Feral Hogs & Wild Boars


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Loyalist Dave
December 31, 2011, 01:34 PM
Folks, pardon my ignorance, but I remember being taught that a Wild Boar was different than a domestic species of hog that got loose and became a Wild Hog or a Feral Hog. In a recent discussion on another forum the opening of the thread asked about hunting Wild Boar with a handgun. Many of the folks referred to their having killed a wild hog with a .44 special, and took a negative view of my suggestion that if the guide where the thread-starter was going to hunt told him a .357 magnum wasn't adequate for wild boar, then a .44 special or a .45 Colt might not be good either. My suggestion was due to my information that Wild Boar was a bit tougher animal to penetrate than a wild hog.

So are they anatomically sufficiently different to warrant my cautious suggestion, or am I misinformed? :confused:

LD

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Big Bad Bob
December 31, 2011, 03:19 PM
There is a difference in a Russian Boar, and a feral hog genetically, however feral pigs often interbreed with wild boar, producing descendants similar in appearance to wild boar; these can then be difficult to distinguish from natural or introduced true wild boar. The characterization of populations as feral pig, escaped domestic pig or wild boar is usually decided by where the animals are encountered and what is known of their history.

In hunting pigs, with .357 or .44 special the question would be the size of the animal not the species. There is an old guy down from my inlaws who shoots pigs on his place with a .22 Mag, he shoots them behind the ear or so he claims.

Its all about shot placement.

jmorris
December 31, 2011, 03:24 PM
In a trap a .22 is fine. I know guys that use dogs and horses along with .357 pistols. I tend to go with something larger as I have yet to overkill one.

MCgunner
December 31, 2011, 03:27 PM
I've taken wild boar with the .357. They're not bullet proof. You're not going to stop with eith an errant shot from a .500 S&W magnum. But, they're certainly not bullet proof. I've never shot a boar much over 200 lbs, don't even want 'em if they're that big. I shoot 'em for the freezer. But, if you're shooting 'em because of the nuisance, heck, my wife's uncle kills 'em regularly with a .22 rifle. If they don't die on the spot, they'll die shortly. He goes for head shots, but he really don't care so long as they die eventually. Me, I kill most of mine with head shots in a hog trap. But, I've taken a couple with the .357 using 165 grain cast SWC. Longest shot was 60 yards with a .357 Blackhawk shooting a 180 Hornady XTP over 13.8 grains AA#9 at 1400+ fps MV. That was a 150 lb boar, DRT.

.357's a lot more gun than most seem to think. I do load a hot .45 Colt for my 4 5/8" stainless Blackhawk that I used to carry when I went pig sticking with a local fellow using dogs. Never had to use the gun, was there "just in case". We used a fillet knife to cut the hog's throat. He had a good catch dog and they were further immobilized by picking up their hind feet. But, at danger close range, I kinda wanted a bit more bullet/caliber for the job than my .45ACP or even my .357 magnums. I have gotten to old to chase hogs all night like that, so when I HUNT hogs, I mostly stand hunt anymore. they can't climb a 12 foot tripod stand. :D Of course, I mostly shoot 'em with a rifle/spot light when I do hunt 'em. I've bored with that, though, and just let the trap to the work, mostly. It keeps me well stocked in hog meat.

BTW, my little place is not too far from the SW corner of the Powderhorn Ranch. All the hogs in the area come from those stocked from a San Antonio Zoo back in the 30s, pure European stock. They're fugly. :D

http://books.google.com/books?id=rh0LmDWdEI4C&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=powderhorn+ranch+wild+hogs&source=bl&ots=VZEWWsiSpM&sig=C4DQicn2jsjHWb5Z7GQlhunDzqA&hl=en&ei=SuzaToiIBYTM2AWU84DbDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=powderhorn%20ranch%20wild%20hogs&f=false

A small one taken with my carry of the day, 3" .357 magnum Taurus M66 from about 15 yards. DRT

http://i50.tinypic.com/1zzj2g3.jpg

One trapped last month, shot with a 9x19 Kel Tec P11 in the head. He was between 150 and 200 lbs on the hoof.

http://oi44.tinypic.com/bhkbi1.jpg

Anyway, this is what true European boar look like.

Big Bad Bob
December 31, 2011, 03:57 PM
those are the real deal there, most of the hogs in our area have euro boar stock as well, back in the 80s before it was made illegal to import in South Carolina, a guy imported something like 400 black russian boar to his hunting plantation, well hurricane hugo knocked down his fences and his herd escaped and the rest is history. Not that this caused all of our hog problems, South Carolina has a long history with the wild hog.

T Bran
December 31, 2011, 04:48 PM
The hogs I do battle with are a mix of domestic breeds and European Swine. Kinda funny a litter will have some mixed color piglets and some brown striped ones. Some are long legged while others are long of body and rather low slung [ my favorites longer backstraps ] one thing they have in common is they get big pretty quickly. One batch I snared the sow and the piglets were staying near by but ran off as we approached they were maybe 20 lbs. I caught them on a feeder camera a month later they had about doubled in size. Must be all the corn folks are putting out this time of year and I feed year round as well.
They are not hard to kill as some would have you think. I use a .22 lr pump to dispatch everything in the snares. As with all things shot placement is key the off switch is located behind the ear in the spine. I do carry a side arm but have not needed it yet even for hogs in the 300lb range. I will admit questioning my self as to the wisdom of shooting the first big one with the .22 but it was pop flop so I dont sweat it any more.
My ammo of choice is Aguilla SSS .22lr 60grain bullets.
Please dont misunderstand me if you shoot them in the wrong place with even the best of the pistol calibers they will eat your lunch.
Good hunting
Troy

308win
December 31, 2011, 05:28 PM
Man, those things have snout on them that would do Jimmy Durante proud!

MCgunner
December 31, 2011, 05:31 PM
Here's a site I went to after listening to this PhD biologist on the Michael Berry show on KTRH yesterday afternoon driving home from a dove hunt. He was interesting.

http://feralhogs.tamu.edu/

irondavy
December 31, 2011, 06:11 PM
Here in central Tex most of the hogs seem to be of domestic escapee decent. They are not as hairy, with shorter legs and fatter bodies great for eating.
They seem to be just as mean though, had a boar charge the tractor while I was shredding last summer, and I never approach a wounded sow until she gets a second 30-30 round to the head. I seem to have had more trouble with sows that have piglets with them than any other type, boars or otherwise.
Yeah I would feel comfortable with a revolver in any of the calibers that you mentioned .357, 44special. My back up pistol is in .45c and has done the job great. Mostly it gets used to put down a wounded pig up close but I feel very safe standing behind it as I go searching for a wounded hog here in the Texas mesquite thickets.

Hope that helps
ID

PS as others have mentioned shot placement is key you can kill them with most any cal as long as you hit a good vital spot, but the larger cal and hotter load helps make up for me not always being able to shoot from a good position :)

T Bran
December 31, 2011, 06:21 PM
LOYALIST DAVE,
If you havent yet read FLINTNAPPER'S thread on feral hog controll in TX it is a very informative read and quite entertaining as well.
Troy

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 31, 2011, 06:57 PM
Dave, number one, you are correct in one aspect. Wild boar and feral hogs, while heavily related, do have a few anatomical differences. True Wild Boar (Pure European bloodline) will have a longer, slimmer snout than a "Domestic" hog. A cross bred domestic-russian will generally have a heavier coat of fur and long bristled hair along the top of it's neck and back, giving it the name 'Razor Back". It will also have generally longer legs and a bit longer in the body. Now, hogs that started out as captives will have shorter snouts, BUT, as time goes by, that snout will eventually lengthen and slim down.

As far as penetration is concerned between the 2, on males there is a "shield" that is basically scar tissue and cartilage that has built up over time from rubbing and fighting. Some tend to over blow the penetrability of this shield. On your older more dominant males that have really built these shields up, they can be very difficult to penetrate. I have pulled several bullets and broadheads from boars from .223 to .45cal that obviously failed to penetrate. These could have been from hunters taking shots too far away or many other factors. One of the MAIN reasons these animals seem so hard to drop is NOT because of that shield. It is because so many people do not really know where the heart lung area truly is on a wild boar. It is much farther forward than on a deer and MUCH smaller. You hit a wild hog dead broadside right behind the shoulder as you would on a deer, then you just liver and gutted a hog. Now a good quarter away presentation right behind the shoulder, in the "pocket" as we call it, will angle that bullet or broadhead right in the boiler room. The ideal shot for a hog is dead center shoulder and about 2 inches from the bottom of the chest on a broadside presentation. Here are a few Anatomy pictures for shot presentations,,,

http://0.tqn.com/d/hunting/1/0/5/H/hog_anatomy.GIF

http://www.xxxtremehogdoggin.com/images/boar_feral_pig_anatomy.jpg

Double Naught Spy
December 31, 2011, 10:01 PM
There is a difference in a Russian Boar, and a feral hog genetically, however feral pigs often interbreed with wild boar, producing descendants similar in appearance to wild boar; these can then be difficult to distinguish from natural or introduced true wild boar.

Yes, sort of like there being a genetic difference between German and western Russian people. There is a genetic difference, but it is extremely small. They are the same species. Domestic hogs have the genetic code for "Russian boars." How is that possible? Simple. European domestic hogs are domesticated from European wild boar, AKA Russian boar.

There are no morphological traits that are deterministic of a hog being a "Russian boar" that can be applied with any level of certainty short of craniometrics and you can't do those on a hog with skin.

Hogs are a very plastic species and vary considerably throughout their population. Hair type and color, tail curl, leg length, body shape, shield development, and euro-teeth are all used, but without any actual science behind them. It is a form of folk taxonomy.

When domestics return to the wild, it doesn't take too many generations for the offspring to resemble the primal stock which looks a lot like wild Russian boar. How ironic. It isn't because they have been breeding with Russian boars.

As far as penetration is concerned between the 2, on males there is a "shield" that is basically scar tissue and cartilage that has built up over time from rubbing and fighting.

I am sorry Freedom Fighter, but the shield is not scar tissue built up from rubbing and fighting. I have watched hogs fight and most of their damage to their opponents is on the chest area where the shield isn't present via upwards thrusts with their tusks. Back in February, you even noted that you never thought it was scar tissue, LOL. If the shield was scar tissue, then the hogs would have scarring all over the shoulders and upper outsides of their backs and generally they don't. I have shot hogs with some thick shields and found their bodies relatively undamaged by what would have to have been extensive fighting to get that much scarring only under the skin, but how it was that they weren't scarred on the exterior of the skin was a problem. They aren't getting shield from rubbing either or they would have shield butts.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=572323&highlight=hog+shield+scar+callus

The traits that people often attribute to being a wild boar or Russian boar are traits that are not necessarily indicative of being wild or Russian. People are very selective in using the traits to identify their kills as being Russian, I have noticed. Most of the people who will tell you about Russian hogs don't even realize they are the same species as our domestic hogs or that domestic hogs came from wild hogs. They have the same geno type (genetic code), but differ in phenotype (expression of genetic code such as visible traits).

Heck, some folks even make up traits...
Check out the Euro-tooth in the following link. It is claimed that this took indicates that the hog is a hybrid between a domestic and a wild hog.
http://www.texasboars.com/articles/aging.html
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm
Chances are that if you shoot an adult hog and the tooth isn't broken off, it will have this tooth. So you much be shooting a hydrid wild/domestic hog, right? You are just shooting some feral hog, but one with real Russian blood. LOL, the claim is totally bogus.

The tooth is present most of the time and is part of the normal dental arcade of the hogs. Like our wisdom teeth, however, the tooth is being lost over time. It is considered a vestigial tooth. See post 27 here...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=450614&page=2&highlight=euro+tooth

Without doing the craniometrics or actual genetic testing, anyone's claims are a hog being more or less "Russian" are as valid an anyone else' claims that it isn't. Funny thing is that you get a lot of people identifying "Russian" hogs who have never actually handled one. The hog I killed can't be claimed to be any more "Russian" than the hog you killed if we are basing our assessments on external visible traits. There is no known correllation between trait frequency or distribution on the body to indicate the level of Russianess" but many hunters will have you believe that there is.

However, if somebody has found any new information to indicate otherwise, I would love to see the study.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 31, 2011, 10:35 PM
DNS, there are just about as many ways to describe that shield and what it is comprised of as there are hogs. Some experts say it's a callous build up over time from rubbing and fighting, others say it's from a hormonal release causing cartilage buildup, still others say it's from fighting and that it's a mixture of scar tissue and cartilage. No one seems to really know hence why I said basically. I used a general term to describe a specific part of the anatomy and one of the more probable reasons it is there. I do believe Flint properly educated you that it IS possible for them to have this more built up on the shoulder regions, in your own thread that you linked up, from rubbing.

Anywho, hopefully Dave is now a bit less confused on the matter and will not be worried about running in to a true European verses a regular old wild hog. Neither are bullet proof and, with the proper shot placement and within proper range, are easily dispatched with the .357 and above cartridges.

nathan
January 1, 2012, 12:41 AM
The one i killed last Feb has European characteristics, hairy and long snout.Has that razor back hair. It was good eating...


http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Dongha_97/HPIM3845.jpg

irondavy
January 1, 2012, 02:28 AM
I will have to agree with Freedom Fighter, the OP was as to whether or not a .357, 44specaial, or .45 Colt would kill a "hog". And yes it will no matter if it just busted out of a feedlot, or if it is fresh off the boat from Russia.

I think that anything from the .357 on up would be able to pack enough punch. on the other hand I would never use a pistol as my main weapon. My Marlin 30-30 is what always gets the first crack at a hog, if I knock it down but don't kill it the Marlin gets another shot at the head from 25-75 yards, this shot is always the end of a struggling hog.

If I am tracking a wounded hog through the mesquite the .45c always comes out. Usually there is not enough room to swing the Marlin around (short as it is) in a mesquite thicket. At the ranges I can see and effectively engage a target the .45c packs more than enough punch.

Loyalist, get out there shoot some piggies and have fun.
ID

dprice3844444
January 1, 2012, 02:39 AM
nathan,that kinda reminds me of my ex-wife

texas chase
January 1, 2012, 02:50 AM
nathan, nice Enfield

barnetmill
January 1, 2012, 02:57 AM
Supposedly the physical differences for the european wild boars are reduced hams (hindquarters) from domestic pigs. I know the few pigs I have seen in my area are seldom black for hair color and i assume that wild stock european are.

Mp7
January 1, 2012, 05:11 AM
The long snout types shown here are european boar genetics.

Some of the giant hogs i´ve seen shot on THR are definínitley at last mixed with feral pigs.
They do not get THAT big.

And yes there is fine eating on one of those :-)
(Wouldnt go above 80pds though.)

alsaqr
January 1, 2012, 09:29 AM
For years i bought into the tooth thing. DNS set me straight. Not sure why some boar hogs have that shield. This old hog measured 19" through the shoulders:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll268/alsaqr/Osama-1.jpg



i killed this boar in late 2007. He was very old and all his tusks were broken. The hog had a small tag in his ear from a game farm in Bavaria. An OK City man ordered 100 pairs of European boars from a game farm in Germany. He turned them loose all over SW OK. Many of the wild hogs in this area look like wild boars.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll268/alsaqr/Boar25Sep07001Medium.jpg

nathan
January 1, 2012, 12:35 PM
That is a real German import!

95XL883
January 1, 2012, 01:10 PM
Now a good quarter away presentation right behind the shoulder, in the "pocket" as we call it, will angle that bullet or broadhead right in the boiler room. The ideal shot for a hog is dead center shoulder and about 2 inches from the bottom of the chest on a broadside presentation.

FF, thank you for anatomy pic. It's very helpful. Do I understand correctly that hitting the shield at an angle will slightly deflect the bullet? If that is so, even on a direct broadside, shouldn't I also aim a little higher than the heart assuming I will be shooting somewhat downward? Thanks again.

MCgunner
January 1, 2012, 02:36 PM
One cannot predict the path of a bullet in flesh. I figured that out on deer, but it holds for hogs, too.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 1, 2012, 05:24 PM
95XL883, MCgunner pretty much nailed it. Even fur can cause course deflection in bullet paths. In theory, harder, better constructed bullets, that are built for penetration and controlled expansion will take a more direct route through the body as long as you are in the range spectrum for the bullets design. This, for the most part, actually happens but there are times when Murphey's law raises it's head and makes bullets do some funny things. It's why I typically use well constructed bullets and do my best to hunt in the ranges of the particular cartridge/rifle-pistol capabilities.

As far as where to aim, I try to square off in my mind from the mid-line of the body to the center of the shoulder to the middle of the neck. Make a box of that in your mind and pretty much anywhere you hit in there will be a dead shot. Even hogs deserve a clean quick kill (as much as I hate them) as would any animal thats hunted.

Flintknapper
January 1, 2012, 05:38 PM
Someone doesn't know the skeletal structure of a Feral Hog, where did that EXTRA bone come from in the rear leg/pelvis? :confused:

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 1, 2012, 08:26 PM
Someone doesn't know the skeletal structure of a Feral Hog, where did that EXTRA bone come from in the rear leg/pelvis?


LOL not the greatest drawing but it's pretty sufficient on the shootin side. I'll see if I can find a better more precise illustration. :D

95XL883
January 2, 2012, 11:23 AM
MC, FF, thanks for the info. It has been a long time since I hunted anything. As I prepare to hunt again, I'm reading everything I can. I want to put the animal down in as few shots as possible because a.) it's the decent thing to do b.) I will, but don't want to, chase a wounded animal and c.) I'm cheap and at a $+, the 357 supermags from Reed's Ammo are a little pricy to just shoot and hope.

Double Naught Spy
January 2, 2012, 12:24 PM
Someone doesn't know the skeletal structure of a Feral Hog, where did that EXTRA bone come from in the rear leg/pelvis?

The drawing is pretty bad, as noted. I think you are referring to what would be the sacrum's side view. The sacrum is drawn out of proportion. The right half of the pelvis shown is the wrong shape as well. Not only that, but the pig has 2 humeri in his right front leg. You have the upper humerus that attaches to the scapula and the below that you have the lower humerus (in place of the radius and ulna) between the upper humerus and some sort of odd foot bones. On the hind leg, the tibia is bizzarely portrayed and no fibula is shown. The label for "Neck Vertebrae" actually points to the thoracic vertebrae which are not neck vertebrae. The scapula is the wrong shape. Also, the "main vein" is incorrectly depicted as well.

So I have no doubt given all this errors that the depictions of the organs are 100% accurate. ;)

Double Naught Spy
January 3, 2012, 01:53 AM
In looking further at the errant image, I am fairly certain that the organ placement is misrepresented as well.

I think most folks get it from here...
http://hunting.about.com/od/deerbiggame/a/wheretoshoothog.htm
...and the notion of the organs being well forward seems derived from here as well.



The author notes...
Many of the folks running around the woods after hogs are primarily deer hunters, and don't really know just where to shoot a hog to get its vitals. Where are its vitals? We're about to answer that question.
...and goes on to say that the lungs are well forward compared to that of a deer and the image shows the lung just barely extending beyond the scapula toward the rear. I think many folks extrapolate from this statement and the image that the heart is well forward as well and the image seems to indicate this because the heart extends forward beyond the humerus.

The heart really isn't differently located from where it is in the deer. In a standing position with the front feet directly under the pig (neither leg extened as when walking), the heart is located posterior to the humerus, just like in a deer.
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/418779/enlarge
http://www.biographixmedia.com/veterinary/sow-pig-anatomy.html
http://connect.in.com/female-pig/photos-anatomy-of-the-female-pig-1448796755889.html

The lungs also extend further rearward than the strange drawing indicates. The pig's lungs are slightly differently shaped as seen from the side, but not really located further forward.
http://www.edersbow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1764

So I find it interesting that the author is trying to help out hunters who apparently don't know anatomy and yet the image used to indicate the hog's anatomy has so many errors....and it is a really simplified drawing!

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 3, 2012, 04:46 AM
DNS, if you google "Wild Hog shot placement" or Wild Hog anatomy" that is one of the most popular "drawings" out there. I didn't draw it and my skills on a computer pretty much stop at logging in :D . I do know out of the many many many hogs that I have field dressed, the heart lung area, in comparison to a deer, is of course much smaller and in perspective comparison to the position of it between the 2, a hogs is quite a bit further forward than on a deer. If you picture both of the animals together, you can see what most of us mean when we say "shoot further forward than you would on a deer". The next hog you drop, if you do not plan on keeping it, open it up from the side peeling back everything till you can get a clear view of the innards. you will see that the liver is right at the shoulder/scapula and the lungs travel in more of an upward angle than those of a deer. Where a perfect broadside shot would be on a deer would end up being a liver and stomach shot on a hog. I consider a perfect broadside shot on a deer to be right behind the shoulder dead centerline of the body. On a deer, that would center the lungs, on a hog, it would center the liver. I've bow hunted too many hogs to not know this. When you bow hunt, you have to learn these little quirks or you are going to end up tracking a wounded hog and possibly be testing your tree climbing skills. NOT fun!

finnwolf64
January 3, 2012, 06:01 AM
The term wild boar can be used to describe any adult wild male pig. European wild boar have a distinctive look, but are no harder to kill than your average razorback, or other wild hog. A mate of mine is currently working on a mining exploration drilling rig in Slovakia & has sent me photos of the European wild boar he has hunted over there. Although different hunting techniques are used in Europe, he says the European wild boar is similar to stop as a wild hog back home.

Double Naught Spy
January 3, 2012, 01:40 PM
DNS, if you google "Wild Hog shot placement" or Wild Hog anatomy" that is one of the most popular "drawings" out there.

And isn't it a shame that such a popular drawing purporting to be for teaching people anatomy would have so much wrong with it? It may be a popular drawing, but it is really screwed up.

Where a perfect broadside shot would be on a deer would end up being a liver and stomach shot on a hog. I consider a perfect broadside shot on a deer to be right behind the shoulder dead centerline of the body. On a deer, that would center the lungs, on a hog, it would center the liver.

LOL, even with the errant drawing, putting a shot right behind the shoulder blade as you described would still be a fine lung shot.

I have taken apart hogs and I have taken apart deer. I never considered the slight differences to be at all critical for shot placement. I am leaning more toward going with the notion that deer hunters trying to explain away poor shots by blaming the hog's anatomy versus their hunting prowess.

nathan
January 3, 2012, 03:01 PM
If opportunity is there to put down using a headshot , the better. Meat is intact but blood and guts should be removed well.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Dongha_97/HPIM1939.jpg

alsaqr
January 3, 2012, 07:42 PM
This is a better representation of the internal workings of a hog:

http://www.texasboars.com/anatomy.html

Flintknapper
January 8, 2012, 05:25 PM
I use this one:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n92/flintknapper/Anatomy_Reminder.jpg

I keep it posted in my Daughter's Deer/Hog stand as a "reminder" of where to shoot. But...it really doesn't matter to her (where the internals are located), she hasn't shot a hog anywhere other than in the head or neck EVER. ;)

In eleven years...she has never missed a shot or had one take the first step afterward. She is picky about her shots and understands the need to wait for the right opportunity.

788Ham
January 10, 2012, 12:13 AM
dprice3844444,

How, in regards to your ex wife? The long snout, or the coarse hair? Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

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