to carry in many other states...

If anyone out there has an urge or need to give a firearm as a gift, I would be happy to provide the address of my FFL dealer.....:D

Add you have my word I would give them all good homes by keep them fed regularly along with regular bathing, and every night, telling each and every one of them how much I love them...

Don't you just love Christmas...

Outdoorsman1

NavyLCDR
December 20, 2011, 05:26 PM
Well, I called an FFL transfer Pawn shop/gun dealer and they said all I need is a document stating the pistol is a gift and for him and myself to sign it.

Sound right?

Without the FFL transfer which means a form 4473 and NICS check done by the FFL, your signed document would be documenting (confessing) that two felonies were committed.

98C5
December 20, 2011, 08:11 PM
Not a problem all.

I will in fact do the FFL transfer when I get there.

I appreciate everyones advice!!

Thanks!

JASEDS
December 22, 2011, 03:30 PM
Is a background check needed if the person recieving the gift already has a CCW permit

Ultravox
December 22, 2011, 03:41 PM
Just as an FYI, Minnesota changed their law this year and all handgun and assault weapon transfers now require the MN resident to either have a Permit to Purchase or a CCW permit or the seller needs to fill out a transfer form and turn it in to the local chief of police.

This is now true for person to person transfers as well as FFL transfers.

The statute in question: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.7132

Librarian
December 22, 2011, 03:51 PM
I'm in the dreaded California everyone hates. I just purchased two Ruger Mk IIIs (sequential numbers) with the intention of giving one to my wife for her birthday.

I mentioned it to my FFL at the time and I'm pretty sure he said that it has to go through him.

California has an exception for spouses; if you buy the gun, it's probably community property anyway, but you can 'transmute' the gun to your wife's property by filing a form with a fee - no need to see your Friendly Local FFL twice.

See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

CoRoMo
December 23, 2011, 11:43 AM
Is a background check needed if the person recieving the gift already has a CCW permit

Welcome to THR!

If the gift crosses state lines, the transaction must go through a dealer, which would include a form 4473 and *usually* a NICS background check. Now, if the recipient's state is one that allows buyer to present a carry permit in lieu of the NICS check, then the transaction would go through a licensed dealer, the form 4473 filled out, and the carry permit would substitute for the background check.

My state isn't one that utilizes the carry permit substitution practice, so I'm only about 98% sure on what I'm telling you here, but this is what I understand it to be.

MrBlonde
January 15, 2012, 01:26 PM
I live in SC and I was thinking about gifting a handgun to my sons mother for home protection. Would I have to take her to a ffl and get it transferred to her or can I just give it to her?

Sam1911
January 15, 2012, 02:13 PM
I live in SC and I was thinking about gifting a handgun to my sons mother for home protection. Would I have to take her to a ffl and get it transferred to her or can I just give it to her?


If she lives in another state, then absolutely, YES.

If she lives in SC, then these rules apply: http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/SCSL.pdf

Doesn't seem to be any prohibition against private, person-to-person sales, trades, or gifts of handguns or long-guns.

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