Do you ever worry about an assailant wearing body armor?


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MUSICALGUNNUT45
December 27, 2011, 01:31 AM
I hear that criminals are wearing body armor more and more toady. If you ever come up against someone wearing a vest a pistol or shotgun might not cut it. Do you ever worry about this?

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CDR_Glock
December 27, 2011, 01:46 AM
I assume their pelvis is unprotected. Aim for the hip or the head.

The-Reaver
December 27, 2011, 01:52 AM
I do, that is why my home defense weapon of choice is a 12 Gauge loaded with #4 3" magnum.

At any distance within my home a sapi plate & and the bad guy behind it do not stand a chance.
An esapi plate works by obsorbing the hit of a projectile and scattering the energy thus fracturing the plate around the bullets impact. Hit that plate 41 times at the same time with the energy of a car, and the chances quickly shrink.
Not to mention. I am rather quick with follow up shots =)

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 27, 2011, 01:56 AM
I don't really worry about it. I suppose it's possible, and if I lived in an area with more organized crime, like on the border, I might worry more. But around here it's mostly thugs and wannabe gangsters stealing to feed their habit. They would have spent those hundreds of $$$ on crack long ago.

I use an AR-15 for home defense mostly because it's the weapon I'm best at. I suppose a side benefit is that it would have the best chance against armor though.

Nushif
December 27, 2011, 01:58 AM
Short Answer:
About as much as my brand new Yaris exploding. So not at all.

dirtengineer
December 27, 2011, 02:34 AM
Practice head shots if you are worried.

mljdeckard
December 27, 2011, 02:42 AM
I would not trust #4 to penetrate a SAPI plate. A slug maybe, buckshot cushions the delivery of all of the energy.

In a word, no. At least not much. I won't say that it's impossible, but I think that the odds of a bad guy going against an unknown random victim and donning body armor to be remote. They might put it on if they had a strong reason to suspect that the person they were targeting was armed, which indicates.....THEY AREN'T A STRANGER.

The remedy for the possibility is to practice failure drills. But you should be doing this anyway, as you should never assume someone attacking you will stop with the first hit. So, if you are training well already, it really doesn't change your plan.

Deus Machina
December 27, 2011, 06:30 AM
I've never heard of it happening, at least not in my area.

I also remember that police-issue vests are intended to save lives, not make getting shot tickle. A pistol round is still like getting a good punch in, if it doesn't break a rib. If they come into my home, I have worse than a 9mm. They might come out on top, but they won't be happy.

LawScholar
December 27, 2011, 06:36 AM
We live n a pretty safe world, despite regional crime spikes. The odds of being involved in a shooting incident are fairly low. The odds of being involved in a shooting incident in which the assailant is wearing body armor are substantially lower than even that low probability. Worrying about armor piercing is on the order of taking less busy roads to work that are out of your way to slightly reduce your crash probability.

That said, just use common sense gun drills. If a few torso shots don't seem to be having any impact, try head and pelvic shots. If you've practiced, you'll be fine.

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 27, 2011, 06:43 AM
Worrying about armor piercing is on the order of taking less busy roads to work that are out of your way to slightly reduce your crash probability.

I'd say far less than that even. There are tens of thousands of auto deaths per year in the US. I'd wager shootings involving criminals with armor is substantially less.

LawScholar
December 27, 2011, 06:44 AM
^ Agreed, just the best example I could think of off the top of my head. Point being, there comes a point at which vigilance in self-defense transitions into paranoia which hurts your enjoyment of your life.

Tokarevsrule
December 27, 2011, 06:56 AM
I never worry about armor! I carry tokarev!:evil:

btg3
December 27, 2011, 07:03 AM
...criminals are wearing body armor more and more today
Various modes of escalation is an ongoing trend, thus criminals with body armor is not surprising.
Also noteable is home invasion by multiple intruders rather than a single assailant.

Worry? Not at all. As stated above, the probability of occurrence is very low.

Be prepared? Within reason, you bet! (...and no, I do not intend to wear body armor, but that may vary according to the individual.)

Kevin Rohrer
December 27, 2011, 07:04 AM
Assume that if the BG is an outlaw biker (Hell's Angel, Outlaw, etc) that he's wearing body armor (unless you can tell otherwise); other BGs: no.

Zach S
December 27, 2011, 07:09 AM
Level IIIa seems to be the most common, rated for handgun rounds. As someone mentioned earlier, the vest doesn't make getting shot tickle. I've heard it hurts like hell even with the armor.

A similar subject came up here a while back and a LEO mentioned two SWAT team members wearing level III armor (rated for .308) getting shot with a 12 gauge. While their wounds weren't fatal, they were still hospitalized.

I don't worry about it. If I did, I'd be wearing armor as well.

BeerSleeper
December 27, 2011, 07:09 AM
There's always the option to shoot like Butters from South Park.

beatledog7
December 27, 2011, 07:33 AM
I don't worry about an assailant at all.

If my situational awareness drops far enough that I fail to avoid him, or if in spite of my diligence I find myself facing him, good sense and training are most likely still on my side.

And they're better weapons than body armor.

LawScholar
December 27, 2011, 07:36 AM
@ BeerSleeper

If we're going to become a nation of unethical dickshooters, the Chinese can just come in. You take your American Liberation Front straight to hell, Butters!

BeerSleeper
December 27, 2011, 07:44 AM
<sarcasm>It's hard to believe the South Park writers didn't use a more PC term, like "pelvic shot".</sarcasm>

beatledog7
December 27, 2011, 07:51 AM
hard to believe the South Park writers didn't use a more PC term

I'm grateful they don't feel compelled to be PC.

BeerSleeper
December 27, 2011, 07:52 AM
I think the reason I don't worry about it is because, the fact is, no matter how prepared you are, any day can be the day your assailant is more prepared than you. You have to decide what is reasonable, and prepare for that.

I am prepared for the random street thug looking to mug someone, or the chance encounter I could have if I'm in the convenience store when it gets held up. The kind of thugs doing that...well, if they had $300 to buy armor, they wouldn't need to knock over a convenience store for $300.

Rail Driver
December 27, 2011, 07:56 AM
No.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_5.htm



It went right through the armor, just as expected.

It only made a small entry.

But it was clear that there was a larger hole beneath.

So, I dug away the top layer, and this is what I found.

Ugly.

7.62x39 vs. Level IIIA body armor (this is what you're most likely to encounter if an assailant is wearing body armor).

http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/16-22.jpghttp://www.theboxotruth.com/images/16-23.jpg

blume357@bellsouth.net
December 27, 2011, 08:12 AM
two or three to the chest and then one to the head will work regardless of what they are wearing.

wheelgunslinger
December 27, 2011, 08:13 AM
Nah.
One of the basic facts of armed conflict is that sometimes you're just outclassed. Whether I'm outclassed or outclassing the other guy/gal/heshe, they both get the same mind and will to defeat in equal doses.
Equipment is a variable, but not an impossible obstacle for a well trained person.
Be resolved to live. Trust your training and your creative mind.

heeler
December 27, 2011, 08:19 AM
Absolutely no.

45_auto
December 27, 2011, 08:58 AM
I hear that criminals are wearing body armor more and more

Any references, or are you just making this up like the rest of the stuff you've been posting lately?

Paris
December 27, 2011, 09:07 AM
I suppose anything is possible but I haven't seen a flurry of news stories about bad guys wearing body armor. Actually, I'm surprised they don't considering the cost of armor has come down in the last few years.

firesky101
December 27, 2011, 09:38 AM
+1 for the tokarev if you looked in my safe you would be sure i was a communist:neener:

skoro
December 27, 2011, 09:40 AM
Not something I ever really think about. I'm not a likely target for sophisticated criminals.

NavyLCDR
December 27, 2011, 11:00 AM
I hear that criminals are wearing body armor more and more toady. If you ever come up against someone wearing a vest a pistol or shotgun might not cut it. Do you ever worry about this?

Nope. Life is too short to spend worrying about every what if that is possible.

AlexanderA
December 27, 2011, 11:02 AM
In most "street crime" that people tend to worry about, the criminals don't have it together enough to think about donning body armor. Doing so implies a degree of pre-planning and sophistication that would be difficult to prepare against. Unless you're a bank manager or a jewelry-store owner, don't worry about it.

Bobson
December 27, 2011, 11:08 AM
It's irrelevant, IMO.

There are some things I just won't allow myself to stress over; everything fully outside my control is included in that list.

All we can really do is keep training and practicing situational awareness. SA won't stop an attacker from wearing armor, but it may stop you from being attacked to begin with.

One thing you can do is practice Mozambique drills if armor is a real concern for you.

ants
December 27, 2011, 11:18 AM
Do you ever worry about an assialent wearing body armor?No

It's 'assailant' by the way.



In formal self defense handgun training, they have the concept of Designated Head Shot (different academies may use different terms) taken only if controlled rounds to center mass are ineffective and the threat remains. Train properly, and you will be prepared.

That's why I'm not worried. It isn't a matter of freaking out about sensationalized, exaggerated, inflated and inflamed hypotheses. It's about preparedness.

cleardiddion
December 27, 2011, 11:35 AM
Nope.
Even if the guy(s) are wearing body armor unless I'm encountering robocop or something there always a lot of other targets that aren't armored.

ColtPythonElite
December 27, 2011, 11:39 AM
I don't worry about it, because part of my bi-annual training included failure drills......Less worry and more training is the plan here.

303tom
December 27, 2011, 12:16 PM
Not unless he is wearing it on his face.........

Loosedhorse
December 27, 2011, 12:23 PM
Reminds me about the line that all persons who have guns for SD are paranoid; the response is, "If I've got a .45 on my hip, what is there to be paranoid about?" :D

Similarly, if I practice "failure to stop" drills, and my HD gun is a .30 cal, then why would I worry about an assailant with armor?

CoRoMo
December 27, 2011, 12:27 PM
I worry about assailants who arrive in an M1 Abrams. I worry about that all day, everyday. :uhoh:

cleardiddion
December 27, 2011, 12:31 PM
I worry about assailants who arrive in an M1 Abrams. I worry about that all day, everyday.

CoRoMo, why was I drinking a coke while I read that? I'll never know, but I do know that I need a new keyboard.

RevolvingGarbage
December 27, 2011, 12:34 PM
Well duh, that's why I now carry around a concussion grenade and Semtex.

(CODMW3 reference, I apologize)

It is a legitimate concern if one lives in an area with very heavy gang activity, and especially areas where drug cartels are active. If you are in that situation, get yourself an FN FiveSeven, or if you are on a budget, a Tokarev or CZ-52 and get some of the hottest commie surplus you can find.

Or do the sensible thing and carry what you would otherwise carry, with the understanding that IF you get into a gunfight and IF your assailant has good body armor and IF that body armor covers him up entirely so that you could not shoot for an unprotected location, that you can always nudge him so that he falls over on his back like a helpless turtle, unable to right himself in his full body EOD gear with strike faces, and then run away and call the Marines.

Narwhal
December 27, 2011, 12:43 PM
I do, that is why my home defense weapon of choice is a 12 Gauge loaded with #4 3" magnum.

At any distance within my home a sapi plate & and the bad guy behind it do not stand a chance.
An esapi plate works by obsorbing the hit of a projectile and scattering the energy thus fracturing the plate around the bullets impact. Hit that plate 41 times at the same time with the energy of a car, and the chances quickly shrink.
Not to mention. I am rather quick with follow up shots =)

Did you do any research or find any example of #4 buckshot defeating a SAPI plate or did you just make that up because it sounded good?

No shotgun ammo aside from maaaaaybe a 3" hard cast slug will even defeat level IIIa soft body armor, much less a level IV SAPI plate. And yes, that includes #4 buckshot at "any distance within your home".

Well designed plates are designed to take multiple hits from 30.06 AP rounds; I don't know how many buckshot rounds it would take but let's just say you'd probably empty your magazine without successfully penetrating a level IV plate with #4 buck.

This is one of the biggest strikes against a shotgun, however it can be solved by aiming for the head or pelvis if COM shots do not incapacitate.

It's also a myth that hitting an armor plate with shotgun or magnum pistol ammo is going to cause some kind of blunt force trauma that will incapacitate the wearer. In many cases it has little to no effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAJmTTXuwCc
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_3.htm

Bobson
December 27, 2011, 12:58 PM
It's also a myth that hitting an armor plate with shotgun ... is going to cause some kind of blunt force trauma that will incapacitate the wearer. In many cases it has little to no effect.
If that's true, it's a myth I partially bought into.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAJmTTXuwCc
I can't believe there are people who could take an impact like that and keep right on going. It would have to at least knock them down for a good moment, wouldn't it?

Stophel
December 27, 2011, 01:01 PM
Anyone that might assail me while wearing body armor probably would also have 3 or 4 big white letters printed on the front and back of it...

Otherwise, no, it's not a concern. ;)

Narwhal
December 27, 2011, 01:23 PM
I can't believe there are people who could take an impact like that and keep right on going. It would have to at least knock them down for a good moment, wouldn't it?

What sort of impact are you fellows expecting from a shotgun round? It's not going to produce any more "blunt force" trauma on a vest wearer than it did on the shoulder of the shooter via recoil. It might break a rib on a level III wearer but I seriously doubt it would even do that to a level IV plate wearer.

The lethal nature of firearm ammunition comes from its ability to penetrate the body, not "blunt force trauma".

Rail Driver
December 27, 2011, 01:37 PM
What sort of impact are you fellows expecting from a shotgun round? It's not going to produce any more "blunt force" trauma on a vest wearer than it did on the shoulder of the shooter via recoil. It might break a rib on a level III wearer but I seriously doubt it would even do that to a level IV plate wearer.

The lethal nature of firearm ammunition comes from its ability to penetrate the body, not "blunt force trauma".

I'd say it'll probably do some damage to someone wearing IIIA or even III armor.

Take a look at these (courtesy of the box o' truth link I posted earlier):

12ga 00 buckshot
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/16-15.jpg

12ga slug
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/16-20.jpg

#4 buckshot would likely do much less blunt force injury to the armored target than the 00 buckshot would due to the lower mass of the pellets.

Paris
December 27, 2011, 01:44 PM
The lethal nature of firearm ammunition comes from its ability to penetrate the body, not "blunt force trauma".

Ever crushed ice in a bag? You can crush it up easily without breaking the bag open. Try putting a wood plank or a frying pan on top of the ice and then apply force to the buffer. Breaking up the ice is even easier now.

A vest my stop penetration but the energy transfer still occurs. Energy cannot be destroyed and energy transfer will happen. Just because penetration does not occur doesn't mean damage will not be inflicted on the wearer. If you get slapped with several hits while in a vest you're probably out of the fight and maybe even alive.

Stophel
December 27, 2011, 01:48 PM
Just aim for the head. The average violent assailant is probably wearing huge oversize baggy clothes and it might be hard to discern the actual body anyway. ;-)

Bobson
December 27, 2011, 01:51 PM
The average violent assailant is probably wearing huge oversize baggy clothes and it might be hard to discern the actual body anyway.
Why do I hear ice cracking when I read this? :p

Be careful with what you're alluding to.

chhodge69
December 27, 2011, 01:55 PM
Do you ever worry about an assialent wearing body armor?

Only at the mall, and I never go there without backup.

Stophel
December 27, 2011, 01:58 PM
Gecko!!! :D

2WheelsGood
December 27, 2011, 02:03 PM
I use an AR-15 for home defense mostly because it's the weapon I'm best at.

An AR-15 in Ann Arbor? I'll keep the Ann Arbor Jokes to myself. :neener:

Oh, and no, thugs wearing body armor is just about the last thing I worry about. Thugs never consider the idea of getting shot. If they did, they'd look for a different line of work.

ErikO
December 27, 2011, 02:07 PM
I doubt that anyone doing hot burgleries in my neighborhood would be wearing anything that could even slow down a 1 oz slug. ;)

The-Reaver
December 27, 2011, 02:10 PM
mljdeckard; It's not about Peircing the Esapi plate. It's about defeating it.

fastbolt
December 27, 2011, 02:13 PM
Worry about it? No.

Consider the possibility? Sure.

Take it into consideration and occasionally address it during training, practice & quals? Certainly.

FWIW, of all the suspects I remember being arrested by myself or my partner(s), I can only think of a single instance where a felon was in possession of an old ballistic vest. He wasn't wearing it at the time he was found to be in possession of a pistol and some rifles, but he had it in a bag with some guns and ammo.

What I've often found interesting is that when you run quals using full-size picture threat/non-threat 'targets', more often than not the shooters being run through the quals won't "see" (recognize) the large white ballistic vest being worn on the outside of the clothing being worn by the "armed suspect". :scrutiny: They see the weapon, but apparently not the vest. Maybe if it were one of the over-size Level IV vests, done up in khaki or camo, or had gear hanging from it. :neener:

The-Reaver
December 27, 2011, 02:18 PM
Alright I am right by saying that a plate fractures when impacts right? Yes
So 41 pellets impact it all over the place. ( many many fractures ) It is more likely to not work the next time right? again Yes

Is there any slight possibility that 1 of those 41 pellets might just happen by chance to go a little bit high or low and hit the throat, face, gut, pelvis.

I like the idea of putting 164 possible holes down range in a matter of seconds. I believe that makes my odds of surviving a tad bit higher don't you?

Bobson
December 27, 2011, 02:31 PM
They see the weapon, but apparently not the vest. Maybe if it were one of the over-size Level IV vests, done up in khaki or camo, or had gear hanging from it.
Or a "groin protector" lol. Damn things are awkward.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 27, 2011, 03:44 PM
It's also a myth that hitting an armor plate with shotgun or magnum pistol ammo is going to cause some kind of blunt force trauma that will incapacitate the wearer. In many cases it has little to no effect.

Shotgun, I am not sure, but anything from a .357mag or above will in FACT cause some serious blunt force trauma on a level III wearer. Common injury from even the little 9mm impact on a level III wearer is cracked ribs. All you Newton fans always seem to forget the affects of SPEED of mass in violent deceleration. While yes every action has an equal and opposite reaction (recoil), the energy of mass at speed is also a factor in terminal ballistics. That energy has to go somewhere and a level III vest does very little to stop it. The point of a level IV vest was to stop that by dissipating the energy and not allowing it to reach the wearer. Anyone that says blunt force trauma to a wearer of level III armor is a myth has absolutely NO clue at all. I've known a few that were hit while wearing it and they will ALL attest to the fact that it is no way a myth. All of them equated the feeling that it was like getting hit in the chest by a professional boxer.

As to the OP, I am with another poster here in wondering where you have gotten your facts from. I have not seen any data attesting to the fact that body armor is becoming more "trendy" by bad guys.

Narwhal
December 27, 2011, 03:50 PM
So I have no clue, but getting hit in the chest by a boxer is going to incapacitate you? Ok.......

Plus I said PLATE! Not level III...

You guys have been watching too many rambo movies. Keep right on thinkin' you're gonna blast someone back 20 feet when you hit somone in a level IV armor plate with buckshot. LOL.

Enjoy fantasy land!

Telekinesis
December 27, 2011, 03:53 PM
Alright I am right by saying that a plate fractures when impacts right? Yes
So 41 pellets impact it all over the place. ( many many fractures ) It is more likely to not work the next time right? again Yes

The plate wouldn't completely fracture all the way through to the back, it would only fracture on the surface. Assuming you're talking about a level IV plate (rated to 30-06 AP) its going to take quite a few shots to break through. Though, in theory subsequent shots will have a better chance at penetrating.

That's assuming we're talking about SAPI plates and other ceramics, if the guy is wearing steel, you're going to be waiting a long time for anything to penetrate. Steel doesn't fracture when it is shot, it either penetrates or it doesn't. You may get a little backface deformation/spall, but that's of little consequence when the wearer is shooting back. Remember that a plate distributes the force of the shot around the whole plate rather than the one point of impact which means less injury to the wearer when compared to soft armor.

Also, considering that I can get 2 level III steel plates rated to stop multiple .308 hits for $160*, I think its at least worth thinking about that an assailant may be wearing some armor. And hell, I may be buying some for myself at that price.

And as for a pellet finding its way around the plate, its definitely possible, but it depends a lot on range and where the center of your pattern is located. At household distances, your pattern is only about the size of a softball. Remember, its a shotgun, not a claymore on a stick :neener:



Edit: I think a lot of people here are confused about armor levels. Level I, II, and IIIA are soft armor similar to what police wear. It is made of soft woven threads and is flexible. It catches the rounds, but the energy still transfers to the wearer at the point of impact. Level III, and IV are hard plates (steel and ceramic) which are rated to stop multiple hits of up to .308 and 30-06 AP, respectively. They distribute the force of the impact across the entire plate causing in less injury.




*bulletproofme.com (http://www.bulletproofme.com/RP-Steel.html) about half way down the page. 8x10" steel plate.

parsimonious_instead
December 27, 2011, 03:57 PM
I think the best approach is to consider the possibility, plan for it, and then stop over-thinking it.
Sure it's possible, but the run of the mill crook out to break in a grab a few choice items, or hold you up for your wallet is extremely unlikely to wear armor.
Other than the North Hollywood shootout, I remember an incident in which an armored assailant killed some coworkers, then proceeded to go after other people in their homes (former girlfriends and whoever was home with them, as I recall). One of these potential victims got savvy and armed up, just in time for this nutjob to arrive. They exchanged fire - both lived, the bad guy primarily because of his vest.
These sorts of incidents, however notable, are still fortunately in the minority of encounters with violent criminals.

Bobson
December 27, 2011, 04:06 PM
For the sake of peace and simplicity, I think we can all agree (we definitely all seem to agree, on this at least) that the best route to take when attacked by someone wearing some type of armor, is to simply adjust your aim for a different part of the body that doesn't appear to be armored. The lower torso and/or gut/groin area, the neck, face, or head in general; even the limbs if need be.

Note that many vests/plates end at the wearer's navel. When I was in Iraq in 2006, I was issued extra-large front and rear plates to place in my vest. The front plate extended from just below my collarbone to about a half-inch above my belly-button. I'm 5'11.5", and I weighed about 190lbs at the time and I did not have a gut. Point being that the front plate was not sloped on my chest.

Having said all this, understand that I mean no offense to anyone who wants to further explore the possibility or probability of defeating a vest with a specific weapon or projectile type - by all means, go right ahead. Just don't see the point in arguing or getting heated over blunt-impact theories.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 27, 2011, 04:18 PM
So I have no clue, but getting hit in the chest by a boxer is going to incapacitate you? Ok.......

Plus I said PLATE! Not level III...

You guys have been watching too many rambo movies. Keep right on thinkin' you're gonna blast someone back 20 feet when you hit somone in a level IV armor plate with buckshot. LOL.

Enjoy fantasy land!

No one here said you would get "knocked back 20 feet" or anything of the sort. Trauma has nothing to do with that. A tightly focused energy wave delivered by the impact of a bullet has to be dissipated throughout the vest AROUND the wearer or that energy wave will in fact cause damage. And as to your comment about getting hit in the chest by a pro boxer, come on over there buddy and I will educate you to the fact that getting hit in the chest by someone that KNOWS how to deliver a punch will indeed incapacitate MOST people. Why do you think they came up with the ceramics over the steel plates? Did you think it was a weight thing? The steel allows the energy to pass through! The ceramics disperse the energy over the full mass of the plate. Men getting hit, even dead center in the plate while wearing level IIIa, were still going to their knees momentarily and incapacitated.

Level IIIa vests are cheap nowadays. Level IV are still pretty much above what any thug would be willing to think about spending.

Narwhal
December 27, 2011, 04:48 PM
All I'm saying is that a shotgun is not going to be effective against Level IV armor plates.

We can argue all day about how much damage it will and won't cause to a soft armor wearer, but I don't really care about that; I'm just trying to dissuade people of the notion that level IV armor plates are going to be easily defeated or cause the wearer to be incapacitated by shotgun rounds.

SharpsDressedMan
December 27, 2011, 06:51 PM
I always shoot the bad guys in the head. They rarely wear armored face masks or helmets............

45_auto
December 27, 2011, 07:01 PM
What if the bad guy was like Darth Vader? Where should I shoot him? Is his helmet bulletproof?

MUSICALGUNNUT45
December 27, 2011, 07:23 PM
I think the best approach is to consider the possibility, plan for it, and then stop over-thinking it.
Sure it's possible, but the run of the mill crook out to break in a grab a few choice items, or hold you up for your wallet is extremely unlikely to wear armor.
Other than the North Hollywood shootout, I remember an incident in which an armored assailant killed some coworkers, then proceeded to go after other people in their homes (former girlfriends and whoever was home with them, as I recall). One of these potential victims got savvy and armed up, just in time for this nutjob to arrive. They exchanged fire - both lived, the bad guy primarily because of his vest.
These sorts of incidents, however notable, are still fortunately in the minority of encounters with violent criminals.
Right up the street from where I live we had three police officers killed durring a domestic call. The officers went up to a house and where let in, and then a gunman opened up on them with an AK-47, one of them drew and fired but his bullets where stopped by the suspects body armor. A couple of other officers where injured in the following stand off and it wasn't until a ricochet hit the suspects leg that he stopped.

writerinmo
December 27, 2011, 07:54 PM
This is why I have Mosin's...

2WheelsGood
December 27, 2011, 07:57 PM
one of them drew and fired but his bullets where stopped by the suspects body armor.

Sure, and sometimes people get struck by lightning. Sometimes people win the lottery. And sometimes people die from eating a hamburger. Everything in life is about playing the odds. The risk of some thug wearing body armor--and that changing the outcome of a self-defense encounter with said thug--is freakishly low. And there's really not much you can do about it anyway.

SharpsDressedMan
December 27, 2011, 09:14 PM
"What if the bad guy was like Darth Vader? Where should I shoot him? Is his helmet bulletproof?"................................................................. In that case, I'd shoot the light sabre out of his hand.........

ball3006
December 27, 2011, 09:35 PM
No. I use ammo that will defeat body armor...............chris3

Stophel
December 27, 2011, 10:36 PM
Ooh, but what if he's a zombie???

SharpsDressedMan
December 27, 2011, 10:51 PM
THR members don't believe in zombies, therefore they pose no threat to us.

jojo200517
December 27, 2011, 11:11 PM
Do I worry about an assailant wearing body armor? Eh where to begin. What kind of armor (level III or level IIIA soft, lever IV plates), how much (just a chest plate or vest or full on combat gear), and in what kind of attack (in public, home invasion etc).

The bottom line here is no I don't really worry too much about it at all, but I have gave it a thought.

Its already been said that no matter what kind of armor you are wearing it still won't make getting shot tickle. Level IIIA should stop almost all common handgun rounds along with lead shotgun slugs and shot. Its still gonna hurt and if the threat hasn't stopped coming i'm still going to be shooting or running away at a high rate of speed one.

Level IV plates are rated to stop a SINGLE hit from a .30-06 AP round. There are some plates that will stop multi hits but last I checked on any they were above requirements for being rated at level IV and therefore only certified by the manufacture. I haven't seen any test data for them being shot with shotgun slugs, buckshot, multi hits with lesser caliber rifle round. It would be interesting to know how much it would take to get thru a standard level IV plate with say 7.62x39 or 7.62 nato.

I guess the "plan" if someone smashes thru the door wearing full body armor is to empty the shotgun into them, if they are still coming go for the .308 saiga, and if that doesn't work hope I can make it to the mosin and that I have softened it up a bit by then. Nah, if they survive the shotgun and are still coming at me i'll probably quickly evaluate an exit route. Full body plates are heavy and moving should be slow so i'd go for run.

Ooh, but what if he's a zombie???
THR members don't believe in zombies, therefore they pose no threat to us.
Eh either way Hornady has that covered. http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/zombiemax

Stophel
December 28, 2011, 12:12 AM
Assaulted by a squad of zombie Spetsnaz commandos, all wearing body armor...

Actually, I think there are some who really do think this is going to happen to them...

leadcounsel
December 28, 2011, 12:44 AM
Nope. That's like number 10,000 on my "worry" list.

I would assume that anyone with the $ and foresight to have armor, will also be organized with a plan and several people with armor and firepower. Would be a heck of a show at casa-de-leadcounsel...

But anyone with that type of financial backing and organization is not interested in my home or wallet. They're gonna go after a bank or armored car with bags of money, not my TV and DVD player...

Despite that, I would fare relatively well against even multiple armored assailants in a home invasion., given a few moments notice. 12 gauge and .308 will punch holes through common armor; unload a few mags from my FAL down through the walls/stairwell... anyone left standing is going to question why they are there to begin with...

writerinmo
December 28, 2011, 12:45 AM
Rule #2... Double tap. Repeat as needed

mgmorden
December 28, 2011, 02:51 AM
Nope. There's only so much preparation you can reasonably do. Even if he's not wearing armor he might get the jump on you. You might miss. He might return fire resulting in both parties dying.

It boils down to chances.

There's a very, very small % chance that you'll ever be in a need to draw your weapon.
There's then a smaller chance that you'll need to fire it.

Both those scenarios have to come to pass for us to even be at a point where we're worrying about this. Then there's a lot of other chances that come into play. Weapons malfunctions, simple bad luck, etc, but the reality is that no matter how well you are prepared, by the time we make it to this point there's a fairly decent chance you're not going to survive the encounter. Being armed just gives you a fighting chance - it's not a simple ticket back to some safe zone.

If you fail to realize that and simply prepare to a reasonable level, then you're going to be on one frustrating wild goose chase trying to search down the perfect combination of training and gear to get you out of any situation - because no such thing exists. Its all about risk mitigation. Carrying a gun helps, but you're just naive if you don't realize that though the chance is remote, any given day could very well be your last.

fastbolt
December 28, 2011, 03:12 AM
According to the UCR stats for 2010, of the 56 officers feloniously killed in the line of duty, at the time of their murders 38 of them were wearing body armor. Additional info can be found scrolling down the page at: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/leoka-2010/officers-feloniously-killed

dusty14u
December 28, 2011, 08:23 AM
"When I look back on all these worries, I remember the story of the old man who said on his deathbed that he had had a lot of trouble in his life, most of which had never happened”

Winston Churchill

I prepare to the best of my ability and no, I don't worry about someone wearing bodyarmor.

cincinnatislim
December 28, 2011, 10:24 AM
I don't give it much thought other than, "Hmm. I probably should put on my body armor as well."

Loosedhorse
December 28, 2011, 10:41 AM
"When I look back on all these worries, I remember the story of the old man who said on his deathbed that he had had a lot of trouble in his life, most of which had never happened”

Winston Churchill Very ironic, if Churchill said this.

Churchill was pretty much retired from politics in the 1930s, having been pushed out for two extremely unpopular opinions: that Hitler was a danger to England, and that England should be rearming for war NOW. After WWII started, showing that Chamberlain's "Peace in Our Time" appeasement of Hilter was a disasterous delusion, Churchill was appointed First Lord of the Admiralty; and of course soon became Prime Minister.

So, perhaps his story should have ended: "...a lot of trouble in his life, some of the worst of which did happen, with much of the rest prevented by preparation."

porchdog
December 28, 2011, 10:48 AM
I dont worry about body armor because I do not "worry" about being assaulted. Dont mean to sound rude but it is not something that I dwell on. If I did I might not leave the house.

Zach S
December 28, 2011, 11:04 AM
So I have no clue, but getting hit in the chest by a boxer is going to incapacitate you? Ok...
Yes. I've seen several fights that lasted for one punch. I used to go to that bar just to watch the fights.

Then they closed that bar down after a gunfight in the parking lot. For those of you in Western NC, yes, I'm talking about the Patton Avenue Pub...

Toaster
December 28, 2011, 01:49 PM
Quote: I hear that criminals are wearing body armor more and more toady. If you ever come up against someone wearing a vest a pistol or shotgun might not cut it. Do you ever worry about this?

Could you provide us with a link or reference? I'd like to know where the information in many of these posts originates. There's a big difference between documenation and heresay.

mgregg85
December 28, 2011, 02:53 PM
I worry about it about as much as I worry about the sun burning out or asteroids or a military coup taking place. Sure it's possible but what can I do to prepare for it? Not much, that's what so why bother worrying.

REDMASTA
December 28, 2011, 03:01 PM
aim for the melon on top of his shoulders

guyfromohio
December 28, 2011, 03:14 PM
The people I worry about would have traded a vest for drugs.

ATLDave
December 28, 2011, 04:07 PM
If I were a high-profile political figure who might be the target of assasination, or a diamond merchant who might be the target of a professional group of sophisticated robbers, I might worry a tiny bit. But there's no reason for a purposeful, planning, risk-averse* criminal to seek me out.

* One line of explanation for criminal behavior is that most criminals are risk seeking. I find this fairly believeable, and am disinclined to credit what the OP has "heard" about criminals wearing body armor. Crime is actually at very low rates. The world may be more financially dangerous, but it's physically pretty safe.

Robbins290
December 28, 2011, 04:19 PM
Assaulted by a squad of zombie Spetsnaz commandos, all wearing body armor...

Actually, I think there are some who really do think this is going to happen to them...
I agree! Lol. Thats why i keep loaded cz52's in the house

brnmuenchow
December 28, 2011, 04:28 PM
Luckily I am a single guy and don't have to worry about other people in the house, so I figure that even if they were wearing body armor, my .45-70 Gov't Brush Gun will at the very least knock them on their butt and if it does not go thru the armor then I will hit them over the head with the butt end a few times. Either way they may quickly realize they got the wrong address! :evil:

DM~
December 28, 2011, 04:54 PM
I never worry about it, but i have thought about it. All i can say is, they are going to be in a world of hurt when i let one fly out of the bottom bbl. of my "go to gun",

http://fototime.com/290DCFD1D04F451/orig.jpg

a 200NP is going to put the hurt on them, body armor or not!!

DM

Dmitri Popov
December 29, 2011, 12:55 AM
I don't worry to much. From my understanding, getting shot with a vest on is still roughly equivalent to taking the impact of a baseball bat being swung by a MLB player.
That's with a 9mm if I recall correctly.

I would just always assume that any assailant is hopped on meth or some such substance, therefore you shoot til they ain't moving no more.
Remember the SOP line used by the police, "Shoot to stop the threat."
If that means unloading two magazines on an assailant, do it.

Besides, IMHO the High assailant is much more dangerous than the armored assailant who is still feeling pain.

The-Reaver
December 29, 2011, 02:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMjh_XbkiI

Three broken ribs

Yes he gets up. But in the time that he gets up another round would be chambered and down range. Effectivly stopping the target.

BP44
December 29, 2011, 02:44 AM
No I sure dont. It wont take more than a handfull of shots 'till I aim for the head.If shooting center mass isnt working shoot somewhere else.

ShawnC
December 29, 2011, 05:16 AM
It is foremost in my mind. That's why when the going gets really tough I switch to my exploding batarangs, then hop back in the Batmobile.

The Kershaw
December 29, 2011, 06:00 AM
I'd like to see where break in thugs are sporting bulletproof vests.

coloradokevin
December 29, 2011, 06:03 AM
Short answer: I don't think it is a big concern.

I've spent the past decade working as a night shift police officer in a high-crime urban environment. In that time I've responded to literally dozens upon dozens of shootings, hundreds of gang fights, and recovered guns from criminals on quite a few occasions.

In that time I've encountered only two civilians (criminal or otherwise) who were wearing body armor (Level II in both cases, if I recall correctly), and know of one case where a local police supply store was burglarized for body armor.

In both of the cases where the bad guy was wearing body armor, I was armed with a rifle due to the nature of the call. As such, the soft body armor they were wearing wouldn't have made a bit of difference if either of those encounters ended up going south.

I don't really worry about this too much, but we do train for such things. Simply put, if you're ever in an unfortunate situation where you need to fire upon another person, be prepared to win: if you shoot them in the torso and it proves to be ineffective, shoot them somewhere else.

Similarly, I think of my own body armor as a back-up, back-up plan. Avoiding bullets is my primary goal, and I also try to keep in mind that body armor only covers a relatively small portion of my body (yeah, it's the torso, but I'm also kind of attached to my head, neck, groin, legs, arms, etc).

ArmedOkie
December 29, 2011, 11:17 AM
People who believe body armor makes you unstoppable have never been shot. People who think getting punched in the chest by a heavyweight is not a big deal have never spat on mike tyson.


In fact I have an acquaintance who was shot in the back in Iraq. He completely passed out for about five minutes.

ball3006
December 29, 2011, 12:08 PM
I am not a wealthy guy so going to such extremes to invade my house is not worth the trouble. A 12 ga slug to the chest, and if that doesn't work, buckshot to the balls. Double barrels are nice for that. I believe that will get his attention....chris3

Martel
December 29, 2011, 12:32 PM
I personally don't worry about it, although I do plan on getting body armor at some point. It's not high on my list though. I've never heard of criminals wearing body armor in my area, but if it became a problem I'd probably just switch to my AR for primary home defense. Some good 62gr green tips should solve just about anything that comes my way... and again, the chances are so remote...why worry?! Guns are the perfect cure for worry anyway. :)

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 29, 2011, 12:49 PM
Martel, welcome to THR!

JohnBiltz
December 29, 2011, 02:12 PM
I'd like to see where break in thugs are sporting bulletproof vests.
There was a gang operating in Phoenix that were wearing vests and doing home invasions. They would come in wearing full SWAT gear. They were mainly targeting drug dealers and did a number of kidnappings as well.

Crazy Uncle Al Gore
December 29, 2011, 05:11 PM
Its a major concern for me, and that why I duck tape trauma plates to my chest and back in the event that the mugger has a 338 Lapua

brnmuenchow
December 30, 2011, 09:52 AM
I'd like to see where break in thugs are sporting bulletproof vests.

I am not going to say never, but I am willing to bet 99.98% don't.

woad_yurt
December 30, 2011, 10:42 AM
Do you ever worry about an assailant wearing body armor?

Nope.

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