"Red Dot in Reduced Rifle Loads" IS THIS SAFE?


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andym79
December 7, 2011, 08:00 AM
Just trying to gather opinions on this, seems an awfully risky practice to follow to me!

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

Essentially what is says is:
The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely

Fair enough!

It is refers to as
Quote
THE LOAD
and works on the presumption that you can just use 13grs of RED DOT so long as:
1. The case is bigger than a Savage 300
2. Modern rifle
3. Typical bullet weight for cartridge!
4. Don't use fillers!

A road to destruction of rifle and face?

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BeerSleeper
December 7, 2011, 08:07 AM
It is my opinion that this is a terrible idea.

jungle
December 7, 2011, 08:22 AM
The writer, C.E. Harris, knows more about guns and loads than most of us ever will. The load is safe and well tested, both in other published sources and by many other users. As always, you must follow the caveats.

Such reduced loads allow a lot of flexibility in rifles and may be used for small game or economical practice.

GP100man
December 7, 2011, 08:33 AM
I shoot 16grs. of 2400 under a Lyman 314299 with GC in 30-06 & it`s more accurate than I am !!!

243win is scarey accurate with 9gr of 700x & a 100gr lead boolit !!

3030 gets reddot in 8gr doses or 700x, but it`s doable in bout any rifle cartridge ,some take a filler to keep the powder to the base for consistent ignition.

Go here & use the search option for your caliber : http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=45

kingmt
December 7, 2011, 09:22 AM
Post 1 doesn't make since.

It is safe as long as your safe. If your not safe then it isn't safe to use.

Walkalong
December 7, 2011, 09:45 AM
of 700x I have used 700X for small rifle cases as well. Blue Dot is used in .223 by folks. One fellow here swears by it in 6PPC cases.

MrOldLude
December 7, 2011, 12:25 PM
With enough experience and good sense, I'm sure a lot of non-standard powder charges are possible. But I don't have the time, patience, guts, or extra-guns to risk by deviating beyond published data.

I'm just as happy not reinventing the wheel.

TonyT
December 7, 2011, 12:30 PM
I believe the real old Lyman reloading manulas from the 1950's had reduced velocity loads using Red Dot powder.

dogrunner
December 7, 2011, 01:07 PM
I've used the stuff in my M/70 under a 173 Gr. Lyman hard cast w/GC. Lube is Javelina brand alox, kapok filler. Very, very accurate & utterly no pressure indications. As I recall my load was around 12 grains. Actually the stuff is quite similar to Unique. You'd get more info from Castboolits.com.

Steve C
December 7, 2011, 01:44 PM
This is a posting I copied 17 years ago by Ed Harris on using Red Dot in rifle loads.

Ä Fidonet: Firearms Echo (1:270/615) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ FIREARMS Ä
Msg : #11392 [400]
From : Ed Harris 1:109/120.3006 12 Mar 94 08:29:14
To : All 14 Mar 94 07:37:12
Subj : Red Dot Rifle Loads Pt. I
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

(If you missed this when it appeared in Handloader's Digest, 10th Ed. here it
is again...

By C.E. Harris, Revised 2-16-94

My success in economizing by using up leftover shotshell powder has changed my
approach to handloading. I had a caddy of Red Dot, and no longer reloaded
shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?" My shooting is now
mostly high-power rifle. I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice
offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't
want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to be cheap, but today is
$20/lb. (or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual
reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and
concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.
Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it
work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast
Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! Red Dot
is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It
occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle
powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red
Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental
double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" IS 13
grains of Hercules Red Dot, in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger.
"The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within
certain limitations, which are:

1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898) design, suitable for smokeless
powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they
necessary).

Within these restrictions I have now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The
bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the
.30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the
8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65
Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70
(strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs.
is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield -- Ed.) Though I
have not tried it, I have no doubt that "The Load" would work well in other
cartridges fitting these parameters, such as the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester,
.375 H&H or .444 Marlin, based on RCBS and Lyman published data.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an
accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately
obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should
whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal
variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge
weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of
similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated
flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do
no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor
recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle
loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups
can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is
no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter
barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or
1600 with a 150-gr. cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's
deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys
(10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are
about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.

-- continued next message --

In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed

--- msged 2.05
* Origin: Home of Ed's Red (1:109/120.3006)


Ä Fidonet: Firearms Echo (1:270/615) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ FIREARMS Ä
Msg : #11393 [400]
From : Ed Harris 1:109/120.3006 12 Mar 94 08:35:34
To : All 14 Mar 94 07:37:14
Subj : Red Dot Rifle Loads, Pt. II
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

--- continued from previous message --

Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second, but "The Load"
starts to slow down in barrels over 28", such as the M91 Moisin-Nagant and long
Krags or 98a Mausers.

My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. of .22 backstop
scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft
"Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25 tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The
Load" drives soft- cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion,
but without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and
kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when
placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The
Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast
bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr.
cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter
are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not
have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their
caliber.

The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower velocities
than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in
the bore. The 85-gr. or 100-gr. Hornady or 90-gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R
Mag. revolver, or the Remington 100-gr. .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild,
but destructive varmint loads at 1600 f.p.s. from a .308 or '06.

If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet,
designed for higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a
non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots
close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards! A more accurate and
effective small game or varmint load uses a flat-nosed 150-gr. pr 170-gr.
.30-30 bullet instead. These don't expand at the 1400-1450 f.p.s. obtained
with "The Load", but their larger frontal area improves killing power compared
to roundnoses or spitzers.

I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for
cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I
use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight
groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72
or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can
be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice ion the Garand as well.
These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite
their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the
deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as
well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win.
barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06,
7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load
velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great
practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads
helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle
without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the
ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at
using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection
blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would
expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your
Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50
grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140
rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.).
Substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6
cents which is a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater
savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by
varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed
and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is
very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge
weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders.

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of
powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This
approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost
everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for
routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I
seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target
barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work
more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical
powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and
more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting
with 13 grains of Red Dot!

In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed

--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: None (1:109/120.3006)

snuffy
December 7, 2011, 03:05 PM
It is my opinion that this is a terrible idea.

Everybody's entitled to an opinion. As long as it's based on experience, which yours is not. "the load" has been used by millions of us older shooters for over 30 years. Apparently you never heard of it before.

zxcvbob
December 7, 2011, 03:17 PM
It works. Don't use any filler. POI will be lower.

BeerSleeper
December 7, 2011, 03:23 PM
Too many stories that start off with pistol powders in rifle rounds do not end well.

It may work, and plenty of folks may like it, but that doesn't make it a cautious thing to do.

I do hope anyone intending to do this is very careful in doing so.

Maple_City_Woodsman
December 7, 2011, 04:23 PM
There is no reason to load any kind of reduced load with anything other than Trail Boss these days.

R.W.Dale
December 7, 2011, 04:28 PM
There is no reason to load any kind of reduced load with anything other than Trail Boss these days.

Agreed

While its technically possible to still use a rotary phone why would you bother? The same goes for "the load" save the phone doesn't blow your face off and kill you when dial the number slightly wrong

posted via tapatalk using android.

dogrunner
December 7, 2011, 07:11 PM
Oh yeah, and lead bullets are "passee' " as well. IF you are inexperienced. as is obvious, then DON'T experiment, DON'T take the word of those that intelligently do, and remain "chicken littles"!

I'll add that I'd bet money that none of you nay sayers have much if any time in the re-loading game. How about paper patching '06s to nominal jacketed bullet velocity. For that matter how about the same in .338 WM? Spend some time in the game before you declare an issue unsafe or ill advised!

For that matter how many of you have even used surplus bulk.....I suppose Trail Boss.......is the "safe" approach and 860/844/872/846 et al is ill advised too.

snuffy
December 7, 2011, 09:11 PM
While its technically possible to still use a rotary phone why would you bother? The same goes for "the load" save the phone doesn't blow your face off and kill you when dial the number slightly wrong

posted via tapatalk using android.

Well, I just bought a pound of red-dot just because of this thread. I was always going to try it, just never got aroun-to-it-. I have several choices of home cast boolits and a 03-a3 to shoot them in.

I recently tried some of those boolits in it using another old time pistol powder, WW-630. They shot quite nicely, no leading, no damage to anything besides the nice holes in the target.

BTW R.W., how about disabling that tapatalk commercial? Companies pay for adds on this forum, allowing that to stay on this board is like a free commercial for tapatalk AND android.

SlamFire1
December 7, 2011, 09:30 PM
C. E. Harris was doing the best he could with the powders of the era, so lets give him a break.

I think there are better choices today, AA5744 and Trail boss. Accurate Arms says AA5744 was developed in big blackpowder cases, like the 45-120. Trail Boss is bulky. Very bulky.

With these powders, no one ever need use reduced charges of rifle powders or pour pistol powders in rifle cases.

David Wile
December 7, 2011, 09:40 PM
Hey folks,

Maybe something is going over my head here, but I do not understand part of Harris' premise. If I read his "Red Dot Load" article correctly, he seems to be saying that Red Dot takes up more space than 2400 which I know is a slower burner than Blue Dot. My "common sense" tells me that 2400 should take up more space than Red Dot, but, then again, common sense isn't always common.

I know I could go down in the basement and start looking up loadings with Red Dot and 2400 and see which comparable loads take up more space, but I just got a cortisone shot in the hip, and I do not feel like getting out of my chair.

Can you folks tell me what I may be missing here or if I am just plain wrong about comparable loads of Red Dot and 2400 actually having 2400 taking up more volume? Does that make sense at all?

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

GaryL
December 7, 2011, 09:45 PM
I know a couple guys well into their 70's who used to load up reduced loads in 30-06 with 2400 and red dot. It makes sense that it requires a fair amount of unused case capacity, which would provide expansion room and keep a powder like red dot from burning at its 'normal' rate in a small capacity case.

rsrocket1
December 7, 2011, 11:36 PM
According to this chart (http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/powder.pdf), 2400 is about twice as dense and will take up about half the volume of an equal weight of Red Dot. 0.0742 cc/grain of 2400 versus .1413 cc/grain of Red Dot.

My load is 8-12g Unique for .308. 11 grains pushes a 110g RNP bullet to 1740fps with a recoil and report like a 22 magnum. Really fun load. I've also heard of folks using the 110g frangible pressed lead powder with about 8g Unique for fun plinking. I like the plated bullets because its a little tougher and can handle 2000+ fps if needed.

I wouldn't hesitate using the same load in a 30-30 or 30-06 or other similar rifle.

The interesting thing is that in a 22 inch barrel, many pistol powders are fully burned by the time they reach the end of the barrel and the same load with different powders yield almost the same muzzle velocity. 11g of Red Dot, Bullseye, Unique and Power Pistol all come within 100 fps of each other.

mac60
December 7, 2011, 11:39 PM
13 gr. Red Dot, or "the load" as detailed by C.E. Harris is safe. Refer to the Lyman cast bullet handbook 3rd edition and you'll see that Red Dot is well represented, and in fact in .30-06 and quite a few other cartridges 13 gr. RD is a "published load". 2400 and RD along with other powders commonly used in handgun/shotgun loading along with cast bullets let me do a lot of shooting for my money.

res45
December 7, 2011, 11:52 PM
I've been shooting the 13.0 gr. Red Dot or 16.0 grs. 2400 loads in my Mosin rifle for a couple years as well as several other calibers. I also shoot 8.0 grs. Red Dot in my 30-30 reduced loads. Get yourself a Lyman Cast Bullet manual they have reduce loads for about any rifle cartridge you can imagine using fast to Med. fast burning powders with cast lead bullets.

Sav. 30-30 50 yds. 8.0 grs. Red Dot 170 gr. Lee RNFP tumble lubed,no gas check.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/res45/scan0001-1-1.jpg

Shmackey
December 7, 2011, 11:57 PM
My two light-load rifle powders: Trail Boss for powderpuff and ~70% of max H4895 for creampuff. :)

Both of these can't be double-charged and are in fact recommended by their manufacturers.

mgmorden
December 8, 2011, 12:02 PM
BTW R.W., how about disabling that tapatalk commercial? Companies pay for adds on this forum, allowing that to stay on this board is like a free commercial for tapatalk AND android.

Its added by default when using Tapatalk (it can be disabled, but not everyone digs in the settings). Considering that the board administrators SPECIFICALLY have to add support for Tapatalk to the forum, I'm guessing they're ok with it doing its default behavior.

R.W.Dale
December 8, 2011, 05:25 PM
Its added by default when using Tapatalk (it can be disabled, but not everyone digs in the settings). Considering that the board administrators SPECIFICALLY have to add support for Tapatalk to the forum, I'm guessing they're ok with it doing its default behavior.

I keep it because if my posts aren't as ship shape as they could be when it comes to quoting, spelling or sentence structure folks will know why.

As mentioned above the administration has to allow the tapatalk plugin so I'm guessing they have their own reasons for doing so. Which are greatly appreciated

posted via tapatalk using android.

gamestalker
December 8, 2011, 05:58 PM
I've know a guy who has been using Red Dot and lead bullets lightly dusted with lapping compound to lap his barrels for many years, never had a probelm I'm aware of. I don't personally do this, but I really don't have a need to.

35 Whelen
December 8, 2011, 09:40 PM
It is my opinion that this is a terrible idea.


If anyone who believes this load is unsafe has any experience with it, I'd certainly like to hear from them. Otherwise, your opinions are just that....opinions.

In my EXPERIENCE, the load is very safe and I trust it far more than full throttle hunting loads. I seriously have fired several rounds of this load mainly in three different 30-06's, but also in several Mosins. It's an extremely accurate load, hence the name "The Load".
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/03A3/314299RedDot.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/03A3/31129110shot.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/03A3/311291Targetmod.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1903/P6280004.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1903/P6280003.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1903/P6280002.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1903/P6280001.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Cast%20bullets/314299group.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/M44/M44100ydgroup-1-1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/M44/Targetscloseup3a.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Target%201903A3/03A3afterbedding.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Target%201903A3/03A3afterbedding-1.jpg

There are more, but surely everyone gets the idea.

I took a look at my RCBS Cast Bullet Manual and they list loads with Red Dot starting with the .223 Rem and going on up through the 30-06, 338 Win Mag, 358 Win, etc.
All of my Lyman manuals from the old 50's versions, up through and including their very latest 49th Edition include cast bullet loads using Red Dot in centerfire rifle cases.
Really, if you want opinions on this load, why not ask handloaders who actually use it such ass those at the Cast Boolit website?

It is safe as long as your safe. If your not safe then it isn't safe to use.

Exactly. So, if you're careless, unsafe, inexperienced, accident prone or just plain AFRAID, then DON'T use this load.

Incidently, Mr. Harris can be contacted via the The Cast Bullet Association Inc. Forum (http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/).

35W

kingmt
December 9, 2011, 01:05 PM
I like what I use better tho. It is around the burn rate of Blue Dot. Since you can't get what I use then I'd suggest BD. I also use jacketed so I can't say how it works with lead.

I load .223, .243, & 410, with ~BD alot. I have used RD in 30-06 with pulldown 147's(maybe they were 165's) & had good results. About 2.5" @ 100yds with a rifle that only gets 1.25" with my best load so far.

Jim Watson
December 10, 2011, 01:43 AM
Mr Harris said why he came up with The Load:
"I had a caddy of Red Dot, and no longer reloaded
shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?""
No mad scientist in the laboratory here.

I prefer 700X for shotshells, so I tried 12 grains of that with cast bullets in .30-06.
It shot accurately, the only thing better was 19 gr 2400 and a HARD bullet.

Stumper
December 10, 2011, 02:45 AM
Red Dot works great for reduced power rifle loads.
Certainly people are welcome to use other powders for their special purpose loads but RedDot is exceedingly economical, available, versatile , and proven. Those who don't know how to load reduced power loads for high intensity cartridges utilizing fast burning powders should not try to doso unless they are willing to learn how to it safely. Those who don't know probably should recognize that they are ill equipped to opine....but those who don't know that they don't know continue to do so readily.

zxcvbob
December 10, 2011, 05:12 PM
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e138/hellagnarcal/marathon.jpg

Redbeard55
December 11, 2011, 01:34 PM
100% agreement with Jungle. As far as I'm concerned C.E. Harris is god among mortals. The article that everybody references also lists loads for 3 different power levels. Some of these loads are well below shown in most reloading manuals - when you can even find data. For a couple of years now I've been working on gallery loads. Accuracy is typically great when in the 900-1200 fps range with nearly any caliber and bullet. It has opened up a whole new world for me. Getting to the age when I simply can't handle long range sessions with deer caliber rifles. With 6.5 grains of Green Dot I've loaded 11 different calibers. I'm enjoying extended range sessions just plinking away at metal gongs. Recoil is hardly noticeable and good to great accuracy. Allows me to practice off hand shooting as much as I want. If you look at what the Cowboy Action shooters are doing, they are essentially duplicating the work of CE Harris. The following website lists various cowboy and modern calibers. http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm. There are neat graphs which show the relationship between velocity and accuracy. Nearly any of my old military scoped rifles with shoot 1 hole groups at 25 yards. With open sights it is easy to score hits on metal gongs. Simply move the military sights up to 400 or 500 yards to get point of range at plinking distance. Still checking out accuracy for 50 yards and beyond. At first I was a little anxious about sticking a bullet in the barrel. Have now shot 1500-2000 of these low velocity cast bullet loads. Not a single stuck bullet.

snuffy
December 11, 2011, 04:45 PM
Is it safe?
__________________
"Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" —Kenny Rogers

Still trying to figure out what that dude is doing???¿

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e138/hellagnarcal/marathon.jpg

zxcvbob
December 11, 2011, 04:57 PM
That's the evil ex-Nazi dentist that was torturing Dustin Hoffman in "Marathon Man". He kept asking "Is it safe?" (Sorry, obscure literary reference; I do that sometimes) IIRC, he's holding a dental pick and a bottle of clove oil, implying that Hoffman (I don't remember the characters' names) has a choice.

David Wile
December 11, 2011, 06:00 PM
Hey folks,

Say hello to Sir Laurence Olivier.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

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