[beag_nut]

I am looking for ideas to solve a small problem I have with my .44 cal. Reproduction cap-and-ball revolver. I have seen mention about this elsewhere, but I don’t think the problem has been solved. Namely, my unfired caps tend to fall off the nipples when other chambers are being fired. I changed sizes, from #11 to #10 caps, but that helped only a little. I tried slightly deforming the caps before being installed, but that works only a little better; deforming (squeezing) even more works better, but then the caps don’t fit into the capper, and it is somewhat scary to squeeze a cap which is designed to go off under impact.
In my searches I have never seen a replacement nipple which has any kind of serration to hold the nipples. I read somewhere about someone who applied clear nail polish to help hold them in place, but then one needs to at least wait for the stuff to dry.
Any practical, sure-fire ideas?

[Foto Joe]

There are numerous cures, one of which you've already tried. Keep in mind that chain fires are initiated from either the front or the rear (nipples), loose caps are asking for a surprise one of these days.

Factory nipples are notorious for being sub-par no matter who manufactures the gun. In my experience, replacing them is almost standard operating procedure at the first sign of an issue. Roughly half my guns have replacement nipples. Take a look at TrackoftheWolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/TableList.aspx?catID=14&subID=171&styleID=785&PageSize=25&Page=2)

I suggest either Ampco Bronze or Stainless Steel. Once you replace the nipples with either of these, chances are your troubles will be over.

[Skinny 1950]

I had the same problem with a new (2010) Uberti 1851 .36 cal. the cure was replacing the tapered factory nipples with un-tapered stainless from Track of the Wolf. The factory nipples fit on a Colt 1849 Pocket .31 cal. that I was working on so they are still being used.

[Norton Commando]

Your problem is indeed common. Try replacing the nipples with ones designed for #11 caps. The Ampco nipples that Foto Joe suggested are good ones.

[TheRodDoc]

You might just need CCI brand no. 10 caps. They Fit the smallest nipples best. My Early 70's revolvers all use them. All other brand sizes are to big.

[FreddyKruger]

a slight squeeze seems to do me. that is if i cant find the right caps. try some RWS 1075. on my walker ive used 1055 which are rifle caps and they work even better, they are that little bit longer and so go further down the tapered nipple. but then you need a rifle capper as they dont fit a pistol one.

[BCRider]

I've been making do with a squeeze to ovalize them and that's been working pretty well so far. But if you're doing a lot of shooting in a day it gets pretty hard on the finger tips. I'm looking at deciding which C&B guns I keep and which I sell off. Then I'm going to buy a set of Treso or other aftermarket nipples for all of them which fit the caps I can get correctly.

[Hellgate]

Which brand are you using? If they are Remington, then the CCI#11 may work and for sure the CCI#10. If you are already using CCIs and the #10 is still too big you could still try the RWS#55 which are the smallest made that I know of. Otherwise get the Treso or stainless steel replacement nipples from TOW.

[Skinny 1950]

The Remington #10 cap is longer than the #11 so with the tapered nipple if it is long enough should fit better. With the aftermarket nipples both #10 and #11 caps will work.
Caps falling off or jamming up the works are a PITA :cuss:

[beag_nut]

I have used all the caps mentioned, with no discernible differences between them. It truly makes me wonder what the Civil War dudes had to deal with.
I noticed an old post about a cap crimper, and am trying to ask whether the sketch for same is available (couldn't see one in the old post).
I WILL order some of the TRESO caps, but in my heart I doubt they will be the solution (other than the material, they look identical).
If I can come up with a cap crimper I may modify the nipples to fit (have machine tools).

[mykeal]

I'm sure you meant Treso nipples, not caps, and I assure you they are different.

If you have tried all 5 of the commonly available caps (CCI No. 10 & No. 11, Remington No. 10 & 11 and RSM 1075) with the same results then new nipples are the only possible answer.

[beag_nut]

mykeal: you are correct, I meant nipples.
However, all the nipples offered, from all suppliers, have the same, slightly tapered shape. When used with soft, malleable copper caps, the retention just isn't there. If the caps were harder, and thus had some elasticity, the grip to the nipples would be better. A somewhat similar situation exists in the medical industry, where the "Luer Lock" is used for syringes and similar devices. For that application, all the mating parts have appreciable elasticity (and "stickiness") to help hold the devices together. So if someone has developed a way to form a crimp in the cap, to fit on a nipple with some groove, that would be an improvement.
I still wonder how the Civil War participants dealt with the problem.

[arcticap]

The Colt instructions of the time period recommended to pinch the caps if their fit were too loose so that they would stay in place.
Some reproduction nipples were simply made with cones that are too small to fit the available caps.
Proper fitting caps shouldn't require any additional crimping because they fit snugly enough to where they need to be seated on to the cone by applying some pressure using a push stick, capper, thumb or such.

[mykeal]

beag_nut: If you're not willing to listen to the advice and experience of the rest of the community, I can do nothing more.

[Noz]

The guns are so designed that the fired caps can and will fall off of the nipples to the right as the cylinder is rotated to the next chamber.

[Kaeto]

I have the same problem of caps not staying on the nipples. You advise replacing the nipples but to do so on all of my cap and ball revolvers is cost prohibitive. I have 8 revolvers each with 6 nipples. At $3.99 per nipple that's a bit much on a fixed income like mine.

[col.lemat]

use super glue and be done with it

[andrewstorm]

buy a tin of remington 10 Caps they are the smallest ive found.if that doesnt work buy new nips.

[beag_nut]

Sorry, guys; still no really viable answers (and mykeal: no comment). All the nipples have the same taper, regardless of the materials used. #10 caps are slightly better, but not good enough. Super glue is good for long-term readiness, but not for an afternoon on the range. Deformed caps (deformed enough to stay on) won't fit in a capper.
Anybody else?

[Foto Joe]

Okay, let's step back a minute here. Have you made an attempt to replace the nipples yet??

The viable answer is to do so. ALL nipples are tapered, that's how they keep the caps on. The caps are designed to press down over that taper. As I stated above, factory nipples are notorious for being of poor quality. Companies like Treso engineer their nipples specifically to fit Remington, CCI et. al. The Ampco bronze nipples are very resistant to corrosion and preferred by many here. Stainless also are a good choice, I use both depending upon what I can get my hands on.

If you are dead set against replacing the nipples then your only choice is going to be to pinch the caps, a lot of people do but most of us are too lazy to do so and just change over to a higher quality nipple.

Believe me, there is a difference in nipples and if they weren't tapered you'd have even more problems. If you don't want to change to a higher quality set of nipples then you are left with pinching them and should one come loose and you don't catch it the resulting chain-fire might change your mind about trying different nipples.

We all do things differently, all of our methods are correct for us. Find what works for ya and let us know about it. Our minds can be changed often and we all learn from this forum. But in this particular instance the consensus is change the nipples, learn from those who have learned the hard way.

[rem1858]

Beag nut;

What kind of pressure are you installing the caps with ?

Thumb pressure ? (which is relative to ones ability to push those tiny caps with your thumb).

This may be scary to some, but I push them on with my thumb(I have big hands and big thumbs. LOL), then seat them a little snugger with a 1/4" wooden dowel or safely lower the hammer onto each cap and push on the hammer with my thumb.

I just want to make sure they are seated fully so I do not have to do a double tap on a chamber.
Just like not seating a primer all the way on a smokeless pistol cartridge, the hammer drops, but does not fire cause the hammer just now seated the primer fully, then the next hammer drop on that round ignites it.

I have always been under the impression to not baby firearms.
It is a machine, load it and treat it like you mean it.

If the above does not work, then get new nipples as stated by others.

I dont mean to hash on you, but it is the experience that I have had while only been shooting black powder for a couple years, maybe.
I'm a quick learner, been shooting all kinds of firearms since I was a kid(I am pushing 50 now, boy where has the time gone...)

Hope this helps.
Happy holidays to all

Clarence

[Smokin'Joe]

Caps are easily and symmetrically re-sized using a small socket from a ¼'' ratchet set. Either a 5/32” or 4mm size will work.


http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc510/SmmokingJoe/IMG_02135.jpg
Simply place cap on hard flat surface open side up and apply downward force with the socket. A gentle tap may be required. If the re-sized cap resists being removed from the socket gently grab it with pliers and rock it back and forth.


http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc510/SmmokingJoe/IMG_02165.jpg
I modified my socket slightly with a pointed stone on a Dremel tool to provide a forcing cone of sorts.

[Foto Joe]

See, I learned something new today. Good tip although like I said before, I'm lazy. I'd rather replace the nipples.

[beag_nut]

Smokin'Joe:
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about, a new idea! Time will tell if it's the best one (we engineers know that there's always a better idea), but at least it makes some sense.
FotoJoe:
Tapers work, when the materials have elasticity. Caps don't; they are made from annealed copper or brass.

[Lunie]

Smokin'Joe:
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about, a new idea! Time will tell if it's the best one (we engineers know that there's always a better idea), but at least it makes some sense.
FotoJoe:
Tapers work, when the materials have elasticity. Caps don't; they are made from annealed copper or brass.
beag_nut, I can assure you that caps have elasticity (or at least "enough"). I'm going to use some terms like "usually" and "probably", but caps are going to usually be made of a high-copper alloy, probably either C21000 or C22000. (Unfortunately, I do not know the exact alloys used by various manufacturers.)

About the taper design being inferior and the caps lacking elasticity... For example, CCI #10's are too small for my particular nipples. The skirt on the cap makes a solid contact with the outside taper of the nipple long before the priming compound in the cap can get close enough to the face of the nipple. I'm literally doing this as I am completing this message. Using only moderate thumb pressure, the cap is so firmly seated on the nipple that I can't remove it, even with the cylinder removed so I can get two fingers on the cap. I'm either going to need pliers, or to re-mount the cylinder to my frame and fire it. Because the cap is tight, but the priming compound is not fully seated, it may take 2 or more hammer blows before it will go off. Again, my case is obviously different. These caps are too small, while CCI#11's are slightly oversized, and require pinching on my particular nipples.

If none of the common brands/sized of caps will fit your nipples, they might:

1) Have the correct taper angle and nipple length, but were cut down to an undersized diameter.
2) Have the correct taper but the nipple was not cut short enough (too long).
3) Have an incorrect taper that is too shallow.

In all 3 cases, the cap would bottom out before its skirt had a chance to grip the taper.

If pinching or otherwise resizing your caps is unacceptable, and unless the cause happened to be 2), I would say a new set of nipples. There are several "if"s involved for remedying #2, but buying new nipples is still probably the preferred solution to that as well.

I think makos_goods(?) posted some nice CAD models to illustrate cap fitment and the relative sizes of various cap brands. If I can find it, or someone else does, I think they may help you visualize what is really happening.

Edited to add: I did manage to remove the cap, and a piece of my thumbnail, without aid of hand tools. YMMV

[Foto Joe]

Lunie,

I was looking for the same graphics but the search turned up nada. I was thinking it was mykeal or MCB. It would also be nice to know what gun we're talkin' about here. For all we know a neighbor made this thing in their garage using a hammer and a dremmel tool.

[Lunie]

I think I found what I was looking for. makos_goods posted some of it here http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7432174&postcount=21, and links to other threads: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic=35696.msg489781#msg489781
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic=35422.msg455339#msg455339

[beag_nut]

Many thanks to EVERYONE who has posted to this thread.
I should add that the revolver in question is a "Santa Barbara", made in Spain, reproduction of a Remington New Army 1858. I got it more than ten years ago, in New Hampshire, used pristine, for $99. There are identical others which currently are selling today for over $400. I understand from several sources that it is a superior copy of the Rem, even though the company (in Spain) has gone belly-up. Nowadays it spends its time in Vermont, and I don't visit it and shoot it often in the winter. (Handgun laws are infinitely nicer in VT). When next I visit it I will remove its nipples (ouch) and replace them with Treso's, at the bare minimum. In the meantime I will continue my search for a better way to solve the problem of caps falling off unfired cylinders during the (moderate) recoil of the cylinder in use.
More ideas (similar to SmokinJoe's) are eagerly sought.

[Lunie]

As tempting as it can be, you don't always need to re-invent the wheel. With the right nipple/cap combo, you won't have any further need to search. ;) The caps will stay on tight. Be sure and verify what threads your cylinder needs before you buy a set.

Best wishes and happy shooting to you.

[beag_nut]

Hi, people
Well, regardless of what many said, the Ampco Treso nipples did NOT solve the problem! I bought a set of six, installed them in the cylinder, and then fitted #11 caps, as recommended by the manufacturer. The first shot was OK, then EVERY succeeding shot has one or more of the other nipples fall off, under quite moderate recoil. I only loaded 22 grains of Blackpowder under a .454 ball. I have seen loads mentioned which specify 30 or more grains. I can't imagine how quickly the caps would come loose under those conditions.
Stepping back and looking at everything, the Treso nipples DID have a much better fit to the threads in the cylinder than the original steel nipples did. But a brass/bronze alloy is intrinsically more "slippery" than an iron one, so I can't imagine how they would hold the nipples better. And a close comparison showed that, besides the threaded portion, the new nipples were dimensionally IDENTICAL to the old steel ones.
So, it's back to the drawing board, or back to asking for more constructive ideas. In the meantime, since I won't be visiting the revolver for a couple of weeks, I intend to try to find a die for that metric thread, and make my own nipples with some kind of serration to help hold the nipples.
Any more OTHER ideas?

[arcticap]

I would try the Remington #10's with the Treso's.
It sounds like you only tried #11's with them.
I would try all of the other different caps available if necessary because I wouldn't want to have wasted money on Treso nipples that didn't at least hold some size cap on during moderate recoil.
I don't have any Treso's and I would have bought steel, but everyone else seems to confidently say that some of the many cap brands will fit and work acceptably with them.
There's still the option of pinching the caps until you can figure out what works best with the new Treso's.
Is it possible that you are using old Remington caps that are known to have been made oversize compared to their current production caps?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7943677&postcount=5

[J-Bar]

I would try the Remington #10's with the Treso's.

Yes!

[mykeal]

Tresos are better for retaining caps because they have a smaller flash hole. The smaller hole results in less force on the cap as a result of combustion gas blowback into the nipple channel. The cone dimensions and material are not the reasons they are better.

[beag_nut]

No, I am not using old Remington #11 caps. Recent production. I will try other caps, but I was told that the new Tresos would solve the problem. And #11 caps are what is recommended by the manufacturer.
The size of the small hole has NOTHING to do with retaining caps on unfired chambers. Caps coming off of unfired chambers is what I initially complained about, and is still my problem. That's why I mentioned recoil, which is what causes the caps to fall off an unfired nipple when another one is being fired.

I have tried Remington #10 caps before (and they are NOT recommended on these new nipples) and there was no improvement. Just to repeat: these new nipples are identical in dimension to the old steel ones. And I know how to measure, and have the tools.

[arcticap]

I guess that it's time to try CCI #10's.
Or send the nipples back to the manufacturer along with a complaint.
Track of the Wolf manufactures their own steel nipples that according to some reports, fit modern caps well.
And Blomquist Percussion Works is another custom nipple manufacturer, but their website is down. They can probably make some nipples large enough in diameter to allow a person to customize their fit.

[junkman_01]

No, I am not using old Remington #11 caps. Recent production. I will try other caps, but I was told that the new Tresos would solve the problem. And #11 caps are what is recommended by the manufacturer.
The size of the small hole has NOTHING to do with retaining caps on unfired chambers. Caps coming off of unfired chambers is what I initially complained about, and is still my problem. That's why I mentioned recoil, which is what causes the caps to fall off an unfired nipple when another one is being fired.

I have tried Remington #10 caps before (and they are NOT recommended on these new nipples) and there was no improvement. Just to repeat: these new nipples are identical in dimension to the old steel ones. And I know how to measure, and have the tools.

It sounds like you EXPECT some kind of guarantee of success from these board members. There are no guarantees in this venture. Keep trying different combinations until you find one that works for you. As they say YMMV!

BTW, I use Remington #10's on my Treso nipples with great results.

[Pancho]

I just installed and tried a set of SS TOW's nipples and they are great no pinching, no seating, and no falling off. By the way the SS TOW nipples are less expensive than the Tresos.

[Hellgate]

Beag_nut,
The TOW SS nipples work fine with Remington #10 caps. Try Rem#10s on the Tresos regardless of what the manufacturer says. If caps fall off under recoil it doesn't matter what they say, the cones are too small for tha cap you are using. Teh Tem 10s are smaller than the Rem #11s as are the CCI #11s, RWS#1075 & CCI#10s. I doubt the CCI #10s will fit the Tresos. Get the other sizes first. Otherwise go to Desperado Bullets and get their SliX Shot niples for your gun.
http://www.cowboybullets.com/Products.html (scroll to bottom of products page)

[Smokin'Joe]

I went to the range just last night. I used Winchester #11 caps that were too large for my nipples but that had been resized as explained in Post #22 of this thread. No misfires, no lost caps and no issues.

[beag_nut]

To junkman:
No, I am not EXPECTING an ironclad solution, but I am hoping for one. When person after person writes with supreme confidence that his solution is the answer, one gets the idea that posters to this forum know more than the average shooter.
Although I was, at first, somewhat leery of Smokin' Joe's mechanical reworking of the caps (they ARE explosive), I intend to try that also. So far, after what I have experienced, it makes the most sense right now.
I still am hoping to hear from someone who has modified, or bought modified nipples, with some kind of means to hold the caps much better.
I am even going to visit a couple of re-enactors of Civil War battles (this is the 150th anniversary) to get their ideas.

[Smokin'Joe]

Be aware that re-enactors use blanks which produce different dynamics than live ammo.

[Foto Joe]

I use both Treso and SS from ToTW. I don't find any difference between the two. I've found that CCI #11's work great on both.

No matter what nipples you use, "cap frags" are a fact of life, it's just one of the things that we learn to deal with. Personally I don't mind the occasional hiccup, it's part of the mystique of shooting 19th Century weapons. If you're looking for a more trouble free shooting experience maybe a more modern weapon like a SAA with BP cartridges would be advised.;)

[Noz]

beag_nut, many of us here shoot thousands of rounds a year from our cap pistols.
We know what works and what doesn't.
I currently have 8000 #10 Remingtons on hand and am getting nervous that my stock is so low.

[Pancho]

One of the facts that helped me buy TOW SS nipples was that I was able to talk to the in house machinist that made the nipples and he stated that he designed their nipple for the CCI #11 cap because it was readily available. The proof was in the using and they were great no pinching,no seating,and no falling off. To add to the mix, the guns I'm using them on are 1862 Colt Police which have a reputation for being very cap fussy.

[beag_nut]

To: Pancho
Well, here in CT we get what we can find in the stores. Sometimes CCI is on the shelf, sometimes Rem., sometimes something else. I don't believe (and I am pretty sure about this) that the cavalry guys during the Civil War had much of a choice about which caps they could use on their nipples. So my question, yet again, is what did they do back then to keep themselves from being the victims of "loose caps on their nipples", and what can we today do about the general problem? And it IS a general problem, if one asks around.
I will not buy any more new nipples unless the maker shows that they have made some kind of mechanical improvement, which will work with ALL nipples, of a certain size.

[barstoolguru]

I didn't read through all of it but pinch the caps a little and they stay on just fine

[mykeal]

beag_nut -

Your're right. Nothing's been done. It's a mystery to me why caps ever stay on at all. Guess we'll all just have to stop buying nipples and sit around and pout until they fix it, eh?

[junkman_01]

ROFLMAO http://www.northfloridashooting.com/images/anim_ROFLMAO.gif

[Fingers McGee]

I'd really like to add something constructive to this thread that hasn't already been said - and ignored. I have never, repeat, never had an unfired cap fall off a nipple. Remington # 10s on Treso nipples are a tight fit to begin with, and there generally isn't enough room between the cylinder and recoil sheild for one to fall off - leastwise on all the C&Bs I own there isn't wth the exception of my Dance revolver. As far as cap fragments getting in the action and locking up the pistol, Treso nipples, # 10 Remington caps, and filling the hammer notch with JB weld has made all of the revolvers I use in CAS competition - shooting approximately 1400 rounds throgh '51 Navies, '61 Navies, '60 Armies and a '58 Remington last year - virtually jam proof.

There is a new nipple that has just come on the market called Slix-Shot. It has a different orifice than the Treso, and is cross drilled like the old HotShot nipples were. I've gottn a couple sets of them and should be trying them out this weekend - if the rain holds off. Here are a couple pictures of the new nipple along with a Treso and factory Uberti nipple.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/DSCN1372.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/DSCN1371.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/DSCN1369.jpg

[beag_nut]

Hey, Fingers: you say those nipples are "cross-drilled". Where? I don't see it in the photo you kindly showed.

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/Untitled36-1.jpg

[Fingers McGee]

Yep, That's it, thanks kwhi43. I don't know why my camera wouldn't focus on that shot.

[arcticap]

I don't believe (and I am pretty sure about this) that the cavalry guys during the Civil War had much of a choice about which caps they could use on their nipples. So my question, yet again, is what did they do back then to keep themselves from being the victims of "loose caps on their nipples", and what can we today do about the general problem? And it IS a general problem, if one asks around.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8019868&postcount=45

What they did back then was answered in an earlier post.

The Colt instructions of the time period recommended to pinch the caps if their fit were too loose so that they would stay in place.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7809680&postcount=13

[rem1858]

beag nut;

From post #21, I will ask again(maybe I missed the answer somewhere down the line ?)

How are you seating the caps onto the nipple ?

Are you just placing them on the nipple ?
Are you pushing them onto the nipple ?
Are you seating them onto the nipple ?

I do all 3 when capping.
I place a cap on the nipple and push it on with my thumb pretty hard.
I then do the same to the rest of the loaded cylinders.
Then I seat each cap onto the nipple with a wooden dowl or rest the hammer onto it and push on the hammer(to make sure it is properly seated).

"Seated" is the key word here.

I use CCI #10's on my factory Pietta 1858 nipples.
Use CCI #11's on my ROA and Walker, both having Treso nipples.
Did use #10's on the factory ROA nipples and #11's on the factory Walker nipples

Never have I had a cap come off under recoil on any of these, before or after nipple replacement.
Only reason I installed the Treso's was to go to the smaller flash hole cause the potent loads in the ROA and Walker would blow the hammer back farther then I liked.

Let us know, I can't be the only one with a 100% success rate by firmly seating them with out pinching.

Clarence

[junkman_01]

Clarence,

You made a VERY good point. So many folks are afraid to seat the caps for fear they will go off. Caps do not go off from pressure. The go off from percussion, after all the are called 'percussion caps'. I have squashed 'em flat in a vice to prove the point.

http://s6.postimage.org/yh01d34gd/Caps.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/yh01d34gd/)

[Black Duck Charlie]

beag nut, I freely admit that I am new to shooting C&B, so this IS just from my own (limited) experience. The very first pistol I got was a very used Armi San Marco (I think; there is no manufacturer named on the pistol, only "SM" with the proper Italian proof marks) 1858 Remington from a "pawn shop" (it was abused - it had been fired, but wasn't even cleaned before it was sold to the store owner); it wasn't really a pawn shop, more of a third-hand "thrift" store. I cleaned it up, took the cylinder (with nipples installed) to a "professional" to get some caps; this "professional" even told me to use #11 caps. I went out to an out-of-the-way spot I know and blew out the empty chambers with #11 Winchester "Magnum" caps. The first cap had zero problems -- because it was the first to be fired. By the time I got to the fourth cap, they were starting to fall off. Mind you, this was with EMPTY chambers!

I re-seated the remaining caps, making double-sure they really were seated this time. After firing off the remaining caps, I went home, did some reading on the subject of loose caps and took a close look at the nipples: They were ALL deformed, with just the barest hint of mushrooming, likely caused by that previously mentioned abuse. I didn't have to measure the nipples. You may be an engineer -- but I have worked as a machinist in the past, and I know what to look for in a taper. Those #11s didn't fit correctly because they were being expanded by the mushrooming on the end of each nipple. I admit that I didn't know any better before, but I don't know how that "professional" I had talked to missed those deformed nipples....

I have since purchased a new Pietta 1858 Remington, supposedly with nipples designed for use with "#11 caps". Turns out that #10 Remington caps work best with it -- and no #11 cap I was able to try would fit correctly. Shot three cylinders, each chamber loaded with 30 gr. powder and .454 ball, in that pistol, and ZERO caps have fallen out and ZERO caps have been shaken loose by recoil. Oh, and this is with the nipples the cylinders came with.

My point, beag nut, is that although you are an engineer, and there might just be a "better" way of getting caps to stay on the nipples, the most efficient way seems to be to just find the cap/nipple combination that works best for you. By the way, I have already had to remove caps without firing a chamber, so I could put the pistol down "unloaded" (similar to removing the ammo from any other firearm); having some sort of "locking system" to keep caps on nipples, such as you have already described, would make doing that far too difficult and time-consuming for the "average" shooter.
--------------------------------------------
Engineers may be the ones who design things, but it is the mechanics and users of those things who must make them work...........

[junkman_01]

I made that same point (find a combo that works) in post #36! He didn't listen then, why would he now?

[kbbailey]

#10 caps work perfectly on my Pietta '58. #11 caps need a squeeze, and will still fall off sometimes.

[mustanger]

beag nut: these guys are not "pie in the skying" they are boots on the ground. They are saying what solved the same problem for them. Key word here is solved. The reason they are relaying thier experiences instead of telling you what to do, is they know there is no hard fast solution. Each gun is an indevidual, with it's own likes and dislikes. Hard to figure, but true. Don't try to over engineer, keep it simple. That's the best. What did the cavelry do? or the civil war guys? They made do with what they had, and lived with it ( hopefully). They didn't have 14 different caps or 14 different nipples to choose from and try. They went with the simplest solution available. They either had a good fit, or they made the caps fit, by sqeezing. So count yourself lucky, you have options.

[Black Duck Charlie]

Well, junkman 01, I was hoping that with a detailed explanation of what someone else has gone through, maybe beag nut will "see the light". Nothing ventured, nothing gained.....

[beag_nut]

OK, guys, back off. I have tried everything except the two good ideas from smokin'joe, and that's because they are somewhat dangerous and I want to hear better ideas.
I was a machinist of highly complex, tiny surgical instruments for ten years before "engineerhood", working at the "tenths" (of thousandths) level. Since I didn't spell that out right up front, some figured I didn't know about mechanicals. I do. Very much. I have three patents.
I know that the tapers on nipples are quite similar to the tapers of Luer locks, used in surgical devices, and they work because of the elasticity of the materials being joined. Caps have almost NO elasticity, which is why they fall off tapered nipples. Some are lucky to have their experiences be good enough to suit them. Others pinch their caps (which then won't fit in a capper), while still others use #10 or #11 caps on the same nipples which someone else says doesn't work! Some are contradicting each other, in other words.
I want better ideas. Smokin' joe has a couple of good ideas which I will eventually try, but I resist because of the danger, as I already said, or I initially resisted because it wasn't available to the original users 150 years ago.
If one does not have a logical, different way to solve this "problem", then please don't contribute anything. If your "combo" works for you, even though others have said it won't, then great, but keep it to yourself. If you have designed a better nipple (not an illogical cross-drilled one), let us know, and I may try it, for one.
And stop making judgements about things you don't know.

[Black Duck Charlie]

I haven't seen anything where anyone has said "that won't work", but I have seen plenty of people saying "this works for me, as well as others, but not for everyone". And nobody has said that you don't know anything about mechanicals, just that many engineers tend to over-think things.

The difference between a Luer-lok and a C&B nipple/cap combo is the "male" end of the Luer-lok fitting has screw threads built in -- caps and nipples do not. It is not the "elasticity" which keeps the Luer-lok together. You are referring to the Luer-SLIP fittings which are held together by friction. In drill presses, the spindle and the drill head are also held together with a Luer-slip style fitting, and we all know how non-elsatic steel is. If you really want to have caps and nipples that fit together in the same way as Luer-slip fittings, be prepared to pay at least ten times more for the precision-taper molding/forming of the caps.

[Pancho]

Beag_nut, I've been on this forum for a few years and this problem has been hashed over many times. The root problem is that there really isn't an industry standard for cap dimensions. A couple of years ago one ambitious forum member used an optical comparator to compare the different available caps, the conclusion was that there was no comparison. Even if one were to design a new idea for a nipple such as a knurled one, they would have to pick a particular cap and manufacturer to build to.
I don't know about Treso but I know that TOW SS nipples are built to CCI #11 caps. I know this because I was able to talk to the machinist that designed and made them and he told me that he designed to CCI's standard. It just took a phone call.
To conclude, I believe like TOW, Treso used some cap and manufacturer as a standard to design to. If you can't contact Treso to find out then it's up to you to find out by trying every cap available or buy some nipples made by TOW.

[beag_nut]

Charlie:
Steel is one of the MOST elastic of all solids; look it up. IV's do not use the locking type of Luer, nor is the locking type used when it isn't necc. Again, the caps are not elastic.

[Fingers McGee]

The 'percussin' system has been around for around 200 years; percussion revolvers for 175. Countless individuals have tried to improve on the system with varying degrees of success. I'm afraid beag_nut is looking for something that does not exist.

Signing off

[Black Duck Charlie]

beag nut, the 1 1/2 inch diameter spindle and drill head are NOT at all very elastic. They are far less elastic than any cap used in any C&B gun. When steel stretches -- it tends to not return to its original dimensions. I'm referring to real-world properties, not engineering theories/applications.

[Mike 56]

Treso nipples and #10 Remington caps are hard to beat in fact #10 Remington caps even fit my Pietta nipples good. If #10 CCI caps too big for your new Treso nipples send them back. I like Remington #10s the best but they cost 8.00 a hundred were i live and i can get #11 CCIs 5.00. I shoot a lot so i buy CCI 11s. I re size them with a pair of dollar store wire cutters with a hole drilled in them. It works good for me lets me use a capper. I don't have to pinch the caps before i put them on anymore. I also like Smokein Joes idea i am going to try it.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg95/51colt/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0472.jpg

[Hellgate]

Ingenious crimping tool. Would an electric wire stripper crimper also work?

[Mike 56]

I think it might. I just check my cheap wire strippers and they were to small a better set might have a bigger holes. The hole i drilled in my wire cutters is 11/64. I also checked the crimpers in my fishing pliers and the were also to small.