Loading 45ACP for a GLOCK??


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zhd
December 26, 2011, 10:30 PM
I recently got a GLOCK 21 Gen 4...it would not cycle my handloads. I have loaded them very light for a 1911 and they worked flawlesly in the 1911 but will not cycle in the Glock. Here is my load breakdown: Powder - Win 231, Primer - CCI 300, Bullet - Rainier 185 gr. I loaded this with 5.1 grains of powder. Where do I need to be at on my grains of powder for the Glock to cycle? What are factory loads set at? I am new to reloading and have only been at it for about 2 months so any tips on correcting this would be helpful thanks guys.

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Ridgerunner665
December 26, 2011, 10:35 PM
5.2 might do it...5.3 should get it if not.

Deavis
December 26, 2011, 10:37 PM
You need to be wherever your Glock cycles as long as it is under the maximum charge according to the reloading manual you are using. What does your reloading manual suggest for a 185gr bullets?

Hodgdon shows the jacketd SWC as 5.0 to 5.9 grains. I believe you typically use lead data for plated, which is a tad different. Try bumping it up 0.3gr and seeing if that cycles it. If you want to run 5.1gr, you may need a lighter recoil spring and make sure your gun is properly cleaned/lubricated.

zhd
December 26, 2011, 10:43 PM
Thanks I will try to bump it up slowly. I have also thought about the lighter spring but I want to find the right number that cycles on the factory spring first. Thanks.

PlusP
December 26, 2011, 10:51 PM
is it a 185g swc ??? my 21 has problems feeding them and the 1911 will feed them fine .... I'd try 5.5g of 231 with a 185g rn plated bullet for a 21 ... I think you will find a g21 takes more effort to rack the slide than a 1911 does ...

Drail
December 26, 2011, 10:54 PM
For 185 gr. loads I would go with a lighter spring instead of bumping up the charge. Glocks are kind of touchy about high pressure loads.

ljnowell
December 26, 2011, 11:04 PM
Glocks are kind of touchy about high pressure loads.

Um, not really. My glock can handle any +p load. My g21 will take some downright hot loads too, and do it without bulging brass. All with a factory barrel.

My personal favorite is a Missouri Bullet 230gr softball over 5.5gr of AA#2. Oh my, lead and a load right at the top of the load data. It loves it.

evan price
December 27, 2011, 05:37 AM
Glock recoil springs are stout to deal with full-power ammo; using a light bullet and a lower charge will cause your problem. As said, either a lighter recoil spring or a different load will solve the problem.

MrCountyCop
December 27, 2011, 07:34 AM
The sheet I have says 5.5 - 7.7 g of W231 for the 185g Rainier JHP bullet. I use 5.3g of bullseye in a Gen 3 Glock 21 and Colt 1911, so I cant tell you how they shoot or how high you can safely go with W231.

bds
December 27, 2011, 09:18 AM
I recently got a GLOCK 21 Gen 4...it would not cycle my handloads ... Win 231 ... Rainier 185 gr. I loaded this with 5.1 grains of powder. Where do I need to be at on my grains of powder for the Glock to cycle?
The sheet I have says 5.5 - 7.7 g of W231 for the 185g Rainier JHP bullet.
MrCountyCop, your "sheet" says 7.7 gr of W231 for 185 gr "Rainier JHP" bullet? That's way above any published jacketed load data I have seen. And all this time I thought Rainier made "plated" bullets ... :rolleyes:


This is Hodgdon load data (http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp) for "jacketed" bullet.
185 GR. HDY JSWC Winchester 231 .451" OAL1.135" Start 5.0 gr (762 fps) 12,000 CUP - Max 5.9 gr (906 fps) 15,800 CUP

Lyman #49 lists 6.1 gr of W231 as max powder charge for both 185 gr jacketed Remington SWC and Hornady JHP bullets.

Rainier Ballistics (http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm) recommends we use lead load data for their "plated" bullets but suggests we work with min/max jacketed load data range. For me, I have found published start charge of jacketed load data to be good starting charges for Rainier plated bullets.
Our bullets are ... softer than traditionally jacketed bullets; hence the recommendation to use lead bullet load data. If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend a starting powder charge directly between the listed minimum and maximum load.


zhd, what you experienced is why us reloaders conduct a full powder charge work up for new bullet/powder. Beginning with the published start charge, I typically load 10 rounds of each powder charge in increments of .1-.2 gr. When I range test the loads, I look for reliable slide cycling/spent case extraction (partial slide cycling will often lead to stove piped spent case) and consistency trend in shot group accuracy. Since your 5.1 gr charge of W231 did not reliably cycle the slide, I would test increment charges (.1-.2 gr) until you have reliable slide cycling and spent case extraction.

Newer Glocks have stiffer recoil springs and may require higher load data powder charges to reliably cycle the slide, especially with lighter bullets (185 gr compared to 230 gr).

Master Blaster
December 27, 2011, 09:23 AM
My recipie for 185 is 6.0 grains of W231 max is 6.1 gr according to lyman 49, and a remington JSWC match 185, cycles my Glock G30 and feeds fine.

zhd
December 27, 2011, 04:46 PM
Great info here, thanks for taking the time to break it down for me, this was very helpful.

MrCountyCop
December 31, 2011, 08:45 AM
The "Sheet" is the data sheet from midway that has been floating around the forum for a few years, but as I said I dont use W231. And it was for Rainier 185g FP not JHP, so my fault there.

bds
December 31, 2011, 09:24 AM
MrCountyCop, I understand but there is specific THR forum rule for posting heavier than currently published load data - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=27444



REQUIRED READ for those posting Extra HEAVY LOAD Information

THIS IS IMPORTANT- - - - -

In the spirit of advancing knowledge and encouraging the open sharing of information amongst The High Road forum members, the near-unrestricted posting of handloading information and specific loads is allowed.

HOWEVER---
We owe it to one another to include proper cautions whenever we post ANY load in excess of published information. To fail in this duty may well endanger our forum associates - - either their firearms or their health.

In most of the other forums, if someone posts information in error, or in rash disregard of courtesy or propriety, little or no lasting harm is done. When dealing with high-powered firearms and the care and feeding thereof, though, someone could easily get hurt.

I am well aware that many loads have been acceptable in the past, and have been published in older loading manuals and magazine articles. I still happily use certain of these loads in MY own firearms, and do not feel I am at risk. Do as you wish with YOUR firearms and when you are placing only YOURSELF at risk.

If you wish to share such OLD loading data, please specifically quote the exact source, with the note that it is now considered over max. With NEW data you have worked up and which is beyond currently published maximums, PLEASE heed this admonition:

At the beginning of your message, insert in BOLD type a no-uncertain-terms cautionary note, for example:

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

You are not constrained to use this exact language, but please feel free to cut and past it into your message.

zhd
December 31, 2011, 11:42 AM
I was told that written from the Speer #14 Manual that for W231/Rainier 185 FNP/CCI #300 LP to load from 6.6 gn up to 7.4 gn of powder. I loaded 20 rounds each of 6.8/7.0/7.4, all cycled fine and the recoil was not a major issue. I do feel the loads were a little hot for punching paper. I have 20 rounds of 5.9 loaded now that I am about to go out and try and will post my update this afternoon. I am hoping these cycle with no issue.

zhd
December 31, 2011, 11:55 AM
Ok, just went outside and tried the 5.9 gn loads, they did not cycle properly. 3 of the rounds cycled the other stovepiped. I will attempt to load a 6.2 gn and go from there. It looks like 6.4 is going to be the starting point I am affriad of.

bds
December 31, 2011, 12:40 PM
Hence my post.
Newer Glocks have stiffer recoil springs and may require higher load data powder charges to reliably cycle the slide, especially with lighter bullets (185 gr compared to 230 gr).

Since your 5.1 gr charge of W231 did not reliably cycle the slide, I would test increment charges (.1-.2 gr) until you have reliable slide cycling and spent case extraction.
Even for my Gen3 Glocks, especially sub-compacts with captured dual recoil springs, I need to use high-near max load data powder charge to reliably cycle the slide when using lighter 9mm (115 gr) and 40S&W (135/155 gr) bullets. I believe Glock increased the recoil spring rate for all of Gen4 models, which means now they will require even higher powder charge to reliably cycle the slide.

Keep us posted. Your range test will help other Gen4 Glock 21 owners. :D

dirtengineer
December 31, 2011, 03:37 PM
That Midway data isn't above max unless it is erroneous. The pressure listed is 20,500 for 7.7 grains, 185 grain FP rainier out of a universal receiver with 5" barrel. Seems to me that bullet specific data is better (even if it is old) than trying to use data out of a new book for a different bullet.

The same data lists 5.5 grains as a starting load, so work up like any good reloader should.

dbarnhart
December 31, 2011, 07:47 PM
I know this is like comparing apples to oranges but my son shoots the following load through his Glocks (several models) with no problem:

230gr FMJRN
5.6gr Unique

bds
December 31, 2011, 08:11 PM
At least he's not exceeding current published load data (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=3&cartridge=35). ;)
45 Auto 230 gr Speer TJM RN OAL 1.26" Unique Max 6.5 gr 832 fps
45 Auto 230 gr Speer GDHP OAL 1.20" Unique Max 6.0 gr 806 fps

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2011, 09:45 PM
I'm not sure it will be much help here, but the load I practice with in my G36 is 7 grains of Power Pistol under a 230 grain XTP (or FMJ)...the "business load" is 6.1 grains of Unique under a 230 grain XTP.

Neither of those loads are anywhere near "weak" and they function fine...I loaded a few a while back with 6 grains of Power Pistol under 230 grain FMJ's and they also functioned fine, but my G36 did sling brass in all directions with that load...with the warmer loads it pile them up pretty neatly.

I think Glocks just like warmer loads (just don't go overboard)

PlusP
January 1, 2012, 08:55 AM
Did you say these were 185 swc's ???? if so that may be the problem as I said earlier my 21 won't feed SWC's....

bds
January 1, 2012, 10:28 AM
Yes, my G21/G30 would not feed SWC bullets either.

Rainier Ballistics (http://www.rainierballistics.com/mainframe.htm) don't make SWC plated bullets. OP is using 185 gr Flat Nose.

Mention of SWC came from Hodgdon and Lyman load data that used SWC bullets.

ljnowell
January 1, 2012, 12:07 PM
Thats weird, I have heard lots of people say it, but my g21 will feed swc's just like LRN. My XD45, thats a whole 'nother story. You can absolutely forget about that.

bds
January 1, 2012, 12:35 PM
My G21/G30 were early Gen3 models. Perhaps they reshaped the ramp/chamber on newer Gen3/Gen4 models?

dirtengineer
January 1, 2012, 04:00 PM
I have shot hundreds of Rainier 200 grain SWC out of my G21. It is a gen 3, so it doesn't have the new and "improved" dual spring.

The Rainier Load Data the MidwayUSA used to publish (I have a PDF from 2006) shows a minimum load of 5.5 grains W231 and a max load of 7.7 grains for a 185 grain FP .45 ACP in a 5" universal receiver. 20,500 PSI. OAL of 1.275. I was told recently on this forum that this is OLD data, so use at your own risk.

dirtengineer
January 1, 2012, 04:10 PM
Here is another OLD source of load data for Rainier Bullets:

http://www.rainierballistics.com/old_pages/accuratearms3.htm

bds
January 1, 2012, 04:45 PM
The Rainier Load Data the MidwayUSA used to publish (I have a PDF from 2006) shows a minimum load of 5.5 grains W231 and a max load of 7.7 grains for a 185 grain FP .45 ACP in a 5" universal receiver. 20,500 PSI. OAL of 1.275. I was told recently on this forum that this is OLD data, so use at your own risk.
Here's the screen capture of that MidwayUSA/Rainier load data (http://web.archive.org/web/20050502124831/http://www.rainierballistics.com/loaddataMW.htm). It does show 7.7 gr as max charge for W231 (7.8 gr for HP-38) but carries the following warning/disclaimer: "MidwayUSA, and Battenfeld Technologies, Inc., neither assumes nor authorizes any person or entity to assume for it any liability in connection with the use of this manual and/or data ... Please completely read the Midway Load Map series before using this loading data". I would go with current published load data or contact the powder manufacturer before feeling lucky and exceeding currently available max load data.
WARNING AND DISCLAIMER:
MidwayUSA, and Battenfeld Technologies, Inc., specifically disclaims any warranties, expressed or implied, of any kind, nature or description (including but not limited to any warranty of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose) with respect to this information and/or any of the information contained in the following (including but not limited to safety or suitability or the results obtained). Users of this information, whether original purchasers or otherwise, assume all risk, responsibility and liability of every kind, nature or description for any and all injuries (including death), losses, or damages to persons or property (including consequential damages), arising from the use of this information, whether or not occasioned by MidwayUSA's or Battenfeld Technologies, Inc.'s, negligence or based on strict product liability or principles of indemnity or contribution. MidwayUSA, and Battenfeld Technologies, Inc., neither assumes nor authorizes any person or entity to assume for it any liability in connection with the use of this manual and/or data contained herein. Please completely read the Midway Load Map series before using this loading data. All these loads were devloped by Midway USA. Rainier assumes no liability on the use of these loads.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155877&stc=1&d=1325453977


This is 2004 Alliant load data and the same MidwayUSA/Rainier load data shows higher max charges for plated Rainier bullets than jacketed load data for Bullseye/Unique and lead load data for Blue Dot:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155878&stc=1&d=1325453977

Current Alliant load data (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=185&shellid=35&bulletid=59):
185 gr Speer GDHP Bullseye 1.20" OAL Max 6.4 gr (986 fps)
185 gr Speer GDHP Unique 1.20" OAL Max 8.2 gr (1,015 fps)
185 gr Speer GDHP Blue Dot - Not listed

Lyman #49 on page 381 lists the following:
185 gr Jacketed Remington SWC at 1.135" OAL:
Bullseye: Start 3.5 gr (678 fps) 8,000 CUP - Max 5.6 gr (975 fps) 16,600 CUP
Unique: Start 4.7 gr (661 fps) 7,700 CUP - Max 7.5 gr (1055 fps) 18,000 CUP
Blue Dot: Start 7.3 gr (666 fps) 8,000 CUP - Max 10.2 gr (1015 fps) 17,800 CUP

185 Hornady Jacketed HP/XTP at 1.175" OAL:
Bullseye: Start 3.5 gr (610 fps) 7,300 CUP - Max 6.0 gr (976 fps) 18,000 CUP
Unique: Start 4.8 gr (630 fps) 7,800 CUP - Max 7.8 gr (985 fps) 17,800 CUP
Blue Dot: Not listed

I would suggest you reference any old load data you want to use with current published load data. If you have any concern or want clarification (especially if there is any discrepancies like mentioned on this thread), I recommend you contact/email the powder manufacturer.

zhd
January 2, 2012, 10:28 AM
Update on my range test with the Glock 21 Gen 4...I think the perfect load for this particular gun right now is 6.4 gn powder charge. I ran 200 rounds through it yesterday with perfect cycling of all 200 rounds. Again I am using Rainier 185 gn flat nose/plated bullets, CCI #300 large pistol primers, and Winchester 231 ball powder. This seems to be the best recipe for my new G21. Maybe I could back off to 6.2gn once the gun gets broken-in but the difference in powder IMO will be unnoticeable. I plan next on trying out a 200 gn flat nose plated bullet. I think I will be able to bring my powder charge down to around 5.9 gn with the heavier bullet. What do you guys think? Anybody know any data on whether a 185 gn or 200 gn flat nose? Is one more accurate than the other or is this just a wash and personal preference? Will continue tests with this new pistol and when I feel I have found the perfect load I will post another update. Also I am running my OAL at around 1.265 with a variance of around .002 - .004 with a Lee Pro 1000. I plan on moving up to a Dillon 650 in 2012 as it will hold much tighter tolerances. The Lee Pro 1000 took some time to get it right and I had to modify a few peices on it but it is getting the job done for now.

bds
January 2, 2012, 11:15 AM
Great! I love happy endings. :D

I plan next on trying out a 200 gn flat nose plated bullet. I think I will be able to bring my powder charge down to around 5.9 gn with the heavier bullet. What do you guys think? Anybody know any data on whether a 185 gn or 200 gn flat nose? Is one more accurate than the other
For my Gen3 G21/G30, I had to push the lighter 185 gr bullets near max to cycle reliably. Although I prefer 185 gr Remington Golden Saber JHP bullets for SD/HD practice reloads, 200/230 gr bullets have been very accurate for me.

For the 200 gr bullet and W231/HP-38 with stiffer recoil spring of Gen4 G21, I would suggest you conduct your work up from 5.0 gr. You will probably see more reliable slide cycling and accuracy around 5.5 gr (which was my favorite load for 200 gr Rainier with Gen3 Glocks). Due to stiffer recoil spring of Gen4 G21, you may end up slightly higher.

Here's Hodgdon load data:
200 gr Lead SWC W231/HP-38 OAL 1.225" Start 4.4 gr (771 fps) 11,000 CUP - Max 5.6 gr (914 fps) 16,900 CUP
200 gr Speer JHP W231/HP-38 OAL 1.155" Start 5.2 gr (794 fps) 12,700 CUP - Max 5.9 gr (906 fps) 16,700 CUP


Also I am running my OAL at around 1.265 with a variance of around .002 - .004 with a Lee Pro 1000. I plan on moving up to a Dillon 650 in 2012 as it will hold much tighter tolerances.
Slight OAL variations from progressive press is anticipated as there is some shell plate tilt variation round-to-round, especially with variation in resized case length from mixed head stamp range brass. Even for my match loads that are resized separately and hand primed, I will see some .001"-.003" OAL variation but still produce very acceptable accurate shot groups. Besides, I am not willing to sort cases by head stamp and length as I have done that without seeing any significant increase in accuracy.

Any comments from Dillon 650 owners? What's your finished OAL variations?

zhd
January 2, 2012, 01:38 PM
Let me be clear about the variance I am getting out of my Lee Pro 1000, I mentioned in post #29 i was getting .002 - .004, that is both ways (up/down) off of my target of 1.265 so I guess it could be as far as a .006 - .008 For what I am using it for now it works fine, I do however see where parts are going to wear out. And for the volume I go through I think the Dillon will be a good investment. Would love to hear from Dillon owners as well as to the tolerences held on .45 ACP.

bds - what kind of set up do you run?

bds
January 2, 2012, 03:22 PM
zhd, I was taught to reload by a Bullseye match shooter on both Dillon 550B and Lee Pro 1000. He was a stickler about accuracy and reloading consistency (I got my resizing on single stage and hand priming of match cases from him). Believe me, I am a fan of Dillon products (I dream of 1050 someday). :D

OK, I resized more of 45ACP cases with small primer pockets I had cleaned for Tulsa SP primer testing (they were resized on C-H 205 single stage press using Lee carbide depriming/resizing die with the shell holder almost kissing the bottom of the carbide sizer ring). I got the following measurements:

Blazer: .990", .991", .992", .993", .994"
Federal: .990", .991", .992", .993"
Fiocchi: .997", .998"


I decided to load 20 cases of .992" Blazer cases and 20 cases of mixed Blazer/Federal with Berry's 185 gr HBRN at 1.25" OAL (BTW, I use 5.6 gr of W231/HP-38 for this bullet and the load reliably cycles the slides of M&P45/Sig 1911/PT145). 185 gr HBRN measured around .4515" in diameter (As a QC check, same caliper measured 185 gr Golden Saber JHP bullet diameters exactly at .451").

Since all the cases were resized and hand primed already, station #1 on Pro 1000 was empty.

Blazer .992" cases - OALs varied by .001"-.002" TOTAL with about 60% at 1.25".
Mixed Blazer/Federal cases - OALs varied by .002"-.004" TOTAL with about 50% at 1.25"

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=155962&stc=1&d=1325535755

ljnowell
January 2, 2012, 10:15 PM
Those look ridiculously short BDS, I think I can see inside the case on the one on the far right!

bds
January 2, 2012, 11:31 PM
Sorry, the lighting and reflection with my LG smartphone camera and optical/reflection/whiteout/shadow effects all did not help (Walkalong keeps telling me my taper crimp looks like they are flaring out ... it's the reflection that makes the case neck "curve" out :D). The taper crimp is .472" and flat at the case neck. Perhaps I could charge the batteries for the Olympus digital camera and take better pictures.

The reason for the shorter 1.25" OAL is the very short start of rifling of Sig 1911 barrel (there's almost no leade). Same bullet would feed/chamber fine at 1.26" OAL in M&P45 and PT145. 1.26" would work for Sig 1911, but I wanted to make sure the bullet nose did not hit the rifling. Some shooters with short leade/start of rifling in their match barrels have similar experience and load at shorter 1.25". If your barrel has longer leade/start of rifling, 1.26" OAL would work fine.

OK, I did a comparison shot with two factory rounds (I darkened the brightness so you can see the outline of the bullets better). Left is 230 gr PMC FMJ at 1.255" OAL, center is 185 gr Berry's HBRN at 1.25" OAL and right is 230 gr CCI TMJ at 1.27" OAL (when I was cropping the picture, I noticed the PMC round on the left is leaning, so it looks shorter, once again optical effects. :fire:).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=156022&stc=1&d=1325564824

Here's my Sig 1911 barrel - It is for the same reason why I have to load the MBC 200 gr SWC bullet to shorter 1.245" OAL when M&P45/PT145 will feed it fine at 1.265" OAL.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=153825&stc=1&d=1322762471

ljnowell
January 2, 2012, 11:40 PM
Yes, I can see that now! The short leade thing I am familiar with, its one of the reasons I sold my Lone Wolf glock 21 barrel and just kept shooting lead out of my stock barrel. I found long ago that there isnt much magic involved in shooting lead out a glock barell, at least not the 45acp glocks.

Ridgerunner665
January 2, 2012, 11:52 PM
I have a Baer 1911 with a match chamber and very short leade...I load FMJ to 1.26" and HP to 1.23".

bds
January 3, 2012, 12:14 AM
OK, did a little testing and found something.

I backed out the bullet seater knob of the combination taper crimp/bullet seater die and loaded a round at 1.26" OAL with .472" taper crimp. The round fell in the chamber freely with a "plonk" and fell out freely. Hmmmm.

I then backed out the bullet seater knob further and loaded a round at 1.275" OAL (taper crimp die body was not moved). The round fell in the chamber but got stuck. It required a push to chamber fully.

I screwed the bullet seater knob and decreased the OAL of the round to 1.27". The round did fall but did not make the "plonk" sound which probably indicated that case neck did not make contact with the chamber. Slight push chambered the round fully.

I screwed the bullet seater knob and decreased the OAL of the round to 1.265". The round did fall, but as I repeated the drop by rotating the bullet 90 degress, it would fall freely in some positions, but not the other.

I screwed the bullet seater knob and decreased the OAL of the round to 1.26". The round did fall with a "plonk" but when I repeated the drop by rotating the bullet 90 degrees, one position did not produced the "plonk" sound.

I then recalled my initial testing I did and realized not all of the 1.26" OAL rounds fell in freely but the 1.25" OAL rounds did. For this barrel/rifling, 1.26" OAL maybe the threshold. Since the round feeding from the magazine and nose bumping on the ramp would slightly decrease the OAL, use of 1.26" OAL may be OK. I may have another thing to test at the next range trip.

bds
January 3, 2012, 08:03 AM
Been pondering. The CCI 230 gr TMJ at 1.27" OAL works well in the Sig barrel. Perhaps that's due to the slightly different nose profile and the .451" sizing? Berry's bullets did average slightly larger .4515" sizing.

OK, enough of thread hijack. Back to OP.

zhd
January 3, 2012, 03:57 PM
bds - interesting test here. I have never thought to try a shorter OAL. Any idea what would be the best fit in the Glock 21 Gen 4? That is the gun I am searching for the perfect reload for now as it it is the newest gun I have. Post #35 talks about the after market Lone Wolf barrel having problems. Anybody tried out the Wilson Combat Glock barrel?

bds
January 4, 2012, 01:49 AM
zhd, I just re-read your posts and I think there are two different issues:

1. Is your finished round's OAL set to Ideal OAL?
2. Is your powder charge sufficient to reliably cycle the slide?

With any new bullet type and weight, we must first determine the Max OAL and Ideal OAL that will reliably work in our pistol/barrel/magazine BEFORE we conduct our powder work up. If not, we may be dealing with two conflicting reloading variables.

If you haven't yet, determine the Max OAL (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678) then Ideal OAL (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7717654#post7717654). Since Glock barrels have longer leade (space bullet jumps from case neck/chamber to the start of rifling), your Max/Ideal OAL may be longer than typical for the bullet type. THEN, conduct your powder work up to determine at what charge you obtain reliable cycling of the slide and consistent, accurate shot groups.

I have not used Lone Wolf barrel in 45 caliber Glocks so I can't comment. Before you change out your barrel, especially if you are using jacketed/plated bullets, I suggest you try the above recommendations first as the primary benefit of using aftermarket barrel with traditional square cut land/groove rifling would be to shoot lead bullets.

zhd
January 4, 2012, 10:03 AM
bds - I feel that my powder charge that I am running now (6.4 gn) is about where I need to be. My groupings were tighter at this charge than any of the others I tested. I would however notice about every 5 shot I would have 1 shot leak out wide right or wide left. Could be several things, the first and most obvious would be the shooter (me) just pulling off/flinching, etc. My other thought was the leade. I wonder if I could run my OAL up a bit to say 1.269-1.271 to eliminate that jump between bullet and start of rifling? My OAL is set to 1.265 now. I get anywhere from 1.261 up to 1.269 in my variance with different headstamps, etc. I do not resize my brass as of now. I do not forsee myself resizing brass in the near future as well. I may give a try to increasing my OAL to see if this helps/hurts accuracy. Any thoughts??

bds
January 4, 2012, 10:30 AM
I do not resize my brass as of now. I do not forsee myself resizing brass in the near future as well.
You should full-length resize all of your cases, even when using brand new cases for consistency.

I may give a try to increasing my OAL to see if this helps/hurts accuracy. Any thoughts?
Accuracy is the result of consistency in reloading procedures:

1. Full-length resize cases (shell holder/plate almost "kisses" the bottom of the resizing die)
2. Determine Max OAL to reduce distance to start of rifling for less gas leakage for more consistent chamber pressures.
3. Determine Ideal OAL for reliable feeding/chambering from the magazine
4. Identify the powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject spent case by conducting a work up (10 rounds of each incremental powder charge of .1-.2 gr from start charge)
5. Ensure powder charge-to-charge variance of less than .1 gr

Due to mixed head stamp and condition of range brass I use, I cannot ensure the consistency of case lengths but have found that not to affect accuracy by much, nor several thousandth of variations in OAL for Glock barrels. With longer leade in Glock barrels and very smooth start of "rounded" rifling, I do not believe the OAL variations will make that much difference in producing more consistent chamber pressures.

Adequate neck tension from full-length resizing of case will help produce more consistent chamber pressures. Also, using bullets with longer base/bearing surface that seat deeper in the case neck will help produce more consistent chamber pressures.

45_auto
January 4, 2012, 10:54 AM
I do not resize my brass as of now.

And you're wondering why you're having problems????

zhd
January 4, 2012, 11:42 AM
45 auto - I think the problems I was having was loading low powder charges. I was loading low charges with 200 gn bullet, I changed over to a 185 gn bullet and kept the same powder charges and did not adjust. Like I stated in previous post I am very new to reloading ( only about 3 months) and still learning from those who have more knowledge than I. I know that resizing is a necessity but for right now I am foregoing that step until I really understand what I am doing fully. My loads now are doing fine with no resizing and I do measure my cases and separate them out accordingly. I will be tweaking and learning more and more as I go and I am sure I will resize eventually.

bds
January 4, 2012, 12:13 PM
You must resize your spent cases for your reloaded rounds to perform properly. When a round is fired, the case bulges from the pressure of powder burning and grows shorter in length. When you resize the case, the resizing die reduces the inside diameter of the case neck smaller than the diameter of the bullet to provide neck tension and reduce bullet set back during feeding from the magazine where the nose of the round will bump the feed ramp. Resing will also ensure feeding and chambering of the finished rounds as the outer dimensions (width/length) would be more within the chamber specifications.

Not resizing your spent cases will result in shorter cases with poor neck tension and decreased chamber pressures that may explain why your slide did not reliably cycle with the max published load data. I would recommend that you stop reloading anymore rounds until you full-length resize your cases and conduct another powder work up from published start charge using the OAL that works for your pistol and the bullet in question.

zhd
January 4, 2012, 12:36 PM
Ok, can you recommend a good starting resizer and just a general overview of the whole resizing process? Again I am very new to reloading and forgive me if this seems elementary to the veterans of reloading on here. I just want to learn the correct way (long way) and I can develop my own shortcuts or tricks of the trade as I go.

Thanks for the heads up on resizing, I did not know that it was as important as it is.

Blue68f100
January 4, 2012, 08:27 PM
Most any carbide type sizing die will work. I like Hornady, RCBS, Redding but any will work. Stick with the carbide type because they do not require lube.

Every step in reloading has a specific purpose and need. Short cutting is NOT GOOD for SAFETY reasons. Bullet setback can run the pressures high enough to KBOOM a gun.

I recommend that you step back and READ ABC of Reloading and the Lyman Reloading/Data book before you reload any more rounds.

Ammo is a controlled explosion. Step out of bounds and it will let you know.

If your not a person that takes care of the little details. I would suggest that you stop reloading and sell your equipment before someone get hurt.

bds
January 4, 2012, 11:51 PM
Ok, can you recommend a good starting resizer and just a general overview of the whole resizing process?
Installing a carbide sizing die in "O" type single stage press - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptFkvr5XP44

Full-length resizing 45ACP brass - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH_bgO2lpbI&feature=plcp&context=C3cf251bUDOEgsToPDskJXBAkuPbSE8-wApWdhQwQb

Pistol reloading videos - http://www.ammosmith.com/pistol-reloading/index.php

General reloading videos - http://www.ammosmith.com/general-reloading/index.php

MrCountyCop
January 5, 2012, 06:33 AM
Do you mean trim your cases or resize your cases? It's a little hard to skip the resizing if you are de-priming brass. If you bought an RCBS, Lee, or etc etc die set they have the resizing/decapping die included.
RCBS has a good dvd video they made for beginners. Should be able to get it from midwayusa or Cabelas.

BullfrogKen
January 5, 2012, 08:37 AM
Yeah, I'm not sure how you can de-prime your brass without sizing it. Only way I know of is by using a universal de-priming die.


Find someone who knows how to reload properly, become friends with him, and have him show you. That's how I learned.

zhd
January 6, 2012, 08:31 AM
MrCountyCop - You are correct. Please forgive for not properly explaining my process. I do resize with the carbide deprime/resize die in the Lee Pro 1000. I do not trim all my cases yet. That is what I meant. I know that the trimming step will definately help in overall consistency of my ammo but was told that it was not a neccesary step in reloading .45 ACP. Again guys I apologize for the miscommunication and me not being clear. On another note, I did a range test last night. Here were my results. I was using a Glock 21 Gen 4/ Rainier 185 gn flat nose plated/ Win 231 with a 6.4 gn charge. This seems to be the best fit for now. I also tested with Rainier 200 gn round nose plated/ Win 231 with a 5.7 gn charge. I found that with the 200 gn bullet with the lower powder charge had more recoil than the 185 gn with a higher charge. I am assuming that the larger bullet weight was the cause for the higher recoil. I would have thought it would have been the opposite. Anyway, I plan on sticking with the first load for now. It seemed to be fairly accurate. My goal now it just get the most consistent and accurate loads. Thanks for all the pointers guys, any others are always welcome.

bds
January 6, 2012, 01:50 PM
Sorry for the confusion.

I had similar experience with Glocks in 9mm. With lighter 115 gr FMJ, I need to push them harder to reliably cycle the slide; but with heavier 124/125 gr FMJ/plated, I can reliably cycle the slide with lower load data. Same holds true for 40S&W in 155 vs 180.

As to recoil, generally heavier bullet will produce less felt recoil for the similar chamber pressures produced. With the heavier 200 gr bullet vs 185 gr, you may find that low to mid 5 gr of W231/HP-38 produce reliable slide cycling with less felt recoil. Of course, a full powder work up will identify exactly what powder charges will reliably cycle the slide while producing accurate shot groups.

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