35 Mag ????


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waverace
December 29, 2011, 06:59 AM
Have a chance to buy a rifle that is stamped 35 mag on the barrel , even the seller doesnt know exactly what caliber it is .
I managed to find one reference to a 35 magnum on an RCBS caliber list that I found online but not a single other reference anywhere , I'm thinking that its probably a 350 remington mag or maybe a 35 ackley magnum either of which I can find or make ammo for , I'm no stranger to loading for wildcats .
Has anybody heard of or had experience with this vague caliber description before , any information would be much appreciated .:confused:

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StrawHat
December 29, 2011, 08:00 AM
Ackley, Whelen, Remington, H&H, Rigby, practically everyone had a 35 Magnum of some sort. Until you do a chamber cast and compare it to measuements of cartridges, you are not going to know what you have.

Dies for some of the "exotics" can be expensive.

waverace
December 29, 2011, 08:14 AM
Thats my plan if I get the rifle , also by the bolt face , action length , whether it is belted or not these are all factors which will narrow it down , was just hoping someone had seen the basic marking "35 mag" before.

powell&hyde
December 29, 2011, 09:32 AM
Yes I have seen those markings before on a 35 G&H (Griffin and Howe) magnum rifle, the gun was made in the earlier part of the 1900's and was stamped on the left side of the barrel "35 Magnum". The rifle that I mentioned is owned by my FIL and it also has 24" barrel with folding sights. If indeed the rifle you are looking at is a 35 G&H magnum, it is one rare firearm.

waverace
December 29, 2011, 09:36 AM
so what was the actual caliber ? 35 G&H ? the rifle is built on an old american enfield action , so it might well be

powell&hyde
December 29, 2011, 10:40 AM
Yes the caliber is 35 G&H, we make the brass from full size 300 H&H mag cases and have the dies to neck up to .358 caliber. BTW, FIL rifle is built on a magnum mauser action with a french stock.

waverace
December 29, 2011, 10:43 AM
ok sounds good , well im going to try and get the rifle and then we will see , fingers crossed

waverace
January 5, 2012, 06:29 PM
Well I won the rifle, just sent off payment and my local dealers. FFL so just a case of waiting for it to arrive I will update as I have more info

waverace
January 16, 2012, 01:48 AM
Well I got the rifle today , looking at the chamber it doesnt appear to have a magnum belt but does seem to be a rimmed case , threw a 35 whelan case in to see the fit and it rattles around like a .223 in a 30-06 chamber so whatever it is its huge !! I have ordered a pack of cerrosafe so that I can do an accurate chamber casting and take measurements , this is gonna be fun :D

waverace
January 16, 2012, 04:07 AM
just doing some rough sizing the rim measures about the same as a .303 british at .053-.054 overall case length is about 2.70-2.71 base to shoulder is approx 2.25-2.30 diameter at base approx .50 bore diameter at muzzle is .35 .

Obviously I will get much better measurements once I have a casting , but until then if anyone has a book on old cartridges that they could find something close it would be really appreciated .
Its about the size of a 350 no2 rigby , but if it is that why is it stamped 35 mag. ?

powell&hyde
January 16, 2012, 08:51 AM
The dimensions you give are very similar to the 350 Rimless magnum (Rigby), dimensions for the 350 Rigby is:

Bullet Dia: .357
Neck Dia: .380
Shoulder Dia: .443
Base Dia: .519
Rim Dia: .525
Case Length 2.74"

The above was taken from COTW 3rd edition.

alsaqr
January 16, 2012, 09:52 AM
The old .35 Newton case does not have a belt. The three rifles i've seen in this caliber were made by Newton.

Pictures.

powell&hyde
January 24, 2012, 06:58 PM
What did you find out?

waverace
February 4, 2012, 06:08 PM
Now have a stick of cerrosafe so will hopefully do a chamber cast tonight

waverace
February 6, 2012, 04:33 AM
OK so i did a chamber cast ....

What I have is as follows ;

neck .391 dia by .422 length
shoulder .498 dia
base .514 dia
mag belt .535 dia
main body length 2.16 from bottom of shoulder to top of belt
case overall length 2.85 approx from case mouth to guessed base, rimmed part sits outside of chamber so was not cast

The closest I can find to these dimensions is the .358 STA (shooting times alaskan)

Only problems that I have with that is that this is an old gun and the STA was developed in 1992 plus why was it not marked that caliber ? so anyone have any more ideas ?
Im pretty sure its not the G&H the shoulders too broad and its too long to be a norma or remington magnum did weatherby make a .35 magnum ? case dimensions are the same except the neck for the .375 weatherby mag... if anyones got a spare case or loaded cartridge from an STA that they are willing to part with for me to check against it would be appreciated I would of course return it after the measuring process if needed , I know these big cartridges are not cheap or easy to come by .
all in all im still not 100% sure .

waverace
February 6, 2012, 05:22 AM
heres a scan of the cast with a 7mm mag. a 35 whelan and a 30-06 as comparison

303tom
February 6, 2012, 12:43 PM
I would say you have a .350 Remington Magnum.............

LeonCarr
February 6, 2012, 01:00 PM
Looks longer than the .350 Remington Magnum if the case right below it is a 7mm Remington Magnum. Maybe a .35-.338 Winchester Magnum?

Please be sure you know what the cartridge is before you start loading ammo :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

303tom
February 6, 2012, 01:30 PM
By his measurements if he measured pretty close looks darn near right to me.

His measurements--------------------- .350 Rem. Mag.
Neck .391----------------------------- .388 + or - .003
Shoulder .498------------------------- .495 + or - .003
Base .514----------------------------- .513 + or - .001
Belt/Rim .535-------------------------- .532 + or - .003
Case Length 2.85---------------------- 2.80
Case Length he Guessed, so looks darn close to me........But I don`t know if I would go out & spend 60 buck on a box just to see if it fits.

waverace
February 6, 2012, 01:41 PM
case length on a .350 rem mag is 2.17 , overall cartridge length including the bullet is 2.80..... just the case on this is as long as the entire loaded cartridge on a rem mag , I did a little more than guess the rim protrusion I measured the length of the 7mm rem mag rim from the belt and added that to my case length , bolt face is the same as a 7mm rem mag .

waverace
February 6, 2012, 01:44 PM
after doing some more research I have found that the A square company makes 358 STA on enfield 1917 conversions , this one doesnt look like any of their current offerings but it could be an early one or a customer special its completely glass bedded like theirs and the case looks identical , ill contact them and see if they ever marked their barrels in this way .

waverace
February 6, 2012, 01:45 PM
heres the rifle

powell&hyde
February 6, 2012, 01:52 PM
Dimensions are similar to the old 375 wby mag. hmm

303tom
February 6, 2012, 03:04 PM
case length on a .350 rem mag is 2.17 , overall cartridge length including the bullet is 2.80..... just the case on this is as long as the entire loaded cartridge on a rem mag , I did a little more than guess the rim protrusion I measured the length of the 7mm rem mag rim from the belt and added that to my case length , bolt face is the same as a 7mm rem mag .
You are right my mistake, well I think we can pretty much say it is a H&H Magnum Case.............

powell&hyde
February 9, 2012, 03:57 PM
Boy waverace, you sure know to keep us all in suspense. ;)

waverace
February 9, 2012, 05:50 PM
I work away from home for weeks at a time and only have my cell to check email so doing heavy research has to wait till I get home, I sent an email via my cell to A square but im not sure if it sent so ill try again from My PC next week

waverace
February 18, 2012, 04:53 PM
OK so its not a 358 sta, I ordered a couple of rounds to test against my chamber cast and ultimately to test in the rifle, well they arrived today and the shoulder on the sta is about an eighth of an inch further forward than my chamber cast, I tried it in the Rifle just in case my casting had shrunk but it wont chamber with reasonable force and I dont want to unreasonably force a live round that big or that expensive.
so its the same size all round as an sta but 1/8" shorter on the shoulder.
Pics to follow when I get home to my PC
:banghead:

waverace
February 18, 2012, 10:38 PM
so here are a couple of comparison pics between the 358 STA and my 35 mag. the other round is a 30-06 for comparison also the caliber stamp as it is stamped on my barrel

waverace
February 18, 2012, 10:44 PM
As you can see the STA is pretty darn close , measurements are identical except for the distance from belt to shoulder

powell&hyde
February 19, 2012, 06:55 AM
Your post from previous page..
OK so i did a chamber cast ....

What I have is as follows ;

neck .391 dia by .422 length
shoulder .498 dia
base .514 dia
mag belt .535 dia
main body length 2.16 from bottom of shoulder to top of belt
case overall length 2.85 approx from case mouth to guessed base, rimmed part sits outside of chamber so was not cast

Dimensions of 35 Ackley Magnum Improved.
Neck .389" dia
Shoulder .490" dia
Base .513" dia
Mag Belt .532" dia
Case length to shoulder 2.26"
Case overall length 2.81"
Shoulder length .080"
Neck length .400"
Shoulder angle deg 36.20

waverace
February 19, 2012, 07:16 AM
That one was the only one on my left over short list couldnt find the info or pics on it though so thank you

waverace
February 19, 2012, 08:44 AM
remeasuring the cast those measurements are pretty darn close but the length to shoulder would be just too short , my casting falls right in the middle of the measurements between the ack mag imp and the sta at 2.33 now having said that the AI would fit and fire form beautifully , midway sells the dies and im guessing a 375 h&h would work as a parent case to neck down , I'll have to see if I can stretch the overtime this next month and shell out for that .

35 ackley imp mag length to shoulder 2.26
my casting " " 2.33
.358 STA " " 2.43

powell&hyde
February 19, 2012, 11:14 AM
hmm, 0.007" difference. I'll look through my books later this afternoon and see if there is anything close to them dimensions. In the mean time, here is a scan with the 35 Ackley Improved so you can check the rest of the dimensions.

Steven Mace
February 19, 2012, 11:21 AM
waverace, your dimensions sure seem like you have a .350 Mashburn Super Magnum cartridge.

Steve

powell&hyde
February 19, 2012, 01:19 PM
The 350 Mashburn SM has a shoulder dia of .475".

waverace
February 19, 2012, 06:03 PM
Thanks for the scan , yeah its all so close , if the scan picture is accurate mine seems to have a sharper shoulder almost like a gibbs style I think I am going to have to find some way of making a cartridge that fits which I think the ai will ,and fire form it ,then send the cases to someone to get a custom set of dies made , this is gonna be an expensive way to do things though , the ai dies are 150 bucks and a custom die is probably gonna run me the same or more also none of that brass is cheap ... the things we do for love lol :)

waverace
February 19, 2012, 06:54 PM
Just as an interesting note , as I mentioned this rifle is based on a 1917 enfield action apart from the ears being ground off to make a scope base there are no other alterations the reciever still has all the factory tooling marks from the reciever manufacture , I own several p14 and no4 enfields so I know what a "factory grade " reciever looks like , the work to grind off the ears is much finer . Now the interesting thing is there is no serial number anywhere else on the rifle and nowhere to show that it had been ground off , now i know that the one on top front of the reciever is where was ground off for the scope base profile , but no number on the bolt , trigger guard , barrel ? kinda wierd so now I hear you say "ah but the barrel is aftermarket" well is it ? on the left side of the reciever is as I would expect a flaming bomb arsenal stamp but also on the end of the barrel just behind the front sight slot is first a "W" makes me think winchester then a flaming bomb then what looks like "I-18" tried to take a picture but its so shallow it didnt really come out , now I dont personally know of any military rifles that were ever chambered in a .35 caliber round , colonel whelen had the idea for the .35 whelan which was realised by howe of griffin and howe who then went on to make the 350 g&h magnum .
I am pretty sure from the other stamps "vp" in a circle "35" right by another "vp" and the "35 Mag." all in the same font as well as the overall patina which matches the rifle more of a brown blue than a blue blue that the barrel is if not original to the action then it is the same era , the mag box has been welded with straight side plates to accept the bigger round also the front part of the trigger guard has been extended also for the bigger round its all a mystery , to get the juices flowing it is wonderful to imagine that this was some kind of early military sniper project maybe ran by colonel whelan himself although I doubt it , Im thinking that it is probably a gunsmith that made his own tooling and made something that resembled the ackley AI and then probably made his own dies to go with it , But I dont know and I probably never will , most people from that era are now passed on and without some hard documented evidence it will never come to light.

powell&hyde
February 20, 2012, 06:36 AM
Interesting, the "W" is Winchester and the "vp" stamp is what winchester used when the rifle was viewed proofed. This meant the gun had been visually inspected as well as gauged and had been proof fired. Does this rifle have a butt-plate? Sometimes they put the serial or assembly number under the butt-plate. I also never heard of the military using 35 caliber rifles.

waverace
February 20, 2012, 01:01 PM
just a rubber butt pad , stock is not a military stock

waverace
February 26, 2012, 12:18 PM
So heres the latest , I pulled the bullet and emptied the powder on a couple of the STA rounds and using the camming action of the bolt "chamber formed" a couple of the rounds , then I reloaded them I will hopefully get a chance to fire them later today , but first my friend and I are off to the gun show today so I will ask around there and see if anyone recognises it or has any other ideas .the picture shows the original STA plus the newly formed 35 mag. case .
Also I wrote to RCBS asking about the dimensions on their 350 AI magnum improved dies and they wouldnt give me the info but said that if I sent them 5 fired cases or the chamber cast that they would make sure the dies worked .

powell&hyde
February 26, 2012, 02:47 PM
Looking at the pics says the case on the right is looking more like a AI chamber due to the sharp angle.

waverace
February 27, 2012, 01:54 AM
I agree so I will probably go ahead and get the AI dies no one at the gun show had a clue today but I did buy some 340 weatherby magnum cases to use as parent cases they are almost identical apart from the bullet diameter if weatherby had made a 358 magnum this is how it would have looked so just need the dies to size up the neck , also shot the two rounds I made up today , not so fearsome as I thought it would be , actually kind of fun to shoot .

waverace
February 27, 2012, 04:38 AM
so on doing some more research found another newer cartridge called the 358-378 rg (real guns) which is pretty close also in the 40s a company called the hollywood gun shop made a 358-378 weatherby magnum which was very similar but had sharper shoulders this one sounds like it would fit the bill perfectly if anyone can help me find some info on it , cant find anything yet other than a wiki reference .

powell&hyde
February 27, 2012, 05:54 AM
I found a couple of links that may help you.

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar31.htm

http://www.realguns.com/loads/358378.htm

waverace
February 27, 2012, 06:44 AM
Yes indeed thats where my latest round of thinking came from but thank you for that, I need to do some more measuring to be sure and I've already sent an email to ch4d to enquire about custom dies they already have the RG dies in stock but they should be able to make just about anything.

waverace
February 6, 2013, 04:09 PM
Well I still dont have a definitive answer as to what the official title of my cartridge is but I did find another rifle for sale advertised as a 35/340 weatherby magnum which for all purposes fits the description seeing as I've been making my rounds now from the 340 weatherby cases , I tried to get a hold of the buyer and the seller but no luck yet . also found another post on greybeards forum of a guy that found a 35mag on a springfield action so I'm joining over there to see if I can learn more about that one .
As to my rifle , I have now made a few rounds out of 340 weatherby brass as I've said , I necked them up using a tapered expander in my 45/70 die then neck tensioned them in my 9mm die before loading and seating with a 45/70 seater die a roundabout route but it works , started out with low 358 norma magnum loads and have worked up slowly from there to a point where I now need a new scope with a longer eye relief , yes its begining to kick :uhoh: , accuracy has been mediocre so far 4 inches at 100 yds but a lot of that is me not being able to get right down behind the scope and flinching each shot :banghead:, this will hopefully improve once I have the new scope on and I am not so concerned about breaking my eye socket , as for power ,on metal gongs at my range its making them swing good where a .308 doesnt even make them budge so I am inclined to think that they are hitting hard .

Jim K
February 9, 2013, 03:04 AM
I don't have any answers as to the caliber, but the barrel WAS .30-'06. It is a Winchester barrel from a Model 1917. The date looks like 1-18 or January 1918. So whoever converted it to .35 anything rebored and re-rifled the barrel.

Jim

waverace
February 9, 2013, 06:56 AM
seems like a lot of work to rebore a barrel but anything is possible , thanks

Jim Watson
February 9, 2013, 08:25 AM
Once upon a time there was not the availability of barrel blanks that there is now.
Reboring was less expensive, relative to the cost of a new barrel, than it is now.
Now if you want a rebore to something odd or to preserve original markings, it will cost a good deal of money, so is not as common.

waverace
February 9, 2013, 10:14 AM
That makes sense , I guess back in the day there were many more skilled gunsmiths that could actually do that kind of work not just the AR assemblers of today:rolleyes:

waverace
May 24, 2014, 06:55 AM
Mystery is now completely solved , it is definitely a 35 Ackley magnum 40 deg ,the larger of the two that Ackley made .
So the only other thing that can get me excited now apart from shooting it , is that any normal gunsmith would stamp "35 Ackley mag" or something similar on the barrel so which gunsmith would stamp simply 35 mag ? .....
Maybe the original gunsmith that wouldn't name a cartridge after himself ?

I don't know but if anyone else has ever seen an original Ackley made by the man himself please let me know how he stamped his barrels .

paulruger
May 25, 2014, 08:51 AM
Do a chamber cast with cerrosafe!

waverace
May 25, 2014, 02:41 PM
Thanks for the tip paul , but if you read the entire thread you will see that this was done a long time ago , I have been shooting this rifle for a while now and reloading successfully for it , the only thing that was still in question was the actual nomenclature or given name for the round and the provenance of the rifle itself .

waverace
May 25, 2014, 03:15 PM
As you can see from the pictures , I now have the appropriate dies , which came with a chamber cast of the dies then theres my chamber cast , a fired and reloaded round from my rifle then finally a chamber reamer that I had the good fortune to find on sale at Midway , so now I can make another :D

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