.44 Special vs. .45 ACP


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BluedRevolver
December 20, 2011, 12:29 PM
Which one do you think is better for self defense? Which has more stopping power?

Both shot out of a revolver.

What about a 230-240 grain .44 Special going 1000-1050 FPS, loaded with a good hollow point? Would that be just as good or better as far as stopping power than a typical 230 grain .45 ACP JHP going 850-900 fps? If so, would it have more recoil, and how much?

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rcmodel
December 20, 2011, 12:36 PM
With commonly available factory loads the .45 ACP is superior.

With handloads, or expensive Buffalo Bore ammo, the .44 Spl is superior.
Handloads can safely push a 240 JHP or 250 grain SWC to 1,000+ FPS in a modern .44 Spl revolver.

Overall, regardless of ammo differances?
For SD use, the .45 ACP revolver is superior, because it uses moon-clipped ammo.

They are measurably faster to reload six rounds then when using speed-loaders with .44 SPL.

rc

2wheels
December 20, 2011, 12:38 PM
They both pack a punch, I'll leave it to the ballistics experts to argue over which is "better".

As for me, the nod goes to .45ACP because it's a bit easier to find and I already own guns in .45ACP. I'd love to get one of those S&W 325 Night Guards.

Ghost Tracker
December 20, 2011, 12:42 PM
Stopping power? The only reason to have a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle or shotgun. That being said, between those two (and they're among the best) I lean toward the .45 ACP. Are you talking both calibers from a revolver? Or are we to take capacity & reload time into account?

dastardly-D
December 20, 2011, 12:45 PM
It's mighty hard to get that 44 Special revolver to jam with H. P's.Either way,they're both are very effective !:D

rcmodel
December 20, 2011, 12:46 PM
How do you get a .45 ACP revolver to jam with HP's?

rc

Ghost Tracker
December 20, 2011, 12:53 PM
How do you get a .45 ACP revolver... Are we certain the OP has clarified that? :cool:

2wheels
December 20, 2011, 12:55 PM
I assumed he was sticking to revolvers since he posted in the revolver forum, could be wrong though.

mavracer
December 20, 2011, 01:10 PM
Which one do you think is better for self defense? Which has more stopping power?
The one that's closer to me at the time.

brnmuenchow
December 20, 2011, 01:14 PM
I wouldn't want to get shot with either one. It is not as hot through the air as a .357 Mag., it's not as powerful as a .45 Colt or .44-40 Win. I don't believe (I typically only run .44 Mag. loads -- So I am no .44 Spec. expert), but still has enough punch to do some real damage. :)

BluedRevolver
December 20, 2011, 01:19 PM
I'm talking strictly revolvers, both .44 spec and .45 acp

mashaffer
December 20, 2011, 01:21 PM
Probably mostly academic as excellent ammo is available for both (see Buffalo Bore for example). In standard bullet weights for caliber .44 spl has a slight advantage in sectional density (.186 v.s. .162) but factory loads and handloads of both lighter and heavier than normal bullets are available for both. Assuming that they are to be used in modern revolvers the choice would be entirely a personal preference IMO. If the ACP is out of an autoloader then of course your options there are not as broad but there are still plenty of really good options.

My preference would be the .44 but can't fault the choice of .45ACP either. And of course .45LC is no slouch either.

mike

BluedRevolver
December 20, 2011, 02:26 PM
i wish ruger made a .45 acp double action revolver...

Loosedhorse
December 20, 2011, 02:46 PM
Yes, you have faster reloads with moonclips. Moonclips help in other ways, too. They are smaller than speedloaders, so that in a double speedloader pouch, you can store 4 loaded full-moon clips. Also...

Revolvers DO jam. Do a bad job of ejecting the empties, and end up with a rimmed cartridge under the extractor star, and you'll see what I mean. Has anyone managed to do that with a full-moon clip? I haven't.

You can max out your revolver with .45 Super loads. If you have a gunsmith lengthen the case-mouth relief cut in the charge holes, you can load .460 Rowland.

Powerful stuff. .460 Rowland can in theory deliver a 255 gr bullet at 1300 fps. (Similar bullet out of a .45 Colt "+P" would be about 1450.)

From unmodified revolvers, .45 Super can deliver that same bullet at 1075. .44 Special can push a 255er (with higher sectional density) to 1000.

So...what was the question? :D

Prosser
December 20, 2011, 04:53 PM
.429" vs. .452"?

LooseHORSE:o gave you a good run down on the ballistics.

At those velocities both are going to be near the top of the handgun area.

The guns that the .44 special is shot out of, with a few exceptions, leave a huge upside for heavy ammo. Buffalobore gets into that:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=88

1300 fps with a 255 grain bullet is nothing to sneeze at.

The pressure for .44 special is very low and between that and .44 magnum
is a long way to play.

Also, the smaller diameter of the .44 special allows more metal in the cylinder, and more strength then the larger .45 Colt.

The advantage of the .44 Special is due to the lower pressure, it can be put in smaller guns, with a smaller diameter cylinder. Result is a easier to conceal
powerful gun. Problem is finding one.

You need to decide if the difference in revolver cylinder size, and the gun you are going to buy is going to make a difference in how you conceal the gun.

Also, you might look at the difference in ammunition cost if you are reloading.

When faced with this choice, I went with the .45's. I could load the same bullets in .45 Detonics, .45 ACP, and .45 Colt.

The .429's only fit in one auto, the AutoMag, that I know of.
Also, at the time, in 1980, 20 rounds of the only .44 Special ammo around, and it was Remington garbage, was 25 dollars a box. :cuss:

On a good note, if you can conceal some of the bigger guns, some of the scandium .44 Magnums are perhaps the best .44 special revolvers ever.

Prosser
December 20, 2011, 05:19 PM
Double tap. Please delete.

Loosedhorse
December 20, 2011, 05:28 PM
1300 fps with a 255 grain bullet is nothing to sneeze at.If you double-check, I think you'll see that the claimed velocity for Buffalo Bore's 255 .44 Special (out of a six-inch barrel) is closer to 1000fps; which is still nothing to sneeze at.

Prosser
December 20, 2011, 05:35 PM
Sorry about the name mistake. I fixed it.:o

From Buffalobore's website:
"Heavy .44 Special Ammo - 255 gr.S.W.C.(Keith-type)G.C.(1,000fps/M.E.566 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box - (for big game up to 500 lbs.)

Real Gun Velocities

1. 6" Ruger .44 Magnum Super Blackhawk

a. Item #14A - 1203 fps
b. Item #14B - 1044 fps

2. 3.25" S&W Model 396

a. Item #14A - 1155 fps
b. Item #14B - 984 fps

Note: This Heavy .44 Special ammunition can be fired in every .44 Special or .44 Magnum gun made EXCEPT CHARTER ARMS .44 SPECIAL BULLDOG.

Item 14B - Exterior Ballistics Charts for several Muzzle Velocities

_______________________________

Muzzle Velocity @ 1300 fps for Item 14B"

It appears I made a mistake, seeing the last line, and so did the website. I think they posted the velocity for 14A as 14B in the last line.

I used to load 240 grain HP's in .44 Special to lowend .44 Magnum velocities.
No problem, other then I shot my gun apart.:banghead:
Charter Arms .44's don't like heavy recoiling .44 ammo.

mavracer
December 20, 2011, 05:38 PM
From unmodified revolvers, .45 Super can deliver that same bullet at 1075. .44 Special can push a 255er (with higher sectional density) to 1000.
An N frame Smith will take the old Keith load that launches 250s a little over 1200. Of course instead of doin that I'm gonna do what Elmer did and go back to the Skeeter load in the Specials and shoot real magnums in my 29.

Loosedhorse
December 20, 2011, 05:43 PM
It appears I made a mistake, seeing the last line, and so did the website.It's tripped me up before, too. I don't think it's a website mistake; maybe they post those tables in case someone (with a really long barrel) chronos the load at 1300; they now have a table. There are multiple tables below that 1300-muzzle-velocity one: a 1200, a 1100, a 1000, etc.

rcmodel
December 20, 2011, 05:45 PM
Just to be fair.

Buffalo Bore +P .45 Auto Rim:
255 gr. H.C. F.N. (1,000 fps/ M.E. 566 ft. lbs)
200 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,200 fps/ M.E. 639 ft. lbs.)
225 gr. Hard Cast Wadcutter @ 1,125 fps/ M. E. 632 ft. lbs.)

Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P
185 gr. J.H.P. (1,150 fps/M.E. 543 ft. lbs.)
230 gr. J.H.P. (950 fps/M.E. 461 ft. lbs.)
255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.)

rc

mavracer
December 20, 2011, 05:48 PM
The advantage of the .44 Special is due to the lower pressure, it can be put in smaller guns, with a smaller diameter cylinder. Result is a easier to conceal
powerful gun. Problem is finding one.

Finding one is bliss:neener:
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/mavracer/SANY0850.jpg

336A
December 20, 2011, 05:48 PM
Mavracer beat me to it, he is correct that the N frame Smits and the new Ruger .44 SPL FT will safely digest the famous Kieth load. They can also push the 200gr Speer GD over 1300fps safely though I believe that is beyond that bullets design limit. Kieths load generated around 25,000 PSI in Whites Lab. Brian Pearce wrote a very good article about the Ruger .44 SPL FT in the Hanloader Mag. He also put together quite a few high performance handloads that stayed in the 25,000 PSI realm using H110, AA#9, and 2400.

Prosser
December 20, 2011, 06:11 PM
I looked at the S*w and the Taurus offerings. For me it's just too big to conceal. That's in my screwed up state, and not using my custom shoulder rig.

As long as it's freezing, I could carry one, but, why stop with a .44 Special?

Skeeter and Keith picked the .44 because it had thicker cylinder walls, and was stronger, due to the smaller case diameter.

That said, in this day and age, a number of .45 caliber guns can be had with
wall strong enough to push out the 25k range loads for the .45 colt.

If this is a house gun, then the ability to conceal is irrelevant. If it's a house gun, then something big, and heavy would be my choice, in .44 Magnum, or .454 and you can load to your hearts content.

If I can get to it, or the situation calls for it, my house gun is a Mosin Nagant M44. If I can't, there is something to be said for a high powered
hand gun that you can hold behind your back while checking noises, that might be your roommate.

I get the warm and fuzzies at around 200 grains, at 1200 fps, or, 230 grains
around 1100 fps, or, 250-260 grains at 1100 fps, or more.

Detonics picked the 200 grain load, at 1200 fps, using a Speer Flying Ashtray. The LEO shootings indicated it was VERY effective.

You should also know your bad guy. The great thing about LFN bullets at the above velocities is they don't have to expand to leave a very large hole, like 1" or more.

Deer:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/45deer0111150fps45ColtexitHardcast.jpg
LFN, hardcast, 1150 fps.

I had this conversation with my gunsmith, and he has two views. One is the .45 ACP just works.
Then he counters with that soft lead 260 grain bullets out of the .45 Colt, at 1000 fps might not penetrate, and or deviate from the path, missing vital organs. This is his argument for hardcast bullets.
Not sure I buy that, but, if you want a heavier soft lead, or jacketed bullet, then 275 grains might do the trick.
I think that John Browning had a pretty good idea with a 200 grain solid, at 950 fps. I don't think he would object to more velocity, but, the 1911 guns at the time didn't really have the strength that the guns today do, and probably wouldn't have held up to .45 Super loads.

jmr40
December 20, 2011, 06:18 PM
It's mighty hard to get that 44 Special revolver to jam with H. P's.Either way,they're both are very effective

I've had far more revolvers fail to work than autos. I'd pick the 44 from a revolver. I actually think the 44 special is the best of the revolver rounds. I much prefer it to 357 mags. Shooting 45 ACP from a revolver does not interest me.

Prosser
December 20, 2011, 06:21 PM
I may have to buy one of these:
http://www.ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkDE/specSheets/5243.html

That way you don't have to decide: you get the benefits of .45 ACP plus you can run
pretty decent .45 Colt through it.

I saw a blued version of this gun converted to .480 Ruger. Made for a very small, concealable package. I was impressed. The gun was converted by Jack Huntington.

NG VI
December 20, 2011, 06:53 PM
Well, the .44 is a great caliber, but for a pure defense conversation, the number of excellent people-bullet designs available in .45ACP dwarfs the .44 special, and any good defense bullet in the special, can be loaded in the .45 too.

People can get too hung up on specific bullet designs, but they can also completely ignore it or tell themself that a semi-wadcutter or generic cast LHP will deliver exactly the same level of performance as a Ranger-T, HST, or PDX/Gold Dot type bullet will.

The one really outstanding bullet (other than Gold Dots, and I don't know how well the .44 version of it works) that can be had in both is the DPX, and they are pretty pricey. It's just easier to find a load that's been optimized for angry people in .45 ACP, even though there are lots of perfectly good special loads out there.

BYJO4
December 20, 2011, 06:54 PM
I prefer the 45 over the 44.

joed
December 20, 2011, 06:58 PM
I'm a big fan of the .44, lord knows I have enough of them. But over the years I've noticed the .44 Spl has one drawback that can't be overlooked unless you reload. Ammo, it's anemic and over priced.

I don't own a .45 acp revolver but would in a heartbeat. I had 2 revolvers that shot the .45 Colt and sold both, I'm not a fan of that cartridge.

kanook
December 20, 2011, 07:26 PM
The only reason to have a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle or shotgunPlease explain all the people that hunt with a handgun then.

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
December 20, 2011, 07:41 PM
44 spl or 45 acp?

toss a coin.

Prosser
December 20, 2011, 07:43 PM
One thing I usually don't get about the .44 Special defense loads is they generally tend to be lighter bullets, 185-225 grain range. I REALLY don't get this. It's easier to get resistance with heavier bullets, and, out of short barrels, you can get the heavy bullets really moving. The only thing I can think of is the heavier recoil of the 250-260 grain bullets, at velocity, make the ammo makers think it's better to use the lighter bullet, due to doubletaps.

Or, they are sold on the idea that if they produce a 'defense' load that is far enough outside the Defense load gel results, and someone actually uses it, with bad effect, they might get sued due to 'over powered' defense ammo?

With a thin jacket, and pure lead, no reason a 260 grain bullet won't open up like crazy, and perhaps have enough bullet weight to penetrate in a straight line, on a large target.

Here is an example:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/36727-5.html

Our cheap price? 25 bucks for 20 rounds?

If you are going to have such a big, beautiful case, use the thing.
"Penetration and expansion in our test medium of 10% ballistic gelatin are excellent; expansion is consistently 2 times the original diameter of the bullet. Depending on caliber and bullet weight, penetration is between 9 and 14 inches."

Heres another one:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2H90700-1.html
165 grains at 900 fps? I've got .38 Special Plus P's with better ballistics.
At least they are cheap. 15 bucks for 20.

It's this weird combination of light bullets, not going very fast, and very expensive ammunition that is a problem with both the .44 Special and the .45 Colt. Reminds me of buying a Bugatti
http://fastestcarsintheworld.net/
to drive in Kali. If you want short cartridge ballistics, use a short cartridge.

Also, when you download that big case you can have detonation problems, inconsistent ignition due to the powder getting away from the primer, etc.
All of this would create poor accuracy due to velocity variation.

Marlin 45 carbine
December 20, 2011, 07:49 PM
check both loaded with 250gr cast slugs, a likley carry in the woods even 'hot' handloads and there's little diff.
I have a .45 wheelly though. shoot +P regular

NMGonzo
December 20, 2011, 07:59 PM
Either or, you are just doing fine.

NMGonzo
December 20, 2011, 08:07 PM
Please explain all the people that hunt with a handgun then.

Critters ain't shooting back.

mavracer
December 20, 2011, 09:37 PM
I agree as to the lack of good SD ammo for the 44 special. I'd love to see somebody load Hornady's 240gr LSWCHP loaded to 900-950fps. Until then I guess I'll make do with 200gr golddots.

mashaffer
December 20, 2011, 10:06 PM
I agree as to the lack of good SD ammo for the 44 special. I'd love to see somebody load Hornady's 240gr LSWCHP loaded to 900-950fps. Until then I guess I'll make do with 200gr golddots.


Would this be close enough?
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=271

mike

Prosser
December 21, 2011, 01:51 AM
The reason for having that big case, in both .45 Colt, and .44 Special is to take advantage of it, and load, big, heavy long bullets.
If you look at the low end of the .44 Magnum loadings you get stuff like

1130 fps, at 26k PSI with a 240 grain NOS JHP.
The weird part is you can use MUCH heavier bullets and get nearly the same velocity, with a MUCH heavier bullet.
How about 1041 fps, but using a 325 grain LFN and only 19,200Cup for pressure?

The really weird part is with minimum loads, in the 20-30PSI range, you can move 355 grain bullets nearly 1200 fps, and 330 grain bullets at 1240fps.

As for a 200 grain bullet: a MINIMUM loading, around 27k-30k CUP will move a 200 grain bullet between 1440-1708 fps.:what:

So, given a choice, I would rather have a 200 grain gas checked Hard cast
LFN or HP going 1700 fps then a 190 grain soft lead going 1100 fps.
Hard cast is likely to expand anyway after about 1300 fps, in particular when it hits bone.

Not using the potential of the .44 is like putting training wheels on a Ferrari.

If you are going to use light bullets, cast em a bit harder, and get them going 1300-1400 fps. THAT works VERY well.

weregunner
December 21, 2011, 03:41 AM
This isn't all that hard to figure out.

If you like and are enamored with the .45ACP and have shot 1911 with it go for it.

Taurus made 5 shot revolvers, the 455 Tracker and the 455 Ti. in 45 ACP. This is no bigger than the similar K frame S&W model 66 or 620.

In .44 Special Taurus made the 431,fixed sights, 5 shot revolver. These come in 3 & 4 inch barrels. It's kin to the 455. Same thing as far as being made in the size of the K frame. I own several.

Next in line is the Taurus 441. Adjustable sights, 3,4, or 6 inch barrels. 5 shots. I own 4 of those.

Last, but not least comes the Rossi 720. It's a 5 shot, .44 Special revolver as well. One gun writer/instructor for one of the 2011 periodicals discovered just how nice the Rossi 720 was and declared it one of his top picks and backed it up with well thought out fact and reason.

The nice thing is that these 5 shot revolvers, .45 ACP or .44 Special, can be carried in the field or for CCW carry.

Granted, these cannot handle the super heavy loads for Grizzly Bears and such. For large dangerous beasts I would carry a 6 shot S&W or Ruger .41 magnum and up in caliber.

However they can handle standard pressure self defense rounds that will stop two footed and 4 footed critters.

Speedstrips and speedloaders are available for these revolvers.

Corbon, Speer, and other ammo manufacturers make excellent defense ammo for either caliber.

For me there is no caliber war. People can make comparisons all day and get nowhere. If something stops a big bullet from one of these calibers from a properly placed slug then what ever has been hit is going to have it's day ruined.

kmrcstintn
December 21, 2011, 06:30 AM
in a revolver format I choose the .44 special; for people who have .44 magnum revolvers (for hunting or 'the fun factor' or woods/hiking defense) it offers a great alternative as a training, plinking, and even self defense (when loaded with an effective hollowpoint) for use in their magnum revolvers...

I keep some CCI Blazer (aluminum cased) .44 spl loaded with Speer Gold Dot 200gr jhp's around for a lower pressure defense load (more control, less deafening, less muzzle blast than .44 magnum loads); I am able to use the same speedloaders and/or speed strips that I use for .44 mangum

ElrodCod
December 21, 2011, 10:33 AM
Which one do you think is better for self defense? Which has more stopping power?

It's a wash. I'd feel well armed either way.

mavracer
December 21, 2011, 10:45 AM
Would this be close enough?
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php...t_detail&p=271
No. Sectional density changes as bullets expand a 190gr that expands as much as that one is going to, will not penatrate as well. I'd be more tempted to carry their 200gr full wadcutter. As it is I'm ordering some 215gr SWCs that once I get a load worked up will be carried for any reloads I'll still leave the GDs in the gun though.

Prosser: this isn't the 1940's the 44 mag has been around for more than 50 years, so there is no reason to buy a 44 special and load it to magnum levels. Besides a 240gr keith @ 1000 fps will kill anything in the lower 48.

azgunner
December 21, 2011, 11:34 AM
Why do people get trapped into these discussions of 45/44 0r 357/45. Blah-bla-blah. The 44 Special is an awesome self defense round. Just as is the 45 ACP. In a revolver the 44 Special wold be the better of the two. Why? Because it can handle greater pressure loads if you are into that stuff. More guns made for it. If you go with the ACP in revolver you have less options.

USSR
December 21, 2011, 11:37 AM
Either or, you are just doing fine.

+1. Ain't one gonna kill something that the other won't just as well.

Don

BluedRevolver
December 21, 2011, 02:49 PM
What about a 230-240 grain .44 Special going 1000-1050 FPS, loaded with a good hollow point? Would that be just as good or better than a typical 230 grain .45 ACP JHP going 850-900 fps? If so, would it have more recoil, and how much?

Sam1911
December 21, 2011, 02:52 PM
What about a 230-240 grain .44 Special going 1000-1050 FPS, loaded with a good hollow point? Would that be just as good or better than a typical 230 grain .45 ACP going 850-900 fps?Yes! Just as good, if not better. A bit better sectional density, so a bit more penetration. Also a bit more velocity so a bit more penetration.

Not enough to worry about, either way.

If so, would it have more recoil, Yes. (Same weight, more velocity = more recoil.)

and how much?A little tiny bit.

Prosser
December 21, 2011, 03:35 PM
Wound channel diameter of 1.017" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 900 fps.

Wound channel diameter of 1.126" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .429", and a striking velocity of 1050 fps.

The added velocity creates a larger wound channel, and makes up for the smaller diameter bullet.

I thought I'd run the .452" bullet at the same velocity:

Wound channel diameter of 1.187" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 1050 fps.

Sam1911 has it right, with the tiny part.

Just playing around with this to see if velocity that I think is important, really is:

Wound channel diameter of 1.074" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 950 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 1.243" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 1100 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 1.356" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 1200 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 1.526" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 1350 fps.

1100 fps looks like sort of the sweatspot. 1/4" bigger then 950, and 1200
doesn't seem to add much.
1350 fps has the added bonus that hard cast bullets tend to deform if they hit bone, creating a serious mushroom effect.

Using a 2 pound gun you get:
230 @ 900
Recoil Energy of 8 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps.
Recoil Energy of 10 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.

Using a 3 pound gun:
230 @ 900
Recoil Energy of 5 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 10 fps.
230 @ 1050
Recoil Energy of 7 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 12 fps.
Finally how about 1.3 pounds, like a Charter Arms Bulldog:
230@900
Recoil Energy of 12 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 24 fps.
230 @ 1050
Recoil Energy of 16 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 28 fps.

Conclusions?

USSR
December 21, 2011, 03:49 PM
What about a 230-240 grain .44 Special going 1000-1050 FPS, loaded with a good hollow point? Would that be just as good or better than a typical 230 grain .45 ACP JHP going 850-900 fps?

If you're going to push the .44 Special along at 1000-1050 FPS, why would you restrict the .45 ACP to 850-900 fps? That's the beauty of a .45 in a revolver.

Don

Sam1911
December 21, 2011, 03:55 PM
Conclusions?

Yes! Now we know what angels dancing on the heads of pins really look like. :)

Prosser
December 21, 2011, 05:07 PM
The other beauty of .45 is using LFN style bullets without worrying about feeding problems.

Sam1911: Thought you might enjoy that task. I wanted to see how tiny tiny really is.:)

In a good sized revolver those recoil numbers are the same as 9MM out of most automatics, with less velocity.

Those numbers appear to lend credence to the 1350 FPS point, and 1100 fps.
Considering most of my big guns shoot stuff that going at least 1350 fps, I get the warm and fuzzies looking at the table.:D

Also, my Kimber 1911 with 230 grain HP's at 1100 fps, buffalobore .45 Super,
also gets me over wanting that extra 100 fps.

Where stuff gets serious is loads like that in a Charter Arms Bulldog.
going from 900 to 1050, with a light little gun like that and you start getting recoil velocity as fast as full house loads in my big guns.

BluedRevolver
December 21, 2011, 05:24 PM
Yes! Just as good, if not better. A bit better sectional density, so a bit more penetration. Also a bit more velocity so a bit more penetration.

Not enough to worry about, either way.

Yes. (Same weight, more velocity = more recoil.)

A little tiny bit.
How is that if the .44 spec is .43 caliber and the .45 ACP is .452 caliber? I guess two hundredths of an inch doesn't make that big a difference especially when the .43 bullet is going almost 200 fps faster and is the same or heavier, right? Actually, the other posts seem to prove this.

Prosser
December 21, 2011, 05:41 PM
To add to it, lets see the difference from slower speeds:
Wound channel diameter of 0.904" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 800 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 0.791" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .452", and a striking velocity of 700 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 0.751" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .429", and a striking velocity of 700 fps.
How about .357?
Wound channel diameter of 0.803" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .357", and a striking velocity of 900 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 0.893" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .357", and a striking velocity of 1000 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 0.982" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .357", and a striking velocity of 1100 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 1.205" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .357", and a striking velocity of 1350 fps.

Prosser
December 21, 2011, 05:51 PM
I'm having fun doing this so indulge me a bit;)
Let's see what the .510" look like?
Wound channel diameter of 1.721" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .510", and a striking velocity of 1350 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 1.403" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .510", and a striking velocity of 1100 fps.
Wound channel diameter of 1.211" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .510", and a striking velocity of 950 fps.

Here is the result of a .500" caliber, 440 grain LFN at 950 FPS, on the offside of the animal:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/440grainHardcastat950fps500JRH300wincartridgeforcomparision.jpg

I think to really increase your power from these two cartridges, the .44 Special, and the .45 ACP/Super it helps to increase bore diameter a bit more then people think.

There also seems to be some corelation between bullet effectiveness as bullet weight goes up. It seems that a 420-525 grain bullet, in .475 to .510"
even at sedate 900-1100 fps blows a big hole through the animal, and keeps on going, or not. Buffalo skin makes an excellent bullet catcher.

It's almost as if there is a geometric increase in effect as caliber and bullet weight goes up. The increase in damage is not easily explained, but, it's there.

Perhaps the same can be said of using the .44's and .45's from the .38's?

Sam1911
December 21, 2011, 05:59 PM
How is that if the .44 spec is .43 caliber and the .45 ACP is .452 caliber? I guess two hundredths of an inch doesn't make that big a difference especially when the .43 bullet is going almost 200 fps faster and is the same or heavier, right? Actually, the other posts seem to prove this. How is that? How is what? I don't understand the question.

But when you say, 0.02" doesn't make that much difference, you sure got that right! :)

When discussing bullets of the same weight, within 0.02" of each other, traveling at within around 100 fps of each other, the practical effects on living tissue will be pretty darned similar.

IF somehow, you could shoot the exact same animal at exactly the same range, distance, and angle, with the two rounds and hold every other possible variable exactly the same, you'd be likely to see that death occurs predictably 0.05 seconds sooner with one than the other. However, I'm not sure which would be faster. ... ;)

I might as well say it before someone else does... shot placement will have FAR more to do with the lethality of either round than will the terminal ballistics differences between the two.

BluedRevolver
December 21, 2011, 06:46 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/649873/speer-gold-dot-short-barrel-ammunition-44-remington-magnum-200-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20

This seems to be a good load, although it's a .44 Magnum and could only be shot out of such it seems to have the characteristics as some good .44 Special loads. From what the reviews are saying the recoil is similar to .44 Special as well. To be honest I'm not sure why Speer even lists it as .44 Magnum. Marketing I guess...

Strykervet
December 21, 2011, 07:07 PM
The very first response nailed it, rcmodel, but if you handload and get a .44mag or .44spcl. AND have it set up for moon clips, well, that would be the most power you could get and be very fast on the reloads. There's a guy online, forget who, does it to most revolvers, looks like good work and he's popular (someone on here will know who).

I just saw a new 329 .44mag snub "Backpacker". Scandium with stainless cylinder, .44mag. Nice and light, but the cylinder will hold up with heavier loads better than the titanium cylinders (trust me on this) and unlike the 329PD, this one has a much shorter barrel, like 2.5" or something like that? You could carry it, and it would be one beast for SD.

In the "Dirty Harry" movies, Harry tells the motorcycle cops when asked what loads he used, that he used specials in a magnum revolver to increase control, faster followups, and reduced recoil. And it does make sense... If you go rimmed, .44, go magnum unless you don't want the large frame. If you handload, heavy bullet, near minimum charge mags are the bees knees.

Sam1911
December 21, 2011, 07:13 PM
Yeah, TK Custom will mill cyliders for moon clips. I wouldn't bother though. The way they work with rimless cartridges like .45ACP, .40, 9mm, etc. is pretty positive. Short stubby cartridges in a nice thick moon clip load pretty quick. Longer cartridges in a thin and flexy little moon clip like have to be used with rimmed cartridges lose a lot of the appeal.

BluedRevolver
December 21, 2011, 08:51 PM
Boys, thank you very much!


My next gun: Smith and Wesson 629 4"!

I figure this loaded with some good high end .44 Specials would be a powerful, reliable, accurate package with quite mild recoil. I'm all about fast follow up shots. Plus I can use it for hunting with .44 Mag!



Again, thank yall!

357 Terms
December 21, 2011, 08:59 PM
My next gun: Smith and Wesson 629 4"!


Good choice.

Sam1911
December 21, 2011, 09:02 PM
Awesome! That's a real man's gun!

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/sam1911/Teaching-1.jpg

:D

John_galt
December 21, 2011, 09:12 PM
This discussion reminds me of phrase . . . somethng about angels on head of a pin..........

USSR
December 21, 2011, 11:00 PM
Prosser,

I'm curious, why are your calculations based on a meplat diameter the same as the bullet diameter? That's called a wadcutter, and I know of no one who hunts with wadcutters.

Don

medic-rod
December 21, 2011, 11:07 PM
I use Aguila IQ 117 GR 45 acp 1450 fps rounds ( still have around 65) love my 44 mag with spc. for home but I think with the aquila rounds the 45 is best. I just don't know where to get them anymore.

Scipio Africanus
December 22, 2011, 01:47 AM
Fantastic choice! The 629 will do everything you ever want a handgun to do and do it very well.

Owen Sparks
December 22, 2011, 02:20 AM
Let's look at an apples to apples comparison. Out of a vented revolver with the same barrel length the .45ACP will give velocities very similar the .44 Special with the same bullet weight. My pet load for both the 230 grain .45 and the 240 grain .44 Special both use 6 grains of Unique. When fired out of five inch barreled revolvers there is not a dimes worth of difference between them. The velocity advantage the .45ACP has in published data comes from the fact that it is usually fired from a non-vented 5" 1911 and the .44 Special is fired from a 3" Charter Arms revolver.

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 02:46 AM
USSR:
Your right, but this isn't about hunting. Jim Cirillo and Tim Sundles think that a full caliber wadcutter is an excellent self-defense round:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=283

200 grains, non-expanding, at between 1200-1300 fps?

Hmmm, wish I would have thought of that...:rolleyes:

I'm willing to dance on the head of the pin, but at a certain point,
time figures in. So yes, the diameter holes would be a bit optimistic, but, not by much.

If you want to search for bullets and meplat diameters, and redo the figures, feel free. That is another factor in the equation, what bullet choices are available for each caliber.

Most are using LFN's with meplat diameter at around 70-80% of caliber.

I think the stuff I ran is valid enough for a relative comparison of the two calibers.

Sam1911
December 22, 2011, 08:18 AM
That's called a wadcutter, and I know of no one who hunts with wadcutters.
Perhaps not so much anymore, but back in the middle of the century heavy hard-cast wadcutters were recognized as seriously lethal on game.

Look at the whole concept of the Keith bullet.

mavracer
December 22, 2011, 08:42 AM
To be honest I'm not sure why Speer even lists it as .44 Magnum. Marketing I guess
No it's because those are 44 magnum loadings in 44 magnumm cases which are .1" longer also eventhough they are loaded light for 44mag they are well over the safe pressure for a 44 special.
I think the stuff I ran is valid enough for a relative comparison of the two calibers.
I supose they're ok if the bullets are just hitting bovine fecies. The real world doesn't always follow calculations.

USSR
December 22, 2011, 09:13 AM
Perhaps not so much anymore, but back in the middle of the century heavy hard-cast wadcutters were recognized as seriously lethal on game.

Look at the whole concept of the Keith bullet.


Yeah, there was a lot of experimentation going on in the early 20th century, and E.K. was one of the best, but a SWC is not a wadcutter. Since wadcutters in this day and age are almost exclusively confined to the .38 Special, that is why I questioned the data being for wadcutters in calibers other than .357".

Don

Sam1911
December 22, 2011, 11:30 AM
but a SWC is not a wadcutter. Ok, point taken. However, a long wadcutter with a large flat meplat and equivalent weight to a similar SWC should do a better job on the animal than the SWC design, I beleive.

USSR
December 22, 2011, 11:48 AM
Sam,

Agree. However, I believe E.K. was looking not only at terminal performance, but rather a combination of terminal performance and long range accuracy, something that a full wadcutter falls flat on.

Don

meef
December 22, 2011, 01:43 PM
The only reason to have a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle or shotgun Awrk!

Polly want a cracker?

Sqwak!

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 02:06 PM
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/03fn.html

Pretty close to full caliber, and excellent hunting bullets.

Another wide nose LFN with a great rep:

http://www.beltmountain.com/punch.htm

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/barnes%C2%AE-buster%E2%84%A2-bullets/

Point is a number of bullet makers have great success with near full caliber
LFN's.

I've shot a .500" Punch Bullet out of a .500JRH into the ground, and dug it out. You could reload it.

But, that said, for comparing the calibers it was easier to use the full caliber then try and figure out what the meplat diameter is on the widest available
Self-Defense bullet.

BluedRevolver:
Congratulations, you made a great choice. When I went to .45's, I always felt that I would have been just as well off going to the .44's, but, then I wouldn't have been able to use cheap, 230 cast bullets in both autos and revolvers for practice.

USSR
December 22, 2011, 02:32 PM
Here's what I use in my .45 Colt.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaQdr1eZS_e9fbnX597lDnllZhoWReQF4qZEXYlhOIf9CNUhv3

About 265gr with the alloy I use, and my S&W 25-5 drew it's first blood with it on a large doe this year.

Don

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 02:58 PM
GREAT looking bullet. How hard did you cast it, and how fast was it going?
Is the one on the right from a deer, or shot into the ground?

USSR
December 22, 2011, 03:28 PM
Not my actual bullet, so I don't know what it was shot into. Am using a 20:1 alloy for my 18gr 2400 load (~1050fps). I try to keep the antimony out of the alloy, or at the very least keep it low.

Don

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 03:41 PM
Did the bullet exit on the deer?
I gather that the bullet is hard enough not to lead. I wonder if you get any expansion on deer? Shoot one into a dead deer, and recover it?

Owen Sparks
December 22, 2011, 05:14 PM
It is important to note that the .44 Special was originally designed for black powder. The45 ACP was designed for smokeless. In the original factory loadings both have very similar performance even though the .44 needed a much longer case to accommodate a bulky charge of black powder . The same could be said of the .38 Special as modern smokeless powder only takes up about half the case capacity consequently +P .38 loadings with light weight bullets fired from longer barrels will give similar performance to the 9MM.

These older black powder era revolver cartridges like the .44 and .38 Specials have much more potential for the hand loader because of the larger case capacity. The problem is that the typical small five shot revolvers are not designed to handle hot loads.

Charter Arms claims to have developed a way to eject auto cases from a revolver and will be chambering their small five shot Bulldog for the .45ACP. Velocity should be just about the same as from the same gun chambered in .44 Special when both use 200 grain bullets.

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 06:24 PM
The problem with a big case and powders that don't fill it are inconsistent ignition, possible detonation, and inconsistent primer powder firing, due to different powder positions.

In this day and age, the .44 Special case is over sized for it's pressure target.
In other words, the cartridge, with current powders is overbore. Sort of like the 30-06 vs. .308. The .308 generates the same velocities with a smaller powder charge, in a smaller case, EXCEPT with heavy bullets.

This, in essence, is what I don't get with the current .44 Special loadings.
To take advantage of that big case you really need a 240 grain or bigger bullet.

Not to mention that the current guns are strong enough to handle 20-30k psi loads also.

You really need to be a hand loader to take full advantage of the caliber.

USSR
December 22, 2011, 06:55 PM
Did the bullet exit on the deer?
I gather that the bullet is hard enough not to lead. I wonder if you get any expansion on deer? Shoot one into a dead deer, and recover it?

Of course the bullet exited the deer. The .45 Colt was designed to shoot thru a horse at 100 yards, so no deer is going to stop a heavy .45 caliber lead bullet at 1,000+fps. As for leading, that is more of a problem with bullets that don't fit your throats at this velocity. My throats measure .454" as do my bullets. The alloy I use is plenty hard enough, considering E.K. used 16:1 for the .44 Magnum. Sorry, but deer season is over, and I'm not about to put any more holes in my venison than necessary.;)

Don

Owen Sparks
December 22, 2011, 07:38 PM
The shorter .44 Russian case is actually more suited to loading modern smokless powder if you can find them.

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 08:32 PM
USSR:

I figured on a Texas Heart shot, and, if the HP actually works, you MIGHT
recover a bullet.;)
Worth a try, anyway. The picture you posted above looks like they shot the HP into dirt and recovered it, similar to this one.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/201047and510275grHP.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/expanded475275grainbullet.jpg
This is the 400 grain HP:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/Model%2083%20FA%20475/475Hornady400JHP.jpg

I'm using the 275 grain Speer HP:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/259723/speer-gold-dot-bullets-480-ruger-475-diameter-275-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-50

The read the reviews about how this thing works on deer and hogs, well worth it.

Since most .45's are the same size as my .475 or .500, I figure you might as
well carry the .475, or .500.

I may have to pick up a Lipsys Ruger Stainless flattop convertible, though.

EVERYONE should own a .45 Colt revolver.

USSR
December 22, 2011, 08:35 PM
EVERYONE should own a .45 Colt revolver.

Agree, wholeheartedly.

Don

mavracer
December 22, 2011, 10:30 PM
The problem with a big case and powders that don't fill it are inconsistent ignition, possible detonation, and inconsistent primer powder firing, due to different powder positions.
That depends on the powder ww231 for instance is not position sensative and gives consistant ignition and velocity. It also is very accurate.
Not to mention that the current guns are strong enough to handle 20-30k psi loads also.
Not sure where you came up with this most experts concider Keith level loads absolute tops for the strongest 44 special chambered guns and it's only ~25K. many of them aren't near that strong. Taurus,Charters, Rossi's and the 696 are maxed out by the Skeeter load that's under 20K.

Prosser
December 22, 2011, 11:26 PM
I should have said any of the ones worth owning;-)
Ruger, FA, BFR, S&W. I really think some of the best .44 Specials are the .44 Magnum S&W scandiums.

Rugers are just beautiful. BFR's Magnum Shorty in .44 Is pretty much perfect.

https://magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR44MAG5

Wonder How much pressure the FA 97 .44 Special can take? More then the shooter?

The 83 in .44 Magnum is a sweet gun as well.

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