Is there any way to get more velocity out of a rifle?


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MUSICALGUNNUT45
December 24, 2011, 03:03 AM
Kind of a stupid thought I know but I noticed that certain firearms (depending on age and make) deliver higher velocities than other rifles of the same type, so I was wondering is there a way to improve or modify a firearm so it delivers higher velocities.

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Geno
December 24, 2011, 04:50 AM
There are several variables that contribute to velocity. What cartridge and which rifles do you refer to?

Geno

Robert
December 24, 2011, 08:27 AM
As Geno said, there are many different variables in this question. Caliber, barrel length, action type, powder, primer, bullet weight can all have, to a certain degree, an effect velocity.

Art Eatman
December 24, 2011, 08:35 AM
Give us an example or two, so we have something to work from...

WNTFW
December 24, 2011, 09:56 AM
A short simplified answer would be yes. You can get more velocity by optimizing some variables. Don't expect going from 2650 to 3650 though. Barrel or bullet coating can change velocity.

Another thing to think about is BC and bullet construction will probably yield better results than a velocity increase. Then it is not uncommon to have to take a drop in velocity to get better accuracy. Also notice that Sierra list 3 BC's for their bullets - the BC changes with velocity.

Also are you basing the premise on hard data or claims. I have seen many people state claimed velocity didn't really happen.

Currently you reach a point where pressure starts rising quicker than velocity as charge weight increases.

jpwilly
December 24, 2011, 10:29 AM
The easiest way to improve velocity is a premium barrel that is longer than the previous one. The type of rifling and twist can also have an effect on velocity. Then of course the load. The best improvement after the bullet leaves the barrel is the BC of the bullet. The higher the BC bullets keep scooting long after the others drag has slowed them down.

MUSICALGUNNUT45
December 24, 2011, 11:00 AM
There are several variables that contribute to velocity. What cartridge and which rifles do you refer to?

Geno
I was thinking about experimenting with a couple of guns.

A 45 colt 1892 lever action with a 16 inch barrel.

a 7.62x39mm sks rifle.

an AR-15 16 inch

and if the same variables apply with a handgun, A 1911 in 45 acp.

35 Whelen
December 24, 2011, 11:07 AM
Velocities vary alot from barrel to barrel/rifle to rifle. Example: I have two very similar .308's; both older military bolt action rifles. One has an 18 1/2" barrel while the other has a 20". In theory, the 20" barrel should provide more velocity with identical loads. But with identical loads, that is smae powder, same powder charge, same bullet, same o.a.l. they in fact are almost identical in velocity...I mean within 10 fps or so of each other.

Many years ago I read an article in which the author attempted to achieve more velocities from a couple of 7x57mm's. Since most 7x57mm's are built on long actions, there's ample room in the magazine for a longer cartridge so this fella lengthened the throat on a couple of his 7x57mm's. This of course allowed bullets to be seated out much further which increased cartridge case capacity which in turned increased velocity potential.
After reading the article, my Dad had this done to a sporterized '98 Mauser. I still have the rifle and I can tell you firsthand that it works...or at least it did in this rifle.

So to answer the question of the OP, to increase the velocity of a given bullet you can do two things: increase the barrel length and/or increase the capacity of the case.

Both the above mentioned .308's have VERY long throats, so long in fact that except with bullets in the 200 gr. range, it's impossible to seat a bullet to the rifling and it still remain in the case. The upside to that is case capacity greatly increased. Years ago, my hunting handload ran a 165 gr. Remington bullet in the 2760 fps range out of the 18 1/2" barrel with no pressure signs. I've since backed off to a 150 gr. bullet at a hair over 2700 and still kill just as many deer with less wear and tear on the rifle.


35W

jmr40
December 24, 2011, 11:17 AM
Buy a quality barrel.

There are 3 things that influence the muzzle velocity of any gun, assuming you are shooting the same cartridge.

#1 The load you are using. Different load, bullet combinations will have a huge effect on how fast your bullet is traveling. You could drop down a bullet weight. Some of the newer solid copper bullets have made the need for traditional heavy bullets obsolete. For example my 308 will shoot 165 gr bullets @ 2760 fps. I can load Barnes 130 gr bullets to 3160 fps and they will out penetrate old school lead 165's.

#2 Barrel quality. Some guns/barrels just plain shoot faster and it is usually a mark of a quality. I've noted that the guns that shoot the fastest are usually the most accurate. Most quality custom barrels tend to not only be more accurate, but shoot faster as well. The quality of the barrel has a greater effect than barrel length. It is not at all unusual for different guns with eqaul length barrels to shoot ammo from the same box 40-50 fps different. I've seen 20" barrels shoot faster than 22" and seen as much as 130 fps difference between barrels of equl length.

#3 Barrel length. Generally speaking the longer the barrel the faster it will shoot, but this is the least important of the 3. It is impossible to say just how much since faster a longer barrel will be since the quality of the barrel is far more important. A shorter, high quality barrel may well shoot faster than an average or poor quality barrel that is 2" or more longer.

Legionnaire
December 24, 2011, 11:18 AM
Reflecting on your first post, it is likely that the rifles with higher velocities have "tighter" tolerances. It would have to do with how the particular chamber/barrel handles the pressure from a given cartridge. My guess is that there isn't much that a home gunsmith can do to improve velocity keeping the ammo constant. You're talking replacing barrels, recutting chambers, etc.

The easiest way to get more velocity is, of course, varying the ammo. But there is an absolute limit of safe pressure for each gun, regardless of SAAMI standards, just because they do have different tolerances.

But I have to ask, "Why?" A loose chamber or a shot out barrel are not going to be fixed easily.

Ol` Joe
December 24, 2011, 11:41 AM
The only way to increase velocity in a given gun without changing the barrel length is to raise the pressure of the cartridge, not recommended IMHO, or to lighten the bullet weight. A 150gr 30 cal bullet will fly faster then a 180 in a 308 as example and adding 5K psi to a load will raise velocity too, although the gun might not survive many shots.
A new barrel with tolerances closer to the minimum allowed side will raise pressure slightly over a more looser chamber or bore, and add a couple fps to the total. A longer barrel will also add a few fps.
The only other way I`m aware of is to shoot the newer "Superformance" or "Lite Mag" type loads made with specifically designed powders that increase the peak pressure DURATION and add some velocity.

MUSICALGUNNUT45
December 24, 2011, 12:07 PM
How do you order a higher quality barrel, who makes them?

T Bran
December 24, 2011, 12:26 PM
Unless it is a Savage bolt gun or something else that will allow you to adjust headspace. Barrel replacement is in the realm of a qualified gunsmith or the origional manufacturer. FIND A GOOD SMITH
Luck
T

Fleet
December 24, 2011, 12:42 PM
How do you order a higher quality barrel, who makes them?
To order, contact one or more of these folks:
www.douglasbarrels.net
www.shilen.com
www.pac-nor.com/barrel
A google search will turn up lots of others.

And yes, this is a gunsmith job.

rcmodel
December 24, 2011, 12:48 PM
A 45 colt 1892 lever action with a 16 inch barrel.
Not much to gain with a handgun caliber carbine by going to a longer barrel.
You reach a state of diminishing returns once you get past a long enough barrel to burn the small amount of powder used in handgun calibers. In general, that is about 20".
For what it would cost to rebarrel your Winchester carbine, you could just about buy another 94 rifle with a 24" barrel.

a 7.62x39mm sks rifle.
Not really practical or cost effective to rebarrel an SKS with a 24" tube I would think.

an AR-15 16 inch
Longer AR-15 barrels are widely available and easy to change.
You can expect about 30 FPS more velocity for each inch of barrel over the 16".
A 16" carbine load that gets 3,100 FPS might get 3,200 FPS out of a 20" barrel.

rc

Float Pilot
December 24, 2011, 09:33 PM
First of all you need to read a few reloading manuals.

As said barrel length makes a big difference as does rifling twist rates.

Fr example here are some 6.8mm SPC loads from a 16 inch and a 24 inch AR.


6.8mm SPC 16 to 24 inch barrel conversion velocity and accuracy test.
16 inch barrel, Stag factory 1 in 10 twist SPC-II chamber
24 inch barrel, Black Hole Weaponry, 1 in 11 twist, SPEC II.
Fired at @ 50 degrees F. Alt 350 feet.


90 grain Sierra JHP
28.8 grains H-4198
SSA Brass, CCI-BR-4 primer
COL- 2.200 inch, Lee Crimp
16 inch = 2,908 fps and 0.40 inch group
24 inch = 3,110 fps and 0.75 inch group


100 grain Bulk mystery SP.
29.7 grains H-Benchmark
SSA Brass, Fed 205 primer
COL=2.255 inch, Lee Crimp
16 inch = 2,650 fps Large group
24 inch = 2,750 fps--- 0.50 inch group, no flyers.

100 grain Remington SP
31.5 grains AA-2230
SSA brass, CCI-400
COL-2.225, Lee Crimp
16 inch = 2,580 fps Group over 2 inches
24 inch = 2,765 fps 0.75 inch group

110 grain Nosler Accubond
29.0 grains H-322
SSA Brass, CCI-BR-4
COL-2.265 Lee Crimp
16 inch = 2,554 fps and 1.0 inch group
24 inch = 2,730 fps and one ragged hole at 100 yards.

110 grain Nosler Accubond
25.8 grains AA-1680
SSA Brass, BR-4 primer
COL-2.250, Lee Crimp
16 inch = 2,500 fps and 1.5 in group
24 inch = 2,770 fps and 0.50 inch group average






110 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter
25.8 grains AA-1680
SSA Brass, BR-4 primer
COL-2.250, Lee Crimp
16 inch = 2,470 fps and 2.5 in group
24 inch = 2,608 fps and 1.0 inch group average

110 grain Sierra Pro-Hunter SP
30.8 grains AA-2230
SSA Brass, CCI-400
COL 2,255, Lee Crimp
16 inch = 2,550 fps,,1.0 inch group
24 inch = 2,730 fps ..0.75 inch group


110 grain Hornady JHP.
30.8 grains, AA-2230
SSA brass, CCI-400
COL=2.255, Lee crimp.
16 inch = 2,530 fps.. 2.5 inch group
24 inch = 2,760 fps----1.1 inch group

110 grain Barnes Triple Shock
30.5 grains AA-2230
SSA Brass, CCI-400 primer,
COL-2.237, Lee Crimp
16 inch = 2,550 fps 1.5 inch group
24 inch = 2,820 fps 0.80 inch group

110 grain Hornady Factory Ammo.
110 grain BTHP
16 inch = 2,455 fps
24 inch = 2,699 fps 1.5 inch group
110 grain Ballistic tip type load
16 inch = 2,506 fps
24 inch = 2,790 fps 1.0 inch group

130 grain Sierra S.P flat base
27.0 grains H-Benchmark
SSA brass, Rem 7.5 primer
COL= 2.55 inch, Lee crimp
16 inch = 2,220 fps1.0 inch group
24 inch = 2,480 fps and 1.0 inch group
No pressure signs.

Fired from 24" BHW barreled Stag AR, with stock military trigger, fixed 6 power Leupold scope with heavy dulplex. Using C-Mags

1.
90gr Sierra HP
29.0gr H-4198
SSA/CCI-41
2.260col LFC
3,108 fps
1.5 inch group strung vertically (see pic)

2.
90gr Sierra HP
28.8gr H-4198
SSA/CCI-41
2.260col / LFC
3,115 fps
0.75 inch group (yes better with less powder than above)

3.
90gr Sierra HP
32.0gr Benchmark
SSA/CCI-41
2.260col / LFC
2,970 fps
0.50 inch group

4.
90gr Sierra HP
31.8gr H-322
SSA/CCI41
2.255col / LFC
3,020 fps HIGH PRESSURE SIGNS
1.5 inch group

100 grain Speer HP
26.8 gr RL-7
SSA/CCI41
2.255col / LFC
2,873 fps
small group with 1st and last round flyers

100 grain Speer HP
33.0 gr Xterminator
SSA/CCI-41
2.255 col / LFC
2,900 fps 1.0 inch group

jhnrckr
December 24, 2011, 10:00 PM
I was thinking about experimenting with a couple of guns.

A 45 colt 1892 lever action with a 16 inch barrel.

a 7.62x39mm sks rifle.

an AR-15 16 inch

and if the same variables apply with a handgun, A 1911 in 45 acp

Sounds like you are chasing ghosts trying to improve velocity on these guns. The easiest fix would be to buy a 20" upper for your AR-15. You might gain 100-150 fps but after spending $500 on an upper you will get a POI an inch higher. from the looks of your collection you could use a bolt action, get a .243 and you will have a new gun and a lot of extra fps.

Lonerider357
December 24, 2011, 10:07 PM
more powder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

MUSICALGUNNUT45
December 25, 2011, 02:07 AM
Sounds like you are chasing ghosts trying to improve velocity on these guns. The easiest fix would be to buy a 20" upper for your AR-15. You might gain 100-150 fps but after spending $500 on an upper you will get a POI an inch higher. from the looks of your collection you could use a bolt action, get a .243 and you will have a new gun and a lot of extra fps.
I have a 243 mossberg.

LoonWulf
December 25, 2011, 03:35 AM
As has been stated the simple answers are to add more powder or more barrel length. To add more powder safely, youll generally have to go to a larger case, and or stronger action, tho you can achive some extra umph with hot handloads in a long chamber. Adding more powder will eventually get you into the realm of diminishing returns, a 300wm from a 20" or shorter tube is little more then a very loud .30-06. Adding barrel length will as stated give you more duration of thrust behind the projectile, it too will also eventually hit a point where you have diminishing returns, as you run out of fuel to excelerate the bullet.

The end result is you have to balance pressure and duration, with saftey and handling. If your really looking for velocity for velocities sake, then you want the most pressure for the longest possible duration. IE a huge case, small bullet, and a long, LONG barrel.
You will still run out of gas before you get much above 4000 fps with most "normal" types of rifles. On the other hand you wont be able to carry most guns that generate over 4500fps.

DoubleMag
December 25, 2011, 05:59 AM
The only way to increase velocity in a given gun without changing the barrel length is to raise the pressure of the cartridge, not recommended IMHO...

I'm suprised no one has suggested molycoating the bore? After a firelap, extra extra clean, molycoat the bore . This decreases pressures and somewhat velocities, but allows a bump-up in powders to increase.... velocities.

If you don't have access to a loader you will lose the speed advantage but gain lubricity and ease of maintenance. There's moly preparations that you swab into the bore kind of like a grease. Then firing the gun impregnates/plates the bore. You can also hopefully still find moly in a spray can and coat your loaded rounds. But again the best results are handloadings.

greenlion
December 25, 2011, 08:24 AM
I was thinking about experimenting with a couple of guns.

A 45 colt 1892 lever action with a 16 inch barrel.

a 7.62x39mm sks rifle.

an AR-15 16 inch

and if the same variables apply with a handgun, A 1911 in 45 acp.


Solution:

Trade your guns in and buy
1. A lever action in 45-70
2. An M14 in .308 caliber
3. An Armalite AR10 chambered for .243 win

lastly, Shoot +p .45acp's

velocette
December 25, 2011, 08:55 AM
If you are wishing to maximise velocity without modifying the rifle, there are some things you can do.
1, Use a lighter projectile, obvious of course.
2, Handload your rounds to the max FOR YOUR RIFLE only.
3 Buy the ammunition from several manufacturers designed for maximum velocity, one name I recall is "superformance"
4, Select brass for reloading that has the highest internal capacity, typically the lightest brass available. Thus capable of holding the largest amount of propellant.
5, Seat your bullets as far out as possible to maximise your case internal capacity, again to maximise the amount of propellant.
6, Avail yourself of newly engineered propellants designed for maximising velocity without overpressure.
7, Use a boattail projectile, it has less surface area than a flat base (for slightly less friction in the bore) and a higher BC for retaining velociy downrange.

All of the above can yield perhaps a 10% velocity improvement

After that, you get into re-chambering your rifle which begins with the "improved" cartridges such like P.O. Ackley's improved. These do not demand re-barreling, just a chamber reamer for the selected round and a gunsmith to do the work. If that's not enough, prepare to spend lots of money or trade your rifle for one that has the velocity you seek.

Roger

WYcoyote
December 25, 2011, 12:58 PM
Good advice from velocette above, I would add coating your bullets with HBN.
If upgrading barrels I would go 3 groove rifling and nitriding to get a velocity bump.

SlamFire1
December 25, 2011, 01:14 PM
I was thinking about experimenting with a couple of guns.

A 45 colt 1892 lever action with a 16 inch barrel.

a 7.62x39mm sks rifle.

an AR-15 16 inch

Gas guns are designed to function within a limited envelope of pressures. It won't damage them to go lower but higher pressures will over accelerate the action, cause malfunctions, and possibly damage them. I think you will stop at the malfunction stage. I have lent my .22 cleaning rod to many a AR shooter to knock out their empties after firing turbo charged reloads. At higher pressures the mechanism will pull the rims off.

I am trying to remember an article on loading for a M1892, but modern M1892s can take far more pressure than old ones, and can take far more pressure than Colt SAA's or their replicas. A good 45 LC rifle action should be able to handle as much pressure as a 44 Magnum, assuming good solid head cases.

You are hosed with a M1911. While CE Harris wrote an article for the American Rifleman using 250 grain bullets, back in the 80's, I guarantee over time using heavy or hot loads, you will peen your frame.

I had a frame peen out on a new Colt Combat Elite. It was due to misalignment causing early unlock. The pistol recoiled hard.

It took about 3000 rounds, Colt replaced the frame but did nothing about the early unlock. They also did not extend the warranty which was around three years from the time of purchase.

So I sent my Combat Elite off to true M1911 experts: Wilson Arms. The work they did cost more than the original pistol, but after dealing with corporate hacks, I was willing to pay the price for the best.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Pistols%20various/DSCN0747ColtCombatreduced.jpg

gamestalker
December 25, 2011, 01:24 PM
This has been the grey area for of many rifle's I've been reloading for over the years. If sacrficing accuracy to some degree isn't a major problem for you, increasing the powder charge, and increasing seating depth, while doing both in small controlled increments will often yeild some improvement in velocity for the slower barrel. I also use slow burning powders, which has been very effective in reducing excessive pressure spikes. You can also experiement with different bullets and find one that will bring velocity up in the slower barrel, and then run another bullet for the faster barreled action that will come close to matching the other?

But the bottom line fact, is some rifles even if they are the same exact model and barrel length, simply won't produce the same velocities. I have 2 Rem. 700's in 7mm RM, and no matter what I do, they run consistenly 100 fps apart. Both have been hand lapped too!

And I'm sure as a reloader and shooter you must be aware that velocity isn't always going to deliver the best accuracy. I've been fortunate in that I can run at the upper end with most of mine and still maintain acceptable accuracy. But in your quest to find the magical match up in velocity, you'll find that there is a huge number of variables in play that go way beyond what you can easily control with the most obvious and simple solutions at hand.

Hummer70
December 29, 2011, 11:44 AM
Buy the program Quickload and you can experiment all day with different calibers, barrel lengths, propellants, bullets etc and not waste your money buying multiple guns to gain limited knowledge. I have found the program does quite well and will really awaken you as to what will work best in different calibers insofar as velocity and pressures are concerned. By the way I have found best accuracy from those Quick Load projections that are just below the yellow line.


Rules of the Road:

The shorter the barrel the slower the bullet.

The slower the bullet the terminal ballistics will suffer.

Higher velocity does not necessarly equal increase in accuracy.

Just because it has a certain name on it doesn't mean you have quality but moreover you have just been the victim of a gun writer.

If you read it in a gun magazine you can be assured of two things, it is within your focal length and that you can read.

PT Barnum said it best, "There is a sucker born every minute."

Just because you have a 5000.00 rifle doesn't mean it will shoot better than a 1000.00 rifle with same ammo.

If you have marginal striker energy you are going to get vertical dispersion at long range regardless of your load. This happens well before you get a misfire. Primers have to be hit hard and fast to work well and all primers are not equal.

Case in point I just did another primer study and used four different primers, three of them with same load, bullet, brass, rifle gave SD of 12 and 13 fps. One gave 8.

A man is no better than his tools.

kludge
December 29, 2011, 05:47 PM
I was thinking about experimenting with a couple of guns.

A 45 colt 1892 lever action with a 16 inch barrel.

H110. Magnum primers. "Ruger Only" loads.

a 7.62x39mm sks rifle.

A-1680 or RL-7

an AR-15 16 inch

Put a 20" barrel on it.

and if the same variables apply with a handgun, A 1911 in 45 acp.

Don't mess with it.

Hope that helps.

HKGuns
December 29, 2011, 06:01 PM
Advancing on your enemy. The forward momentum adds to the velocity of your round on target.

Chris-bob
December 29, 2011, 09:10 PM
Advancing on your enemy. The forward momentum adds to the velocity of your round on target.
That and working out so when you throw the rifle, the velocity of it flying through the air with the bayonet out increases due to your increased strength.

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