Mega Thread of Batoning Wisdom

Just watched a Youtube video from a guy that broke his cold steel knife batoning through fire wood. Cold Steel did replace it, blaming a faulty heat treat. But also included a letter disparaging the customer for batoning. Batoning may not be a traditional use for a large knife, but I think we all expect our big choppers to perform this task. Also cold steel said to use the knife to craft a wedge. If im lost in the woods and need to start a fire with what am I going to craft a wedge out of to split fire wood?????????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiVeNOpvYMs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=vBnXhhfRwE8&feature=endscreen

I tend to agree with Cold Steel. I try to protect my knife's edge and reserve it for cutting tasks.

Is there really a need to use a knife that way. I'm not saying you can't do the batoning with a knife, just that I've have found better options. I like a belt axe or tomahawk for cutting firewood or making expedient shelters. Over the past few years I have taken to carrying a Gerber folding saw with me. Much easier and faster than trying to hack through a sapling or limb with a knife.

I don't baton with any knife, and don't understand the internet fascination with the process. The fact that he broke his knife that way should tell us something, faulty heat treat or not. As PRM says, a small hatchet and a folding saw are the right tools for the job. If you are lost in the woods and break your knife, then you are up the proverbial creek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiVeNOpvYMs

:D

Not necessarily the best possible way of splitting wood for a fire, is it?

"this is steel - this is wood" comment made me sigh. Such depth of knowledge...

---

And yes, it is abuse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5W6r5U7yBE&feature=related

Look. Too easy, too fast, too safe...and no action outfit.

Boring.

I make mine to take "abuse", which I don't consider batoning to be. I figure that if a blade can't take being used as a hatchet, splitting wedge, or in dire circumstance a pry bar, then it's not something I'd want on my belt.

Back in the day, Cold Steel made its nut when they introduced their popular chisel-pointed, Kraton gripped tanto blade. The advertisement for it showed it driven through a car door to prove its toughness. Guess their idea of abuse has changed, eh?

I would never dream of batoning a valued blade that I own.....unless it was the only tool I had in a really bad situation. So is there validity to wanting to see a blade take it? To me yes.

"I make mine to take "abuse", which I don't consider batoning to be."

Yes, if you design a knife to be so used... it's not abuse.

I consider it abuse. If you want to split wood use wedges and a maul. You want to chop, use an axe. You want to make shakes “batton”, use a froe. Froes have been used for centuries.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/knives/IMG_10761362Froe.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/knives/Forebetter.jpg


I do not understand this trend to make knives into axes, pry bars, or froes. Each application has forces and requires different steels and heat treatments. If you broke a hard, high cutlery grade steel beating and twisting it, that’s abuse in my book.

If im lost in the woods and need to start a fire with what am I going to craft a wedge out of to split fire wood?????????

Pick up dead wood and start the fire. Then, turn on the GPS function of your cell phone and use google maps to direct you to a road.

When did Knife go from Knife- noun: Tool used for cutting
to
Knife -noun: axe?

Im with Cold Steel here, they replaced the blade (kudos for standing by a product even though it was abused, most companies wouldn't do that), and asked the guy to stop destroying his equipment. I am also firmly in the camp of folks who say get an axe/saw if you need firewood. If you really want a $300 knife and use it like a axe, go for it. But a $30 axe will do a better job, last longer, and be able to tackle much larger logs. Sometimes I think the taciti-cool crowd just gets into the mindset that old cant possible be better.

I am absolutely not a fan of Cold Steel (Leatherneck SF? which is it SF or Marine?) or any Ka-Bar clone knife but that clear enough seems to be a fella asking that knife to do another tool's job - regardless of whether or not some other knife is able to do it.

What, is he gonna tell me he wouldn't have the other tool in some survival environment? Well that is just the environment in which you do not imperil the integrity of your knife by making shingles with it unless you can select a wood better to use for say, cooking on.

Gotta side with CS on this one - much to my dismay.

If you want to split wood use wedges and a maul.

No, no, no, no. You see in an emergency you have to use a big knife to cut down a tree, chop it into nice logs, and split those logs by batoning. That makes sense. Who would want to collect dead + dry branches, for example. No one, because that would be crazy.

I've done it enough to teach myself how to do it, but really never felt comfortable batoning a knife, just seems like a broken knife/bad accident in the making.

I think if you have to use a folding knife for a log splitter, you went in unprepared.
And you should break your knife.

But it should be strong enough to use to get you out of a jam you got yourself into by being unprepared.
Maybe just chipped and broken when you get done but still a cutting edge of sorts.
That is not the fault of the knife maker.

If you plan ahead to split firewood?
Bring an ax or wedge.

rc

Not necessarily the best possible way of splitting wood for a fire, is it?

"this is steel - this is wood" comment made me sigh. Such depth of knowledge

Why is it that every Finn think he knows everything there is to know about wood? ;)

I think we all expect our big choppers to perform this task

I'd like my knife to be able to, but I still think it's abuse. When I did it with my Camp Defender on sap-thick pine, I cringed as I did so. And I don't plan on doing it again.

I'm no Cold Steel apologist, but it sounds like they did right by the customer.

John

Back in the day, Cold Steel made its nut when they introduced their popular chisel-pointed, Kraton gripped tanto blade. The advertisement for it showed it driven through a car door to prove its toughness. Guess their idea of abuse has changed, eh?I guess not. They do a lot of things in their videos to prove the toughness of their knives. I think they, and most other reasonable people, believe that a lot of what they do in their demonstrations constitutes abuse.

It's like gun torture tests. Ruger did a test where they plugged the barrel of a P89 (or P85--can't recall) with a bolt, machined part of the slide away and then fired the gun. The gun survived. Do you think for even a pico-instant that Ruger was demonstrating that so that people who purchased their guns could follow suit? Clearly they realized it was abuse--they were just letting you know that they had designed and built one heckuva tough pistol.

As far as the video that prompted this thread goes--I watched it all the way through and I think that he would probably not have broken the knife if he hadn't been set on breaking it. Batoning is really hard on a knife even if it's done "right". If you don't keep your strikes lined up with the knife properly then it's even more likely that something's going to give.

In other words, if the strike is lined up so that the force is straight down through the spine to the blade edge, that's one thing. If the strikes are delivered to the spine such that the line of force is at a significant angle to the line through the spine to the blade edge then it's just a matter of time before something bends or breaks.

Well, batoning is a valid technique and everything, but I don't think anyone would advocate it ahead of using an ax. I also don't think you can call it anything but abuse. Abuse that is apparently warranted (I know how to do it, I have done it, but I have never NEEDED to do it) from time to time, but abuse nevertheless.

One thing about this that always baffles me is people seem to feel that it is necessary to baton full fledged logs. Either pick up dead wood, or failing that, opt to baton smaller, more easily attainable wood sources, like branches. Easier and safer to cut, easier on the knife, and they burn fine. Not to start an internet war about TV survival hosts, but on a few occasions Cody Lundin has done this successfully with his ever-present Mora, and while I love Moras, I don't think anyone thinks of them as being particularly rugged. Anyway, it just makes sense to me that if things have gotten that bad, trying to take apart a piece of wood a foot in diameter is both safer and less energy intensive than cutting down a number of branches that are an inch or so in diameter.

I too have broken a Cold Steel knife "batoning" (a term I haven't heard of before) a piece of wood. The piece of wood? A dried 2x2. The "baton"? Another piece of 2x2. I learned splitting kindeling with a knife back in the Boy Scouts when we all carried canvas rucks and have never had a knife break, but that's what the Cold Steel tanto did. It broke right in half. Two pieces. This was one of the orginals with the brass guard and butt cap. A gift from my brother-in-law. To say I was and still am shocked is an understatement.

As to "batoning"(I'm sorry, this term makes me giggle) being abuse, it seems to be on the same level of abuse as not putting your kid in five different after school programs. All PC and crap. Splitting small pieces of wood is safer and easier to control with a knife than with an axe.

Which is why I was using a knife advertized by punching through cars to split a 2x2. And it broke...in half.

I haven't contacted Cold Steel yet. I'm not sure I want a replacement knife from them. I used to carry that knife as a real live or die tool and it broke splitting a 2x2. (Sorry, I can't seem to let that go)

Timbokhan,

It might be a valid technique, but valid where? In a true emergency you are not going to be splitting logs for firewood... unless your emergency happens to take place on a barren isle, where the only potential source of firewood is driftwood. You split logs in your backyard and on a marked hiking trail where logs are provided for you. What the guy in the video advocates is pure fantasy. Also, his gun/emergency analogy fails miserably as well. He brought the gun in to bolster his ego. Or does he practice throwing his Glock... instead of firing?

In the backwood you typically collect firewood. And because you collect it probably the best tool you could have (also in an emergency) is a good saw.

Edit:
Those of us who have actually made a fire in the backwood know that you can do without a knife, or an axe most of the time. You collect kindling (dry grass, old mans beard, pine resin etc), you collect dry branches and small twigs. Start with the kindling and the twigs and build from there. This is how it goes in the northern hemisphere, at least. I don't know about jungle.

But, if this guy wants to climb a tree with his rear end first, by all means let him.

toivo,

We pretend...

Why ... I don't ... splitting wood for a wood stove, I have done. A lot. I used an axe, a maul, and wedges. It was my chore from about age 10 until I moved out of my parents' house.

Splitting wood for a campfire, I have never done. Put the log in the fire. It will burn. Put one end of a really long long in the fire. Guess what? When the part in the fire is burnt, push in more of the unburned wood. If the log is thick, it will burn longer.

Don't need a saw, don't need an axe, don't need to break a good knife. Just need to get the fire started.

Making shelters, a small axe or saw will work much better, faster, and safer.

Hmmm I disagree most on this one. Cold steel commercials show what there blades "can do", then I buy one and I'm not supposed to use the heck out of it cuz it will break? It can go throw a car door but not wood?

Those of us who have actually made a fire in the backwood

lol so anyone who has "batoned" wood while camping hasnt? Yes collecting small sticks works but so does breaking up some bigger ones. Sometimes I bring a axe some times I bring a big knife. All depends on wieght I want to carry, and things I am planning on doing. Broke up plenty of wood batoning with a small kukri.

Yeah, but kuks tend to be relatively soft steel, and up to 1/2" at the spine.

I don't know when this craze of battoning hit, but I think it's outright abuse of a knife. Is anyone paying attention to the fact that a hatchet, ax, machete or bolo, is tempered noticable lower than a knife?

A knife is a cutting tool. Not an ax, hatchet, pry bar, or log splitter. If you're going to be off in the boonies where if you need to get a fire going no matter what, then carry a folding saw. They work wonders. With a folding saw, saw halfway through a piece of kindling, then hit a tree, ground, rock, or some idiot batoning his knife, and the wood will split right down the grain pattern. I've split lots of wood using nothing but a Fiskars/Gerber sliding blade saw. Or my Opinel saw. It's easy, safer, used way less calories, and is quieter. Of course it's not as macho, wailing away on a bowie size knife, but then not all people see it that way.

I know there's plenty of videos out there on this that there should be no nee3d to beat on you knife. If all else fails, make a wooden wedge to drive in. This can be done with whatever pocket knife you have on you.

I wonder when we passed from the age of experienced outdoors men to fantasy camping?

Carl.

lol so anyone who has "batoned" wood while camping hasnt?

To be completely honest, I get a feeling that most people who make a big fuss about batoning have not. Some might, but most... I have my doubts.

Just look at the first video. To my eyes that is something between awkward and absolutely ridiculous. If you want to make fire that way, fine. What ever rocks your boat.

Carl,

Good question.

I wonder when we passed from the age of experienced outdoors men to fantasy camping?

Carl.

All camping is fantasy since about a 100 or so years ago, after electricity, bathrooms and furnaces started being in every house. If you choose to spend the night in the woods its for fun, same as it was 50 years ago. I fail to see your point. Batoning some kindling is hardly chest thumping. And the next time I see anyone use a wooden wedge they crafted while camping will be the first. But in the spirit of trying new things I will try it out this week. I doubt it will be easier than batoning with a knife, but we will see.

kukri can be 1/2 inch thick
Mine is 1/4 with a 6 inch blade.

A knife is a cutting tool. Not an ax, hatchet, pry bar, or log splitter.

Ever watch a cold steel youtube ad? I'm just saying I was surprised to see the video of the knife breaking and the letter that came with the replacement.

I guess it all comes down to individual thought process. As a kid I was taught to take care of my gear and equipment. Loose or break it and there wasn't money to replace it. I've carried the same fixed blade belt knife for years. It's been camping, on SAR call outs, annual training, and to Afghanistan and back. It's not a full tang survival wonder, really pretty basic, good carbon steel, that takes and holds and edge great (Puukko style). I have no doubt that batoning with it would be abuse, and it would not hold up to that type of use. If I am going to be out for a weekend or longer, I will have a belt axe and a folding saw.

Most days when I'm out on the farm or woods, you will find me carrying a Buck 110 folder or similar. Not going to baton with it either.

I personally see no need or have any desire to chop down trees with my knife.

lobo,

All camping is fantasy since about a 100 or so years ago, after electricity, bathrooms and furnaces started being in every house.

Oh really.

The village I live in got electricity in the 50s. And by the way, because of the unstable power grid (they don't bother to clear the lines) many people still have the means of living without electricity. Wood is commonly used to heat houses. This in a country with one of the highest penetration of wireless internet systems per capita. We had mobile bank access when the most common method of payment in the US was still a posted cheque.

But in the spirit of trying new things I will try it out this week.

Why don't you ask someone to show you how it is done properly, before you draw any conclusions. Besides, as many people have already pointed out, you don't need to split wood before you burn it. Also, if you know what to look for there is almost always plenty of dry kindling available - kindling that does not need to be chopped into smaller pieces. Furthermore, if you really know what you are doing you will gather kindling as you travel, so that you don't have to worry about it when you make camp. But hey, as I said, what ever puts a smile on your face.

All camping is fantasy since about a 100 or so years ago, after electricity, bathrooms and furnaces started being in every house.

Damn, I wish I knew that when I was spending weeks at a time camped in the woodlands and deserts for work, as a requisite part of my job, for the past year.

Believe it or not, there's still some of us that are happy when we can shower and eat an actual meal once a week because we work in the woods the rest of the time.

I have to agree with the folks saying if you feel the need to use a knife to split logs into kindling, you don't really know what you're doing or how to prepare. Use the knife to shave the wood for fine fuel, then twigs, and so on, work your way up to logs. I've done it, it works great and saves energy to boot.

The guy in the videos says, "this is steel, this is wood" but I get the impression he doesn't really understand the correlation. An example: Table saws are really good are ripping boards but can still send one back through your gut when they hit a knot in the wood. I don't know why he assumes hammering on a knife will do what a power tool has difficulty with.

Ever watch a cold steel youtube ad? I'm just saying I was surprised to see the video of the knife breaking and the letter that came with the replacement.Ever read their FAQ?

http://www.coldsteel.com/faqs.html#Guaranteed

Q: Are Cold Steel knives guaranteed?
Warranty: We stand behind our knives and swords 100%. We subject them to the highest standards in the industry and strive to make each as perfect as possible. We warrant that our folding knives, fixed blade sheath knives, and swords are free from defects in workmanship and materials.
This warranty does not cover normal wear and tear, re-sharpening of the blade, damage caused by misuse, lack of normal maintenance, or disassembly.
Remember any knife or sword can break or fail if subjected to sufficient abuse, so please do not use our knives and swords inappropriately and remember no knife or sword should be used as an axe, hatchet, screwdriver, or pry bar.

The videos are marketing and are clearly not intended to demonstrate correct usage of the products but rather to show off their durability.

The fact that they abuse the knives in the videos doesn't mean that they intend for you to use them in that manner any more than Ruger's published test of a P89/P85 meant that they wanted purchasers of their pistols to plug the barrels with bolts and then fire them.

ehh what ever, people can draw what ever conclusion they want about what I know about "camping" becuse I admit to batoning wood lol.

Cold Steel is going to come out with those rediculous commercials and then say that guy was to rough? :) really?

No I never read there warranty, I never bought a cold steel product.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5W6r5U7yBE&feature=related

Look. Too easy, too fast, too safe...and no action outfit.

Boring.
I grew up splitting wood for years for use in my parents' wood-stove (we didn't have electric heat, and they just got a propane stove when I was 17). This is an excellent video. Thanks.

I don't know what the Becker warranty says. But I've "batoned" (glad I finally know what it's called) some wood with one. Yeah, I know knives would last a lot longer if they weren't (EVER) used as pry bars or axes, but sometimes it's easier to use the tool on your belt than to go back to the truck for an axe.

I sometimes baton wood with my Colt Jungle Commander (9" blade that is approx. 3/8" thick). It's held up to the abuse swimmingly. I wouldn't use any of my smaller knives for the purpose.

The fact that they abuse the knives in the videos doesn't mean that they intend for you to use them in that manner any more than Ruger's published test of a P89/P85 meant that they wanted purchasers of their pistols to plug the barrels with bolts and then fire them

Right but CS commercials are implying that if needs be you could do those things with their knives. So are we never to actually test if they are telling the truth? And after one of there products fails its our fault? I have always found the CS ads to be a turn off, and if the warranty is as posted it just seems even more silly.

Right but CS commercials are implying that if needs be you could do those things with their knives.Just as Ruger's test with the P89/P85 implied that you could safely fire a P89/P85 with a plugged barrel. For example, if you had a squib lodge in the barrel the gun wouldn't come apart if you fired a second shot.

H&K used to advertise that as part of the testing process they lodged a bullet in the barrel and then cleared it by firing a second shot. Clearly the test implies you could safely do that if you absolutely had to, but I guarantee that if you had a squib at the range and decided to clear it by firing a second round instead of pushing the bullet out with a rod H&K would certainly claim that you had abused the gun.

That extra safety margin of strength is there so that if you absolutely can't clear the squib correctly you can just keep shooting. It's not put there to give owners carte blanche to abuse the gun....are we never to actually test if they are telling the truth?Sure, test it all you like. Just don't expect the company to replace the product if damage occurs. The fact that a wide safety/strength margin is designed into a product as a selling point doesn't mean that the company will warrant the product if someone decides to test that safety/strength margin and ruins the product in the process.

disagree. safely do that if you absolutely had to,

so if I ABSOLUTELY (hypathetical question) had to baton through wood I cant with a Cold Steel knife? The Cold Steel Knife actually wont survive doing things like they show in their ads?

Oh really.

The village I live in got electricity in the 50s. And by the way, because of the unstable power grid (they don't bother to clear the lines) many people still have the means of living without electricity. Wood is commonly used to heat houses. This in a country with one of the highest penetration of wireless internet systems per capita. We had mobile bank access when the most common method of payment in the US was still a posted cheque.



I would suggest owning an axe then. And while working in the woods I would imagine you have more than a bowie knife with you. You guys think I would or do chop fire wood all day with a fixed blade? Or am recommending not owning a maul? Its my opinion that Cold Steel makes claims how tough their stuff is and then cries dont abuse our blades.

so if I ABSOLUTELY (hypathetical question) had to baton through wood I cant with a Cold Steel knife? The Cold Steel Knife actually wont survive doing things like they show in their ads?I addressed this in an earlier post.

If you want to baton through wood with one of the sturdier Cold Steel knives I think you could do it as long as you don't start out with the intent to destroy the knife.

1. Keep the strikes aligned so that the line of the force of the strike goes straight down through the line made by the edge of the knife and the spine of the knife. If you repeatedly strike at an angle significantly off that line it's highly unlikely that the knife will last very long.

2. Try to aim the strikes so that they hit the knife over the wood, not out on the tip of the knife where it overhangs the wood. If you're splitting huge logs, you're probably not going to be able to do that.

3. If you find that the knife suddenly stops moving through the wood in spite of vigorous strikes, consider that maybe it's time to find another piece of wood to split instead of finding a bigger piece of wood to hit the knife with.

Watch the CS video for the Pocket Bushman and note how the person in the video performs the batoning.

If you did break the knife in the process, it sounds like Cold Steel would replace it and advise you that they consider batoning to be abuse of the knife. In other words, if they treat you like the guy in the video, they would stand behind their product IN SPITE of the abuse but they would let you know that if you break it again while abusing it, you're on your own.

No I never read there warranty, I never bought a cold steel product. ~ lobo9er

So your rant is about a product you don't own???


I sometimes baton wood with my Colt Jungle Commander (9" blade that is approx. 3/8" thick). It's held up to the abuse swimmingly. ~ Rail Driver


It can be done, and if the knife is heavy enough, you will get by. I find it interesting that even those who use this technique admit it is abuse. I'll keep my blades for cutting, and use an axe or saw for bigger tasks.

1. Wild Bear Model, from Kauhava, Finland's puukko making capitol. Designed and made by Harri Merimaa.

2. Buck 110 ~ Buck Custom Shop

3. SVORD Peasant Knife

4. Opinel #8, Olive Wood handle

5. DGW Buckskinners Hawk (1987)

I have an emergency box in my truck.

In the box, along with the other emergency supplies, there are three or four different kinds of knife (hunting, fishing, utility/bait, and a large -- like #12 -- Opinel), a light folding saw, and an all-steel Estwing 26" camp axe.

(There's also a tire thumper in there. You never know when you'll need to baton a knife through some emergency cheese & salami.)

If I had to overnight out in the woods up here, I'd collect dry fallen wood if I could. Right now, however, there's a blanket of snow over pretty much everything (no, not feet of snow, just inches), so random dry wood collection might be impaired. If I had to chop the firewood, the axe would be the go-to tool.

If I had to hike out, the axe would likely stay behind, depending on circumstances (it's not light), but in that case the folding saw would come. I generally have all the knives I'm likely to need on my person, but there's enough variety in the box to take up any slack.

If I worked at it, I could probably contrive a scenario where I might need to baton a knife, but in all my outdoor years I've never identified one.

It's good to know that I have that option, you know, if I've had to tear off my shirt to use as a tourniquet for a fallen friend, and my trousers for carrying water, and, uh, something ate my shoes, and all I had left was a knife and my underwear (pretty sure that chapter would be considered "badly written"), it's comforting that I could split logs with my knife by beating on it with other logs and then start a fire by rubbing my toe nails together.

However, since my caveman card is set to expire before too long, I'm probably just going to cheat and make sure I have an axe and/or a saw with me.

I mean, can you see me, aging and overweight geek, stuck in the woods and breaking my best knife? Can you imagine the consternation? Why, those dirty rats! I'm gonna grab my cell and file a complaint . . . what? . . . no signal? Crap!

It may be inconvenient to carry the extra ounces of an axe, but given the alternatives, I'll take it.

When camping, I always bring an axe along with my knives. I have knives that are 30 to 40+ years old, and still in great shape. I have never abused them. Heck, my camp axe is at least 40 years old. I bought it when I was a boy scout.

Yep, I have a "big" knife now, but I would not get upset if I was abusing it and it broke. Would serve me right. That is what my machete is for, which has been used hard, but is still in good shape.

Not that anyone said anything about it, but i meant to say that it is safer and less energy intensive to cut small branches, not logs. Sorry.

Also, while i am no huge fan of it, why the dislike? I mean, i agree that it is abusive, but isn't it better to know how to do a technique like this and never need than need it and not have the experience to do it? It's just something to add to the toolbox, not something to replace the whole set of tools.....

Cold Steel doesn't make knives - they sell knifes made for them - they make money lots of it. I have a few Cold Steel knifes and I like them they are the sharpest knifes from the factory. But they are made to cut and slice not chop or pry.
If you want to batton buy a Busse or Swamp rat or Scrap Yard knife - they are made to batton with.
BTW, the only thing I ever battoned was a cuisinart kitchen clever thru some 1/2 frozen lobster tails - cuisinart clevers do not hold up well to battoning! It survived but the edge bent.

I have read that knots are very hard and if you want to break your knife while battoning try going thru a nice hard knot in the wood.

BTW, the only thing I ever battoned was a cuisinart kitchen clever thru some 1/2 frozen lobster tails - cuisinart clevers do not hold up well to battoning! It survived but the edge bent.

I have read that knots are very hard and if you want to break your knife while battoning try going thru a nice hard knot in the wood.

I took a chip out of an edge (butcher knife) trying to hack through the end of a bone. I was, what, 25 or 26 years old? Clueless.

Many years later, and much wiser, I was splitting firewood with a machete (Cold Steel, BTW), and I struck a knot. It took me more than an hour with a file to repair the damage to the edge. Knots are stubbornly unforgiving.

I quit using the machete for wood splitting and went to a Fiskars splitting axe. Yes, I know, it's against the rules to use a tool actually designed for the job, and I could get my man card pulled, but the splitting axe didn't care about knots, and laughed in their general direction.

Arfingreebly,

:D

Thank you. That was a good start for the morning!

lobo sez:
I would suggest owning an axe then. And while working in the woods I would imagine you have more than a bowie knife with you.

Don't worry, I think I must have about twenty axes - Billnäs, Kellokoski and Fiskars.

What do you imagine there is in our forests that requires me to carry a bowie? No. I typically carry a opinel #8 in my pocket. That is quite enough, even for a longer stay. Come to think of it, I would not choose a bowie even if I had to stay in the woods for a year.

EDIT:

Timbokhan,

Also, while i am no huge fan of it, why the dislike? I mean, i agree that it is abusive, but isn't it better to know how to do a technique like this and never need than need it and not have the experience to do it? It's just something to add to the toolbox, not something to replace the whole set of tools.....

Because there is never really a need for it. There are always more elegant (faster, safer) ways of achieving the same result. And in an emergency the very last thing you want to do is risk breaking your only knife (or fingers). And it is a risk even if you have a busse. Wood can be very, very tough.

Also, in an emergency you will not have logs to split + typically there is no need to split firewood.

If you take a look at woodworking tools, like the froe, adze, broadaxe, and drawknife, you can see dramatic differences between blade design, shape, and handle design for utility (the only thing that matters when shaping or working woods of various species).
A fixed blade knife just doesn't have what it takes to be good at paring sections of hard or softwoods.

Gotta side with Cold Steel here.

How'd this whole batoning thing get started anyway? :uhoh:

Never mind. I don't wanna know. :barf:

you guys are funny :) The bowie reference was meant to be a little tongue in cheek.

Don't worry, I think I must have about twenty axes
I wasnt to worried, I was confident you might have owned an axe of some sort.
I enjoy hatchets and axes too, at antique shops and garage sales it tough for me to walk by an old rusty one at a reasonable price to rehandle and give a nice edge to. For my excursions in the woods sometimes one of them follows depends if I am hiking in far. I usually leave the froe and the adze in the barn though.

How'd this whole batoning thing get started anyway?
It probably started when someone had a chunk of wood they wanted to be be smaller and all they had was a big knife and realized it was a fairly good solution to his or her problem.
If it was a case knife, or most other knife companies I wouldnt have gave it a 2nd thought. But its cold steel and they have the most rediculous videos, showing the majority of their products stabbing through things like car hoods. They advertise as the baddest thing around. If only Cold Steel knives came with the extra short black shorts featured in the videos! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grmevfb-8D8
I'm still searching for the a leather neck knife ad, but this an example of a typical cold steel video. This one might even be a bit toned down.

lobo:
It probably started when someone had a chunk of wood they wanted to be be smaller and all they had was a big knife and realized it was a fairly good solution to his or her problem.

I doubt it. This particular "problem" has been with us for thousands of years - as have solutions, and big knives. The need to bash through wood, cinder blocks, cars etc. with a knife is a fad of the late industrial age. Maybe because there is no need to preserve your tools anymore and the level of heroic medicine is high enough to save most fo...people from their mistakes.

There is a relatively straight forward (but negative) correlation involved here; as our survival/bushcraft/whatever skills get worse, the need for tougher tools grows only stronger.

You can't really blame coldsteel for the style they have chosen for their marketing videos. They want money, so, they are forced to make stuff that appeals for the 99%. Unfortunately that 99% does not have a clue most of the time. Harsh, yes, but also true.

---

Funny that I just mentioned our unstable power grid... it is kaput... again...

Oh well. Fire in the fireplace, candle light, some red wine, good food, excellent company. Life is good.

It also seems I will be making more firewood soon, as one 20m high pine in my backyard just snapped in half like a twig.

Here's the ad for the Leatherneck.

http://www.coldsteel.com/leatherneck-sf.html

It's flat ground from top to bottom, creating a shallow "V" shaped cross section that has proven ideal for cutting slicing, and shearing through a wide variety of materials.

They don't provide one of their torture videos with this ad, and the description, frankly, doesn't begin to give the impression that they believe this knife is a great choice for chopping or batoning.

Here's one that Cold Steel makes that sounds like it might be a better choice for folks who think they may need their knife to do that kind of duty.

http://www.coldsteel.com/trmashica.html

These very popular, time tested knives have been in our line for many years and are ideal for just about any mission. Made out of SK-5 High Carbon Steel, they are precision ground, heat treated and Mar Tempered in our state of the art factory in Taiwan to rival the strength, toughness, and edge retention of our famous Japanese swords.

So your rant is about a product you don't own???


I wonder if stirring the pot using a Cold Steel knife is abuse ;)

I think the Busse heavy duty knives ARE designed for such abuse. It has to do with blade design, hardening technique and steel selection. I don't like Busses that much as knives but they make good wood/concrete splitting devices if that is your bag. I will NOT be battoning
my Camp Defender when I get it, I have hatchets and mauls ect.
IMHO Cold Steel knives are not great knives, but they are (generally) good knives and the company is fair in it's policies.

How'd this whole batoning thing get started anyway?

First time I saw it, it was on a knife forum. There is the knife forum, lets call it “Badforums”, and the people there love to chop things with their knives. Based on the claims on how much time they spend in the woods, those busy beavers must have generators and satellite dishes with them in the woods as they are posting all the time. I have a mental image of these guys wacking trees, mail boxes, fences, as they skip their way from Jr High School on the way to the wilderness.

There are a few knives that work well as choppers, kukris’s and variants of machetes, but these are never as efficient for cutting as hatchets, axes, or saws. The Badforum “experts” are all the time posting pictures of the giant trees they have chopped down with their knifes. Viewers of this idiocy want to imitate these “experts” and the market has responded. There are all sorts of huge, heavy, fat, “knives” that chop well, but try using them to slice an apple. Or skin a squirrel, or cut the breast out of a dove.

I remember showing a Western Bowie to my old Boss, a WWII veteran. He said, “Imagine having to carry that thing!”. He humped 100 pound packs in the Pacific and at the end of the day, no one in their right mind wants to carry more than they have to.

In a real survival situation, one which you cannot drive to the grocery store, calories are important. Chopping trees with knives is extremely energy inefficient. You will burn more energy, a lot more energy, than if you were using a tomahawk, light axe, axe, or saw to gather your firewood. Calories, food are not an issue for obese Americans, but in many parts of the world, subsistence farming is common. For those unfortunates, if they burn more energy than they grow, they die of starvation.

There are all sorts of huge, heavy, fat, “knives” that chop well, but try using them to slice an apple. Or skin a squirrel, or cut the breast out of a dove.



true but I dont process dove with my kuk. I'm an avg. joe but I have been able to buy more than one knife in my time. I dont walk into the woods to baton wood all day to look tough either :) I personally think I would look tougher walking around with a splitting maul. In fact I dont split that much wood if at all while camping. I find it interesting there is so much hate for a technique. I also find it interesting that y'all sound like you think that people who admit to batoning through wood use this technique only. And furrther more use every knife they own in that fashion.

I have enjoyed the conversation, but I should have started off explaining my thoughts on the contrast between cold steel commercials vs their letter of discontent of the abuse of one of their blades.
no one in their right mind wants to carry more than they have to.

right so sometimes I bring a bigger knife instead of a hatchet as it is lighter. makes sense to me. And works with your philosphy.

Calories, food are not an issue for obese Americans, but in many parts of the world, subsistence farming is common.:scrutiny:
I'm a fraid I dont see the correlation. And did I ever say anyone needs to cut down trees? But thanks for the critism of americans, I was about to tie on an extra donut before bed.

I don't like Busses that much as knives but they make good wood/concrete splitting devices if that is your bag.
I have to ask which busses you have looked at? Because a few look like they would make excellant knives. I wish I could say I owned one. so I dont have 1st hand expieriencehttp://bussecompanystore.com/sar-6le1777.jpg
http://bussecompanystore.com/sar-6le1777.jpg

http://hogcult.com/gear_img/knives/busse-OffDuty-2008514.jpg
Another pretty busse that might make a decent knife:)

I have a mental image of these guys wacking trees, mail boxes, fences, as they skip their way from Jr High School on the way to the wilderness.

LOL!!!

This is so accurate it's hilarious.

If you read knife enthusiast forums long enough you begin to see a pattern emerging of imaginary function over substance. I mean it's cool by me to be into something, I've owned more knives than most and can't really point fingers...but you see people saying things like "I really need an indestructible chopper. I have a tiny gentleman's knife and a sturdy mid-sized folder, but I really can't get by without something that will do some serious chopping. Oh, and I want to test out the new [whatever] steel from [insert company here] to see if it's better than the stuff I currently use."

I mean to some extent this sort of person has driven market innovation, but it becomes very clear that the person's hobby IS knives, not using knives for other purposes...just, knives. And when you lose ALL context things get kind of goofy.

Kind of like Candlepowerforums. Those guys are awesome and no doubt I need to credit them for driving the demand that led to me being able to get a sub-$100 470 lumen pocket flashlight recently. But I SERIOUSLY saw a thread where a guy was polling people on the following question:

"I've been wanting a 2-cell thrower for a long time. I am debating whether I want a digitally controlled or current controlled light, though. The digital is slightly brighter but is only compatible with 1x18650, whereas the current controlled lets me use 2xCR123a as well."

And the most common response was "Get both - you know you want to anyway! :)"

I mean, the question is understandable if geeky...the answer stretches the previous boundaries of geekiness though.

"I've been wanting a 2-cell thrower for a long time. I am debating whether I want a digitally controlled or current controlled light, though. The digital is slightly brighter but is only compatible with 1x18650, whereas the current controlled lets me use 2xCR123a as well."

now where have I heard questions and answers like that, but pertaining to guns and knives that probably aren't necassary to ones survival? :)

I agree with Conwict. If it wasn't for some blokes pushing for rediculous strong knives, products like the BK2 might not have been available for 60 or so dollars. Again speaking about a product I dont own, I think the BK2 is a great size knife and is on my short list. Is it practical for every job, no. Could it be considered over kill, yes.

Hey where is the spooge blade coating on dem Busse's ? They actually do look pretty and don't say "whack me" like all most all I've seen.

[You can't really blame coldsteel for the style they have chosen for their marketing videos. They want money, so, they are forced to make stuff that appeals for the 99%

I dont blame them for their marketing. I blame them for marketing Cold Steel to be the baddest dog on the block, and then calling out someone for abusing their blades. In My Humble Opinion the letter should have something more like.

Cold steel we will gladly replace the knife.... The Leather Neck particular design is for.... not for ... here are examples of our knives that will fit your purpose. we build the toughest knives.....thank you AND THANKY YOU for the FREE ADVERTISING ON YOURTUBE.[/
Not my business, but just my thoughts.

I dont blame them for their marketing. I blame them for marketing Cold Steel to be the baddest dog on the block...

:scrutiny:

Quote:
I dont blame them for their marketing. I blame them for marketing Cold Steel to be the baddest dog on the block...


you didnt finish the quote.....

marketing as the baddest ..... and then complaining about abusing their stuff

They market as if their stuff can take anything that can be thrown at them. And clearly Their actual warrant makes it clear they really can't.

Hey where is the spooge blade coating on dem Busse's ?
funny what you can see when ya look! ;)

lobo,

I did not need to.

You are still notcomplainingcomplaining.

When was the last time you saw marketing that was simply matter-of-fact, and completely without hype?

Twist it, spin it, turn it around, but the facts* we have established remain. Coldsteel has acted in a responsible way, acknowledged the heat treat issue, replaced the product, and also clarified their stance on batoning for the customer. You don't think that is enough?

*a reminder; batoning is abuse and waste of your energy

*a reminder; batoning is abuse and waste of your energy

Agree to disagree. I have used the technique in various applications to know it woks. Do I sit around all day doing so, no. Batoned one Instance all summer, and there was no one to see how tuff I was, bummer. But I did pound my chest after for good measure just in case I was being spied on. I dont know what you do but it sounds like you spend alot of time in nature so I am sure you have your own system that works for you. I am hard on my stuff admittingly so. Wether its abusive is up to you, I would imagine you occasionally might be hard on your equipment to the point some may think its abuse.
sorta round in circle here.

Now if I broke the tip of my CS knife on my car hood would I recieve a brow beating letter? :) lol

they are the sharpest knifes from the factory.

vynx, perhaps you meant to say, they are the sharpest knives from the factory you've owned. I will amend my earlier statement- and agree with you- that the Busse family would almost certainly NOT call batoning abuse, but then, I think they probably have the best warranty in the business. When they made a folder, they said, "This obviously can't be as strong as our fixed blades, so we'll say the warranty on these is whatever you (the customer) say it is."

John

Calories, food are not an issue for obese Americans, but in many parts of the world, subsistence farming is common.

LOL and where are you from again? I dont think we want to take cold steel or batoning to personal level. I'm thinking europe what ever part it is you are from has its share of social problems that really have nothing to do with this. And since batoning is calorie depleting I'm doubting anyone who practice such a technique would be obese.

I mean to some extent this sort of person has driven market innovation, but it becomes very clear that the person's hobby IS knives, not using knives for other purposes...just, knives. And when you lose ALL context things get kind of goofy.
An example of materialism for materialism sake. Hoarders buying expensive things and reinforcing each other’s additions.

Knife forums also reinforce brand loyalty for contributing brands and create hatred for non contributing brands. Cold Steel is not on Badforums and the owner encouraged hate of Cold Steel to run wild. Hate threads that ran a 1000 posts and more. The haters created a virtual religion of hate against Cold Steel.

Unfortunately it spills over to other forums. :(

Bah.

I personally haven't paid much attention to what folks on BF have said about Cold Steel. I don't like the company because they frequently rip off other folks' designs, and in an industry filled with personable people, Lynn Thompson ain't. As in, the man is just not really worth talking to. Personal experience...nothing to do with BF (where I usually only visit two forums, anyway. The head of one of those, is known for his outstanding business ethics. Also, both of those companies have sent me free knives. Just because).

You might have noticed that my very first comment (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7824867&postcount=18) in this thread said that I agreed with CS, and they seemed to have treated the customer very fairly.

John

Am I the only guy on this forum that will admit to batoning wood with a knfe?
Does anyone else ever or have ever batoned in some fashion? what has been your expierences? Do you consider it to hard on a knife, or does that depend on the particular knife? Have you ever broken a knife?
If you do baton, what knife do you use or have used?

Any knife pics are alway appreciated

http://nepalkhukurihouse.com/uploads/1-l(4).jpg
This isn't my exact knife just the picture from the website I ordered mine from. 6 inch american eagle kukri. This is the knife I baton with from time to time.

I have and sometimes do use the method with my Colt Jungle Commander bowie. Any other knife I have is either too small or too thin to use that method.

I've broken a knife, but that was done getting back inside when my 2 yr old figured out how to lock me out while I was smoking a cigarette.

http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/92/4390cbde9fe34c7eb2d356caa1bc9f5a/l.jpg

No, I have never batoned with a knife.

No, I would not ever consider it.

No, I have never broken a knife.

I never even carry a knife that I would consider batoning with.

As long as I have any folding saw, including the one on my Victorinox farmer, I just saw halfway through, and smack it against something saw cut down, to split it right down the grain.

Carl.

Another batoning thread???::what:

I figured this horse was beat enough this week.http://sz0033.wc.mail.comcast.net/service/home/~/Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=377642&part=2

A lot depends on the knife. Once upon a time in Alaska my group was cold & wet, waiting for pickup, and we needed a fire ASAP. Took my Buck 110 folder & batoned some lumber for kindling (try finding a tree in the Aleutians when you want one). Screwed up the lock on the blade, but otherwise no breakage.

Since I've been making my own blades for about 30 years I make the big ones (over 5") to be able to stand up to that kind of use. Many will say you should be using an axe or a hatchet, but sometimes there just ain't one handy.

Whether a blade will stand up or not depends on blade thickness, material, and edge geometry. I wouldn't want to try batoning a chef's knife, but if that's all I had, you betcha.

Honestly I have never herad of Bad forums or BF until just now. I will check it out see what its all about though.

I think BladeForums was meant.

O sometimes wires dont connect :)

I think it depends on the situation. Ideally, I would never baton. Most survival situations are not ideal. Beating up my best survival tool is a hard decision, but if it's the knife or my life I choose my life every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

lobo,

Agree to disagree.

Yes, I agree you have the right to split logs with a can opener and a bag of peanuts if you so desire. What I am not going to agree to is that it is wise, safe or necessary to ever do so.

I dont know what you do but it sounds like you spend alot of time in nature so I am sure you have your own system that works for you.

I am a carpenter, which means I know something about wood (+forests), and woodworking tools. Also, because I work with wood virtually every day I recognize good technique when I see it. Batoning does not fall into that category.

The "system" you are referring to is not my own, it is the system (with local variations) and I am only familiar with tiny proportion of it. Let me give you an example; the siberian hitch is not something I came up with, but I do use the knot when I am setting up a tarp. Tradition, you know.

As I have said many times; knock yourself out. You don't need my approval.

Never heard of "batoning" until recently.. I think that was by the interwebz as well..

only batoning I ever did was in ROTC with a 36" riot baton and later in law enforcement using a pr24 or asp :neener:

So, sorry, no, I would not use my knife to chop up a log. I will whittle a stick, or I will use an axe to make kindling..

Since there is now a dedicated batoning thread, would someone who finds the "technique" useful describe the circumstances in which it is absolutely necessary to use a knife that way. People keep saying it is for an "emergency", but what kind of emergency, exactly?

Please clarify. And go into detail.

You know, I've been trying to envision the less than ideal scenario and all of the knives I would consider baton worthy that I own ride in a bob that also contains a saw and an ax...

My life didnt depend on it but all ground cover was pretty damp so in one instance I used a knife to break up some slightly bigger sticks that weren't soaked through. It worked. Would a saw or hatchet have worked , yep, but I had a knife and came out on top of that one. I'm not talking logs here either or chopping down any oaks. Generally speaking I frown on cutting down trees or shooting them. what did they ever do to us? ;)

My bush knife is a WWII USMC Corpsman Knife. It handles everything chopping cutting and splitting that I may need done when I'm hiking the back country fly fishing, and taking pictures for several days. (When I was a young man)

As for emergency batoning..What situation would you find yourself in that would require the need to split wood for survival? A Coffee emergency?;) There normally is plenty of kindle size fuel wood laying around for gather.

Yes, I agree you have the right to split logs with a can opener and a bag of peanuts if you so desire. What I am not going to agree to is that it is wise, safe or necessary to ever do so.


ok but my can opener and peanuts is a 1/4 inch piece of leaf spring steel. you dont have to agree that it is safe or wise. Nor do I have change my tune. Hence agree to disagree. I go camping and build fires and have been fairly successful so I too know a thing or two about wood (+forests). As far as carpenty goes it has little to do with this. Do you think I batoned wood work in my house? Or maybe I use saws and power tools also?

As I have said many times; knock yourself out. You don't need my approval.
Right, agree to disagree. Maybe its an American term. It means we dont have to agree. You think I'm wrong and I think you are wrong also, and we stay friends.

A Coffee emergency? Those are nothing to joke about.

In a unexpected turn the moderator shows their might, turning two threads into one MEGA THREAD.

Since there is now a dedicated batoning thread, would someone who finds the "technique" useful describe the circumstances in which it is absolutely necessary to use a knife that way. People keep saying it is for an "emergency", but what kind of emergency, exactly?

Please clarify. And go into detail.

For gods sake... We get it. You think batoning is dumb. For the most part, I agree with you. I don't know why you are on this crusade to put it down to the extent you are. It's a method to split wood. Is it better than an ax? No. Is it better than a chainsaw? No. Have you ever found the need to do it? No. Are there lots of wannabe Mountain Men out there doing it? Absolutely there are. Guess what? Matches, lighters and magnesium firestarters aren't as good as a propane blowtorch in starting a fire, and while I have 5 or 6 of those laying around I don't find it necessary or practical to carry one with me every where I go in the woods, just the same as I don't find it necessary or practical to carry an ax with me every time I wander into the woods.

I think what your missing out on is that not everyone carries a full compliment of cutting tools on them at all times. Your telling me you have never had to cut wood for some reason in the woods? You have always been able to make do with what you find on the ground? I am not nor have I advocated batoning as a primary method of cutting wood, but I can see the value in knowing how to do it just in case I have to.

Scenario: I get a little lost on a dayhike, and have to stay the night in the woods. I decide to build a simple little a-frame shelter to keep the wind off my back. I cannot find appropriate sticks on the ground and I didn't pack an ax on a dayhike, so I use my knife to baton (or, more accurately in this case, hack) off a couple of suitable branches. I then use that same knife to notch them as required. It's not as if it is rocket science to learn how to do this, and it's not like having the knowledge in your head makes you any less of a man.

lobo,

I understand perfectly what "agree to disagree" means, but the problem is that this is not a subjective issue. It is a fact that batoning is... well, you know by now. Meaning that this is not a matter of opinion. You are simply wrong in your claim that batoning is a valid technique you should master "just in case". Just look at the video... phft.

However, if you- and other big knife enthusiasts - want to continue batoning, or climbing the tree with you butt first... by all means. Have fun. Just don't say it is a matter of opinion whether batoning is valid, or not.

Timbokhan,

For gods sake... We get it.

Right, then I must have been talking to myself for the last couple of days?

You think batoning is dumb.

Yeah, I do. Most definitely.

I don't know why you are on this crusade to put it down to the extent you are

As I approach 40 I must be getting grumpy. But, what would you expect me to do? Give it up. Add to the prevalent "hey, everything goes" attitude? I don't think so.

Guess what? Matches, lighters and magnesium firestarters aren't as good as a propane blowtorch in starting a fire

Oh really. Come visit me in the dead of winter, when it is 40 below. Let's see you light a fire with that propane torch.

Moreover, a propane torch is a big hassle compared to old mans beard and magnesium. Add spruce or pine resin to the beard, and you have instant napalm, literally.

I think what your missing out on is that not everyone carries a full compliment of cutting tools on them at all times.

Am I saying that you should carry a full arsenal of cutting implements at all times? No. I have been specifically saying that if you know what you are doing you can manage with Opinel #8. You are the guys who say carrying something I consider to be a short sword around is somehow necessary.

Your telling me you have never had to cut wood for some reason in the woods? You have always been able to make do with what you find on the ground?

Yes, I am telling you that I have never had to chop or baton anything with a big knife in the woods, ever. I have used a saw, and an axe though, but on rare occation.

On the ground? Have you noticed that everything on the ground is usually wet. No, I don't typically use wood picked up from the ground... especially when I am starting a fire. It is much better to collect wood that is dry. Like dead spruce brances, or wood that is dead, but still standing. After you get a good fire going it is pretty much irrelevant what you throw in. And if your firewood is wet, you need to make the fire larger for it to burn well.

Oh, and at any stage, feel completely free to ignore anything and everything I say.

I am not nor have I advocated batoning as a primary method of cutting wood, but I can see the value in knowing how to do it just in case I have to.

Well, I don't see any value, except entertainment IF you are close to home. On a back country hike, forget it. You don't want to risk your knife, or your fingers, period.

So, yes, go ahead and indulge yourself on a dayhike, but please, don't advocate batoning as a valid bushcraft technique, because it is not.

Just don't say it is a matter of opinion whether batoning is valid, or not.
What isnt opinion is that it has worked for me. It seems you may have gotten grumpy or maybe a bit uppity not sure which. Your actually the only one chest thumping. Was my short story of starting a fire not good enough? I had no axe everything was wet and didnt have to hike around looking for dry stuff. Am I now a wanna be? Also my winters dont get 40 below 10 below sometimes but not 40 I cant compete with that so I guess you win.

Guys, are we having another one of those "one true way" arguments?

It is a fact that batoning is possible.

It is also a fact than an axe does a better job.

It is not a fact that a hiker or camper will always have an axe.

It is a matter of opinion (mine, anyway) that more knowledge is better than less knowledge, and that more skill(s) is better than less skill(s).

It is a fact that an axe and knife will weigh more than a knife (or axe) alone. For some people, this fact drives their opinion of how they should proceed.

I prefer to cut wood with a saw, an axe, or a heavy machete. That's a preference, not a natural law.

I'm not going to suggest or imply that someone who prefers to do it differently is somehow stupid. To do that, I would have to assume I know more about their circumstances and scenarios than they do, and that's simply not true.

I may not be able to conceive of a valid reason for someone else's choice, but that's as far as I'll go with that.

I'm old enough and been down enough road to realize that some of the things I "knew" as facts, simply weren't so.


Now, y'all can banter back and forth about your preferences and experiences and your opinions of others' preferences, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But if y'all begin declaring what you believe is going on in someone else's head as a matter of "fact," I do believe I'll take exception to that approach.

So let's park our omniscience and confine ourselves to the facts as we know them from our experience and our opinions and preferences expressed as such.

Play ball.

Well before the internet, as a Boy Scout I was taught how to make kindling for a fire by whittling with a pocket knife. The next step was to break dead branches with your hands and pile them around the kindling and put a match in the middle. If that did not work your best option was to use sterno on the kindling and that would get things going.

We were also taught how to use a hatchet to make kindling. Hatchets were very useful in pounding in tent stakes. You could cut up dead branches with a hatchet. I have no doubt that you could “batton” on the back of a hatchet if you absolutely needed to make shakes. The steel temper in hatchets is lower than knives due to the fact that they need to survive a lot of twisting and pounding. Hatchets are very useful and very tough.

There is a lot of utility in the combination of pocket knife and hatchet.

I remember a guy who had a Marine bolo knife. That was an impressive cutting tool, I suppose if you wanted a substitute cutting tool for a hatchet, that would work.

Wish I had gotten a Marine bolo knife when they were $10.00. Now the things are collectable.

lobo,

Yes, claiming to know a fact is considered uppity these days, because we have been conditioned that you have to be PC, and everyone must leave a conversation with a smile on their face - reassured that there are no facts in the world, only lifestyles. Not for me, thank you.

I have pointed out, as have others, that batoning can damage a knife. That is a fact recognized even by the proponents of batoning. If it can damage your knife it can cause injury. Also a fact. Therefore it is absolutely reasonable to say that batoning is NOT a valid technique for the bush. Moreover, I would like to see someone do that with their core temperature lowered and shivering... Edit: or maybe I would not, unless I had a first aid kit handy.

That said. All throughout this discussion I have recognized your (natural law) right to do as you please. Not in pleasant terms, I must admit. My apologies for that.


ArfinGreebly,

Guys, are we having another one of those "one true way" arguments?

No, this is one of those "one wrong way" arguments. I do recognize that there are various sound alternatives out there. Batoning not being one of them.


SlamFire1,

Well before the internet, as a Boy Scout I was taught how to make kindling for a fire by whittling with a pocket knife. The next step was to break dead branches with your hands and pile them around the kindling and put a match in the middle.

That is what they taught me, as well.

Well then the one wrong way is one way to do it. Finely common ground :)

I would like to see someone do that with their core temperature lowered and shivering...
I dont want to be flip with you,but... I dont think anyone here is saying that you have to baton wood in order to make fire. It seems your going into this thinking that I am saying the only way to survive in the outdoors is to baton. BATON OR DIE , MAN, Little karate kid II reference.

Back to the Busse I have never seen a busse folder I would imagine they carried a hefty price tag. Busse obviously cost more than Cold Steel, but by cold steel ad's I would think they would carry a similar warranty. Just my observation. Also I am sure their are thousands of happy CS knife owners out there. I know they dont crack at the sight of hard use. They have a good rep amongest cold steel owners.

http://www.c1k.com/images/cld/36CVz.jpg

The cold steel knife I was most intersted in. Cold Steel master hunter Made In the USA. Discontinued but they float around on ebay from time to time. I'm pretty sure their production is now all over seas.

It seems telling that Cold Steel, with their very liberal warranty policy, would seemingly have enough warranty claims from this type of use that they would need to make an official press release and warranty disclaimer.
That alone is a pretty good indication of the effect that batoning has on a knife, isn't it?

I can't believe that people are getting worked-up over splitting wood.

I can't believe that people are getting worked-up over splitting wood.

Well, actually, it's more about perceived tool abuse.

I have a really nice wood chisel. Or at least it was a nice chisel.

I keep it around as a reminder that, while you can use a wood chisel to remove old flooring, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I believe JV can appreciate that sentiment.

:D

I can't believe that people are getting worked-up over splitting wood.

Ah the wonders of internet debate.

I have a really nice wood chisel. Or at least it was a nice chisel.


good point. In the spirit of that statement I can think back to few tools that were nice until they bacame a hammer, pry bar or something. Fortunatly a few them were craftsmen.

I have absolute faith that my ESEE-6 will not break from batonning. Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker. Weight matters. These are often the same people that advocate a shotgun for hiking in the lower 48; couch hikers who have seldom, if ever, actually put many miles and elevation changes that measure in the thousands of feet behind them.

If the CS broke while batonning, it was simply the wrong knife, not the wrong technique. I have gone out on cold WET days here in the Pacific Northwest and attempted to start fires using only the stuff I normally carry on a hike or backpacking trip. Sometimes it just doesn't go well, sometime it does. Every time, however, I learn something. (The first thing we all learn up here is that anything laying on the ground is rotten, and useless for starting or keeping a fire) One of the tricks to staring a fire here the soggy PNW is to open up the wood to get to the center where it's dry. That means batonning.

Making fire in theory, or making it under good conditions, is NOTHING like making it under the conditions one might need a fire- when it's cold and wet.

On the day these pictures were taken it had been raining nonstop for weeks, and it was raining on me while I did the exercise. Nothing was 'set up' that is to say that I used only what I brought and only what was available around me. I parked the jeep at a random location, hiked into the woods, and began the exercise. The ESSE-6 took the severe beating in stride, and after I cleaned it up it looked almost as good as new.

http://www.topohiker.com/news/newspics/Fire1.png

http://www.topohiker.com/news/newspics/Fire2.png

http://www.topohiker.com/news/newspics/Fire3.png

http://www.topohiker.com/news/newspics/Fire5.png

http://www.topohiker.com/photo_gallery/ESEEFire3.png

Seems like it's become an acid test with forum users across the web for whether or not a knife is okay or junk.
I think that's where the disconnect is. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm seeing.

good pictures! and nice knife.

There's only one time I need a knife that works as a crow bar--that's opening big Pacific oysters. For that purpose I got a cheap Cold Steel throwing knife and it works fine.

ArfinGreebly,

Yep. I can.

Chisels that have been used to pry open paint cans, files/rasps that have been used as swords, knife screw driver, power drill hammer...sigh. I have witnessed it all, unfortunately.

Moreover, I have seen what sharp tools can do when improperly used. For example, a slashed thumb tendon that required surgery, but was still left crooked (knife as a pry bar vs. paint can lid).

About your chisel
It is relatively easy to find out what steel the chisel is, and resuscitate it, or have it resuscitated for you. If it is a really nice one it might be worth it.


lobo,

Look, I know you have good intentions and simply want to explore the issue. What I would recommend, though, is that you rummage through literature to find elegant ways of bypassing the need for batoning. If you are truly interested in bushcraft you will find it worth your while. I have.

SuperNaut sez:

I can't believe that people are getting worked-up over splitting wood.

How do you know any of us are "worked-up"? Apparently anything not completely lukewarm is a "hot debate" in your opinion?

Mainsail,

Nice. There will be a response - with images :D

Bushcraft is for Euro's, I play Rambo.

I am ashamed to admit to this, but I had a "Rambo knife"... with compass, wire saw... everything.

It broke the first time I took it out, and I did not even baton.

Bushcraft is for Euro's, I play Rambo.You could have said this and ended the argument several pages ago...

:).

How do you know any of us are "worked-up"?

I read the thread.

Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker. Weight matters. These are often the same people that advocate a shotgun for hiking in the lower 48; couch hikers who have seldom, if ever, actually put many miles and elevation changes that measure in the thousands of feet behind them. ~ Mainsail

Now that's funny. You must know everyone who posts on the forum. There are a lot of folks here who have a different opinion on the topic from yours and that does not necessarily make them wrong. My Gerber folding saw weighs 8.4 OZ, when I can't carry that, I will stay home.

I might be new, but that blade/edge combination looked too skinny to rely on batoning that way. I have a Golok recommended by an old SAS guy that I use to split firewood into kindling. The blade itself is fairly robust and the back of the blade is stout enough to take being struck by a wooden baton. Now I wouldn't use the same blade to gut a fish with or slice onions, but it will serve for campground tasks and for occasional social tasks on the slash but not the thrust(being blunt tipped). Using the appropriate tool for the appropriate job I suppose.

have a Golok recommended by an old SAS guy that

sounds like a sweet knife, any pics?

Bushcraft is for Euro's, I play Rambo.

Speaking of Rambo and knife, I wish I had bought a couple more of those Buck Master's back in the when they came out and had them today.. Quite a collector piece they have become.

The one I bought was for a present to a good friend.

While I am in general going to avoid batoning if at all possible, the following is the truth: Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker.

Also, those making such a claim are definitely not (US) light infantry, who already carry more than probably any previous ground-pounders in history.

Here (http://www.swampratknifeworks.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=006668) is a thread about the Swamp Rat folder.

Busse obviously cost more than Cold Steel, but by cold steel ad's I would think they would carry a similar warranty. Just my observation.

Nope. CS sells some knives (http://www.cutleryshoppe.com/finnbear.aspx) for around $20. It's just not realistic (wow, you're making me defend CS? What the hell? I don't even like them) to expect a company that sells some knives so cheaply to be able to offer a "no questions asked" replacement (http://www.scrapyardknives.com/guar.htm) if you break one (http://www.cutleryshoppe.com/pendletonminihunter.aspx), nor is it realistic to expect a $20 knife to be able to stand up to the abuse a $250 knife will. (For comparison, this (http://shop.scrapyardknives.com/product.sc?productId=58&categoryId=4) is the cheapest full-size Busse family knife currently available. It's an incredible bargain, but it's still $90, not including sheath. AFAIK, all CS fixed blades except a few throwers and bush knives do include sheaths, even if they're not great ones.)

John

JShirley,

If I remember correctly you own a "full sized" busse? I've been experimenting with edge retention lately, and was wondering what the edge angle of the secondary bevel is on a typical busse cinder block smasher. Also, would be interesting to know how thick the blade is just before the secondary bevel.

Two camps ~ Two points of view ~ and they are not coming together. I think everyone should use and carry whatever makes them happy.

the following is the truth:
Quote:
Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker.

Also, those making such a claim are definitely not (US) light infantry,

Yep, your right... Never served in that branch. My 39 years in the military have been either Engineer or MP Branch. Are you saying your MOS gave you a degree in Master Woodcraft?

I've spent the biggest part of my life as a hunter, camper, and outdoorsman. I went through the whole big knife thing, later dropped that for a small belt axe and more of a utility knife. Still later, changing out the axe for a folding saw that stays in my pack. I doubt my saw and knife weigh as much as one of the mega-choppers.

I guess pointing fingers and making disparaging comments about those who have a different view is the order of the day. High Road My A$$.

Maybe the experts on the forum can let us know when their show(s) debut on the Discovery Channel so the rest of us old fools can learn something.

I had never even heard the term "batoning" before.... Whack on something with a stick and that stick is a "mallet"... A baton is a thing Majorettes twirl... :D

The guy pounding on the back of the knife to drive it through a log should not be surprised at breakage. It was a relatively thin knife, not designed for chopping, much less beating with a chunk of wood. Chopping brush, chopping off little branches for firewood is one thing, pounding and prying is something else.

And belt axes don't have to be large or heavy. ;) A small one can be carried with ease.

http://www.redaviscompany.com/0286.html

http://prodigalthought.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/wrong.jpg

I guess pointing fingers and making disparaging comments about those who have a different view is the order of the day.

There was nothing ‘disparaging’ in my post other than what your insecurities read into it. Like you, I have many hobbies and a background of various experiences. I do a lot of hiking and backpacking, and thanks to SERE school, I try to always have a blade of some sort on me.

I was addressing some of the comments about how using a knife this way is wrong, and that there are better tools for the job. Well duh. The problem is that for some activities, like hiking, backpacking, soldiering, climbing, etc, weight matters. You can’t just keep adding more stuff. That’s my beef, the useless advice to just add more gear. If you’re car camping, great, bring a chainsaw.

For the hiker, something of which I’m familiar, we try to carry items with multiple uses, and shun items with only one use (more so when that one use is a remote contingency). So for hikers and backpackers, we’re generally NOT going to carry a knife, saw, and an axe. I have in the past carried a very small folding knife with a hatchet; that makes a good combination. Nevertheless, a knife is (to me) an essential item, a saw is great but it cannot chop or slice, and an axe of any size a lot of dead weight.

Additionally, when hiking there are very few times when an axe or a saw are even needed. I’m not going to build a fire while out on a day hike. A saw would be helpful in a contingency situation, but it can only do one thing, saw. A knife can cut, split, chop, and using the batonning technique, it can chop material much larger than it could by itself. When backpacking, I might build a fire, although it is illegal to do so above 3500’ elevation; there you’re limited to stoves only. Around here, 3500’ ain’t squat, so most of the time a fire is for emergency use only. So for what would I use an axe or a saw?

For the activities you mention, “hunter, camper, and outdoorsman”, a saw might be just the ticket. Nobody is saying you’re wrong, I was only mentioning that the admonition that it’s foolish to use a knife this way, or that it’s foolish to go into the woods without a knife, saw, and axe, is bad advice for hikers or backpackers. It wasn’t a criticism; it was just a friendly observation. Don’t try so hard to be a victim; the county has more than enough of them already.

Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker. Weight matters. These are often the same people that advocate a shotgun for hiking in the lower 48; couch hikers who have seldom, if ever, actually put many miles and elevation changes that measure in the thousands of feet behind them.

I'm not reading into anything. Your the one who said that those who have a different point of view are foolish. Even go on to call them "couch hikers'.

Some of what you say has validity. You have your opinions based on experience, but so have others.

Don’t try so hard to be a victim; the county has more than enough of them already.

Since you seem to know me so well, I am curious as to what you feel I am trying to be a victim of?

You're reading:

Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker. :fire:

But it was more like:

Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker. :neener:

Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker. ;)

Anyone making the claim that going into the woods without a saw, axe, etc is is foolish is not a hiker. :evil:

Don't be such a drama queen.

Wow.

"Dear Diary, today I discovered the 9,341st obscure topic of discussion about which folks can get so worked up that they'll insult each other ... "