Montana Wolf And Coyote Comparison


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PolymathPioneer
December 23, 2011, 11:54 AM
Many hunters in Montana have seen this recent picture that shows the difference in size between a wolf and a coyote. I thought THR hunters outside of Montana would find the comparison in size interesting. It used to be said that no wolf had killed a person in the lower 48. This is no longer true. I was speaking with a Montana FWP biologist recently when I called in to check wolf quotas. She tracks wolves in Montana, (FWP: fish and game to non-Montanans). She told me a wolf killed a baby a few years ago when two (condition white) parents let a wolf approach their child in an outdoor baby swing. The wolf snatched the baby away. The biologist said before she worked at FWP she would never have imagined this happening but not anymore. The animals in this image were legally harvested according to Montana law.

http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k579/PolymathPioneer/WolfVersusCoyote2.jpg

Wolf populations are a problem in Montana. They are not warm and cuddly as sometimes portrayed in the media. In Montana there are so many of them that they are legally hunted in season. They will kill any other Canid (i.e. dog, coyote, etc) that they find in their territory. Wolves in Montana are smart and they can tell the difference between someone with a gun and without. They tear big game animals apart, usually by ripping the nose off first to bring them down. I have had large wolves approach within 100 yards of our house. I tracked a pack of five this season in the mountains. A friend shot the two animals in this picture. Note that the coyote on the right in this picture is the size of a 70 pound German Shepherd dog for comparison. Remember wolves hunt in packs of 5 to 15 animals but six is the common pack size. The pack is a family unit lead by an alpha male and an alpha female. They can weigh up to 150 pounds or more. Why I always carry a 44 when I am out in the Montana wilderness now. I constantly see their scat. The only change I made to this image was that I cropped it and obscured the license plate of the vehicle.

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H&Hhunter
December 23, 2011, 12:01 PM
Note that the coyote on the right in this picture is the size of a large German Shepherd dog for comparison.

OK I've got to call BS on that one. A huge coyote will go 50LBs and large German Shepard will go 100+lbs easy.

I understand what you are saying about wolves but these comparisons are far better if we don't exaggerate. I grow weary of size comparisons that are not accurate. Much like the poster who not long ago made the comment that coyotes and wolves were roughly the same size!!

PolymathPioneer
December 23, 2011, 12:05 PM
H&H, When I said a large German shepherd dog I meant between 70-100 pounds, which is the size of my 9 month male (80 pounds). I have clarified the post. I also have a 150 pound black Newfoundland dog and that wolf was larger than my Newfoundland. The snow tracks of the wolves that approach my house are the size of small saucer pans and are larger than my Newfoundland's tracks in snow.

The reason for the size is the plentiful prey animal food supply here. We have Mule Deer that regularly walk around downtown in the state capital (during hunting season). Herds (30 animals) of (cow) elk are not more than 200 yards from my house after a snow fall. When I hunt bull elk I walk a mile into the mountains on our property. My buddy took a bull elk with a bow south of the river that scored a 377 this year. There are White tail deer everywhere. Several moose make their home next to my house during the rut. I lived in Colorado and never saw wildlife as plentiful as this, even though elk were constantly on our mountain property and deer were walking the streets downtown, but nothing like here in Montana. This year the front page headline in the paper was that we had a record harvest of elk, they had to open more check stations the last day of the regular season to handle all the harvested elk.

I have seen and tracked coyotes in New Mexico and Montana up close so I know what they look like. When I first moved to Montana I saw a coyote in a snow covered field 50 yards from my house where I was standing and thought it was a wolf until corrected by my hunter friends, it was much bigger than the coyotes in New Mexico, which were no bigger than 50 pounds and usually smaller. While briefly living in Ringoes New Jersey on our horse farm I saw a Jersey coyote up close while it stalked white tail deer and it was about 80 pounds, i.e. much bigger than the New Mexico coyotes. I saw a mountain lion in Colorado too but never a coyote while I lived there briefly. Based on what you said it sounds like the coyotes in Colorado are the same size as they are in New Mexico. Thanks for the response, which prompted me to clarify the post and write this too. Any other comments that enable me to clarify the post are always appreciated. I strive to be accurate when I post, which is why I initially mentioned the adjustments to the image at the bottom of this one. Inaccurate claims don't help anyone and I have better things to do with my time (like hunt mountain lion right now) than BS.

CoRoMo
December 23, 2011, 12:32 PM
My wife sent me a text message on my phone a week or so ago, with this exact image. I instantly thought it was a photoshop. It came with another pic or two though. I'll try and get them on the computer and attached here.

KodiakBeer
December 23, 2011, 12:34 PM
They will kill any other Canid (i.e. dog, coyote, etc) that they find in their territory.

True, so that's a pretty positive thing. I suspect coyotes kill as much game as wolves, only they take the young instead of adult animals. A wolf is a terrific big game animal, so it's not all bad news.

CoRoMo
December 23, 2011, 01:03 PM
Here's the pictures I was talking about.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/CodyMonahan/IMG281.jpg
...
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/CodyMonahan/IMG280.jpg

If you notice this second one, it is from a different angle than the one the OP posted, given the orientation of the vehicles in the background.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 23, 2011, 01:07 PM
That is, on average, a good sized Wolf. And also on average, not that big of a yote. As H&H said, yotes are not commonly that large in the southern regions but when you get to the colder northern climates I have seen them go as much as 70 pounds. Wolves are larger on average no doubt. But please try to refrain from posting "scare tactics" and trying to say thats a 70 pound yote. That yote would go no more than 50 and nowhere NEAR the same size as a Shepard. Wolves are tactically smarter than most any other predator including yotes and will commonly avoid human interaction of ANY kind. The story you posted about the child being taken was one of opportunity. In 200 years there has been little to no dangerous interaction where human life was taken by the Wolf.

If I had to guess, being that it's hard to tell by a picture without a visible reference marker for sizing, that Wolf would probably go around 130 to 140. It looks about the same size as an Alaskan Wolf I took several years ago which went about 146. On average in the 35 Wolves I have tagged, they generally have all been within 100 to 115 some a little smaller and some a little bigger but most still within that range. Your Alpha Males will generally be the biggest in the group and your Omega females will generally be the biggest female in the group.

They are not any harder to kill (which is what I was referring to H&H not generally the size difference but the body structure) that a coyote is and some overly large hand cannon is not needed. They are much easier to drop than your average white-tail doe with a shoulder shot. Most every Wolf I have tagged was taken with a little bitty .220swift loaded with a hot 55gr V-Max load. A couple were taken with .30/06 as I spotted them while hunting other critters.

Are they a problem in Montana and surrounding states? Yes sir I do believe they are and the reintroduction of them was completely retarded and short sighted. Man has screwed up the ecological balance of things and these Apex predators have no place anymore in the areas where man has already screwed things up. They will interfere with cattle production as well as what is left of the other wild mammals that are their natural prey. They need to be tightly controlled and kept in a number that will not harm what is left of the herds of Elk and Deer. They are natures ultimate population control and very good at their jobs. But when they run out of their natural prey, or discover that those cattle are MUCH easier a meal than those running free Elk or White-tail, they will be a serious problem. This is already being seen but a lot of your tree huggers are trying to say that it's just hunters crying about Wolves because they are too competitive over the Elk. Well in a way, that's a true statement. Wolves will decimate the Elk herds and move on to another herd. It's their nature. You have to remember, Elk, White-tail, and other cervidae were in MUCH MUCH MUCH greater numbers here before Man and what is in the Wolves DNA was natures way of keeping those numbers in a sustainable check. Now, you have much less in numbers, but a predatory machine that still naturally kills like it needs to keep the numbers low. Wolves need to be controlled, but lets try to refrain from putting them in a demonic light. They are creatures nature created and deserve respect as any other animal (except wild hogs but thats another subject). You are in no more physical danger from Wolves than you are around any other predator. There have been MANY more puma, cougar, mountain lion, whatever you want to call them, attacks than Wolves yet you rarely see everyone banding together to go kill the kitty!

CoRoMo
December 23, 2011, 01:19 PM
Found the OP picture posted here too: http://www.skinnymoose.com/wildlifepro/2011/12/18/the-difference-in-size-between-a-timber-wolf-and-a-coyote/

PolymathPioneer
December 23, 2011, 01:20 PM
I am more concerned that the wolves loose their fear of people in Montana as a result of (condition white) people feeding them (as has taken place with bears in Yellowstone and Glacier for example). This is also the concern of the Montana FWP based upon my recent discussions with them while checking wolf quotas. Currently my experience is that wolves run like heck when they see hunters.

broken6r
December 23, 2011, 01:32 PM
From one Montanan to another, please tell you friend thank you

Art Eatman
December 23, 2011, 01:36 PM
As you go farther north in the US, all species are larger. This is true for coyotes, deer, wolves, bear, cougar and many species of birds.

In my area near the Rio Grande, coyotes run about 30 pounds. Bobcats about the same, but maybe only 25 for many. Cougars max out around 140 for a big male. Bears commonly go 200 to 300; above 400 is uncommon. A really, really big mule deer will dress out not much over 200--and that's uncommon.

PolymathPioneer
December 23, 2011, 01:44 PM
That's for certain. Moving from Colorado to Montana, mountain lions seem to grow bigger by two feet in length. I saw one on Conifer Mountain in Colorado crossing a road that was not more than six feet in length. In Montana males reach eight feet in overall length. That being said I couldn't tell if the the Colorado puma I saw was a male or female since it was at a 90 degree angle to me. The only way to tell a male from a female puma for certain is to look at where the black spot is on the rear end once you have them treed.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 23, 2011, 01:44 PM
As you go farther north in the US, all species are larger. This is true for coyotes, deer, wolves, bear, cougar and many species of birds.

In my area near the Rio Grande, coyotes run about 30 pounds. Bobcats about the same, but maybe only 25 for many. Cougars max out around 140 for a big male. Bears commonly go 200 to 300; above 400 is uncommon. A really, really big mule deer will dress out not much over 200--and that's uncommon.

Generally that is spot on correct. I was SHOCKED at my first Saskatchewan white-tail encounter :what: Being raised in the mountains of the south I thought I was face to face with a MOOSE! Hell I've had dogs bigger than most of your Florida white-tail! You would think as far north as PA is, you would have pretty big bodied white-tail there but they average about the same size as Tennessee deer but the yotes in Pa are pretty hefty. I guess from having all them little deer to munch on :D

H&Hhunter
December 23, 2011, 02:08 PM
I guided for Mt Lion in NM. We killed many males over 7' in length I've personally killed and guided on several that were tickling 8' pretty hard. Colorado also produces cats in the 8' length category every year.

However length of the hide is very subjective as it's easy to make 8' out of a 7' cat depending on how you measure the hide. So the only real and honest subjective way to measure a lion trophy is the length and width of the skull. And the truth of the matter is that there are some short cats with big heads and some long cats with little heads.

Generally speaking the higher scoring lion trophies come from Utah, Colorado, and Montana. That does not mean that NM doesn't have some very large bodied cats.They just tend to have longer more narrow heads than their northern counter parts.

I'm sure there might be some 70 lb coyotes out there. I'll believe it when I see it and even in the northern ranges that would be an absolute freak. A very large male coyote is something in the 50 lb range.

Art Eatman
December 23, 2011, 02:23 PM
Some biologists say that wildlife in the higher elevations in the southern Rockies equate to the wildlife sizes farther north. Going higher is much like moving north.

From the FWIW files: About fifty years ago a friend of mine was in the Navy, stationed up in Connecticutt. He went hunting in Maine. He showed me a picture of his whitetail buck. It field dressed over 300 pounds, and sure looked that big. He was standing alongside, not behind it, and was made to look like a midget. :)

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 23, 2011, 02:47 PM
Some biologists say that wildlife in the higher elevations in the southern Rockies equate to the wildlife sizes farther north. Going higher is much like moving north.

Kind of true to a small degree. Up in the Cumberland mountains, I killed a few pretty heavy bucks. On the hoof undressed they went about 220 to 240 which in Tennessee is a HUGE bodied deer. But sadly those were freaks that had soybean and corn fields and white oak trees out the yang and most every Tennessee boy I knew had the good sense to kill every damn yote we saw so they weren't hassled by song dogs too awful much. Very rare to see deer that big. Not saying that they don't exist but you aren't going to lay eyes on too many that's for sure.

H&H, when these knees of mine get fixed and I'm mobile enough, I'll hook you up and take you up to the Poconos in Pa and give you the opportunity to view and take some pretty beefy song dogs my friend. Like you, I thought that 50 was a huge mutt until I got to hunting up there while I lived in Pa. South Central Pa around Bucks and Chester counties are home to some very large mutts as well. I've killed quite a few in both that weighed in well over 50 pounds. I think it's a combination of really heavy rabbit and deer populations that give them a more robust body size. The foxes there get pretty big as well.

Hammerhead
December 23, 2011, 10:31 PM
I searched for a story about a wolf killing a baby in Montana, and the original post is about the only thing that shows up.

Are there any more details available? Perhaps a link to the story? It seems to me that would be a widely reported story?

For some reason, I keep thinking of tin foil...

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 23, 2011, 10:46 PM
Hammerhead, upon reading your reply, I myself just did an intensive search myself and guess what,,, Not a damn thing. Best thing I could come up with was this http://www.wildsentry.org/WolfAttack.html It details every report of Wolf attacks in North America. Funny it doesn't seem to mention ANY deaths related to Wolves in North America!

Im not sensing tin foil, I am smelling a serious pile of BS!

ZeroJunk
December 23, 2011, 11:37 PM
As you go farther north in the US, all species are larger

I have read that it is about conservation of heat. A larger animal wiil maintain body temperature better which would be a benefit in cold climates but a hinderance to shedding body heat and keeping cool in a long hot season.

PolymathPioneer
December 24, 2011, 12:52 AM
I searched for a story about a wolf killing a baby in Montana, and the original post is about the only thing that shows up.

Are there any more details available? Perhaps a link to the story? It seems to me that would be a widely reported story?

For some reason, I keep thinking of tin foil...
Contact Montana FWP and ask for the wolf biologist and they will relate the story to you, which is where I obtained the information. The Internet is the tin foil, with all due respect.

shiftyer1
December 24, 2011, 01:32 AM
I agree that animals up north are bigger, I come from Minnesota and the deer back home are twice the size of my central Texas deer. Back home corn, beans and water are everywhere and easy to come by along with all kinds of green stuff to chew on. Here graze ain't that great and they have to work for it, sometimes water is the same way.

Yes wolves get big, they're dogs, and dogs get big. Hell my lab is 120 and not over weight. I had an alaskan husky which was supposed to have some wolf in him and he was everybit as big as the wolf in the picture, with a summer coat compared to winter hair in the pic.

A 70 pound coyote is pretty big north or south. I've never seen one although I never saw a 200lb dog either until I saw my friends african borbel.

Plentyful and easy food = bigger critters

caribou
December 24, 2011, 06:14 AM
Yep, Wolves get big.

A Red Fox beside the Coyote would been cool :D

dead , limp Wolves are hard to hold, least of all lift up,they have a very narrow chest and slick fur. Easy enough to drag over snow almost effortlessly with a bit of rope round the neck. They are suprisingly "fuzzy" with all that hair, and, in a way, remind me of Muskox under all that wool.......
I hunt them for fun and profit, and they are the closest predator to our human selfs out there, in North America.
Smart, magestic, compedative and for some, scary.......~~LOL!!~~

H&Hhunter
December 24, 2011, 09:58 AM
What I am saying about a 70 lb coyote is that sure they might exist. But even in areas where coyotes tend to get bigger a 70 Lber is on the far right side of the bell curve and is rare therefore shouldn't be used as example of an average sized example of the breed.

Have you guys ever noticed that on the internet all grizzly's weigh 1000 lbs + elk bulls commonly top 1000 lbs black bear are always in the 600 Lb range and hogs commonly go 400+ lbs.

A hang scale would make liars out of just about all of these claimants.

buck460XVR
December 24, 2011, 11:21 AM
Contact Montana FWP and ask for the wolf biologist and they will relate the story to you, which is where I obtained the information. The Internet is the tin foil, with all due respect.


This from the Montana FWP.......

Q.Should Montanans be concerned about public safety?
A. The gray wolf is a very adaptable species. World-wide, wolves and people live in closer proximity than many thought possible. In the contiguous United States, wolves are not confined to the wilderness. In Montana, more wolves actually live outside backcountry wilderness areas than live within them, increasing the potential for interaction between people and wolves. Though curious, wolves generally fear people and rarely pose a threat to human safety. However, there have been many cases of human injuries and a few deaths due to wolves in North America over the last 100 years. The main contributing factors were habituation to people, conditioning to human foods, rabies infections, and the presence of domestic dogs. As recently as the fall of 2005, a man was apparently killed by a pack of four wolves in a remote camp in Northern Saskatchewan. Although the case is still under investigation, habituation to people combined with receiving food rewards led the four wolves to become very bold and aggressive toward people. But overall, wolf attacks on people are and always have been rare compared to other wildlife species, both large and small. Most are preventable. It is unusual for wild wolves to associate or interact with people, linger near buildings, livestock, or domestic dogs. This behavior is more typical of a habituated or food-conditioned animal, a released captive wolf, or a released wolf-dog hybrid. Wild wolves generally have some place to be and something to do. Wolves do not seek out or loiter around areas of human settlement, but may be seen near them.

You'd think they'd warn us not to watch our babies interact with wolves. You'd think if this really happened, the media would have made mincemeat outta both the parents and the Montana FWP........
http://www.firstnews.co.uk/site_data/images/tin_foil_4c610a74883e5.jpg

ZeroJunk
December 24, 2011, 11:43 AM
The wolf snatched the baby away.

The baby wasn't named Romulus or Remus was it?

dwrowell
December 24, 2011, 12:19 PM
Has anyone collected the $100 reward for a photo of a legally killed wolf in Montana? "The Montana Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife is offering $100 and an annual membership for photographs of wolves killed in any open wolf hunting district between Dec. 19 and the end of the season, or until a quota is filled."

I love it when a private entity steps in and does what FWP should be doing. I'd gladly contribute to the cause. In fact, I am going to become a member of Montana Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife right now. You can do that here: http://www.mt-sfw.org/. Please consider joining with me. They work very effectively to get wolves and other predators under control, despite the tree huggers efforts to have them manage themselves contrary to human interests. Yes, God put them here. He also made us the managers. Gen 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Dave
ElkHuntingTips.Net

Milamber
December 24, 2011, 01:39 PM
First of all to let you all know where I stand. I am not a tree hugger or a hunter. I was working on the Wyoming-Montana border when they started introducing the wolf, along with a whole bunch of promises that they wouldn't spread to populated areas and the Fish and Game would manage them. From the start there were stories of foals and domestic cattle being taken. I feel the powers that be dropped a major fubar on Montana with the wolf. They introduced a smart pack of predators into an area populated with wildlife and domestic animals that had no clue what a wolf was. With that the wolf grew fat and fast. Back then everyone practiced the three S's - shoot, shovel and shut up. Thankfully the FWP have allowed hunting.

I live in Georgia in area known for its Black Bear population. But they are still a rare sight. The largest predator I see around the house is wild domestic dogs, I have a fox who hangs around but does not bother anything. But trust me if any of them came near my livestock or family I would shoot without hesitation. If I saw a wolf within a hundred yards of my place I would shoot it too. Its just too smart to mess with, especially in a pack.

We have an instinctive fear of wolves hardwired into us, we need to manage it and not allow it to make us hysterical about the wolf. It is without doubt a threat to our domestic livestock and they need to be protected but like the Great White Shark keep it in perspective and real. The idiot texting in the car next to you is more likely to kill you.

PolymathPioneer
December 24, 2011, 02:01 PM
As I said earlier please contact the Montana FWP wolf biologist. You can reach her by calling the main number (406) 444-2950 and ask to speak with the (woman) wolf biologist (she has a dog that she regularly takes out with her hiking, which was how we got into the discussion). I am also certain she knows of the wolf in my original post. If you can't afford to, or don't know how to contact them by telephone, as I suggested and instead obtained general information from their website, I tried to reach her today to get more specifics to post here but the enforcement office is closed. I am certain she will be happy to tell you what she volunteered to tell me about the infant taken from the swing. I believe she said it happened up near Glacier and it was not a recent event. Cheers.

cottswald
December 24, 2011, 03:05 PM
Pardon the diversion, but I think this calls for some great audio (no tin foil).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UfXrJ5KqlY

PolymathPioneer
December 24, 2011, 04:00 PM
Pardon the diversion, but I think this calls for some great audio (no tin foil).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UfXrJ5KqlY
Spooky video, especially since the guy can't carry a pistol in Canada while bow hunting. One of my German Shepherd dogs was in the room resting nearby when I was watching it and when he heard the howling his head perked right up.

Ridgerunner665
December 24, 2011, 04:29 PM
If I had known anybody was interested I could have shown you a pic of a 60 pound coyote just a few weeks ago...I shot it while I was deer hunting, and its not the only one I've killed at that size...to include one female.

They say they have mixed with domestic dogs, hence the larger size...makes sense, but I'm no scientist.

PolymathPioneer
December 24, 2011, 04:38 PM
Here is an interesting referenced paper by the BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY LAW REVIEW covering the history of wolves in the United States. Note in one of the references there is a discussion of packs of wolves taking babies in other countries. The paper is detailed and not an Internet sound bite and takes time to read. http://www.law2.byu.edu/lawreview4/archives/2000/1/din.pdf

H&Hhunter
December 24, 2011, 05:23 PM
PMP,

Are you aware of the golden shovel award? That is the one you get when instead of regrouping and getting your facts straight you just keep digging. The first rule when finding yourself in a self dug pit is to STOP DIGGING!

If you do in fact have a factual account of a baby being taken by a wild wolf near Glacier NP please get your information together and post it here. But "call the MFWP and ask the the female biologist who likes to walk her dog." I'm afraid somebody might have told you fib even if she really was a biologist for the state on Mt.

News like that doesn't stay quiet and it would have been world wide sensational. Remember the baby that got taken by the Dingo at Ayers Rock in Australia? Yeah they even made a movie about it!

PolymathPioneer
December 24, 2011, 05:54 PM
PMP,

Are you aware of the golden shovel award? That is the one you get when instead of regrouping and getting your facts straight you just keep digging. The first rule when finding yourself in a self dug pit is to STOP DIGGING!

If you do in fact have a factual account of a baby being taken by a wild wolf near Glacier NP please get your information together and post it here. But "call the MFWP and ask the the female biologist who likes to walk her dog." I'm afraid somebody might have told you fib even if she really was a biologist for the state on Mt.

News like that doesn't stay quiet and it would have been world wide sensational. Remember the baby that got taken by the Dingo at Ayers Rock in Australia? Yeah they even made a movie about it!
H&H; with all do respect I provided a telephone number and there is only one female wolf biologist at FWP. All someone has to do is call the number and ask for that person and they will know who is requested. My mistake, which I now realize, was I should not have wasted my time with the post to begin with. If you do a search on the Internet covering the subject matter over 14,000 hits are reported (when I did this a few moments ago). I find it hard to believe that most of those hits have been reviewed by anyone here. I just contacted a friend in Montana to see if he had heard of this story and he said yes but the event occurred in the mid to late 1990s, i.e. it is not a recent event. Finally, I have always endeavored to keep to the ideals of THR while I have been a member. And frankly I am surprised that you, who I respect, would defend such a crass post, i.e. toilet paper, not high road.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 24, 2011, 05:54 PM
Dad gummit H&H you beat me to it!!! Just fer that, when I take you up to Pa for some yotes, I'M TAKING THE FIRST SHOT!!! :D

Guess I have to take up on where you didn't. PolymathPioneer, I don't think there has been a single one of us that has stated that Wolves have not killed human beings anywhere. We have stated, that in the past 200 years, NO HUMAN HAS BEEN KILLED IN NORTH AMERICA BY HEALTHY WOLVES Now, there is one case in Alaska where a 22 year old grad student POSSIBLY was killed by Wolves but it is under investigation still as there were many different types of tracks in the area that the body was found. It was also around a dump site where idiots were not properly disposing of their trash and attracting predators. Now, earlier you saw I stated in bold type HEALTHY WOLVES. 95% of the recorded Wolf attacks on humans both in Europe and North America back in the 1800's were attacks by Rabid Wolves. Healthy Wolves will avoid human contact like the plague. They are smart like that. Now, in some parts of India there have been some Wolf attacks on children. They send their children out to tend and herd the animals. They are made easy targets and the Wolves there have slowly caught on to this. As I said, they are smart like that.

I'm going to repeat what H&H said just in case you didn't get the point. I, nor most anyone else of intelligence, will not be calling the Montana FWP and ask for "the (woman) wolf biologist that likes to walk her dog". Personally, I do not like to call officials and sound like a complete idiot. Which if I did call and ask that, I would be asked if I had a mental health issue I'm sure. I, like everyone else on this board including you, have the most powerful informational tool known to man right here at my fingertips. If the "story" you are alluding to is in any way true, I could simply type in "child attacked by Wolf in North America" and I would get 1000000000000 hits instantly. A story like that would be world wide news within minutes. North America has not seen a HUMAN death by wolves in over a century so it would be a media frenzy instantly. It would ESPECIALLY hit every forum board with hunters like wildfire.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 24, 2011, 06:01 PM
The ONLY attack registered in the 1990's of a child was a 19 month old child in Algonguin Ontario (nowhere NEAR Montana by the way) and the child was a little tore up and required a couple of stitches and a couple of staples but otherwise fine and healthy. Story here:

Two years later, on September 25, 1998, another Algonquin wolf circled a little girl and despite blasts of pepper spray, didn't leave until the child entered a trailer. Two days after that, a nineteen-month-old boy sat playing in the middle of camp, with his parents twenty feet away. The father thought he saw a dog emerge from the brush. He turned away for a moment and when he looked back, he saw his son in the jaws of a wolf. The wolf held the boy for a moment and then tossed him three feet. A local newspaper quoted the parents, "It wasn't hit and run. He hit him [the infant] and then it was wait and see. He [the wolf] circled the picnic table a number of times before he was scared off enough to leave." The infant received two stitches for minor injuries.

PolymathPioneer
December 24, 2011, 06:14 PM
The ONLY attack registered in the 1990's of a child was a 19 month old child in Algonguin Ontario (nowhere NEAR Montana by the way) and the child was a little tore up and required a couple of stitches and a couple of staples but otherwise fine and healthy. Story here:
When I wish to confirm a story I am not afraid to make contact with public officials because I believe the only stupid question is the one that is not asked. With all do respect, your absolute belief in the information quality of the Internet is naive. Cheers.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 24, 2011, 06:30 PM
It's not absolute belief in the information network, It's plain old common sense. I've hunted the Western states for going on 4 decades and been in the Eastern woods for OVER 4 decades there youngun. I know the outdoors better than a lot of folks. I also keep my "ears open" for anything having to do with the outdoors such as this "story" you are trying to pass along. If it happened, I or many others on this forum would have heard about it. Even way back in the 90's. (Lord did I just type "way back in the 90's? God I'm getting old)

Listen, most every person on this forum agrees that the Wolves desperately need to be managed and their numbers kept in serious check. But demonizing the Wolf and trying to instill fear of them is seriously the wrong way to go about things.

PolymathPioneer
December 24, 2011, 06:43 PM
It's not absolute belief in the information network, It's plain old common sense. I've hunted the Western states for going on 4 decades and been in the Eastern woods for OVER 4 decades there youngun. I know the outdoors better than a lot of folks. I also keep my "ears open" for anything having to do with the outdoors such as this "story" you are trying to pass along. If it happened, I or many others on this forum would have heard about it. Even way back in the 90's. (Lord did I just type "way back in the 90's? God I'm getting old)

Listen, most every person on this forum agrees that the Wolves desperately need to be managed and their numbers kept in serious check. But demonizing the Wolf and trying to instill fear of them is seriously the wrong way to go about things.
I am not demonizing the wolf and before I lived in Montana I thought it was good that they were being re-introduced into the west. Not anymore, they come to within 100 yards of our house in Montana almost on a nightly basis looking for prey animals. We have had moose that bed 50 yards besides the house due to the wolves. I have been recently warned by FWP to not let my young children play on our property unescorted. When I take my dogs out at night they spend several minutes testing the wind before relieving themselves (my daughter used to take them out but no more). I do not know of a single hunter or rancher (and many others who are neither) living here in Montana that have not said openly to me they will kill them on sight. I don't know if people actually mean this but the intent is clear. When wolves loose fear of humans here they will certainly be a threat to children, as heavily documented in India as an example. New wolf packs are establishing themselves every six months in the area where we live according to FWP. You see bumper stickers here that say "smoke a pack a day" and its not talking about cigarettes. Its one thing to be an outsider and hunt here and its another to have to live with this wolf problem on a daily basis. The wolf problem here is very bad. Finally, please note, the picture I posted is the norm here for wolf size its not "above average" as you said in your posts. If you talk to hunters who live in Montana and hunt the thick and nasty areas where the bull elks stay after the rut (like I do) they will tell you wolves can go over 200 pounds, the tracks are massive (and disconcerting when by my house). I can tell by the track that wolves, (which are incredibly smart, they will drive elks off ridges to kill them), are "thinking" how close can they approach. I often will follow the tracks at night and know they are watching me.

Art Eatman
December 24, 2011, 06:58 PM
No biggie, but it's becoming more argumentative than about the opening post's basic topic...

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