How much MOA is lost to a "Heavy Duplex" reticle??


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AKElroy
December 26, 2011, 11:15 AM
I have a Savage Weather Warrior .308, Accustock / Accutrigger, and I stuggle to get it to shoot MOA. I have a Leupold Vari-X III, 4.5x14X40 AO with a Heavy Duplex reticle attached with a DNZ "deadnutz" one- piece mount.

With the Accustock, I was expecting far better results. Could it simply be the Heavy Duplex reticle? It does cover a good bit of target real estate. Thoughts?

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Haxby
December 26, 2011, 11:29 AM
Don't think it's the reticle. I've shot sub 1" groups with a 1-4X20 Leupold shotgun scope on a 308. That's about like using your scope set at 4.5X.

jerkface11
December 26, 2011, 11:46 AM
What range are you shooting? What ammo? What kind of rest do you use? What size are the groups?

matrem
December 26, 2011, 12:01 PM
You can make some black targets with a white square ( or even a cross ) in the center.
Make the white just slightly larger than your crosshair intersection at the chosen distance.
Balance the white evenly outside the crosshair, and you'll know for sure.

rcmodel
December 26, 2011, 12:08 PM
Or set a 1" target dot right in the corner of the intersecting cross-hairs.

No reason a tall a thick reticule can't shoot tight groups.
Just don't cover the aiming point with it.

Or a target like this may help you.
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/300%20yard%20sight-in%20Target.pdf

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/LR%20Scope%20Target%20B.pdf

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/Scope%20Target%20Med%20D.pdf

rc

jhnrckr
December 26, 2011, 12:39 PM
I just put a vortex crossfire on my ar-10 and it has a .7 moa dot rather than crosshairs. I was a little hesitant before I bought it thinking I would cover up the bullseye but really you can line it up very easily and shoot sub MOA.

wingman
December 26, 2011, 01:13 PM
My guess it's the ammo not a scope problem, if you don't reload 1moa would
be about normal for that rifle.

BrocLuno
December 26, 2011, 01:29 PM
Have you tried Federal Premium ammo?

Chuck R.
December 26, 2011, 03:17 PM
Try using a larger target!

One of the heaviest reticles I have is a Swarovski Professional series in 1.25-4X, itís a very heavy duplex within a heavy circle. Itís a fantastic reticle for dangerous game, low light, or moving targets, lousy for punching paper.

The rifle is a REM MOD 7 Mannlicher in .350Mag the combination is a sub-moa rifle when I use a big enough bull to see the cross hairs AND enough of the target to insure POA is consistent.

Chuck

Walkalong
December 26, 2011, 03:45 PM
If you need the heavy reticule, you don't need 1 MOA precision, because you are hunting in thick brush at close ranges.

Sounds like the wrong reticule for the job.

For target shooting, I like a fine cross hair (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/385640/vortex-viper-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-65-20x-50mm-side-focus-fine-plex-reticle-matte) or a fine cross hair with a 1/8 MOA dot (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/114296/weaver-t-series-rifle-scope-36x-40mm-adjustable-objective-1-8-moa-dot-reticle-matte). The 1/4 MOA dot (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/889645/nikon-buckmasters-rifle-scope-6-18x-40mm-side-focus-fine-crosshair-with-dot-reticle-matte) is OK, but not optimum. I have one on a .22 Hornet.

Leupold makes one with a fine duplex reticule.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/354628/leupold-vx-3-rifle-scope-45-14x-40mm-adjustable-objective-fine-duplex-reticle-matte

AKElroy
December 26, 2011, 04:41 PM
I bought the rifle for hunting in fairly thick brush, with 200 yards being my longest typical shot. The longest shot I have taken was at 280 yards, and took a doe cleanly. It is fine for hunting, but I really have heartburn when a rifle lauded for accuracy shoots 1.5 MOA. I have tried federal premium, as well as 5 other premium loads. The good news is that it shoots remmy core lokt best, averaging a little over MOA. It just ticks me off when I have a model 70 push feed made in 1965, 270, 22" barrel, leupold VX1, and it one-holes core loct 150's. It's not even full floated.

wingman
December 26, 2011, 05:37 PM
Fire lapping in some case help a "rough" barrel, I suspect over time the Savage will improve but for me I don't think accuracy without reloading, and I suspect your Savage would shoot .500 with reloads.

Txhillbilly
December 26, 2011, 08:37 PM
It's not the scope.It's the shooter and the ammo your choosing to shoot more likely.
Most newer manufactered rifles will shoot close to moa or better,if you are shooting a PREMIUM ammo,not the cheap stuff.They will usually do a lot better with Handloads.

dubbleA
December 26, 2011, 09:25 PM
It's not the scope.It's the shooter and the ammo your choosing to shoot more likely.
Most newer manufactered rifles will shoot close to moa or better,if you are shooting a PREMIUM ammo,not the cheap stuff.They will usually do a lot better with Handloads.


I would agree with this up to the point about "PREMIUM" ammo. From personal experinces and shooters that I know, the cheapest ammo can shoot very very well. The blue box Federal and silver box Super X Winchester stuff can shoot amazingly good. This is not to say it always will but the possibilty is there. It really comes down to your particular barrel harmonics, it either likes it or it does not. If someone is going to shoot strictly factory ammo, I will always suggest to try the cheap stuff first, sometimes it will suprise you.

As far as your scope goes, the reticle substension or the amount your crosshairs cover at any particular distance need to remain small enough to dissect a target.
A 2" high contrasting square bullseye for example might work well with a 14X at 100yards. I have a Leupold 24X o a varmint gun that I sent in for a heavy duplex years ago, while it doesnt offer benchrest accuracy of the fine crosshair reticle I can still print tiny groups if I can dissect a slightly bigger bull. I have several FFP scopes where the reticle enlarges with increasing power and the substensions can get large which does cause precission shot placement at extended ranges to suffer on small targets.

jerkface11
December 26, 2011, 09:43 PM
Don't get bent out of shape that an out of the box rifle doesn't shoot sub MOA with factory ammo.

Flintknapper
December 26, 2011, 09:57 PM
You have PM

Walkalong
December 26, 2011, 10:07 PM
I bought the rifle for hunting in fairly thick brush, with 200 yards being my longest typical shot. The longest shot I have taken was at 280 yards, and took a doe cleanly.
I have never understood folks putting 4.5X14 OA scopes on a hunting gun unless they are hunting bean fields etc, but to each their own of course. I love high power scopes for range work or target shooting, but like low power variables for hunting. But of course around here, I am looking at around 150 yards max, and more likely much closer. I have a VariX III 2.5X8 on my .308, a Vortex 2X7 on my .35 Remington. I do have the old standard 3X9 (Bushnell 4200) on my .30-30, cause I got a great deal on it.

It is fine for hunting, but I really have heartburn when a rifle lauded for accuracy shoots 1.5 MOA Understandable. Savage rifles have a rep for being very accurate. Perhaps a different bullet will work. Maybe it just doesn't like the one you are using.

sixgunner455
December 26, 2011, 10:14 PM
jerkface - this I agree with. Careful handloads and adjusting up and down .5 grains can result in surprising things, like a 5/8" 3 shot group out of a Savage 11 in one of the standard synthetic stocks, wearing a Nikon Prostaff 3-9x40. 2 times, so far, but still pretty cool.

AKElroy
December 26, 2011, 10:27 PM
I have never understood folks putting 4.5X14 OA scopes on a hunting gun unless they are hunting bean fields etc, but to each their own of course

I have lousy eyes, so your statement needs a little modification for older guys like me that like to see what we are shooting. I am just as likely to see a pigs at dusk (or after dark with a spotlight) at 30 yards or from the truck at 250+. The leupold is good for both.

AKElroy
December 26, 2011, 10:33 PM
It's not the scope.It's the shooter and the ammo your choosing to shoot more likely.

I'm no benchrest shooter for sure, but I have a couple of 1/2 MOA rifles that I can 1-hole at 100 yards from a good rest with regularity. None of them has as good a trigger as this savage.

jpwilly
December 26, 2011, 11:32 PM
AKElroy, You may have tried this but I'd recommend do not put the crosshairs over the target but instead use the crosshairs so that they are on the targets left edge and bottom edge for each shot when shooting for group. Doesn't matter if the shots don't hit the bull it's really all about having a consistant sight picture for each shot.

Hizzie
December 27, 2011, 12:53 AM
Loose nut behind the trigger maybe?

The Leupold FXII Ultralight 2.5x20 Heavy Duplex (http://www.chuckhawks.com/leupold_ultralight_2-5x20.htm) I'm about to order subtends nearly 3" at 100yds. Would stand to reason that Leupold's "Heavy Duplex" reticle is consistent regardless of the model. Just over MOA sounds pretty darn good all considered. Maybe the rifle is capable of better. Maybe you haven't found the perfect load for that rifle yet. Even 2MOA @ 300yds is just 6". That will kill a pig.

AKElroy
December 27, 2011, 10:19 AM
Loose nut behind the trigger maybe?

Nope--I removed the stock just to confirm everything was torqued to spec. I am temped to order a mount for a 50mm bushell elite sitting on a rarely used 10/22 target build just to see what this thing is capable of.

TwoWheelFiend
December 27, 2011, 10:26 AM
perhaps it is you?

Walkalong
December 27, 2011, 11:41 AM
I have lousy eyes, so your statement needs a little modification for older guys like me that like to see what we are shooting
My eyes aren't what they used to be either, but I have no need to amend my statement, because it is just my opinion. I do understand your need and point.

My next opinion is that you have to give up something on one end or the other with that setup. The ability to aim fine at long distance, or the usefulness of the heavy reticule up close in brush.

Since you are obviously good enough to shoot well with a good rifle, either the crosshairs are hurting your grouping by lacking the ability to aim finely, or, as I mentioned, the rifle doesn't like that bullet, or perhaps the rifle just won't shoot as well as you had hoped. I would try other bullets before I gave up on it. I might even try a different scope long enough to prove whether it can shoot well.

Hizzie
December 27, 2011, 11:57 AM
Nope--I removed the stock just to confirm everything was torqued to spec. I am temped to order a mount for a 50mm bushell elite sitting on a rarely used 10/22 target build just to see what this thing is capable of.
You either expertly deflected my poke at you OR it went completely over your head. The "nut behind the trigger" is the shooter.

How much are mounts? Add in the price of ammo and whatever you consider your time worth. Small price to pay for an enjoyable day at the range so why not.

sixgunner455
December 28, 2011, 02:06 AM
Interesting that you have a heavy (close range) reticule in a 4.5-14 (longer range) scope.

Just sayin'. You'd probably have better luck getting tiny groups with a reticule designed for that, if you can see it. If not, I'd do as others have suggested and aim slightly differently.

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