Light loads and SEE?


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andym79
December 30, 2011, 01:43 AM
Sorry to keep asking silly questions like this but, do Red Dot, Green Dot, Blue Dot, Bullseye, 2400, H4227 or unique pose a risk of Secondary Explosive Effect in very light loads? Are they position sensitive? Do you think a squib is much more likely than SEE?

I refer to loads of loads like this Red dot 5.5grns 170grn RNFP .30-30 between 1000 - 1024fps!
Green Dot as above 6grns, Blue Dot as above 8.0grns!
Bullseye " 5.5grns
2400 " 8grns
H4227 " 10grns
Unique " 9grns

I am petrified of SEE!

Thanks.

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35 Whelen
December 30, 2011, 03:49 AM
In a word, NO, they're not. I've fired literally thousands of cast bullet rifle loads with Red Dot (one of my favorites), Bullseye, Unique, 2400, AA#7, SR4759, AA5744 and IMR4198 in cartridges such as .308 Win., 303 Brit, 30-40 Krag, 30-06, and most of all the 7.5x55mm. Never, ever a single problem or even a hint of a problem.
I can't speak for Green Dot or Blue Dot, but the powders I mentioned above are all very position INsensitive.

35W

andym79
December 30, 2011, 04:53 AM
Do you use fillers?

Walkalong
December 30, 2011, 07:38 AM
Do you think a squib is much more likely than SEE?
Around 1000% (Just a WAG) more likely.

If you want to check for powder position sensitivity with your load, shoot a cylinder full over the chrono with the powder back against the primer. (Muzzle to the sky, ease down level and shoot) Then do the opposite (Muzzle down, ease it up, shoot) and see what velocities you get and what kind of burn you get. Sometimes it can be tremendously different.

Make sure all bullets exit the barrel. You can easily stick a bullet this way. Plated or jacketed are MUCH easier to stick than lead, and will show bigger differences PB & PF than lead.

If you are still concerned about it, use a case full of Trail Boss. (Fill to base of bullet) Lots of fun, clean, and safe.

35 Whelen
December 30, 2011, 09:30 AM
Nope, no fillers.

35W

res45
December 30, 2011, 11:24 AM
andym79 there are no silly questions when it comes to reloading,it's the questions that you don't ask that usually get you into trouble. You need to pick yourself up a copy of the Lyman Cast bullet manual. Both #3 & #4 have lots of load data using fast to med. fast burning powders with cast bullets as well as several traditional powders you would normally see used with jacketed bullet but work with cast as well. The #3 manual will cover loads using Lyman molds only while the newer #4 manual covers Lyman as well as selected molds made by Lee,Saeco and I believe RCBS as well I've just been looking through my buddies copy and comparing date before I buy my own copy.

With powders like Alliant 2400,Red Dot and Unique which are my most commonly used powders for cast bullet rifle loads and there are many more that work as well I stick with the listed data and don't use any fillers and have never had any issues with any rifle I use them in which are 7.62 x 39 & 54r,300 Sav. and 30-30,they all have produce very accurate and economical loads.

Squib and SEE loads can be caused by many things,poor reloading practices as in not paying attention to what your doing or malfunctions with your loading equipment that you don't notice. And last but not least using the wrong type powder and the listed load data with it for the type cartridge your putting together.

rcmodel
December 30, 2011, 12:42 PM
See this about SEE:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6976324&postcount=2

It is a non factor with fast burning pistol powders.

As everyone said, a stuck bullet is the thing you need to worry about if you go below recommended Starting loads for whatever reason.

Handguns that blow up with light charges of fast power blow up because of double charges getting in a case by negligence on the part of the reloader.

rc

andym79
December 30, 2011, 02:59 PM
I am really starting to think to myself, for light loads trail boss is the way to go.
It has such a low density that the case will be 70-100% full, theoretically removing any chance of SEE!

andym79
December 30, 2011, 04:01 PM
After a little more research into burn rates and density, Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, H4198 and H48955 don't seem so great as subsonic loads!

Where as International, Unique and Universal would appear better suited, but not ideal, having significantly slower burn rates than these powders:

5. Alliant Bullseye 9.398
8 Alliant Red Dot 7.077
14 Hodgdon Clays 6.8408
18 Trailboss 3.046
25 Alliant Green Dot 7.924

With the exception of Bullseye, All of these powder are bulky, Trailboss especially so. I find myself thinking that Trailboss and Red Dot, and possibly Clays, are probably the best choices!

Galil5.56
December 30, 2011, 04:14 PM
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Galil5.56
December 30, 2011, 04:42 PM
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andym79
December 30, 2011, 05:08 PM
Clays/AS50N for quite a few calibers, in actual use IC/AS50N applies its pressure curve very much like Clays, and MUCH faster than Unique, even more so than Bullseye despite what charts may lead you to believe. This is especially noted in typical pistol cartridges, where the chronograph would show just how "peaky" it can be with very small increments, and seems to go hyper exponential with anticipated pressures above 20k psi.

So are you saying avoid Clays because it can develop very high pressure at a certain threshold?

Lost Sheep
December 30, 2011, 05:17 PM
Around 1000% (Just a WAG) more likely.

If you want to check for powder position sensitivity with your load, shoot a cylinder full over the chrono with the powder back against the primer. (Muzzle to the sky, ease down level and shoot) Then do the opposite (Muzzle down, ease it up, shoot) and see what velocities you get and what kind of burn you get. Sometimes it can be tremendously different.

Make sure all bullets exit the barrel. You can easily stick a bullet this way. Plated or jacketed are MUCH easier to stick than lead, and will show bigger differences PB & PF than lead.

If you are still concerned about it, use a case full of Trail Boss. (Fill to base of bullet) Lots of fun, clean, and safe.
What I have heard as standard procedure with Trail Boss is to mark the inside of the case at where the base of the bullet will be when it is seated. Fill the case with Trail Boss to that spot (and up to this point, Walkalong and I are in perfect agreement) and then weigh that powder charge and calculate 70% of that weight. Use that charge of T.B. as a starting charge. If you want more power, increase the charge weight, observing your brass and gun for overpressure.

T.B.'s maker recommends strongly against ever compressing a charge of Trail Boss.

Walkalong, I respect your experience (having read your posts many many times). Omitting the 70% starting surprized me.

Lost Sheep

Galil5.56
December 30, 2011, 06:25 PM
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jerkface11
December 30, 2011, 08:00 PM
If you blow your gun up with a fast powder it's either because you stuck a bullet or you used too much of it.

Walkalong
December 30, 2011, 09:36 PM
Walkalong, I respect your experience (having read your posts many many times). Omitting the 70% starting surprized me.

Lost Sheep
Trail Boss can do strange things in pistol calibers with plated or jacketed bullets when not at 100% load density. (It loves lead though.)

After that experience, I have only loaded rifle calibers and jacketed bullets using 101% load density. I settle the powder just a hair with a little (A little!) jiggle to get my level.

I would be interested if someone tested a 70% density load with lead or jacketed in a rifle caliber.

Shoot a few powder back against the primer, and then shoot a few with the powder against the bullet.

I did that with 4.1 Grs of TB in .32-20 with a 100 Gr plated bullet and stragly enough with the powder against the bullet I got consistent velocities in the 800's, but when I shot it powder against the primer, it would go bang, bang, poot, bang, poot, poot, bang. The bangs were 800+ and the poots were 300+.

Tried it twice with the same results. Very strange. Normally the velocity drops when the powder is against the bullet away from the primer. 99% of powders anyway. Solo 1250 gave more velocity PF vs PB. Most drop velocity by 100 to 300 FPS, and sometimes more using plated or jacketed bullets. Lead does much beter.

Lost Sheep
December 30, 2011, 10:18 PM
Trail Boss can do strange things in pistol calibers with plated or jacketed bullets when not at 100% load density. (It loves lead though.)

After that experience, I have only loaded rifle calibers and jacketed bullets using 101% load density. I settle the powder just a hair with a little (A little!) jiggle to get my level.

I would be interested if someone tested a 70% density load with lead or jacketed in a rifle caliber.

Shoot a few powder back against the primer, and then shoot a few with the powder against the bullet.

I did that with 4.1 Grs of TB in .32-20 with a 100 Gr plated bullet and stragly enough with the powder against the bullet I got consistent velocities in the 800's, but when I shot it powder against the primer, it would go bang, bang, poot, bang, poot, poot, bang. The bangs were 800+ and the poots were 300+.

Tried it twice with the same results. Very strange. Normally the velocity drops when the powder is against the bullet away from the primer. 99% of powders anyway. Solo 1250 gave more velocity PF vs PB. Most drop velocity by 100 to 300 FPS, and sometimes more using plated or jacketed bullets. Lead does much beter.
I will consider that. Your results surprise me. I have observed the velocity reductions you describe when using small charges of fast powders in large cases. Even Trail Boss (Unique and Bullseye, too). Getting a HUGE reduction in velocity when the powder is against the primer end of the case has me puzzled (and a little nervous, too). What kind of primers? My first thought is that you were using standard primers with a weak flame that got muffled by the pile of powder, if that is even possible and/or small flash hole.

You have got me puzzled, but I am afraid I do not have the knowledge to figure it out with certainty.

Good food for thought.

Lost Sheep

Walkalong
December 31, 2011, 09:51 AM
I was puzzled as well. It did not do that with a lesser amount of Trail Boss (Not good numbers, but no near squibs with the powder against the primer), so your theory may be right. They were Winchester small pistol primers. I could redo the load with small rifle primers and see what it does. I believe I will load some just the same, and some with SR primers, and see what happens. AC

Lost Sheep
December 31, 2011, 03:23 PM
I was puzzled as well. It did not do that with a lesser amount of Trail Boss (Not good numbers, but no near squibs with the powder against the primer), so your theory may be right. They were Winchester small pistol primers. I could redo the load with small rifle primers and see what it does. I believe I will load some just the same, and some with SR primers, and see what happens. AC
Would magnum pistol primers be a better choice for a test of my theory?

Lost Sheep
December 31, 2011, 03:36 PM
I re-read the OP and have a thought.

SEE and Squibs are alike in that they can create the same results, but they are as unlike as you can get, in that they have COMPLETELY different causes.

SEE is caused by highly unpredictable factors of chemistry and physics. A squib is cause by the loader just making a blunder.

Put another way. I cannot guarantee SEE. I can guarantee a squib.

No need to be petrified of either. While SEE cannot be produced at will, it CAN be prevented at will. Follow good loading practices and be 100% assiduous and you will be as safe as shooting factory ammo (probably safer).

No need to be petrified of either. SEE is like an accident - jet engine falling on your house, but more preventable. A squib is like an accident - shooting yourself in the foot or hitting your thumb with a hammer.

Lost Sheep

Walkalong
December 31, 2011, 10:08 PM
Would magnum pistol primers be a better choice for a test of my theory?
Don't have any, and I do not know which is stronger, small pistol mag or standard small rifle. I do have small rifle mag primers. I'll try them.

rcmodel
December 31, 2011, 10:30 PM
I would be interested if someone tested a 70% density load with lead or jacketed in a rifle caliber.Handloader did a couple of years ago.

What they found out was, the 70% starting load was so slow in most rifle calibers that the bullets would not stabilize and even sometimes key-holed.

They said the best accuracy in about every caliber they tested was loaded to the base of the seated bullet.

They did not say to skip the starting load work up in so many words.

But they might as well have said it.

rc

ArchAngelCD
December 31, 2011, 11:26 PM
After a little more research into burn rates and density, Blue Dot, 2400, 4227, H4198 and H48955 don't seem so great as subsonic loads!

Where as International, Unique and Universal would appear better suited, but not ideal, having significantly slower burn rates than these powders:
International is not recommended for use in anything but shotshells. It's reported to spike pressures easily. Universal is one thing but don't use International.

Galil5.56
January 1, 2012, 09:25 AM
Some "Cowboy" loads= ADI and ADI developed data from Hodgdon using International/HS50N.

Duckdog
January 1, 2012, 10:29 AM
I use some of those powders in reduced loads for cast and have had zero problems. I do not use filler, either. By and large, I use Unique the most for reduced loads with excellent results. As you probably know, stay with the published loads for Unique and you'll be fine. You got some good advice over on the Cast Boolits boards. Most of us over there use reduced loads extensively.

One of the Lee manuals also goes into what your worried about.

Walkalong
January 1, 2012, 10:33 AM
Handloader did a couple of years ago.

What they found out was, the 70% starting load was so slow in most rifle calibers that the bullets would not stabilize and even sometimes key-holed.

They said the best accuracy in about every caliber they tested was loaded to the base of the seated bullet.

They did not say to skip the starting load work up in so many words.

But they might as well have said it.

rc

I believe it. I bet they also found a 70% fill was erratic. A full case full is still pretty slow. Works great, but is nothing more than a light plinking load unless it is a really big case and a heavy bullet. A case full (100% load density. Powder loaded to bottom of bullet.) under a 350 jacketed bullet in .458 Win Mag gives me just short of 1200 FPS, which is around .44 Mag power, but just a little poot in a near 9 Lb rifle. ES & SD numbers are not particularly good.

I am beginning to think you can't hurt yourself with Trail Boss at 100% load density without compressing the powder more than 1%. (That is NOT a suggestion to start going around filling cases full of it while ignoring data)

I loaded two .357 cases with Trail Boss at 101% load density (Well over the data!), under an X-Treme 158 Gr SWC using a WSP primer. I shot them yesterday at 65 degrees. One one went poot, and gave 517 FPS, the other gave a little bigger poot, and gave 681 FPS.

My advise with Trail Boss and pistol calibers is to stick to lead bullets. I keep trying it with plated, and it keeps telling me to stop.

Rifle calibers? Use 100% load density with no more than 1% compression..

As always, use proven data in load books and PDF's put out by the powder companies. Any experimentation on your part could lead to damage to you or your firearms, or worse.

918v
January 1, 2012, 12:39 PM
Load it full of Trail Boss and forgetaboutit.

ArchAngelCD
January 2, 2012, 02:01 AM
I agree, use Trailboss and you are done. It was designed to fill large black powder cases and you can't get enough in the case to damage anything. (just don't compress the load) Velocity will be low like black powder and usually accuracy is good too.

andym79
January 2, 2012, 05:04 AM
Since my last post I have obtained a couple of Lyman books. Whilst unique is well used for cast bullets in .30-30, the accuracy at the velocities I am looking at don't seem to be too good! Red Dot at 6.5grns seems promising, low velocity, minimal recoil and report excellent groups at 50 yards!

Is filler necessary for Red Dot?

Also from what I read Trailboss gives good groups, so I am considering an 8grn load of that!

Walkalong
January 2, 2012, 10:17 AM
Also from what I read Trailboss gives good groups, so I am considering an 8grn load of that!
13 to 13.5 Grs is a full case loaded to the base of the bullet in .30-30.

8 Grs is well under 70% of that, and 70% is as low as IMR reccomends (http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf). Load the case full to the base of the bullet. Velocity will still be low. 1200ish

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