Sub gauge Inserts 12 gauge to .22LR


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BlownAway
December 30, 2011, 01:32 AM
Has anyone used one of these 12 gauge to .22 LR adapters? I saw a video last week on you tube by Dave Canterbury the co host of Discovery Channels Dual Survivor Shooting this adapter. I will post a link below to the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_f7C4ogORs

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TurtlePhish
December 30, 2011, 01:37 AM
Don't get one if you own a 12ga flare gun. ATF sees that as constructive intent of a DD.

Tinpig
December 30, 2011, 02:04 AM
Not 12 ga to .22 but I do have a 20 ga to .410 insert:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc91/ccanhamjr/Guns/NEF20.jpg

I use it a lot in my NEF 20, and it's great. I wouldn't have thought that what amounts to a 3" barrel with the .22 would give you that much accuracy, but it seemed to work pretty well in the video. Wonder if they make it in 20 ga to .22?

Tinpig

o Unforgiven o
December 30, 2011, 02:11 AM
Don't get one if you own a 12ga flare gun. ATF sees that as constructive intent of a DD.

Really? Because that makes about as much sense as owning a flare gun and 12 gauge ammo. If you have an opinion letter on this or a case you could cite that would be great.

T Bran
December 30, 2011, 02:18 AM
Pretty neat little thing thanks for the link.
T

OARNGESI
December 30, 2011, 02:27 AM
that looks like it would be really easy to make

Patriotme
December 30, 2011, 07:20 AM
Very cool. So how much was it?

o Unforgiven o
December 30, 2011, 07:25 AM
Here is the link from the youtube description.

http://www.gunadapters.com/

303tom
December 30, 2011, 09:42 AM
I use adapters/inserts a lot & I love em...........allows me to take one firearm to the woods & several different rounds.

Noah
December 30, 2011, 11:33 AM
Cool. Might have to get some for my single shot 12s and 20s.

DM~
December 30, 2011, 12:59 PM
Is that guy supose to be an expert on survival???

IF he is, where has he been? Those adapters have been around since the 70's that i know of, i bought some of them back then. Some of the words he uses makes him sound like he's not very kmowlegable on guns/ammo...

I've still got several different adapters/sub chamberes, that are used for different purposes, although they may fire OK, may even be fairly accurate, but it doesn't mean you will beable to hit anything with them.

They have to be made fit into many different guns chambers, so that means a bit of a slop fit, and that means they don't always shoot to the same place.

They are fun, but don't always work as good as i would want.

The ONLY insert, adapter that's made that WILL really do the job, are the Krieghoff insert bbls! They are VERY accurate, once properly installed the first time around, they can be sighted in for that gun and always come back to zero when removed/reinstalled!

I have a few of them, and they are EXCELLENT! They also are expensive, and a bit difficult to get.

BTW, someone should tell that guy, bbl. length doesn't have much to do with the actual accuracy. 1-1/2", 2" snubbie revolvers can and are VERY accurate, they are just a bit hard to shoot. (read short sight radius)

DM

TwoWheelFiend
December 30, 2011, 01:11 PM
i have a 12 ga to .38 / .357 adapter. there nifty but kinda useless

RevolvingGarbage
December 30, 2011, 01:41 PM
I think I need a pair of those 16 gauge to .45Colt/.410 adapters...

And the 16 gauge to .22lr...

And hell the 16 gauge to .44 mag sounds fun too!

TurtlePhish
December 30, 2011, 02:18 PM
[QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtlePhish
Don't get one if you own a 12ga flare gun. ATF sees that as constructive intent of a DD.
Really? Because that makes about as much sense as owning a flare gun and 12 gauge ammo. If you have an opinion letter on this or a case you could cite that would be great./QUOTE]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#flare-inserts

Be careful. You might need to register a flare gun as a DD if you own one.

TurtlePhish
December 30, 2011, 02:32 PM
AOW, my mistake.

Zoogster
December 30, 2011, 02:39 PM
TurtlePhish said: Be careful. You might need to register a flare gun as a DD if you own one.

While it could be a problem, I would think the same logic would ultimately apply as has been used by the SCOTUS before.
For example in the Thompson case they said if there was a legal possible use for the short barrels like when assembling a pistol, then it could not be presumed their purpose was to assemble an unregistered short barreled long gun by installing them on stocked guns they could fit on.
So just possession of a short barrel and a stocked firearm that could use it was not proof that someone possessed a short barreled rifle, as long as there was a pistol or legal pistol configuration that could make use of the short barrel.
If the person has a legal use for the item, ie they have a 12 gauge shotgun that is not a flare launcher, then a 12 gauge insert could not be presumed for use in a 12 gauge flare gun just because they own a 12 gauge flare gun. Unless there is additional evidence the person used or intended to use it in the flare gun and not the shotgun.
This is not legal advice but simply how it should be interpreted based on prior cases.


Now if the insert is in a caliber obviously intended for use in the flare gun, like say a 38mm-12 gauge conversion, then clearly its purpose is not for use in a legal firearm, but in a 38mm bore diameter launcher, and the resulting firearm will still have a bore over .50 and so the ATF gets their discretion to consider it a Destructive Device.
Or if the person does not own a 12 gauge shotgun but does own a 12 gauge flare launcher then an insert for a 12 gauge in their possession has no legal use (better not sell your shotgun and forget you have them) and may be presumed for illegal purposes even absent additional evidence.
If a person is walking around or traveling with a 12 gauge insert and a 12 gauge flare pistol, even if they have a 12 gauge shotgun at home it may be reasonable to assume their intention was not to legally use it with the shotgun at home, but illegally with the flare pistol that is present. (A jury would get to make that call.)

Many of the stocked flare guns are also well below the minimum 16-18 inch barrel requirement, or 26" overall length. So if intended or used with actual ammo they could be considered unregistered short barreled shotguns/rifles as well when possessed or used with an insert.
While a flare launcher pistol with an unrifled insert would also be an AOW because it would be a smoothbore pistol.

However if the final characteristics do not fit an NFA item, and the overall bore diameter is under .50, then it is just creating a title 1 firearm which anyone can legally do.
So a flare launcher pistol possessed with a rifled insert that shot a projectile below .50 bore diameter would presumably be legal, as the combination would only result in a title 1 rifled pistol, which most unprohibited persons can legally create.
I still wouldn't play that close to the edge, as those who enforce the law are not lawyers and you may still end up in court trying to convince a jury, a jury that are themselves not firearm experts and are confused trying to understand it all.

TurtlePhish
January 2, 2012, 09:00 PM
Sorry for the late(ish) reply;
According to that ATF link I posted, any flare gun possessed with an ammunition insert is an AOW, with the single exemption of 25mm to 12ga adapters. Honestly, I don't see how putting in a .22lr insert into a flare gun is any different from going and making a legal title 1 .22lr pistol from scratch, but it's the ATF, so who knows where their logic came from.

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