Out of Round?


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Joshua M. Smith
December 28, 2011, 08:11 AM
Hello,

I load for my Gew88. Cases are formed from .30-06 into 7.92x57J using modified dies. The bullets are 0.318" as that's what my bore slugs at.

I noticed I had several out-of-round loads this last go-around. Don't remember it happening before. Had something like 12 out of 50.

I neck sized last time and so I disassembled the cases to their components and full-length sized five of them. Out of those five, one was still out-of-round.

I'm really not sure what's going on. The press is a Lyman turret -- the older orange one -- and the dies are Lee. I load the 7.62x54R using the same equipment and Lee dies. There are no out-of-round loads for that round.

Since the 7.92x57J is relatively straight wall, should I even be trying to neck size with a full-length sizing die?

What are the causes of out-of-round cases, anyway? I don't think I ever learned that...

Thanks!

Josh

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ranger335v
December 28, 2011, 08:23 AM
I can't guess what you mean, "out of round." Case or loaded cartridge? Where? How much? Or, rather than out of round, do you mean the seated bullets are tilted?

Sapper771
December 28, 2011, 08:27 AM
Are you casting your own bullets ?

Joshua M. Smith
December 28, 2011, 08:30 AM
Hello,

The loaded cartridge.

It looks like the bullets are tilted a bit.

From what I've been reading, it could be that I need to neck size less -- maybe about halfway down instead of to the shoulder -- and some are getting a bit tough to chamber, so I figure most are due for a full resize anyway.

But yes, mostly the bullets are tipped from what I can see. I don't have a gauge and it's not all of them by any means.

Thanks,

Josh

Joshua M. Smith
December 28, 2011, 08:31 AM
Sapper,

No, I prefer to buy jacketed bullets for rifles initially designed for them, and run a bit less than original pressures.

Thanks,

Josh

243winxb
December 28, 2011, 09:10 AM
Since the 7.92x57J is relatively straight wall, should I even be trying to neck size with a full-length sizing die?
No, buy a neck die.

Sapper771
December 28, 2011, 09:13 AM
I think you mean Bullet run out. Out of round is a term often used by bullet casters when a bullet is not perfectly round after being cast from a mold or ran through a sizer.

Blue68f100
December 28, 2011, 09:16 AM
When you full length sized did you check for tilt with the empty brass or did you assemble the components then compared? If assemble make sure your primer is fully seated, you have no ejection marks on the brass to prevent it from setting flat. Are you lubing your expander plug? if not you may have more friction on one side causing it not to stretch even. If this the case it maybe time to anneal the brass again.

With then wall brass it's easy to get things off kilter. How does the tilted rounds chamber?

rcmodel
December 28, 2011, 11:45 AM
I agree it could be the expander plug pulling the necks off-center.

Try very lightly lubing the necks with a nylon bore brush & case lube.

rc

Joshua M. Smith
December 28, 2011, 07:34 PM
Hello,

Looks like neck runout may have been the correct term. Sorry!

I do lube the expander a bit, but only by leaving a bit of lube near the case mouth. (I use homemade wax lube that works very well for me; mostly just beeswax and olive oil, so it will sit there).

I've read that it might be a good idea to bump the shoulder back by about a thousandth. Is this correct? Will it shorten case live to any appreciable degree?

One thing I got to thinking of too, is that the die is a regular .323 die with a .318 sizing rod. Could this be exacerbating the situation?

Some of the necks were so out-of-round that they were impossible to chamber, but the others chambered with some effort. Most of the others I did chamber just fine.

Thanks!

Josh

rcmodel
December 28, 2011, 07:50 PM
but only by leaving a bit of lube near the case mouthThats not doing much good.

The expander plug probably doesn't touch it on the way in the unsized neck.

And it's on the wrong end of the neck to lube the expander on the way back out after sizing.

I'd suggest a nylon bore brush rolled on a lube pad or spritzed lightly with spray case lube.

Clean the necks with it before resizing and they will pick a touch of lube in all the right places to do something.

rc

res7s
December 28, 2011, 08:20 PM
Joshua, put some small lead shot in cup. Push the necks down in the shot and give it a twist. The graphite in the shot should lube the neck. You will need to add powdered graphite if the shot doesn't have enough to do the job.

One thing that usually works is to seat the bullet a little. Lower the ram and spin the case. Seat the bullet a little more and repeat.

If that doesn't help, size the case, turn the case 180 degrees and size it again.

Blue68f100
December 28, 2011, 08:48 PM
On the rounds that did not chamber, did you tray chambering them after rotating them? Normally this will allow you to chamber them. May take several attempts to get it chambered.

As far as bumping shoulder you only need to move it back 0.002"-0.003". This will minimize over working the brass. Even if your loading for a auto, bumping back the shoulder as little as possible will get you longer bras life. I have started using the RCBS X-Die for my auto. The poor mans way is to start with the sizing die about 1/2 turn off of the shell plate. Size the brass and see if it chamber without resistance. If not turn the sizing die down in 1/16" turns or less till the shoulder moves. 1/16" turn is just over 0.004", so you can see it will not take much once you start the bumping. I use the Precision Mic to measure the shoulder since I load for 2 different guns the same caliber. I use spacer shims under the locking ring to make the adj between guns.

Hummer70
December 28, 2011, 08:49 PM
You only need to have you case mouth .002" smaller than the bullet you are going to seat into it. Any more and you are overworking the case neck. Bumping back shoulder .001" is ideal as well.
Also military cases are not necessarily even thickness all the way around. US Match ammo allows for .005" neck wall variation and ball ammo .007" variation.

Joshua M. Smith
December 29, 2011, 01:24 AM
Hi Folks,

I'm embarrassed to report that I've found the problem.

I got to looking hard at my equipment and found that the seating die was backed out too far to center the case before seating the bullet. I screwed the seating die back in and voila! fixed.

I do not know how it got this way. Probably the criminals will never be caught and "who" is an answer to a question that won't ever be asked.

I know of nobody who has a grudge against my reloading equipment, nor anyone who even knows how to use it. Could be it was me. Haven't used that die in a while...

One more question, if I may: When forming brass and full-length resizing with the Lee sizing die, the bolt does get a bit hard to close, only it feels like I'm pressing against the case shoulder.

After firing and partial or neck sizing, it's not hard to close at all. Not as springy.

When I trim, nothing ever comes off.

Would it be possible that I have a larger diameter chamber that's just a little short? Remember, this is a model 1888 that was made in 1892, so it's still operating off the original specs (save for the "S" modification which opened the throat to take 0.323" bullets. I still shoot 0.318" because that's what the barrel slugs at and I've heard some horror stories about the Turks in WWI using the new S bullet loading in these).

Thanks for all your help thus far. Loading for this rifle has been challenge, but very much worth it!

Regards,

Josh

res7s
December 29, 2011, 06:27 AM
A forming die takes into account the "spring back" of the brass. It's made slightly smaller/tighter than a sizing die. The Lee sizing die isn't a true forming die. Cases form in it will be slightly larger and will have a tighter fit in your chamber. When you fireform the brass it fixes the "oversize" condition.

Blue68f100
December 29, 2011, 03:35 PM
Generally if your doing some forming it's a good idea to anneal before and afterwards. The use of a good sizing wax like Imperial Sizing Wax will make the task easier.

Joshua M. Smith
December 30, 2011, 03:39 AM
A forming die takes into account the "spring back" of the brass. It's made slightly smaller/tighter than a sizing die. The Lee sizing die isn't a true forming die. Cases form in it will be slightly larger and will have a tighter fit in your chamber. When you fireform the brass it fixes the "oversize" condition.

Hi Res,

Will you expound on this statement? You lost me on the "forming" and "resizing" parts. I've only heard of resizing dies.

Thanks!

Josh

x_wrench
December 30, 2011, 09:05 AM
i had that problem using an actual neck sizing die with my 300 win mag. it turned out that the die itself was defective. weird, as it was from one of the most popular brands of reloading equipment. once i contacted them, sent a few pictures, the sent me a new die right away. that was the end of the trouble. i am not saying that is your problem, but it is possible.

Blue68f100
December 30, 2011, 09:40 AM
Joshua,

Basicly forming dies are dies used to change 1 caliber to something different. Example would be 308 to a 243. As you know the cases are the same except for the neck size. This is how the wildcats are made. Someone wonders " What if ....."

Sizing dies just take the fired case to it's original size.

Joshua M. Smith
December 30, 2011, 10:11 AM
Thanks X Wrench and Blue!

Blue, that's interesting. I never knew there were different forming dies.

I'll have to Google that.

Regards,

Josh

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