Which AR should I get based on the following


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Skribs
December 27, 2011, 05:06 PM
I am looking at getting an AR in the near-ish future. Previously I had looked at some of the more expensive ones out there, but I have changed my mind somewhat on what is important to me. Now, I am coming from the perspective of someone who owns multiple handguns and a single shotgun, so I have very little experience with rifles in general, and not sure exactly what is a need vs. a luxury for my specific purposes.

Specifically, I want an AR for a combination of HD and non-competition target shooting (for fun and practice). My specific requirements that I want are:

1. It has to be all black. Not because itís the ďBlack RifleĒ but because all my guns are black. Itís my favorite color.

2. Reliable enough to trust my life with.

3. 5.56mm NATO. I know the merits of other calibers, and Iíve debated it in the past. I specifically want to start with 5.56 for ammo availability over 6.8 and recoil compared with 7.62.

4. 100 MOA accuracy or better. Seriously Ė if I can hit a dinner plate at 10 yards, itíll do. I know I can expect significantly better than this, though. Iím just not looking for a target rifle. I donít expect to need it even at 5 yards.

5. Full bottom rail, full top rail (preferably uninterrupted), and at least half side rails (preferably full).

6. Ambidextrous controls (safety, magazine release) are preferred, but not required.

7. Forward assist and dust cover are both NOT required. But Iím not opposed, either.

8. Telescoping stock.

Beyond that, Iím not sure what twist rate I should get, or what parts I should consider chrome lining to be required vs. superfluous, so any advice would be helpful.

Can anyone give me any advice on which AR would fit my needs for the least amount of money?

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Cal-gun Fan
December 27, 2011, 05:26 PM
What about a Smith and Wesson MP15 Sport model? You could buy a rail system you like afterwards.

Skribs
December 27, 2011, 05:45 PM
I could probably do that. I saw a rail on amazon for $40 that would probably do nicely. Any other suggestions, while we're here?

Pete D.
December 27, 2011, 05:46 PM
As to #4...4. 100 MOA accuracy or better. Seriously Ė if I can hit a dinner plate at 10 yards, itíll do. I know I can expect significantly better than this, though. Iím just not looking for a target rifle. I donít expect to need it even at 5 yards.


Do you really mean one hundred MOA? That'd be over eight feet at 100 yards. A dinner plate at 10 yards is 100 MOA.....if that is the best a rifle will do....you could miss.
Pete

Ro1911
December 27, 2011, 05:53 PM
S&W M&P 15 (not the sport unless your ok with the stuff its missing)

then ad all the stuff you want

oh btw this is a1 to 2 moa rifle, never compromise on accuracy

Ghost Tracker
December 27, 2011, 06:03 PM
"...fits all my needs...trust my life with...for the least amount of money..."We're MUCH better at opinionation on spending OMP (Other People's Money) when we have an idea of your budget. Just like car parts "Speed costs money. How fast do ya' wanna' go?"

Skribs
December 27, 2011, 06:04 PM
In an HD situation, I want to hit someone's chest at 10 yards or less (in my place, probably 10 feet or less). So for practicality, yes, 100 MOA is the minimum. The point was, I don't care if it's 2 MOA or 1.5 MOA or some uber-sniper-competition 0.4 MOA gun. I want something that will shoot reliably.

It was kind of a joke, too. But in all seriousness, to meet my social demands, I don't NEED the accuracy.

EDIT: Ghost Tracker, my needs are above. The budget is what I need to spend to get those needs met. I'm not saying "how fast can I go for $X." I'm saying, "for 86 MPH, what's the cheapest engine I can get?"

stonecutter2
December 27, 2011, 06:06 PM
The quality of my Spike's M4 complete upper is awesome, and was $499. Has a lifetime warranty.

Pick yourself a quality lower (or just one that has a rollmark you like), buy a stock and a lower parts kit.

Shouldn't be too bad cost-wise.

Ro1911
December 27, 2011, 06:11 PM
@stonecutter2

+1

this was my second answer

CoRoMo
December 27, 2011, 06:12 PM
6. Ambidextrous controls
The only manufacturers to my knowledge offering a lower with ambi controls would be Knight Armament and AXTS Weapons. A few others offer a billet lower with ambi safety only, but not fully ambi.

Skribs
December 27, 2011, 06:13 PM
Eh, I'm fine with buying a gun and changing a couple of parts, but I'm not looking to completely build one. Too much work.

EDIT: CoRoMo, POF has everything full ambi standard. But while I like the looks of their gun, I can't get over the $2200 MSRP on my salary.

proven
December 27, 2011, 06:19 PM
are you saying that you'll only use the rifle at distance no more than ten feet? why buy a rifle? it's overkill for a HD gun indoors. your better off with your shotgun. and why the rails if you're only using it at that range?

CoRoMo
December 27, 2011, 06:21 PM
Too much work.
The upper is connected to the lower with two pins.

Skribs
December 27, 2011, 06:26 PM
Why the rails? Flashlight for target ID, red dot for easier sighting, AFG for comfort. And I want them.

I have a shotgun. I also want a rifle. It's not really overkill when you look at what an HD 5.56mm round does, anymore than a shotgun is overkill. I'm not getting a .30-06, I'm getting a 5.56 carbine. Each platform has its advantages, and I don't want to be limitted to only one platform.

My needs are HD and plinking. Plinking I may go farther, but primary need is HD. The longest distance in my place is maybe 30-40 feet, but from a defensible position probably 10 feet.

CoRoMo, what I'm saying is I don't want to get pieces from all over and put it together. I want to buy a complete rifle and change things out as I need.

proven
December 27, 2011, 06:32 PM
so you think that a shotgun has as much penetration in a home as a 5.56? the light and afg i understand, but why do you need a red dot sight? the irons will be just fine at ten feet. they're all plenty accurate for plinking and HD. saying you just want it to hit a pie plate at 10 feet and you don't care about accuracy beyond that seems silly.

Skribs
December 27, 2011, 06:35 PM
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION

No, proven, I don't think there's a difference. In fact, if there is a difference, the 5.56 is better at resisting overpenetration.

Red dot is for the purpose that I don't have to be exactly lined up - faster target aquisition. After all, that's why our troops use it for urban combat, right?

Ghost Tracker
December 27, 2011, 06:48 PM
Ghost Tracker, my needs are above. The budget is what I need to spend to get those needs met. No offense intended, "trust my life with" is kinda' subjective. I don't know your threshold for that. Some folks trust nothing less than a Colt AR, some folks wish Hi-Point would make an AR so they could buy a less expensive one. Okay...

(1.) "Black" = takes a hard hunt to find anything else.
(2.) "trust my life" = please see Colt/Hi-point above.
(3.) "5.56" = please see answer, item #1.
(4.) "100 MOA accuracy" = should get that sloppin' pigs, from a cheap bucket.
(5.) "rails" = easily available as aftermarket
(5.) "ambi" = please see answer, item #5.
(6.) "forward assist & dust cover delete...or not" = decide...or not.
(7.) "Telescoping stock" = please see answers, items #1 & #3.
(P.S) twist, chrome lining or superfluous? = please see answer, item #6.

Oh, this is easy. You should obviously pick MY favorite AR because I...already did :evil:.
Seriously, any nice, well-regarded, mid-grade AR (S&W, Stag, etc. etc.) should fill your requirements. Past that, go upwards to Les Baer or Daniel Defense or downwards to parts bin you-build-it kits with a generic lower. $2500 to $675. Enjoy deciding.

MistWolf
December 27, 2011, 07:08 PM
It would be best to simply get a basic carbine and shoot it until you figure out just what you need. For example, rails are not needed to mount a flashlight & sling on an HD carbine. There are other, more cost effective alternatives. Check out this light mount from Mossie Tactical:
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/378131_2835884306307_1535197888_2756154_1836275836_n.jpg

Use a QD cup for a sling:
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0201.jpg

Just get a basic carbine and shoot it to figure out what needs to be changed and what you want changed. This one is mine. I've got an Aimpoint H1 on order. The furniture can be had in black
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/PSA001.jpg

Ghost Tracker
December 27, 2011, 07:12 PM
MistWolf, how do you activate that TLR1? Do you have to get your finger up/out to the toggle?

marine 97-03
December 27, 2011, 07:17 PM
+1 m&p 15 sport

Skribs
December 27, 2011, 07:19 PM
Yeah I'm pretty much sold on the M&P15 at this point.

Bubba613
December 27, 2011, 07:31 PM
DPMS Oracle. Change out the handguard and the other parts you want.
You can spend more, but you're just wasting money.

dprice3844444
December 27, 2011, 07:41 PM
http://www.ratworxusa.com/ratworxusa.com/pagDetail.aspx?SKU=RW-Colt-LE-6940

proven
December 27, 2011, 07:43 PM
good luck finding the right rifle for your needs. sounds like you have a great start towards that end.

those ballistics articles leave something to be desired in my mind. but hey, whatever floats your boat.

honestly, if i had a nickel for every thread asking which ar someone should choose....well, you know.

and seriously...anything more than a dpms oracle is just wasting money? give me a break:rolleyes:

Skribs
December 27, 2011, 07:52 PM
Other people have different needs. It's why there are so many AR brands. If the choice was easy, only one brand would be in business. I'd rather post my needs and ask the people who know more about ARs than I do which would fit the bill than search through every brand I could find to see if they have something that meets what I want. And then I might miss a brand that someone else could have pointed out.

chrt396
December 27, 2011, 08:01 PM
Other than the ambidextrous controls...the Ruger SR556 seems to fit all your needs...and more! Lot of rifle for the money. If I'm not mistaken...they are pretty inexpensive now for a well featured rifle. I bought mine a year +/- a month ago and it was $1400 OTD. Great quality!!!

Aiko492
December 27, 2011, 09:06 PM
With an rifle that you are intending to trusting your life with vs target shooting, a good read is this very comprehensive comparison of all of the major AR manufacturers. You will see that there is a lot to read up on and all are NOT created equal. When I bought my first AR, I really wish I had researched things a little better and taken a little more time. Colt, Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, LMT, Noveske among others are great choices.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1019457#post1019457

red rick
December 27, 2011, 09:06 PM
Take a look at a Daniel Defense DDM4V3 or Colt 6940.

highpower
December 27, 2011, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure why you are so dead set against putting one together. When you order a complete rifle kit, less lower receiver, all the parts are there and from the same manufacturer. I don't know about other companies, but PSA sells you the kit with an assembled and headspaced upper. All you have to do is put the parts in the lower, which takes 30-45 minuets and you have a complete gun.

PSA lower..................;..........................49.95
PSA M4 carbine complete kit less lower.....499.99
Shipping...............................................22.00
Rear sight.............................................35.00
__________________________________________
Total..................................................606.94

Because it comes from out of state, there is no sales tax. You save enough money to add all sorts of do-dads on it and still come out ahead. Also, in the case of PSA, the parts are all mil-spec and the barrels are made by FN (the US military contractor for AR's).

This is what you get when you are done: AR M4 carbine,
http://highpower.smugmug.com/Other/AR15/i-8Nk3cnc/0/XL/IMG0846-XL.jpg

Or, if you prefer a more traditional look, you can build a AR15-A2. This is a rifle I built over 20 years ago and it still runs flawlessly,
http://highpower.smugmug.com/Other/AR15/i-HwV4rTk/0/XL/IMG0849-XL.jpg

Hacker15E
December 28, 2011, 12:49 AM
Assembling an AR-15 from a parts kit is about as challenging as changing your car's oil or building a kid's Lego set, so long as you have some basic tools (mallet/hammer, punch, screwdriver, some kind of tape to protect the finish while punching roll pins) and the ability to watch a YouTube video and mimic what you see.

IMHO building (really 'assembling') is the only way to ensure you get *exactly* what you want, both in terms of features but also in terms of a quality/price point that suits your needs. No wasted parts to replace, no features that you don't need or want.

Palmetto State Armory is a great option as mentioned above, but there are plenty of other great companies that will suit the needs as you've outlined them. An evening or two reading AR15.com and M4carbine.net will give you plenty of opinions on any of those companies and their products.

benzy2
December 28, 2011, 01:07 AM
If those were my priorities I'd get a colt 6920 and swap out a two piece rail for the standard hand guards down the road if I felt i needed them. Anymore they aren't expensive in the ar world and reliable is their reputation. They are the gold standard for a reason and would be where I start.

I like many of the rifles listed in this thread and would personally buy many of them but when the first real priority is reliability I'd spend my money on a colt.

nathan
December 28, 2011, 01:10 AM
Me personally, i want a complete Spike's Midlength upper and a RRA complete lower . I like their two stage trigger and hogue grip to boot.

MistWolf
December 28, 2011, 08:17 AM
MistWolf, how do you activate that TLR1? Do you have to get your finger up/out to the toggle?

I do not have one of these mounts yet, nor have I tried one but I'm giving serious thought to getting one. Here is a picture Stickman posted in a thread over at m4carbine.net. Just flick that switch with your thumb
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Centurion%20Arms/IMG_0127-1200-Stick.jpg
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95251
It looks to be a well thought out mount

MistWolf
December 28, 2011, 08:23 AM
I'm not sure why you are so dead set against putting one together. When you order a complete rifle kit, less lower receiver, all the parts are there and from the same manufacturer. I don't know about other companies, but PSA sells you the kit with an assembled and headspaced upper. All you have to do is put the parts in the lower, which takes 30-45 minuets and you have a complete gun.

PSA lower..................;..........................49.95
PSA M4 carbine complete kit less lower.....499.99
Shipping...............................................22.00
Rear sight.............................................35.00
__________________________________________
Total..................................................606.94

Because it comes from out of state, there is no sales tax. You save enough money to add all sorts of do-dads on it and still come out ahead. Also, in the case of PSA, the parts are all mil-spec and the barrels are made by FN (the US military contractor for AR's)

This is the route I took for my AR carbine, except I got the stainless steel barrel because they were out of the FN barrels in the configuration I wanted

Or, if you prefer a more traditional look, you can build a AR15-A2. This is a rifle I built over 20 years ago and it still runs flawlessly,
http://highpower.smugmug.com/Other/AR15/i-HwV4rTk/0/XL/IMG0849-XL.jpg

Nice! The flat top A2 is my favorite AR

Ky Larry
December 28, 2011, 08:46 AM
If you have decided that you must have an AR-type rifle, there are many to choose from. However, have you considered one of the AK variants? At the distances you're wanting to shoot, it should be fine. They're simple to use, ultra-reliable, cheap to buy, and cheap to feed. I'm not trying restart another AK vs AR thread war, just pointing out another possibility. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Tirod
December 28, 2011, 11:02 AM
They're simple to use, ultra-reliable, cheap to buy, and cheap to feed. I'm not trying restart another AK vs AR thread war,

Yes, you are. And the AK doesn't have a headlock on those qualities. The AR is equally adept. 'Nuf said.

For the basic premise involved, any M4gery would do. The best attributes of "HD" and "target shooting" are contradictory when viewed by the best examples of each. A tricked out CQB carbine, vs. a benchrest National Match 20" rifle.

Obviously, the defining features of both combined would make it look like a lot of other posted pics, the legendary sniper scoped bipod equipped 16" carbine with sling and flashlight as so often proudly displayed.

Home Defense is better handled with a pistol, you can even carry it during a barbecue party. Kinda awkward with an M4, which is too big to fit on the nightstand. HD with a rifle is about standoff anyway, reaching out to the perimeter of the property. That's the better application, and the "target shooting" aspect supports it in that role, vs a short stocked 12" barreled carbine trying to reach out 300m.

A 16" midlength with rifle handguards will be short enough for the house, long enough to reach out effectively, and still be fun enough to take to the range. With an FSB it's a dissipator, with a rifle length quad rail, a recce, and a lot more like what you see at a three gun match.

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 11:52 AM
Home Defense is better handled with a pistol,

I almost LOLed at this. I've always read, especially in the S&T forum here, that Long Guns beat Handguns for HD any day of the week, whether it's a shotgun or a rifle. Handgun is to get to your long gun, then you bunker down in a safe room with your long gun while you call the police.

KY Larry, I had considered AK and M14/mini-14 variants. However, I decided that what I want most, that meets my wants the most, is an AR15. I also only want one rifle platform (so if I get a .308, it will be an AR10 variant) for simplicity of MOA. I have nothing against AKs, but I will probably never own one.

2WheelsGood
December 28, 2011, 12:00 PM
but why do you need a red dot sight? the irons will be just fine at ten feet.

I sorta disagree. I mean, yes, irons are plenty accurate, but they take a lot more time lining up to be accurate than, say, an EOTech. In an HD situation you often don't have the time.

Put another way, the reason for the soaring popularity of EOTechs (and similar sights) isn't accuracy, it's target acquisition.

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 12:14 PM
2Wheels, that's exactly why I want a RDS.

2WheelsGood
December 28, 2011, 12:20 PM
2Wheels, that's exactly why I want a RDS.

Because I mostly wanted my AR for the same reasons you do, I bought the S&W M&P15 that doesn't come with any sights because the EOTech was very important to me. I accepted long before I bought it that the sight would cost a good 50% as much as the gun itself. Still totally worth it.

Mine:

http://i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff505/waltherpps/6448571153_303d6e5b84_b.jpg

devildog66
December 28, 2011, 12:31 PM
I would say to simply buy the least expensive AR that you can find in 5.56 caliber and go from there. And PSA is about the best route available; I bought two of their lowers for $113 total in the door. And, of course, used is always better! The beauty of the AR is that Joe Bag 'O Doughnuts can build/accessorize it to any whim or desire with about 5 tools and a padded vise.

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 01:08 PM
For personal reasons, I will never buy a used gun.

2Wheels, from the prices I'm looking at in my local stores, S&W M&P15 Sport = $700, Aimpoint Micro H1 = $550. 78% the price.

It's better than Benelli Supernova for $450 and a Micro H1 for $550, the sight is 122% the price of the gun.

2WheelsGood
December 28, 2011, 01:20 PM
For personal reasons, I will never buy a used gun.

2Wheels, from the prices I'm looking at in my local stores, S&W M&P15 Sport = $700, Aimpoint Micro H1 = $550. 78% the price.

My M&P is the OR(Optics Ready)-MOE(Magpul Original Equipment) version. I paid $899 for the gun and $415 for an EOTech 512. So in my configuration it's a bit under 50%.

Coincidentally, I also have a Benelli SuperNova, though just stock ghost-ring sights.

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 01:27 PM
I actually don't have a sight on my SN at the present time. I bought a rail and a $90 RDS, and the RDS shattered after a few shots (which is why I'm buying a brand name next time). However, the rail doesn't use the rungs, it has two studs for each slot. When looking down the rail, it forms a U, and if I put the U around the target's chest...well, you get the picture. So I'm using the sight mount as the sight.

bejay
December 28, 2011, 03:57 PM
you could buy an inexpensive rifle like the m&p sport and modify it to get what you want but, your going to probably be spending alot more by the time you buy a rail and possible tools needed to change it plus whatever ambi controls you change.
you would be better off buying a complete upper with the rail you want already installed like the one below with a YHM or MI rail.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/23938.php
add a complete lower or a stripped lower with lower build kit plus what ambi controls you want and you should be close to what you originally wanted.

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 04:12 PM
I don't think a $40 rail is going to add that much cost to the rifle.

mljdeckard
December 28, 2011, 04:17 PM
Seriously, anything. Go to Brownells.com and order their free AR-15 parts catalog. You can do anything you wan tot any rifle you get.

Captains1911
December 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
Nevernind

bejay
December 28, 2011, 04:30 PM
a 40 dollar rail probably just replaces the stock handguards and no you dont need much maybe this tool some can get the handguards off without it but its not easy. to install a free floating rail you even need more tools.
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/1843.php
the rail options on those upper kits are free floating and should give you the continues upper rail you wanted look up midwest industries and yankee hill machine if you want to know what they cost, plus they get rid of the front sight that will allow you to mount your rds lower on the rail.

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 05:22 PM
Oh, you're right. $61 for a free-float rail.

proven
December 28, 2011, 07:01 PM
i completely understand that red dot sights are faster to get on target. but you're talking ten feet. that's not even all the way across the room in most homes. at that range in a HD situation, you're likely to be in one of two shooting scenarios. you're either waiting behind the door with gun shouldered for when the bad guy breaks in....or you're grabbing it in a fury and making a snap shot. this basically means that you are point shooting. if you can't hit a man-sized target COM from ten feet reliably (even from the hip this would be easy) without a red dot, you have much bigger problems than what kind of ar to buy. in a larger (think 4k sq ft or more) home, for training courses....fine. but really, a red dot isn't even close to necessary to make hits at ten feet.

as far as rifle vs. pistol.....can you keep your ar shouldered (looking through the red dot) and trained on the BG with the light on while you use the cell?

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 07:06 PM
You're right, if I'm already waiting, a red dot is superfluous (but not a disadvantage). If I'm not already sighted in, the red dot offers an advantage. It means that instead of point shooting, I can quickly bring the gun up and get a shot off without lining up perfectly. It has an advantage there.

as far as rifle vs. pistol.....can you keep your ar shouldered (looking through the red dot) and trained on the BG with the light on while you use the cell?

I'd already have my pistol on me, due to using it to get to my long gun. The light can stay on, so I don't need to worry about that once I turn it on. You're also forgetting about all of the hands-free technology that is on the market, meaning I don't need to spend the entire time the BG is inside with my hand on my phone.

2WheelsGood
December 28, 2011, 07:06 PM
can you keep your ar shouldered (looking through the red dot) and trained on the BG with the light on while you use the cell?

Your choice of weapon was decided by whether or not you could hold a BG in your sights while making a phone call?

proven
December 28, 2011, 07:15 PM
no, it wasn't.

google the 21 foot rule. if the guy is ten feet from you, you likely won't have a chance to shoulder a long arm.

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 07:46 PM
That depends on how the guy reacts. Walking into a bright light will most likely cause him to stop and blink.

I also probably wouldn't be able to raise a pistol unless I already had it pointed at the door.

proven
December 28, 2011, 08:10 PM
if someone is intent on doing you harm and within 10 ft of you, good luck with the belief that they'll stop and blink because you shine a light at them.

also, i was referring to you point shooting within 10 feet because you won;'t have time to acquire the sights, regardless of platform.

you've gotten many good suggestions regarding your requirements. you might want to do a little more reading on actual HD situations though.

Al Thompson
December 28, 2011, 09:43 PM
Skribs, the S&W M&P 15 Sport seems good to go. Talked a buddy into buying one, so I'm betting my buddies health and welfare on it. :)

Here's the best price for an Aimpoint I've found. It's set up for a flat top AR.
At that price, I'd grab it even if you don't have the rifle in hand yet.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/9081.php

FWIW, my AR (16 inch mid length) has the RDS and a Surefire G2 mounted in a Viking Tactics mount. Three yards or three hundred yards, it works.

Slip2000 EWL is my lube of choice, Pmags for magazines, 55 grain Ballistic Tips for house use.

Skribs
December 28, 2011, 11:46 PM
if someone is intent on doing you harm and within 10 ft of you, good luck with the belief that they'll stop and blink because you shine a light at them.

Have you taken a surefire to the face when its otherwise almost pitch black?

you've gotten many good suggestions regarding your requirements. you might want to do a little more reading on actual HD situations though.

I've actually done a lot of reading on this forum regarding actual HD situations. Or would you say all of the people on the S&T forums are wrong?

proven
December 29, 2011, 08:41 AM
Have you taken a surefire to the face when its otherwise almost pitch black?


yes, actually i have. i don't think you realize how short of a distance ten feet is. close your eyes and keep barreling towards your target. someone with a knife is going to put you in a world of hurt.

would you say all of the people on the S&T forums are wrong?

haha, no, but nice try. i would say you misinterpret things or don't think things through from all angles, but that's besides the point.

we're off topic. good luck with your purchase.

Pete D.
December 29, 2011, 09:11 AM
Sorry....not really but one has to make the attempt.....I am still hung up on the OPs statement about no real need for better than 100 MOA accuracy.
I realize that just about any AR will provide better accuracy than that but still....doesn't anyone else see a contradiction between no need for better than 100 MOA and the discussion of Red Dot/EoTech sights?
Also....given that the stated purpose of the AR in question is both HD and Plinking......chances are more than likely that the only use that this gun will ever see is the Plinking part. If, in fact, the gun is to be used for plinking as it's primary use, then wouldn't a demand for better accuracy make more sense...unless the plinking will be at large objects very close by? At that rate, a slingshot is way more cost effective.
Pete

2WheelsGood
December 29, 2011, 09:14 AM
I am still hung up on the OPs statement about no real need for better than 100 MOA accuracy.

I took the OP's comment as hyperbole used to emphasize the point that long-range accurace isn't his primary concern. You're reading way too much into it.

Pete D.
December 29, 2011, 09:18 AM
I took the OP's comment as hyperbole used to emphasize the point that long-range accurace isn't his primary concern. You're reading way too much into it.

Yeah, I suppose.
I do take comments made in these threads as if people mean what they say. Alas.
Pete

Skribs
December 29, 2011, 11:58 AM
I did mean that the best accuracy I need at 10 feet to hit a 10" target is 100 MOA, and that I understand that since any AR should easily be 2 MOA or less, that accuracy wasn't my biggest concern. If I hit two inches left of COM...I'm still hitting something important.

The red dot is more for target aquisition than for accuracy. Which is why I'm still debating between EoTech (65 MOA reticle would be easy to see) and Aimpoint (no battery issues).

Tirod
December 29, 2011, 12:33 PM
The HD scenario is mostly fantasy on the internet. In real life, pistols are used, and less than three shots fired.

In real life, they are pounding down the door, or you come home to find it open and hear voices inside.

In real life, you call 911 FIRST - after all, pizza gets there faster - and then you warn the assailant to stop or you will shoot them dead.

In real life, the citizen has no obligation to shout "stop," or waste ammo firing a warning shot, or the other stuff that fills S&T forums as postulated by LEO's who are obligated to respond in a legal manner and escalate force to meet force.

The citizen can simply shoot the dumb perp upon his immediate discovery on your premises. You will like have no time to get, or have in your possession, a long arm. You will have a pistol either CCW or close by, simply because they are much handier. People wear them all day. People with long arms rack them inside buildings, and go without.

I'm not tellling anyone they can't use a long arm, but having served 22 years, MP and Infantry, worked in armed security, and simply reading accounts of home invasions, I LOL at anyone who thinks they are going to handgun their way to the long arm. In most accounts, they shoot the intruder once discovered on the property.

Use a light to ID them, it's completely valid to carry it separate off handed to control where you want them to respond as your center of mass.

The major issue ignored in these fantasy discussions is Why break down your door? Statistics show a number of possibilities, the most likely are: you ripped off your drug lord, stole his girlfriend, or smacked down the gang on the street, and they want revenge. After that, you've been leaving your otherwise suburban home a vacant target with the Xbox, 54" plasma, and new laptop boxes sitting at the curb.

In other words, clueless. Figure out the real problem - moving to a better neighborhood often helps, so does CCW. There's a reason carry licensing has multiplied a decade before the AR15 became a fashionable topic in the Home Defense fantasy theater.

I would strongly encourage anyone who is concerned about home security to actually study it, and spend their money on combatives and armed handgun response. Those are the primary tools you need when physical and behavioral remedies have apparently failed, and some less than normal human still decides to rob you.

Whether you decide to practice Point and Shoot, or use the sights, it is more likely you'll do it with a handgun and be done with it, rather than retreat to a safe room. You as a citizen are NOT obligated to surrender any turf to an intruder. Castle doctrine or not, it's still the primary rule, Better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six.

BCMjUnKiE
December 29, 2011, 12:45 PM
BCM ......www.bravocompanyusa.com get the lower from Grant at G&R Tactical.

Skribs
December 29, 2011, 01:10 PM
Well, Tirod, if I already have a handgun, would you say an AR in addition is a bad idea?

You as a citizen are NOT obligated to surrender any turf to an intruder. Castle doctrine or not, it's still the primary rule, Better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six.

The idea isn't to surrender turf, it's to have a more defensible position. I've always read that clearing a building is very dangerous, while waiting for the assailant from cover is a much safer option.

After that, you've been leaving your otherwise suburban home a vacant target with the Xbox, 54" plasma, and new laptop boxes sitting at the curb.

Lucky for me I live in a condo complex with over 100 families, so who knows which unit bought the plasma that has a box in the dumpster?

I'm not tellling anyone they can't use a long arm, but having served 22 years, MP and Infantry, worked in armed security, and simply reading accounts of home invasions, I LOL at anyone who thinks they are going to handgun their way to the long arm. In most accounts, they shoot the intruder once discovered on the property.

I don't think the idea is actually to fight through hordes of zombies with your handgun to "level up" when you get to your long gun, but rather "I have a handgun at my desk, that I can grab and use should I meet the intruder on the way to my long gun." For me, my handgun is by my bedside, my long gun is in the closet. If the intruder is right there, I'll grab my handgun and use that. If I hear them in the adjacent room, I'd rather grab my long gun and then decide whether to confront them or wait in a defensible position.

kb58
December 29, 2011, 01:28 PM
In addition to the very valid points raised by Tirod, get a dog! Everyone has Internet Delusions of Graduer about how they'll handle the home invasion they're sure is going to happen next week. Things don't have to escalate straight to shooting unless you let it. A dog, not leaving "bust into my house" stuff on the curb, decent locks, and not being a high-value target in general go a long way toward defusing the situation before it begins. There seems to be a strong supply of stories on the Interweb of "okay, if I hear a noise, what best to blow the BG's head off?" There's a lot of other stuff that can be - and should be - prepared before it ever comes to that.

2WheelsGood
December 29, 2011, 01:37 PM
The major issue ignored in these fantasy discussions is Why break down your door?

I don't doubt that statistically this is true. However, I still see stories almost every day of someone breaking into a house while someone is home. Sometimes it scares the intruder off, sometimes it doesn't. So, your statistics aside, the possibility of someone (or multiple someones) breaking into your house while you are home is very real.

mljdeckard
December 29, 2011, 01:39 PM
If the very slight accuracy advantage you get from a free-float rail isn't a concern, you can add a Magpul MOE grip to any standard rifle for like $30.

During the day, yes, I have my pistol on me at all times. But at night, it is just as easy for me to grab my shotgun, and I will start with that.

Skribs
December 29, 2011, 01:42 PM
I love how when someone asks "I'm building a bench and have these screws, what screwdriver should I get?" everyone also pipes up what saw, measuring tape, and lumber they should get, where they should put the bench, and why a bench isn't a good idea compared to lawn chairs.

The question isn't "I want to be safe, so if I get an AR I will never be hurt." It's "What AR should I get for HD." I can understand questioning whether an AR is the best tool (I disagree, but its at least related), but bringing up the dog and the empty boxes has nothing to do with the AR.

I came to the rifle forum to ask about a specific piece of my HD puzzle. I go to the handgun forum to ask about handguns, and the S&T forum to ask what else I can do to be safe. I'm just here looking for a suggestion for a value, reliable AR.

Sidenote: when I clicked on this post, there were 666 people viewing the rifle forum.

2WheelsGood
December 29, 2011, 01:47 PM
I love how when someone asks "I'm building a bench and have these screws, what screwdriver should I get?" everyone also pipes up what saw, measuring tape, and lumber they should get, where they should put the bench, and why a bench isn't a good idea compared to lawn chairs.

At least the irony of someone posting on the internet that you shouldn't believe what you read on the internet should make you smile. :banghead:

robMaine
December 29, 2011, 02:03 PM
Lucky for me I live in a condo complex with over 100 families, so who knows which unit bought the plasma that has a box in the dumpster?


A condo complex implies very close buildings possibly even shared walls, I would not be grabbing a 5.56 rifle as my first option in this scenario....

kb58
December 29, 2011, 02:20 PM
I love how when someone asks "I'm building a bench and have these screws, what screwdriver should I get?" everyone also pipes up what saw, measuring tape, and lumber they should get, where they should put the bench, and why a bench isn't a good idea compared to lawn chairs... but bringing up the dog and the empty boxes has nothing to do with the AR.

Interesting analogy, and here's another. People come on car forums all the time asking "how can I get 500 hp out of my engine?" People then point out that there's a lot more to it than that, because the tranny, suspension, and tires have to be able to handle it. Because they - and you - didn't say what other arrangments you've made, it's completely normal to question what wasn't mentioned up-front. Please don't jump on others just because they don't automatically assume that you're awesome and infallible. Like the post above, commenting on you living in a condo - stuff like that matters but was left out.

Skribs
December 29, 2011, 02:26 PM
A condo complex implies very close buildings possibly even shared walls, I would not be grabbing a 5.56 rifle as my first option in this scenario....

Based on the ballistics I've seen, a 5.56 HD round overpenetrates less than a 12-gauge or a standard handgun round after going through walls, so it's a very GOOD reason to go with a 5.56 over a shotgun/handgun. Reason being that when the bullet is travelling faster, it's easier to engineer how it slows down, and you get more reliable energy dumps.

KB, a more apt analogy would be "I need 500 HP out of my engine" followed by "you only need 500 HP if you're racing or hauling stuff." The answer has nothing to do with HOW to get 500 HP, but rather implies that 500 HP isn't necessary unless you fit the given scenario.
See also: Microsoft tech support.

because they don't automatically assume that you're awesome and infallible
People don't assume I'm awesome and infallible. They know it.
People assume I'm not.
Just kidding.

batmann
December 29, 2011, 02:31 PM
IMHO, probably the best out there at this time is a Bravo Company. Has EVERYTHING except the ambi safety and is built with quality parts. Go to their web site and that will help. There are other AR's out there, but it is hard to beat the BCM for quality.

proven
December 29, 2011, 05:57 PM
the best advice i can give is to buy a plain jane 16"bbl carbine and a case of ammo. you've already admitted that you have very little (if any) rifle experience. so buy a quality carbine and learn to shoot it....at more than ten feet. become comfortable with the operation, do clearance drills, and just plain shoot the heck out of it. THEN, once you are proficient with it in stock form, decide what is necessary for your application and what isn't. same thing with a HD shotgun, learn how to shoot it. you might just find that anything more than a light is just extra weight.

as for brand, you just can't go wrong with a colt, bravo company, lmt.....

BCMjUnKiE
December 29, 2011, 08:04 PM
I second the dog. I have a 84lb. Red nose pitbull that is solid muscle. If you can get by him, good luck. Then it's me you have to deal with which will not end up good.
Get the AR that will work for you best. You just can't beat a BCM.

Zerodefect
December 29, 2011, 08:39 PM
Option 1: Get a BCM USA upper and snap it onto any lower. I usually recommend the BCM USA 14.5" upper, standard barrel, middy gas (high preformance)or carbine gas (reliability with weak ammo), 12" Larue rail, pinned PWS 556 flash comp, and the standard BCM auto bolt carrier group.

Option 2: Get a Colt 6920. Send the upper to ADCO. They can cut the front sight off and install a rail for you. I'd recommend the 12" Larue rail or 13.2" Larue.


You can add a Stag ambi safety, Magpul BAD lever, and BCM large charging handle to any AR to get full ambi control. Magpul XTM covers are nice for your lower and side rails.

Ironicly, even though the Ar15 wasn't originally designed for ambi use, with these simple mods, it works better when used ambi, than most of the newer ambi oriented carbines out there.

Zerodefect
December 29, 2011, 08:45 PM
A condo complex implies very close buildings possibly even shared walls, I would not be grabbing a 5.56 rifle as my first option in this scenario....

In that senerio I prefer the much weaker FN PS90 5.7x28mm carbine.

benzy2
December 29, 2011, 11:18 PM
What I don't understand is if you know all of this about HD how do you not know at least a couple of the "Tier 1" AR rifles to pick from? You know what rails, lights grips, and sights you need but don't have a clue who makes a quality AR. You like the car analogy. It's like knowing who makes good headers, tires, and exhaust but not knowing who makes a good car. Seems odd.

I'll suggest one more thing. Go to the store or shop at your favorite online dealer and buy one. Being in the debating stage does no good when an issue comes through your front door.

Zerodefect
December 29, 2011, 11:42 PM
who makes a quality AR. .

Noveske, Larue, DD, KAC all make exactly what I think the OP is talking about give or take a couple small parts. LMT, BCM (if available) may also have somthing similar.

Most of us just pick out good uppers, often from Larue or BCM, and build our own lowers now.

Skribs
December 30, 2011, 12:37 AM
What I don't understand is if you know all of this about HD how do you not know at least a couple of the "Tier 1" AR rifles to pick from?

Because I've been reading the generic strategy and looking at what I need in a rifle to meet that strategy, and then I found a platform that met what I needed, that platform being the AR. From that point, I wanted to narrow it down to a make and model. S&T doesn't discuss brand so much as they discuss generic "rifle" "long gun" or even "AR".

I know of accessories not just from my search for my AR, but also from when I was setting up my Benelli with accessories. That's when I decided that I want a light for target ID (based on S&T reading), a RDS for target aquisition, among others. I've also handled an AR (dont know the brand) to know that I'm most comfortable holding it with a Magpul AFG.

StrutStopper
December 30, 2011, 02:07 AM
As someone here previously mentioned, you should probably spend an evening reading through some posts on m4carbine.net. Lots of knowledge there from people whose lives depend on the AR platform. Personally, for my first AR, I just picked up a complete upper (less BCG and hand guards) from LMT and a stripped lower and put it together with quality components. I'm glad I went that route. If you want to purchase a kit, PSA has some great deals and quality components from what I hear although I have no personal experience with them. Of course, if you want a complete rifle already built, for your purposes a S&W M&P, Colt, BCM, DD would probably work just fine for you. Of course, adding an aimpoint will probably up the price by 50% but if you want a reliable red dot you get what you pay for.

proven
December 30, 2011, 08:35 AM
skribs, once again, you're putting the cart ahead of the horse. have you ever shot an AR? or any rifle for that matter? how many rounds have you put downrange with your benelli? what works for others may not work for you, and you're talking about changing things on a rifle that you have absolutely no experience with other than holding one and you didn't even know what brand it was. doing research is fine, reading suggestions is fine. but starting with a basic rifle until you learn to handle it well is a much better idea than changing out and adding a bunch of stuff to a rifle platform that you have no experience with. you can't become proficient with a firearm by reading on a forum.

on the other hand, if you just want to be a mall ninja and have a rifle with bells and whistles to shoot once a year at ten feet and show off to your buddies, then by all means, proceed as you have.

marine 97-03
December 30, 2011, 10:20 AM
Well said proven

Tirod
December 30, 2011, 10:21 AM
Read the stats and police reports on home invasions. Most are initiated by the big three - you stole drugs from a dealer, you are sheltering "someone else's" woman, or you prominently display valuables others think they can take from you.

Here's another: Most gun thefts involving B&E occur the following six weeks after showing off a firearm to a "friend of a friend." What many naively assume is admiration is actually casing out what's available to steal. Most of these "friends" have buddied up in the past few weeks and aren't really vetted yet, but enthusiastic about what you have.

Yes, home invasions ARE real, when the druggies and jealous boyfriends are taken out of the equation, then the serial murderers pop up, which are extremely rare. The best defense is to be prepared, and deal with physical security of the property. The last thing you want to do is ask why you opened the door to them, and that's exactly how most get in - the homeowner was "being nice."

"Fight your way to a long arm" is BS - you'd better have it ready every time you open the door. People kicking it in need to be addressed IMMEDIATELY, not after they have barricaded you in a "safe room." Overpenetration works BOTH ways - if they want you dead, they can shoot through the flimsy hollow core doors, or through the sheetrock.

I spent some time in MOUT, one facility was an abandoned office complex where you could work thru existing sheetrock stud walls. It's not hard at all. Anyone who's remodeled will tell you it's the preferred construction technique because it's so easy to tear down. Lathe and plaster is much more difficult - but not impossible. There's one specific reason why tomahawks and breacher bars are carried at the team level - if you can't go thru a door, make one.

Turning your back to retreat to a safe room that isn't armored, literally, also reduces your options of self defense. The perp and target acquisition are no longer the focus at exactly the time when centering the sights on them is required - they have demonstrated intent, and their actions are life threatening.

Just shoot them with your handgun. Again, most homeowners who do respond do exactly that, and less than three shots are fired. Why? The perp decides the risk is now too high for whatever reward, and they leave, if still ambulatory.

Study the big picture instead of myopically focusing on special 1% situations, and take care of the major reasons why someone would even find you or your domicile an easy target. CCW is the real answer to personal self defense 24/7, not trying to outrun the guy to the cool hideout of the tactical HD gun he already saw come from your bedroom. Regaining consciousness from hearing the screams of your significant others locked in with him and his two companions is not what you want to hear while discovering severe trauma that has disabled you. There is NO guarantee you will have the upper hand in the initial assault. That's another one of those annoying little statistics - Joe Perp likes to ambush his victim, it's the preferred method to maintain dominance and reduce injury to himself.

If this 100 unit condo is so dangerous that a rifle is needed as backup to an existing handgun, why is anyone but a victim still living there? For the money, a Uhaul is cheaper. People flee the metros precisely for these reasons.

jlg
December 30, 2011, 11:16 AM
Several people have mentioned these already but I will mention them again...

Smith & Wesson M&P15 Sport
- May be hard to find. They are a good deal and aren't being shipped out in super mass quantities, but they're out there.
- Has a 1:8 twist which will allow you to shoot most any ammo
- Using 5R rifling which is supposedly better than standard rifling...although I don't have any first hand knowledge
- Doesn't have a dust cover or forward assist - neither of which do I believe you need unless you just like the looks of them
- Comes with a MagPul flip up rear sight and a fixed front sight post. If you're using a red dot the front sight post will be in your sight picture. However, if you like to have co-witnessed iron sights this can be a positive thing.

DPMS Oracle
- Much easier to find than the S&W
- 1:9 twist / standard rifling
- flat top, no front sight post, no rear sight - optics ready

IMO, having held both side by side, the S&W looks and feels nicer. The buttstock looks and feels much better on the S&W than the one that comes on the DPMS - if I could get either one and the price was the same I'd take the S&W.

You can easily swap out the standard handguard on either one with carbine length quad rails ($40-100 for good enough - you can spend $200+ on rails but I don't see the need and it sounds like you don't either)

Ambidextrous safety is fairly easy to swap out yourself later

You should be able to find either one for under $650

Skribs
December 30, 2011, 12:50 PM
Tirod, to my back is a 3rd story window, not sure how many people are going to be Mission: Impossible-ing into my room from that direction.

Like I said, I'm not planning on using my handgun to fight through hordes of BGs on the way to my rifle. I'm planning on, if something goes bump in the night, grabbing my handgun from my desk (which is right next to my bed) and going to get the long gun from the safe, which isn't right next to the bed (it's in a less visible location). That way, if the BG pops into my room before I get my long gun, I still got my handgun. Home invasions aren't always because I let someone in - they can also happen because someone broke in while I'm in another room.

have you ever shot an AR? or any rifle for that matter? how many rounds have you put downrange with your benelli?

So because I shot a shotgun first, I should never use a rifle? Or, since I have a shotgun, should I use that even after buying a rifle, and then decide which I want to grab?

And I have used the 9mm and .40 versions of an AR enough to know they're the easiest weapon to shoot that I've used. I just bought the shotgun first because I don't need to find a new range (pistols and shotguns only at the one I go to now) and it was half the price of an AR.

I am smart enough to know that if I don't have enough practice with it, I shouldn't use it. However, if I never get one, I'll probably never practice with it. If I do opt to use the shotgun or the handgun, I still can. I'm not trading in my Benelli for an AR, I'm adding it to the collection. But for some reason you seem to think I only want to have 1 gun and that it's going to collect dust until someone breaks in and I hope I know the MOA by that point. I don't see how you could have such a negative opinion of me simply by the fact that I'm asking for advice on brand names I could look at.

proven
December 30, 2011, 06:43 PM
I don't see how you could have such a negative opinion of me simply by the fact that I'm asking for advice on brand names I could look at.

you're aren't just looking for a brand name to look at. you've stated what you want to rifle to have, what optic you are going to use, how you don't need it to hit anything beyond ten feet, you've posted an article to back up your choice of the rifle in HD over the handgun or shotgun.......all without ever having shot it in the first place.

you've been give plenty of quality brands to consider. add a rifle to your collection and learn to shoot it. it's pretty simple. learn to use the tool before deciding that it's the best one for the job.

Skribs
December 30, 2011, 06:57 PM
you've stated what you want to rifle to have, what optic you are going to use, how you don't need it to hit anything beyond ten feet, you've posted an article to back up your choice of the rifle in HD over the handgun or shotgun

Exactly. My question was "based on the criteria above, what brands would you recommend". My posting of the article was because a lot of people are bashing me for what I want in a rifle. FYI, if you peruse this forum, there are a lot of people who feel the AR15 and the .223 is a great platform. So yes, for my post here, I WAS just looking for a brand name to look at. Because I had already considered the other factors by doing my research in the other areas.

all without ever having shot it in the first place

I may not have shot a .223 before, but I have shot an AR. Once again, I wasn't even asking whether or not to get an AR, but specifically which brand to get. Before I got my handgun I didn't have much experience with one, but I did my research, tested a few, and found one I liked that met my requirements. That's what I'm doing here.

2WheelsGood
December 30, 2011, 07:05 PM
learn to use the tool before deciding that it's the best one for the job.
You don't have to swing a hammer to know it's the best tool for driving a nail. You don't have to drive a car before knowing it's a good way to get from point A to point B. And you don't have to pull the trigger on an AR before you have a pretty good idea what it can do. The original question was absolutely legitimate. Your responses are not.

proven
December 30, 2011, 07:12 PM
neither are your analogies. there are plenty of different hammers, cars, and firearms....and they don't all fill the same role. knowing what something can do is different than knowing it's the best for a certain job. i'm surprised i have to explain this.

the OP has been given many suggestions on reputable brands. i'm simply of the opinion that before you employ something for HD or choose to mod a weapon you should become proficient with it in the first place. no amount of reading or research can do that for you. feel free to disagree, i care not.

proven
December 30, 2011, 07:15 PM
skribs....let us know what rifle you choose based on your research.

cheers

jlg
December 30, 2011, 07:33 PM
This thread is quickly going down in flames.

Why don't we get back to giving the OP suggestions based on first hand knowledge to help him make a wise, researched decision on which AR15 brand / model to buy.

I'd hate for the moderators to lock the thread before the OP was able to get the information he needs.

benzy2
December 31, 2011, 04:53 PM
What info is there left to say? People have covered the budget options that seem to be built well and people have covered the tier 1 options as well. It's time to pick and move on.

kfgk14
December 31, 2011, 06:28 PM
Not interested in building? I'd say you could build to your specs and get a very good rifle for not too much money, but if you aren't interested in building, just buy a Palmetto State Armory 16" mid-length and add the ambi safety and magazine release.

Hacker15E
December 31, 2011, 11:14 PM
starting with a basic rifle until you learn to handle it well is a much better idea than changing out and adding a bunch of stuff to a rifle platform that you have no experience with. you can't become proficient with a firearm by reading on a forum.

on the other hand, if you just want to be a mall ninja and have a rifle with bells and whistles to shoot once a year at ten feet and show off to your buddies, then by all means, proceed as you have.

QFT.

I think the OP -- like many of us -- would be well suited with a basic firearm, a case of ammo, and time spent at the range learning it well and practicing. Knowing your weapon and having a solid foundation in basic marksmanship skills (which, unfortunately, some firearms enthusiasts seem to have ignored or bypassed) is the real cornerstone of being able to defend person or property with a firearm. Those skills are far, far more important than any gadgetry.

People have defended themselves and their property extremely well for a long, long time using firearms without the "benefits" any faddish tacti-cool mall ninja accessories.

sgtstryker
January 1, 2012, 12:10 AM
The Doublestar brand seems good and a good deal. I put a DPMS upper on one of their lowers this year and it performs great. However, I did replace the trigger with a Geissele two-stage. It depends on what you want the rifle to do, as many have said. Good luck, Good shooting.

Skribs
January 1, 2012, 03:09 AM
Can someone explain to me the benefit of training with irons if my plan is to put an RDS on the rifle? Wouldn't it be better to train on an RDS?
It would be like telling someone "oh, you want a Glock? Get a lot of practice with a Ruger LCR so you can shoot good with the Glock."

starting with a basic rifle until you learn to handle it well is a much better idea than changing out and adding a bunch of stuff to a rifle platform that you have no experience with. you can't become proficient with a firearm by reading on a forum.

I said in the OP I have little experience, not no experience.

No, but I can get advice from reading a forum, and luckily I know which advice to follow. I'm not planning on having a rifle that will cook my pizza and call my grandmother on tuesday. I have very specific reasons for wanting what I do...

A red dot for target acquisition (you can say an RDS doesn't help here...but you'd be lying or grossly misinformed). Yes, I have used a pistol caliber AR with the standard A2 sights and with a red dot, so I know first-hand the difference. Yes, irons are just as accurate. Accuracy isn't what I'm trying to improve by getting an RDS.

A Magpul AFG for comfort. Because I've tried both the standard grip and a VFG, and found the AFG to be more comfortable than both. Are you going to tell me that ergonomics is a mall-ninja trait?

A flashlight for target identification. Which is recommended by pretty much anyone. For those who say "how are you going to keep the light on?" please, actually use a weaponlight (I only bring it up because someone mentioned it earlier that I need a spare hand for the light).

I've had several people answer the actual question in this post. To those people: thanks. To those who are going off on tangents that have nothing to do with the OP, and then assuming that because I didn't bring it up in the OP I obviously have no clue what it is: do you feel mighty enough now?

proven
January 1, 2012, 03:33 AM
what will you do if the rds fails? fall back to irons that you've neglected to train with? i, and others are of the opinion that becoming proficient with irons precludes adding other types of sights. you're also talking about ten feet or less. how much faster do you actually think a rds is at that range, in a hd situation? if an assailant is only ten feet away you'll be snap shooting, and you won't be "aiming" anything. JMHO. but then, you already "know what advice to follow". just go buy a rifle already and shoot it.

Skribs
January 1, 2012, 01:56 PM
Actually, it will have a bigger advantage at 10 feet than it will at 300 yards. If I am "snap shooting", why do I need to know how to use irons, either?

what will you do if the rds fails? fall back to irons that you've neglected to train with?

Good point. But I'd still rather practice using the sights cowitness as opposed to by themselves. If the RDS fails, I'm not going to take it off to use the irons, I'm going to use it as a tube that I see my irons through.

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