9mm NATO vs 9mm luger


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SorenityNow
December 10, 2011, 11:04 PM
Hey all, the other day at my range I saw some Winchester Ranger 9mm Nato ammo. The great thing is that it was only about $12 a box. Would this make a good alternative load to my hollow point ammo?, and can I shoot this ammo out of my Glocks? Any feedback would be great. My SD load is always 124 gr Speer Gold dot, but if I can load up on good Nato ammo at HALF the price then I will. Thanks everyone

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beeenbag
December 10, 2011, 11:16 PM
It will shoot in your glock but most likely it is fmj if it is NATO. All NATO is is an international way of "naming" calibers, mainly for military purposes. This is why 7.62 by 51 is also known as .308 win. The geneiva convention banned all hollow point ammo for combat usage. Therefore if it is labeled NATO it's probably fmj and not a #1 choice for defense ammo. There is more to the story if you care to look it up. I personally have never seen 9mm ranger "nato" rounds so you may be on to something being as ranger ammo is a hollow point. 5.56 NATO is a higher pressure .223 rem. So it might be like a +p or something. Pardon any grammer or spelling, I hate this ipod, it thinks it is so much smarter than I am.

mgmorden
December 10, 2011, 11:20 PM
The geneiva convention banned all hollow point ammo for combat usage.

Actually it was the Hague Convention, which we're technically not signatories of, though we honor most of what it laid out as a good faith gesture anyways.

In any event, yep, 9mm NATO is 9x19mm Luger. The NATO loading in particular is usually a hotter 124gr load, but its still just a particular type of 9mm Luger - various commercial loadings are of various power factors.

Personally if you want a relatively hot practice load and don't want to reload, go to AIM Surplus and pickup some of the Aguila 124gr FMJ's they have. They're loaded a lot hotter than most domestically produced 9mm stuff and they're $9.95 per box.

beeenbag
December 10, 2011, 11:25 PM
Learn something everyday, thanks for the correction.

usp9
December 10, 2011, 11:51 PM
The NATO ammo is excellent practice ammo as it is a higher pressure round than normal cheap practice ammo. Were I you, I'd stick to a quality self defense round to carry IMHO.

9mmepiphany
December 11, 2011, 01:03 AM
Would this make a good alternative load to my hollow point ammo?
No, it would not be a good alternative. I will likely be a bit hotter, but it isn't optimized for defensive use

Carter
December 11, 2011, 02:29 AM
I use the winchester ranger nato ammo for practice. There are great deals for it online if you buy it in bulk.

My brother read one of the boxes one day while he was in town for my wedding (he's in the Navy) and saw the LE only line and asked how I was able to buy it. I was tempted to be a smart ass with a exaggerated shady story, but I just set a few things straight.


Anywhoooo, great ammo, but wouldn't want to use it for SD. Just think of the Indiana Jones scene where he shoots through 6 people with 9mm fmj...just not as extreme.

legion3
December 11, 2011, 05:30 AM
Its good practice ammo and it would be good stok up and have SHTF defense ammo if you had to use it as such but quality hollow points would still be better all the way around.

I like it to use for practice because my carry round is the Ranger 127 +P+ or the HST 124 +P and I need the hot NATO or some of the hot European ammo in the 124 flavor to come close to matching the feel of the +P+.

GaryM
December 11, 2011, 12:17 PM
9mm Nato = 9mm Luger = 9mm Parabellum = 9x19.
Different names for the same thing. Watch out for a "+P" though, same ammo but loaded hotter.

Walt Sherrill
December 11, 2011, 03:50 PM
Not the same.

According to a couple of sources on the web, the SAAMI pressure for 9mm Luger ammo is around 35,000 PSI, while the 9mm NATO rounds are rated at 36,500 PSI.

That means the 9mm NATO ammo is roughly equivalent to a 9mm +P load, which SAAMI rates around 36,000 PSI.

481
December 11, 2011, 07:12 PM
Not the same.

According to a couple of sources on the web, the SAAMI pressure for 9mm Luger ammo is around 35,000 PSI, while the 9mm NATO rounds are rated at 36,500 PSI.

That means the 9mm NATO ammo is roughly equivalent to a 9mm +P load, which SAAMI rates around 36,000 PSI.
Well, since the Glock 17 is rated to safely fire ammo loaded to 3000 bar (that's 43500 psi) it oughtta be able to handle the NATO stuff without a problem.

Looks like the OP can buy all that he wants and blast away to his heart's content.

gofastman
December 11, 2011, 09:04 PM
That means the 9mm NATO ammo is roughly equivalent to a 9mm +P load, which SAAMI rates around 36,000 PSI.
9mm+P has a max pressure of 38,500psi, 9mm NATO is sort of in the middle of regular and +P.
Well, since the Glock 17 is rated to safely fire ammo loaded to 3000 bar (that's 43500 psi) it oughta be able to handle the NATO stuff without a problem.
Yes I agree. It is my feeling the 9mm glocks are designed to optimally function with 9mm NATO, which is why I'm such a proponent of +P ammo in them for serious use.

barneyrw
December 11, 2011, 10:44 PM
There's nothing wrong with FMJ ammo for defense. The world has been fighting wars with it for a 100 years. Forty some years ago, .45 acp and 5.56 FMJ worked just fine for me.

Skylerbone
December 11, 2011, 11:02 PM
There are right and wrong places to use certain bullet styles. I'd prefer hard cast over hollow point for woods carry SD but swap that for home defense or urban carry. It's the reason so many styles still exist and so few are obsolete.

9mmepiphany
December 12, 2011, 01:38 AM
The world has been fighting wars with it for a 100 years.
As mentioned in post #3, that is do to following the guidelines set down at the Hague Convention.

As private citizens, those restrictions do not apply to prevent the use of ammunition optimized for defensive use

mljdeckard
December 12, 2011, 01:51 AM
Just because the military has been using it for a long time doesn't mean it is the best choice. There has been a generational leap in bullet technology in the last 25 years, which makes premium JHP ammo vastly more effective than previous loads. But the military, NATO, et al, are so overloaded by beurocracy and misplaced fear of public concern, they won't catch up. The 9mm NATO load is 100 year-old technology.

I would use it for practice in any modern firearm, but I would use something else for defensive carry. I might also add, if it were a .45, I would be much less concerned about carrying FMJ loads. 9mm is faster and smaller, and less likely to stop.

barneyrw
December 12, 2011, 03:11 AM
FMJ is just fine for defensive loads. A lot of people have seen too many zombie movies. If it will put down an enemy soldier, it will certainly stop someone breaking into your house. Now some of the specialty loads will have more stopping power but again we aren't dealing with crazed zombies.

mljdeckard
December 12, 2011, 03:25 AM
All bullets are deadly. But some are much more likely to stop than others. Fast 9mm FMJ is near the bottom of the list. If FMJ is fine for defensive loads, find any reputable instructor or police agency that uses them.

All handgun rounds suck. None of them are good enough. You need to give yourself every possible advantage when you are fighting for your life. When a bad guy twice your size is charging, you don't want the last thing to go through your mind to be; "I REALLY should have gone with the hollow-points." It's not as much of an advantage as some guys think it is, but it absolutely is an advantage, and I will use it.

cactus02
December 12, 2011, 06:44 AM
The advantage to the Winchester "NATO" ammo is that it is mil spec sealed while most other brands of fmj are not. Also the Winchester "NATO" ammo is taper crimped much tighter than practice ammo so it has has much higher pull resistance and somewhat looser fit in chambers for reliability. I pulled a couple with a press mounted puller and had a real battle getting the round apart while practice winchester WB , Speer,Federal and Remington are seperated with little effort and are not sealed. PMC has sealer in segments around the bullet but not fully around and does not appear to seal primers. FWIW

Apocalypse-Now
December 12, 2011, 07:01 AM
I personally have never seen 9mm ranger "nato" rounds so you may be on to something being as ranger ammo is a hollow point.

winchester has been making fmj ammo in 9mm and 40cal under the ranger brand name for years.

mgmorden
December 12, 2011, 11:42 AM
FMJ is just fine for defensive loads. A lot of people have seen too many zombie movies. If it will put down an enemy soldier, it will certainly stop someone breaking into your house. Now some of the specialty loads will have more stopping power but again we aren't dealing with crazed zombies.

Not sure the reference there. Zombie movies have never stressed stopping power or round size in the least. As a matter of fact they only seem to need a hit to the head - regardless of size. Accuracy is promoted to the extreme above power.

Indeed, it would seem that you're making the mistake you're accusing others of, as unlike in movies, people do sometime require multiple hits from a handgun to go down, and JHP IS better at that than FMJ.

Quiet
December 12, 2011, 11:48 AM
FMJ rounds have a chance to overpenetrate and keep going down range, unlike JHP rounds which are designed to stop in the target.

Use FMJ rounds for home defense, if you don't mind shooting through the walls of your residence and if you don't like your neighbors.

briansmithwins
December 12, 2011, 12:44 PM
FMJ pistol ammo is the worst type of ammo to use to shoot humans. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.

FMJ pistol rounds are notorious for 'ice pick' wounds where the bullet just makes a small hole and keeps going. They are also the worst for over penetrating and ricochet.

Unless it's disallowed you should be be using some type of expanding ammunition if you might need to shoot a person.

BSW

mljdeckard
December 12, 2011, 01:44 PM
ALL defensive ammo is likely to 'overpenetrate' a human target. If it wasn't, I wouldn't use it. If you are using JHP ammo because it won't go through someone, do some homework. It is meant to penetrate at least 12" in ballistic gel. You want ot ti make a bigger hole all the way through a human target, not halfway.

SigP229R
December 12, 2011, 07:10 PM
I agree with USP9 on this one.

barneyrw
December 13, 2011, 08:09 PM
<<"people do sometime require multiple hits from a handgun to go down, and JHP IS better at that than FMJ.">>

Very true, JHP has more stopping power than FMJ. But that doesn't mean FMJ won't also do the job. JHP is better, but FMJ is also good and will certainly do the job if needed. The military has been using it for a hundred years and done very well with it. Yes I know they are restrained by the Haig Convention but FMJ certainly gets the job done anyway. Someone using FMJ in a defensive handgun is certainly not under armed.

SorenityNow
December 13, 2011, 08:27 PM
The advantage to the Winchester "NATO" ammo is that it is mil spec sealed while most other brands of fmj are not. Also the Winchester "NATO" ammo is taper crimped much tighter than practice ammo so it has has much higher pull resistance and somewhat looser fit in chambers for reliability. I pulled a couple with a press mounted puller and had a real battle getting the round apart while practice winchester WB , Speer,Federal and Remington are seperated with little effort and are not sealed. PMC has sealer in segments around the bullet but not fully around and does not appear to seal primers. FWIW
Thats great info cactus and thanks everyone for your input.. This round would make a SHTF ammo stash, with some hollow point mixed in there too ofcourse

hso
December 13, 2011, 08:35 PM
http://cdn1.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/lgprod/AMM-4310.jpg

If it was this Ranger full metal jacket then, as others have said, it is not defensive ammunition and not an alternative to your hollow points.

Nordeste
December 14, 2011, 09:05 AM
As it has been -well- explained, it's just a higher pressure 9mm with a FMJ bullet. Good for practice ammo, not for defensive purposes.

Sometimes I get some Fiocchi 115 gr NATO to train with, and it feels noticeably hotter than the Magtech 124gr I usually buy at the range. Not sure about this, but some say it's about the same pressure a +P would be.

SorenityNow
December 14, 2011, 11:54 AM
http://cdn1.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/lgprod/AMM-4310.jpg

If it was this Ranger full metal jacket then, as others have said, it is not defensive ammunition and not an alternative to your hollow points.
Yep thats it Hso. $12 a box. I was thinkin of loadin up because I thought nato was a good round

mljdeckard
December 14, 2011, 12:14 PM
Someone left with only a sidearm is always underarmed.

How can you possibly think that it is ok to need more shots to stop the bad guy when you are fighting for your life?

barneyrw
December 14, 2011, 11:49 PM
Anyone who thinks FMJ is not good defensive ammo has obviously never been in a war in actual combat. I have and both 5.56 and.45 acp FMJ saved my life on several occassions. That's not saying that JHP is not better, but FMJ is still good and probably as good as anyone will ever need.

mljdeckard
December 15, 2011, 12:46 AM
It's not a question of good. It's a question of better. I've been there and done that too.

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